20:27:51 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #svg
20:27:51 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/12/11-svg-irc
20:27:53 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
20:27:53 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #svg
20:27:55 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be GA_SVGWG
20:27:55 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see GA_SVGWG()3:30PM scheduled to start in 3 minutes
20:27:56 <trackbot> Meeting: SVG Working Group Teleconference
20:27:56 <trackbot> Date: 11 December 2014
20:29:37 <Zakim> GA_SVGWG()3:30PM has now started
20:29:43 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
20:30:07 <heycam> Zakim, [ is me
20:30:07 <Zakim> +heycam; got it
20:30:39 <heycam> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2014OctDec/0084.html
20:30:43 <heycam> Chair: Cameron
20:31:29 <heycam> Regrets: Chris
20:32:32 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
20:32:41 <ed> Zakim, [IP is me
20:32:41 <Zakim> +ed; got it
20:33:58 <Zakim> +??P4
20:34:11 <stakagi> zakim, ??P4 is me
20:34:11 <Zakim> +stakagi; got it
20:35:15 <Zakim> +??P5
20:35:20 <nikos> Zakim, ??P5 is me
20:35:20 <Zakim> +nikos; got it
20:35:38 <heycam> Zakim, who is on the call?
20:35:38 <Zakim> On the phone I see heycam, ed, stakagi, nikos
20:35:44 <Zakim> +??P6
20:36:07 <Tav> zakim, ??P6 is me
20:36:07 <Zakim> +Tav; got it
20:36:25 <nikos> Scribe: nikos
20:36:29 <nikos> Scribenick: nikos
20:36:58 <nikos> Topic: Confirming date for June 2015 F2F
20:37:04 <heycam> https://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/F2F/Linkoping_2015
20:37:08 <ed> https://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/F2F/Linkoping_2015
20:37:11 <nikos> ed: wiki page created
20:37:19 <nikos> ... suggest we meet over 4 days
20:37:24 <Zakim> +Doug_Schepers
20:37:26 <nikos> ... 2nd June - 5th June is my suggestion
20:37:49 <nikos> ed: if people would prefer to start on Monday we could do that
20:37:53 <nikos> heycam: dates look ok for me
20:38:00 <nikos> ... looks like CSS are meeting md to late May in US
20:38:04 <nikos> s/md/mid
20:39:13 <nikos> ed: I was talking to a guy at a computer club around here and they might be interested in having a conference night
20:39:22 <nikos> heycam: is it a general computer club or specific?
20:39:38 <nikos> ed: not sure, but probably have connections over Sweden and if we organise with enough notice can send out an invite
20:39:59 <nikos> ed: we've had conference nights before - seems like a good idea to me
20:40:00 <nikos> heycam: agree
20:40:08 <nikos> Topic: GitHub repo mails to www-svg
20:40:23 <nikos> heycam: we changed this a few weeks ago after some discussion
20:40:29 <nikos> ... emails are currently going to the private list
20:40:39 <nikos> ... Chris prefers that they go to www-svg list
20:40:51 <nikos> ... when we discussed this last time, my feeling was that might make the public list too noisy
20:40:57 <nikos> ... but I'd like to hear other opinions
20:41:12 <nikos> shepazu: Are you using Dom's script?
20:41:25 <nikos> ... I believe it lets you target different kinds of message to different lists
20:41:41 <nikos> ... so we could do something like have pull requests go to public list and changes to private?
20:41:53 <nikos> ... I don't think we want all changes and updates going to the public list
20:41:58 <nikos> heycam: that was my initial thought as well
20:42:09 <nikos> ... at the moment we're only sending emails when changes are pushed
20:42:17 <nikos> shepazu: let me talk to Dom and see what his tool can do
20:42:26 <nikos> ... I agree with Chris that feedback should be on public list
20:42:33 <nikos> ... but commit messages are kind of noisy and it might turn people off
20:42:37 <nikos> heycam: yes that's a worry
20:42:50 <nikos> shepazu: I was probably the main advocate for closing public-sv
20:42:59 <nikos> ... we could repurpose instead of closing it down
20:43:18 <nikos> ... to make it a public read/write list and have github messages go there and technical stuff go to www-svg
20:43:56 <nikos> nikos: is it possible to rename it? think it would be good to point out that it's for bot messages and stuff
20:44:04 <nikos> shepazu: don't know if it's possible but we could make a different list
20:44:22 <nikos> heycam: I think we want a list that people can subscribe to but no one (members or public) can post to
20:44:32 <nikos> ... but owners can send administrative stuff to
20:44:41 <nikos> shepazu: let me find out if that's possible
20:44:56 <nikos> heycam: I think it would be good to rename it too
20:45:50 <Zakim> + +1.281.305.aaaa
20:45:53 <nikos> heycam: so I think that's a good solution - if you could look into that
20:45:55 <TabAtkins> zakim, aaaa is me
20:45:55 <Zakim> +TabAtkins; got it
20:46:06 <nikos> ... don't know how hard it is to get just bots posting to the list but we'll see
20:46:18 <nikos> shepazu: I'll get back to you guys with options
20:46:44 <nikos> ... just to be clear - you want a list (say public-svg-logs) that bots can post to, humans can not post to, but humans can subscribe to
20:46:51 <nikos> heycam: yes and perhaps with a reply-to to www-svg
20:47:09 <nikos> Topic: Shutting down public-svg-wg
20:47:13 <nikos> shepazu: I haven't done that yet
20:47:25 <nikos> heycam: I want to see if there's anything left to redirect elsewhere
20:47:46 <nikos> ... tracker already watches the public lists. Think notifications go to public-svg
20:47:53 <nikos> ... so that might be the only thing left to change
20:48:13 <nikos> shepazu: which ml do you want issue messages go to?
20:48:22 <nikos> heycam: the new logs one if we can create that
20:48:48 <nikos> shepazu: I don't know of any other things that need redirecting
20:49:17 <nikos> action: Doug to look at creating public-svg-logs which bots can post to but humans cannot
20:49:17 <trackbot> Created ACTION-3690 - Look at creating public-svg-logs which bots can post to but humans cannot [on Doug Schepers - due 2014-12-18].
20:49:34 <nikos> Topic: SVG Accessibility
20:50:34 <nikos> shepazu: I want to remind anyone interested that the first meeting of the accessibility TF will be tomorrow (Friday) at 9am US eastern time
20:50:34 <nikos> ... svg people are welcome
20:50:34 <nikos> ... it would be useful for svg experts to be there to help inform from their perspective
20:50:39 <Zakim> -nikos
20:50:52 <Zakim> +??P5
20:50:59 <nikos> Zakim, ??P5 is me
20:50:59 <Zakim> +nikos; got it
20:51:07 <jcraig> jcraig has joined #svg
20:51:39 <nikos> shepazu: I will be doing a demo of an svg accessibility tool that I'm writing
20:51:43 <nikos> ... it might be of interest to you guys
20:51:52 <nikos> ... above and beyond the one you saw at TPAC
20:52:16 <nikos> Topic: Spec annotations
20:52:32 <shepazu> http://www.w3.org/TR/2014/WD-annotation-model-20141211/
20:52:40 <nikos> shepazu: I know some of you are interested in annotations in the spec
20:52:46 <nikos> ... This is the first WD of the annotations spec
20:52:52 <shepazu> https://notes.webplatform.org/
20:52:57 <nikos> ... you can create an account and add annotations
20:53:09 <Smailus> Smailus has joined #svg
20:53:13 <nikos> ... if we want to make SVG specs annotatable we can do that
20:53:17 <shepazu> http://www.w3.org/community/spec-annotation/
20:53:17 <nikos> ... there's an annotations CG
20:53:45 <Zakim> +Thomas_Smailus
20:53:58 <nikos> shepazu: have a play and see if it's something we'd like to do with our specs
20:54:07 <nikos> nikos: I think it would be a really good thing to be able to do this to SVG specs
20:54:21 <nikos> shepazu: agree, it's really good for those leaving as well as those resolving the feedback
20:54:37 <nikos> ... it's still experimental but we hope to get it there
20:54:46 <nikos> Topic: Making <use> style inheritance author controllable
20:54:55 <nikos> heycam: this is not something I've thought properly about yet
20:55:11 <nikos> ... but we have a plan to rewrite the use element to use shadow trees to define it's behaviour
20:55:34 <nikos> ... and that's good, but then it means we lose any chance of optimising the implementation to avoid having separate shadow trees in memory for each instance of the thing being used
20:55:39 <shepazu> q+
20:55:43 <nikos> ... so I'm wondering whether we can have an opt-in to a particular use instance
20:55:47 <nikos> ... or maybe on teh thing being used
20:56:03 <nikos> ... to say don't create an explicit shadow tree and cut off the style inheritance that use allows
20:56:07 <nikos> ... that would give a more contained rendering
20:56:17 <nikos> ... that would be a lot easier to replay at different positions on the canvas
20:56:27 <nikos> TabAtkins: I was under the impression that we were defining in terms of shadow trees
20:56:35 <nikos> ... but weren't exposing it - like forms and whatnot
20:56:41 <nikos> heycam: might be, not sure
20:56:54 <nikos> TabAtkins: if it is we can share stuff because we don't need to worry about people poking and changing
20:57:06 <nikos> heycam: I think the style inheritance issue is a difficulty too
20:57:20 <nikos> ... each instance of the use could look different
20:57:32 <nikos> ... makes it hard to have a single cached rendering
20:57:53 <nikos> TabAtkins: however, not that a flag already exists in shadow dom to cut off inheritance
20:57:56 <nikos> s/teh/the/g
20:58:09 <nikos> ... so having an opt-in switch on the use element itself sounds reasonable to me
20:58:18 <nikos> ... it doesn't rely on anything beyond what we already have in the spec
20:58:22 <nikos> ... so shouldn't be a problem
20:58:37 <nikos> shepazu: when we say 'cut off inheritance', are we talking style only or anything?
20:58:49 <nikos> TabAtkins: shadow dom has a flag where styles will not inherit into the tree
20:58:56 <nikos> ... you'll go back to initial styles on the shadow root
20:59:00 <nikos> shepazu: that could get hairy
20:59:09 <nikos> ... is that what you're talking about cam or something deeper?
20:59:14 <nikos> heycam: that's pretty much what I'm talking about
20:59:42 <nikos> shepazu: anything we do needs to be compatible with shadow dom - so that sounds ok
20:59:52 <nikos> ... who's in charge of rewriting in terms of shadow dom?
21:00:01 <nikos> heycam: either me or maybe Tab
21:00:14 <nikos> ed: I did some edits but not finished yet
21:00:32 <nikos> ... we had quite a bit of feedback that we should allow styling of each instance
21:00:41 <nikos> ... so wondering if we should allow css selectors to push through the boundary
21:00:58 <nikos> TabAtkins: if we want to allow exposing shadow tree directly, we could expose it just to css via the deep combinator
21:01:03 <nikos> ed: yeah that's what I'm talking about
21:01:14 <Zakim> -Thomas_Smailus
21:01:24 <nikos> shepazu: what are the performance implications of exposing or disinheriting script access
21:01:32 <richardschwerdtfeger> richardschwerdtfeger has joined #svg
21:01:35 <nikos> ... could you optimise and then flip when you want access?
21:01:44 <nikos> TabAtkins: problem with script is interaction between use and the defining instance
21:02:01 <nikos> ... any time you change defininig instance it needs to carry over to use instances
21:02:20 <nikos> ... it's difficult to track everything and manage memory
21:02:40 <nikos> ... css part doesn't matter so much
21:02:46 <nikos> shepazu: does that also apply to generated content?
21:02:51 <nikos> TabAtkins: yes basically
21:03:00 <nikos> shepazu: I'm thinking you may want five shapes
21:03:05 <nikos> ... each has a different label
21:03:17 <nikos> ... I was thinking of it in terms of params and variables
21:03:29 <nikos> ... and thinking that if you wanted to have a primitive (thinking in terms of connectors)
21:03:50 <nikos> ... use case: five shapes for flowcharts - each can have text
21:04:00 <nikos> ... I was thinking we could accomplish that by defining the shape
21:04:05 <nikos> ... saying where text would be in the shape
21:04:14 <nikos> ... defining the ports (using my model)
21:04:14 <Zakim> +Rich_Schwerdtfeger
21:04:40 <nikos> ... and using some combination of all these things to change the label for each one
21:04:50 <nikos> ... so I might use something and pass in params text='blah'
21:05:10 <nikos> ... wouldn't be accessible by screen readers so might not work for generated content
21:05:11 <heycam> use.node /deep/ text::before { content: "My Label"; }
21:05:20 <nikos> TabAtkins: there's been discussions regarding generated content being more accessible
21:05:44 <nikos> heycam: is any of that compatible with what cam is proposing?
21:05:52 <nikos> TabAtkins: if you lock down the instance then it would block
21:06:10 <nikos> ... if you could style individually you could use a variable to set up the value and use generated content inside of there
21:06:20 <Zakim> -nikos
21:06:46 <Zakim> +??P5
21:06:53 <nikos> Zakim, ??P5 is me
21:06:53 <Zakim> +nikos; got it
21:07:42 <nikos> TabAtkins: the template element - once it works in svg - gives us a more modifiable version of use
21:07:49 <nikos> ... because it has it's own dom and you can touch instances
21:08:04 <nikos> ... so we don't need to worry about use so much because template will give an option for when you want to modify instances
21:08:28 <nikos> shepazu: is template effectively use (declare and then use)? or is template the thing that is reused?
21:08:32 <nikos> TabAtkins: it's use without the shadow dom
21:08:55 <nikos> ... you can put out instances that have their own dom
21:09:25 <nikos> shepazu: so syntax might be <head><template></head><body><stamp></body>
21:09:29 <nikos> TabAtkins: yeah pretty much
21:10:03 <TabAtkins> Intro: http://webcomponents.org/articles/introduction-to-template-element/ (link to spec is at the end)
21:10:53 <nikos> TabAtkins: stuff inside template is inert - won't make requests or play audo
21:10:56 <nikos> s/audo/audio
21:11:01 <nikos> ... instances do that
21:11:08 <nikos> shepazu: is this something we want in SVG?
21:11:15 <nikos> TabAtkins: there's already some bugs/issues around this
21:11:28 <nikos> ... do we just make it an HTML element in SVG or what ?
21:11:39 <nikos> ... we know the problems - just need to work out the solutions
21:11:55 <nikos> shepazu: who would be interested in allowing certain HTML namespace elements to be allowed bare in SVG?
21:12:04 <nikos> ... and who wants SVG equivalents instead?
21:12:31 <TabAtkins> +1
21:12:34 <nikos> ... straw poll - if you would be interested in white listing certain HTML elements in SVG ?
21:12:36 <Tav> -1
21:12:36 <ed> +1
21:12:39 <heycam> +1
21:12:57 <nikos> things like audio, video, template would be good in the white list
21:13:07 <nikos> richardschwerdtfeger: you're not considering text elements and span are you?
21:13:09 <heycam> but would like to avoid duplicating the elements in the SVG namespace, as we got pushback about that
21:13:16 <nikos> shepazu: thinking of elements that have complex behaviours
21:13:41 <nikos> richardschwerdtfeger: my only concern is it complicates the mapping for accessibility
21:13:44 <richardschwerdtfeger> +1 tentative
21:13:52 <nikos> +1
21:14:19 <nikos> Tav: how do we deal with this stuff in an authoring tool?
21:14:43 <nikos> nikos: that's one of the benefits of the white list - you can be picky about which you allow
21:14:54 <nikos> Tav: yeah a white list might end up being ok
21:15:06 <nikos> shepazu: I'd expect in InkScape you could show a blank box using the dimensions
21:15:25 <nikos> Tav: do you need to use JS for tempalte?
21:15:36 <nikos> TabAtkins: you can do it all declaratively
21:15:57 <nikos> s/tempalte/template
21:16:50 <nikos> shepazu: another quick poll - who likes the idea of a white list as a possible solution?
21:17:14 <nikos> richardschwerdtfeger: what does a Canvas element mean - what would the fall back be?
21:17:30 <nikos> shepazu: I'd prefer to white list canvas and canvas would be in the HTML namespace
21:17:38 <nikos> ... and you'd establish a HTML context for the canvas
21:17:44 <nikos> richardschwerdtfeger: I think that would be best
21:18:15 <nikos> shepazu: if we white list certain elements we only have to define any specific behaviours that apply in svg
21:18:28 <nikos> ... we could also define general behaviour for all elements in the white list
21:18:37 <nikos> ... but it seems silly to redefine these elements
21:18:55 <nikos> TabAtkins: it doesn't cause any parsing issues eitehr
21:18:59 <nikos> s/eitehr/either
21:19:21 <nikos> TabAtkins: if we do anything with stand alone parsing later we can make it more convenient, but it's not neccessary
21:19:29 <nikos> shepazu: to me this makes a good interim solution
21:19:43 <nikos> ... we can learn how this will play out
21:19:57 <heycam> +1
21:19:59 <nikos> TabAtkins: I agree, it's a good first step and we are limiting the potential damage
21:21:06 <nikos> heycam: so going back to the first question - whether it's sensible to allow author controlled cutting off of styling
21:21:17 <nikos> TabAtkins: the answer is yes. It's possible in shadow dom
21:21:44 <nikos> ... it's basically free so it's an easy decision to make
21:21:53 <nikos> heycam: Erik what were the edits you made?
21:22:00 <Zakim> -nikos
21:22:02 <nikos> ed: i put in some notes and issues
21:22:14 <Zakim> +??P0
21:22:17 <nikos> Zakim, ??P0 is me
21:22:17 <Zakim> +nikos; got it
21:22:21 <ed> https://svgwg.org/svg2-draft/struct.html#UseElement
21:22:42 <nikos> ed: I did some changes to the event handling parts, to say that events are dispatched according to shadow tree dispatching algo
21:22:59 <nikos> ... there's some issues in there to point out what's not defined in terms of web components
21:23:23 <nikos> heycam: alright well I might add an issue in the spec about the styling cut off behaviour
21:23:30 <nikos> ... I don't have anything syntax wise to suggest yet
21:28:17 <nikos> Topic: SVG to png
21:28:34 <nikos> shepazu: anyone know that status of an api that allows you to generate a static rendering of an svg?
21:28:45 <nikos> heycam: think we kind of talked about this in London
21:29:09 <nikos> ... don't think Jonathon had a concret proposal
21:29:14 <nikos> s/concret/concrete
21:29:17 <ed> this is basically how complex it is to do via canvas: http://xn--dahlstrm-t4a.net/svg/canvas/svg-to-jpeg.html
21:29:27 <nikos> shepazu: I was specifically talking about selecting a tree and rasterising it for download
21:29:32 <nikos> ... so we wouldn't have to go through canvas
21:29:44 <nikos> ... ok so nobody knows the status
21:29:57 <nikos> ... we talked about it a long time ago - I'll try to propose something similar to what canvas ahs
21:30:02 <nikos> s/ahs/has
21:30:07 <nikos> RRSAgent, make minutes public
21:30:07 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes public', nikos.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
21:30:21 <Zakim> -TabAtkins
21:30:22 <Zakim> -ed
21:30:23 <nikos> RRSAgent, make minutes
21:30:23 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/12/11-svg-minutes.html nikos
21:30:24 <Zakim> -heycam
21:30:25 <Zakim> -Rich_Schwerdtfeger
21:30:26 <Zakim> -stakagi
21:30:27 <Zakim> -Doug_Schepers
21:30:31 <Zakim> -Tav
21:30:33 <Zakim> -nikos
21:30:35 <Zakim> GA_SVGWG()3:30PM has ended
21:30:35 <Zakim> Attendees were [IPcaller], heycam, ed, stakagi, nikos, Tav, Doug_Schepers, +1.281.305.aaaa, TabAtkins, Thomas_Smailus, Rich_Schwerdtfeger
21:36:32 <nikos> Which email addresses are we sending minutes to these days?
21:39:45 <TabAtkins> www-svg, no?
21:40:18 <nikos> yeah we used to bcc another list - I can't remember which one it was
21:40:29 <nikos> might have been one of the ones we talked about decommissioning
21:40:33 <nikos> heycam|away: ping
21:43:28 <shepazu> www-svg
21:53:12 <nikos> ok www-svg only it is then
21:59:05 <Rossen___> Rossen___ has joined #svg
22:06:56 <richardschwerdtfeger> richardschwerdtfeger has left #svg
22:09:11 <krit> nikos: not w3c-svg-wg as well?
22:17:35 <jcraig> jcraig has joined #svg
22:50:11 <heycam> let's get in to the habit of sending agenda/minutes only to www-sv
22:50:15 <heycam> *www-svg