17:58:04 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #social
17:58:04 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/12/16-social-irc
17:58:05 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
17:58:05 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #social
17:58:07 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be SOCL
17:58:07 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see T&S_SOCWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 2 minutes
17:58:08 <trackbot> Meeting: Social Web Working Group Teleconference
17:58:09 <trackbot> Date: 16 December 2014
18:01:30 <Arnaud> zakim, this is socl
18:01:30 <Zakim> ok, Arnaud; that matches T&S_SOCWG()1:00PM
18:01:36 <eprodrom> Zakim, who's on the call?
18:01:36 <Zakim> On the phone I see jasnell, ??P1, +1.514.554.aaaa, Arnaud
18:01:44 <eprodrom> Zakim, aaaa is me
18:01:44 <Zakim> +eprodrom; got it
18:02:04 <cwebber2> -q
18:02:14 <cwebber2> Zakim, ??P1 is me
18:02:14 <Zakim> +cwebber2; got it
18:02:16 <cwebber2> -q
18:02:26 <Zakim> +??P4
18:02:29 <cwebber2> -q ??P1
18:03:18 <Zakim> +Sandro
18:04:45 <Arnaud> zakim, who's on the phone?
18:04:45 <Zakim> On the phone I see jasnell, cwebber2, eprodrom, Arnaud, rhiaro (muted), Sandro
18:04:50 <Zakim> +??P7
18:04:52 <tantek> zakim, ??p7 is me
18:04:52 <Zakim> +tantek; got it
18:05:01 <tantek> zakim, mute me
18:05:01 <Zakim> tantek should now be muted
18:05:14 <tantek> zakim, unmute me
18:05:15 <Zakim> tantek should no longer be muted
18:05:19 <Zakim> + +1.541.410.aabb
18:05:23 <jasnell> everyone is winding down
18:05:33 <jasnell> brain slowly shutting down for the end of the year
18:05:56 <jasnell> +1 for skipping next week
18:06:27 <cwebber2> +1 on skipping 2 weeks
18:06:31 <jasnell> +1 for skipping two weeks
18:06:55 <tantek> zakim, who is here?
18:06:55 <Zakim> On the phone I see jasnell, cwebber2, eprodrom, Arnaud, rhiaro (muted), Sandro, tantek, +1.541.410.aabb
18:06:58 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, eprodrom, jasnell, tantek, jaywink, bblfish, shepazu, KevinMarks, wilkie, Morbus, Arnaud, pdurbin, cwebber2, JakeHart, mattl, hadleybeeman, bret, bigbluehat,
18:06:58 <Zakim> ... Loqi, nickstenn, oshepherd, rektide_, dwhly, kylewm, rhiaro, jaakko, Tsyesika, jessica_lily, aaronpk, trackbot, sandro, wseltzer
18:07:12 <tantek> who is calling from 541?
18:07:12 <Zakim> +bblfish
18:07:23 <bblfish> hi
18:07:27 <Zakim> +??P10
18:07:32 <tantek> who just joined?
18:07:36 <jessica_lily> me
18:07:41 <jessica_lily> Zakim, ??P10 is me
18:07:41 <Zakim> +jessica_lily; got it
18:07:47 <jessica_lily> Zakim, mute me
18:07:47 <Zakim> jessica_lily should now be muted
18:08:09 <cwebber2> I can scribe if nobody volunteers
18:08:24 <eprodrom> Henry is presenting today
18:08:31 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
18:08:39 <eprodrom> I scribed last week
18:08:41 <wilkie> Zakim, IPcaller is me
18:08:41 <Zakim> +wilkie; got it
18:08:44 <eprodrom> But I can share in the job
18:08:52 <eprodrom> scribenick eprodrom
18:09:04 <eprodrom> TOPIC: Approval of last week's minutes
18:09:10 <jasnell> no objection
18:09:14 <cwebber2> no objections
18:09:29 <eprodrom> RESOLVED: minutes of Dec 9 approved
18:09:35 <eprodrom> TOPIC: when should we meet next?
18:09:42 <eprodrom> Next meeting is the 23rd
18:09:49 <eprodrom> Today is low, next two weeks will be lower
18:09:58 <tantek> +1 for 2015-01-06 for next meeting
18:10:00 <eprodrom> PROPOSED: skip 2 weeks for holidays, next meeting Jan 6
18:10:01 <jasnell> +1 to skipping two weeks
18:10:02 <eprodrom> +1
18:10:05 <bblfish> +1
18:10:06 <jessica_lily> +1 for missing two weeks
18:10:07 <cwebber2> +1 to skipping till jan 6
18:10:25 <eprodrom> RESOLVED: next telecon Jan 6 2015
18:10:29 <wilkie> +1
18:10:44 <eprodrom> TOPIC: schedule on the wiki
18:11:03 <Zakim> - +1.541.410.aabb
18:11:11 <cwebber2> I think having deadlines helps a lot
18:11:13 <eprodrom> elf-pavlik proposes removing dates from #sched section of socialwg wiki pages
18:11:16 <Zakim> + +1.541.410.aacc
18:11:20 <cwebber2> even ones you fall behind on :)
18:11:23 <eprodrom> Arnaud: we have a deadline
18:11:28 <eprodrom> And we need to keep track of what's going on
18:11:31 <jessica_lily> i think deadlines are useful providing they're realistic
18:11:46 <eprodrom> q+
18:11:52 <tantek> who just joined from 541?
18:11:55 <Arnaud> ack eprodrom
18:13:13 <eprodrom> eprodrom: Let's put small number of dates on the schedule
18:13:34 <eprodrom> tantek: let's use the Tracker to keep dates and schedules
18:13:42 <Zakim> +Doug_Schepers
18:13:48 <wilkie> that makes sense
18:14:24 <eprodrom> q+
18:14:42 <tilgovi> tilgovi has joined #social
18:15:10 <Arnaud> ack eprodrom
18:15:33 <Arnaud> ack sandro
18:16:43 <eprodrom> sandro: we have a commitment to the dates on the charter and we need to update the charter if we don't make it
18:17:23 <ShaneHudson> ShaneHudson has joined #social
18:17:42 <tantek> note for the minutes, Milestones from the charter: http://www.w3.org/2013/socialweb/social-wg-charter.html#id-other-deliverables
18:17:49 <eprodrom> Arnaud: we are at risk for running out of runway
18:18:24 <ShaneHudson> Hi all, I've got IRC open but won't be paying too much attention. We are having an issue with water in the lights in my house :( sorry!
18:18:34 <Loqi> aww, cheer up
18:18:58 <eprodrom> tantek: we've missed API and Federation Protocol goals already
18:19:04 <tantek> for FPWD
18:19:12 <eprodrom> tantek: and we need to review as a group
18:21:25 <eprodrom> ACTION eprodrom update schedule to show only milestones for approval on Jan 6
18:21:25 <trackbot> Created ACTION-23 - Update schedule to show only milestones for approval on jan 6 [on Evan Prodromou - due 2014-12-23].
18:23:35 <eprodrom> eprodrom: shoot for 3/15 for FPWD of Social API
18:23:40 <eprodrom> tantek: probably too aggressive
18:23:54 <eprodrom> Arnaud: editor's draft?
18:23:58 <jasnell> we don't necessarily need agreement on approach before getting a first editor's draft proposal
18:24:11 <eprodrom> q+
18:24:13 <Arnaud> http://www.w3.org/Social/track/actions/open
18:24:18 <Arnaud> ack eprodrom
18:24:33 <jasnell> q+
18:25:36 <tantek> zakim, mute me
18:25:36 <Zakim> tantek should now be muted
18:26:47 <eprodrom> https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Social_API/pump.io_API#HTTP_verb_stats
18:26:59 <elf-pavlik> elf-pavlik has joined #social
18:27:22 <tantek> evan is closing 3 actions as done 16, 17, 19
18:27:30 <tantek> advertising action is still open
18:27:43 <tantek> zakim, unmute me
18:27:43 <Zakim> tantek should no longer be muted
18:28:21 <cwebber2> tantek: it says "replaced by" 21 :)
18:28:23 <cwebber2> http://www.w3.org/Social/track/actions/20
18:29:10 <eprodrom> eprodrom: closed Action 16, 17, 19
18:29:22 <eprodrom> Action 20: scheduling for F2F
18:29:23 <trackbot> Error finding '20'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/Social/track/users>.
18:29:36 <eprodrom> Action 20 is about scheduling for F2F
18:29:36 <trackbot> Error finding '20'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/Social/track/users>.
18:29:49 <eprodrom> Action 21 and 20 are closed
18:29:49 <trackbot> Error finding '21'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/Social/track/users>.
18:30:05 <Arnaud> ack jasnell
18:30:08 <tantek> zakim, mute me
18:30:08 <Zakim> tantek should now be muted
18:30:38 <Zakim> -tantek
18:31:14 <eprodrom> jasnell: leaving actions open for IBM connections API
18:31:25 <eprodrom> cwebber2: can you fill in for me for a second?
18:31:43 <cwebber2> eprodrom: yup
18:31:46 <eprodrom> Thanks
18:31:51 <eprodrom> scribenick cwebber2
18:32:19 <cwebber2> there has been work on the activitystreams spec, there is a vocab draft separated from the other draft
18:32:30 <cwebber2> this is Arnaud, right?
18:32:34 <elf-pavlik> s/scribenick /scribenick: /
18:33:06 <cwebber2> there's suggestion maybe there's a requirement between where we draw line between where we explore vocab at large, where we need something we can all rely on
18:33:28 <cwebber2> jasnell: it's pretty straightforward, vocab I've been working on is sum of a most common use cases I could identify
18:33:35 <cwebber2> across wide set of implementations
18:33:58 <cwebber2> I catalogued what are the most common difficulty / artifacts, went back to base schema in AS 1.0
18:34:01 <cwebber2> reconciled with what we have now
18:34:14 <cwebber2> quite a few additional classes, but all represent real world use cases
18:34:30 <cwebber2> main issue I've seen is there are issues with basic structure but with the objects themselves
18:34:36 <cwebber2> some use schema.org, some use something else
18:34:44 <cwebber2> which mean these implementations don't interoperate
18:34:57 <cwebber2> at the very least, the goal is to represent the most common concepts in a basic way
18:35:01 <cwebber2> so we can implement basic interop
18:35:14 <cwebber2> I advocate that we implement those basic terms as part of base vocabulary
18:35:25 <Zakim> +??P7
18:35:28 <tantek> zakim, ??p7 is me
18:35:28 <Zakim> +tantek; got it
18:35:29 <jasnell> jasnell has joined #social
18:35:31 <cwebber2> later if IG wants to define some details, this provides some basic interop
18:35:37 <cwebber2> that's where we're at now
18:35:41 <eprodrom> +q
18:35:46 <cwebber2> is this a WG item or a IG item
18:35:47 <Arnaud> ack jasnell
18:35:50 <Arnaud> ack eprodrom
18:36:04 <cwebber2> eprodrom: yeah, so my basic feeling is this really is part of the working group
18:36:07 <tantek> q+ to say vocab interop is WG item, per charter
18:36:28 <cwebber2> our charter is to create a syntax for social data and I think that the social network info that jasnell has put together is what we need for interop at this level
18:36:44 <cwebber2> if we have 5 different definitions of types for a person or a note or different verbs for following/friendly
18:36:46 <cwebber2> friending
18:36:51 <cwebber2> I don't think that can be called interop
18:37:04 <Arnaud> zakim, who's on the phone?
18:37:04 <Zakim> On the phone I see jasnell, cwebber2, eprodrom, Arnaud, rhiaro (muted), Sandro, bblfish, jessica_lily (muted), wilkie, +1.541.410.aacc, Doug_Schepers, tantek
18:37:06 <cwebber2> what jasnell has done so far is set a solid base for those of us who need to do social data to get started
18:37:16 <Arnaud> ack tantek
18:37:16 <Zakim> tantek, you wanted to say vocab interop is WG item, per charter
18:37:23 <cwebber2> but I have hesitancy to go out the door without some agreed upon vocab
18:37:40 <cwebber2> tantek: I agree with eprodrom, WG needs to agree on interop
18:37:53 <cwebber2> it's something implementers who have a strong say in, rather than the interest group
18:38:01 <cwebber2> so +1 for keeping that
18:38:22 <cwebber2> key is to scope so we can meet succuess: what is minimum subset do we need to meet interop?
18:38:49 <cwebber2> calling out minimum subset because looking at some vocabs seem to have terms and prhases that look like people were making them up
18:38:55 <cwebber2> we need to do some implementer getting heads together
18:39:07 <jasnell> tantek: which has terms that look "made up" to you? that wasn't clear
18:39:10 <cwebber2> what is the minimum interop so that we can do this
18:39:16 <cwebber2> and other stuff can be dropped
18:39:35 <cwebber2> Arnaud: harry is not on call, so I wonder what he would say
18:39:43 <cwebber2> we will have to make this decision
18:39:47 <cwebber2> should we do a formal proposal?
18:39:51 <cwebber2> I seem to hear agreement
18:39:56 <jasnell> +1 on having a proposal
18:40:04 <cwebber2> tantek: if there's agreement, we shoud do proposal, see if there are objections
18:40:11 <eprodrom> scribenick eprodrom
18:40:15 <cwebber2> Arnaud: proposal is to keep working, continue jasnell's efforts
18:40:21 <cwebber2> go for it eprodrom
18:40:34 <tantek> jasnell - *most terms* e.g. most of schema is totally made-up and no-one uses (including Google)
18:40:41 <eprodrom> PROPOSAL: Continue jasnell's effort to do an extended vocabulary for Activity Streams focused on social data
18:40:59 <jasnell> +1
18:40:59 <eprodrom> +1
18:41:05 <wilkie> +1
18:41:07 <cwebber2> +1
18:41:08 <elf-pavlik> 0
18:41:16 <jessica_lily> +1
18:41:47 <eprodrom> jasnell: there are use cases in the wiki, which are what drives the extended vocabulary
18:41:52 <tantek> +1 caveat subsetted for vocab terms that are each *essential* for specific documented use-cases.
18:42:15 <eprodrom> jasnell: if there are parts of the vocabulary that don't depend on it, we can remove
18:42:24 <eprodrom> tantek: we should link every term to a use case
18:42:38 <eprodrom> Arnaud: there are steps in the process that make sure what is in the spec is justified
18:43:18 <eprodrom> RESOLVED: Continue jasnell's effort to do an extended vocabulary for Activity Streams focused on social data
18:43:26 <eprodrom> TOPIC: Linked Data Platform API
18:43:32 <sandro> Let's start tghe Imeplemtnation Report *now*
18:43:35 <bblfish> https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Social_API/LDP
18:43:42 <eprodrom> bblfish will give us a preview
18:44:28 <jeff> jeff has joined #social
18:44:29 <eprodrom> page shows links between resources
18:44:40 <tantek> s/URL/URLs
18:44:43 <eprodrom> On reaching a resource, must know what he can do with the resource
18:45:11 <eprodrom> bblfish: there are namespacing and URL requireements, e.g. TOR
18:45:25 <eprodrom> bblfish: LDP is a simplification and generalization of Atom
18:45:41 <eprodrom> No requirements on format e.g. XML
18:45:51 <eprodrom> Turtle as a default, JSON-LD as a requirement
18:45:58 <eprodrom> Reading a resource is extremely simple
18:46:31 <tantek> zakim, mute me
18:46:31 <Zakim> tantek should now be muted
18:47:00 <eprodrom> JSON-LD results come back if you request it
18:47:14 <eprodrom> What relations would we want on a LDP seed?
18:47:17 <eprodrom> q+
18:47:37 <eprodrom> Can create binary and data resources, POST on container
18:47:49 <eprodrom> Some containers require binding
18:47:54 <eprodrom> Basic container does not do that
18:48:11 <eprodrom> Authentication not included
18:48:15 <eprodrom> LDP Next does include it
18:48:19 <eprodrom> Cert or other authentication
18:48:38 <eprodrom> Binary resources can be posted
18:49:56 <eprodrom> Arnaud: please wait until the end of the discussion for questions
18:49:59 <eprodrom> eprodrom: oops
18:50:09 <eprodrom> Arnaud: "binary" resources can be RDF or not
18:50:30 <eprodrom> bblfish: DELETE is accepted
18:50:36 <eprodrom> bblfish: PUT is also accepted
18:50:43 <Arnaud> s/RDF or not/binary or anything else/
18:51:14 <eprodrom> PATCH is possible but no defined format
18:51:22 <eprodrom> LDP WG is working on a simpler format
18:52:11 <eprodrom> bblfish: spec also included conditional updates, ETags, etc.
18:52:22 <eprodrom> bblfish: LDP Next is next steps
18:52:28 <eprodrom> bblfish: including access control
18:53:05 <eprodrom> bblfish: potential for queries
18:53:20 <eprodrom> bblfish: may use query verb
18:53:45 <eprodrom> bblfish: can invent protocols described by the relations
18:53:52 <eprodrom> bblfish: how to send a friend request?
18:53:58 <eprodrom> bblfish: no email or ask for change to file
18:54:04 <sandro> q+ to explain LDP maturity and next
18:54:04 <eprodrom> bblfish: ping-to relationship
18:54:19 <eprodrom> bblfish: can add new things to the container
18:54:30 <eprodrom> bblfish: in LDP-Next there's a notion of data shapes
18:54:41 <eprodrom> bblfish: restrict the types of shapes in containers
18:54:51 <eprodrom> bblfish: peer-to-peer protocol
18:55:04 <eprodrom> Arnaud: status of LDP
18:55:11 <eprodrom> Arnaud: is now proposed recommendation
18:55:40 <eprodrom> Arnaud: much discussion on what to do next
18:55:51 <eprodrom> Arnaud: working group has decided to ask for an extension of the existing charter
18:56:02 <eprodrom> Arnaud: not to finish but to give everyone time to experiment with what already exists
18:56:15 <Arnaud> ack sandro
18:56:15 <Zakim> sandro, you wanted to explain LDP maturity and next
18:56:35 <cwebber2> bblfish: does LDP specify much as in terms of side effects from incoming data?
18:56:37 <eprodrom> sandro: march or april workshop to discuss next version of LDP
18:56:49 <tantek> q+ to ask what types of social content are people (e.g. presenters) posting on their websites using LDP? notes? articles? events?
18:56:58 <bblfish> so in some sense this Social Web WG would be able to help define what LDP needs next
18:56:59 <eprodrom> sandro: has been working on update controls
18:57:04 <cwebber2> or is the protocol more of a distributed database, which is side-effect agnostic?
18:57:05 <eprodrom> sandro: need real-time updates
18:57:33 <Arnaud> ack eprodrom
18:57:41 <bblfish> 9 implementations of LDP https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/ldpwg/raw-file/default/tests/reports/ldp.html
18:57:54 <tantek> bblfish - are they well deployed?
18:58:17 <Arnaud> ack tantek
18:58:18 <Zakim> tantek, you wanted to ask what types of social content are people (e.g. presenters) posting on their websites using LDP? notes? articles? events?
18:58:21 <bblfish> well if some folks here join, they could be very well deployed :-)
18:58:21 <eprodrom> eprodrom: seems like common patterns
18:58:32 <eprodrom> tantek: what types of content are currently being posted using LDP?
18:58:43 <eprodrom> tantek: are there activity streams types currently being used?
18:59:08 <eprodrom> bblfish: building a blogging engine
18:59:13 <eprodrom> bblfish: mostly FOAF
18:59:24 <eprodrom> http://www.foaf-project.org/
18:59:44 <eprodrom> bblfish: also AS, images, videos
18:59:46 <jasnell> for my personal blog implementation, I'm starting to use LDP. Using Article, Note, Person, Image, Mention, Post, Respond, Like, Dislike so far
18:59:48 <sandro> q+
19:00:21 <eprodrom> jasnell: that's interesting!
19:00:36 <eprodrom> tantek: other examples have real implementations
19:00:44 <eprodrom> tantek: people are posting on their own sites today
19:01:00 <jasnell> hoping to have the implementation ready by the face to face, as well as hopefully be able to switch my personal blog over to self-hosted by then
19:01:02 <Arnaud> ack sandro
19:01:08 <jasnell> will depend on how much time I have to implement it
19:01:18 <eprodrom> sandro: just starting to be implemented
19:01:27 <eprodrom> Arnaud: out of time
19:01:33 <eprodrom> Arnaud: thanks bblfish for presentation
19:01:39 <eprodrom> ditto! Thanks, bblfish!
19:01:58 <eprodrom> Arnaud: thanks all for joining!
19:02:01 <bblfish> thanks !
19:02:03 <Lloyd_Fassett> Lloyd_Fassett has joined #social
19:02:04 <Zakim> -jasnell
19:02:05 <cwebber2> wooo \o/
19:02:08 <wilkie> thanks!
19:02:10 <cwebber2> happy holidaze
19:02:10 <eprodrom> Thanks Arnaud !
19:02:11 <Zakim> -Doug_Schepers
19:02:12 <wilkie> thanks bblfish
19:02:15 <Zakim> -cwebber2
19:02:16 <Zakim> -Sandro
19:02:17 <eprodrom> Enjoy your holidays folks
19:02:17 <Zakim> -bblfish
19:02:18 <Zakim> -Arnaud
19:02:20 <Zakim> -tantek
19:02:20 <jessica_lily> happy holidays!
19:02:20 <cwebber2> and thx for scribing eva
19:02:20 <eprodrom> Good times to hack!
19:02:23 <cwebber2> eprodrom:
19:02:25 <Zakim> -eprodrom
19:02:26 <Zakim> -jessica_lily
19:02:26 <Zakim> -rhiaro
19:02:29 <eprodrom> cwebber2: thanks for covering me
19:02:29 <Zakim> - +1.541.410.aacc
19:02:45 <cwebber2> np
19:02:47 <tantek> thanks everyone.
19:02:54 <Zakim> -wilkie
19:02:55 <Zakim> T&S_SOCWG()1:00PM has ended
19:02:55 <Zakim> Attendees were jasnell, Arnaud, +1.514.554.aaaa, eprodrom, cwebber2, rhiaro, Sandro, tantek, +1.541.410.aabb, bblfish, jessica_lily, wilkie, +1.541.410.aacc, Doug_Schepers
19:03:05 <elf-pavlik> elf-pavlik has changed the topic to:  Social Web WG: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg - Next meeting agenda: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2015-01-06 - logs: http://socialwg.indiewebcamp.com/irc/social/today
19:03:12 <tantek> btw for those in the bay area - the last Homebrew Website Club meetup is tomorrow night @MozSF: https://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-12-17-homebrew-website-club
19:07:07 <Arnaud> RRSAgent, draft minutes
19:07:07 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/12/16-social-minutes.html Arnaud
19:07:13 <Arnaud> trackbot, end meeting
19:07:13 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
19:07:13 <Zakim> sorry, trackbot, I don't know what conference this is
19:07:21 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
19:07:21 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/12/16-social-minutes.html trackbot
19:07:22 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
19:07:22 <RRSAgent> I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2014/12/16-social-actions.rdf :
19:07:22 <RRSAgent> ACTION: 20 to scheduling for F2F [1]
19:07:22 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/12/16-social-irc#T18-29-22