14:54:01 RRSAgent has joined #i18n 14:54:01 logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/12/11-i18n-irc 14:54:07 trackbot, prepare teleconference 14:54:09 RRSAgent, make logs world 14:54:11 Zakim, this will be 4186 14:54:11 ok, trackbot; I see I18N_WG()10:00AM scheduled to start in 6 minutes 14:54:12 Meeting: Internationalization Working Group Teleconference 14:54:12 Date: 11 December 2014 14:54:26 Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-core/2014Dec/0007.html 14:54:31 Chair: Addison Phillips 14:54:34 ScribeNick: aphillip 14:54:38 Scribe: Addison Phillips 14:54:47 rrsagent, draft minutes 14:54:47 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/12/11-i18n-minutes.html aphillip 14:55:17 agenda+ RADAR and Active Work Review 14:55:26 agenda+Review the Chinese Layout Task Force charter 14:55:32 Indic Layout Requirements FPWD Transition Request 14:55:42 agenda+ Review of XSLT 3.0 is due 14:55:51 agenda+ Review of LTLI draft 14:56:00 agenda+ URI topics 14:56:35 Bobby has joined #i18n 14:58:26 I18N_WG()10:00AM has now started 14:58:33 +[IPcaller] 14:58:47 -[IPcaller] 14:58:48 I18N_WG()10:00AM has ended 14:58:48 Attendees were [IPcaller] 14:59:13 matial has joined #i18n 14:59:20 Steve_Atkin has joined #i18n 14:59:30 zakim, dial richard please 14:59:30 ok, r12a; the call is being made 14:59:31 I18N_WG()10:00AM has now started 14:59:34 +Richard 14:59:55 + +1.813.410.aaaa 15:00:20 +[IPcaller] 15:00:33 zakim, [IPcaller] is me 15:00:33 +Bobby; got it 15:00:43 zakim, +1 is Steve 15:00:43 +Steve; got it 15:00:48 zakim, who's here? 15:00:48 On the phone I see Richard, Steve, Bobby 15:00:50 On IRC I see Steve_Atkin, matial, Bobby, RRSAgent, Zakim, aphillip, fsasaki, r12a, koji, fantasai, xiaoqian, trackbot 15:00:50 +??P7 15:01:06 zakim, +??P7 is Mati 15:01:07 zakim, ??p7 is me 15:01:07 sorry, r12a, I do not recognize a party named '+??P7' 15:01:07 +matial; got it 15:01:09 +aphillip 15:01:14 zakim, who is here? 15:01:14 On the phone I see Richard, Steve, Bobby, matial, aphillip 15:01:16 On IRC I see Steve_Atkin, matial, Bobby, RRSAgent, Zakim, aphillip, fsasaki, r12a, koji, fantasai, xiaoqian, trackbot 15:01:32 + +1.408.536.aabb 15:02:03 zakim, +1 is Leandro 15:02:03 +Leandro; got it 15:02:10 Leandro has joined #i18n 15:02:59 zakim, unmute me 15:02:59 matial should no longer be muted 15:03:16 David has joined #i18n 15:03:54 agenda? 15:04:02 Topic: Agenda 15:04:23 Topic: Action Items 15:04:31 http://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/open 15:04:56 action-113? 15:04:56 action-113 -- Richard Ishida to Work on tidying up Additional Requirements for Bidi in HTML & CSS over coming couple of months -- due 2012-04-11 -- OPEN 15:04:56 http://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/113 15:04:58 + +91.81.30.33.aacc 15:05:35 richard: sent email aharon, porting document to respec 15:05:37 JcK has joined #i18n 15:05:44 zakim, +9 is Somnath 15:05:44 +Somnath; got it 15:05:46 +??P25 15:06:19 +JcK 15:06:21 zakim, +??P2 is David 15:06:21 sorry, r12a, I do not recognize a party named '+??P2' 15:06:33 action-356? 15:06:33 action-356 -- Leandro Reis to Work on converting cldr alphabetic index data to css predefined counter styles using automatic means, evaluating suitability of the data, and report back to wg -- due 2014-11-06 -- OPEN 15:06:33 http://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/356 15:06:34 zakim, who's here? 15:06:34 On the phone I see Richard, Steve, Bobby, matial, aphillip, Leandro, Somnath, ??P25, JcK 15:06:37 On IRC I see JcK, David, Leandro, Steve_Atkin, matial, Bobby, RRSAgent, Zakim, aphillip, fsasaki, r12a, koji, fantasai, xiaoqian, trackbot 15:06:46 Zakim, +??P25 is me 15:06:46 sorry, David, I do not recognize a party named '+??P25' 15:06:58 leandro: ticket open on cldr 15:06:58 Zakim, ??P25 is me 15:06:58 +David; got it 15:07:02 ... open 2 months now 15:07:06 ... and then need to help them 15:07:19 +Xiaoqian 15:07:27 ... sent sample output to richard and addison 15:07:42 richard: didn't have time to look more than briefly 15:07:45 addison: ditto 15:07:54 leandro: so script ready. just need data 15:08:19 close action-356 15:08:19 Closed action-356. 15:08:40 action: leandro: follow up with cldr ticket to add counter style data 15:08:40 Created ACTION-383 - Follow up with cldr ticket to add counter style data [on Leandro Reis - due 2014-12-18]. 15:09:14 zakim, who's here? 15:09:14 On the phone I see Richard, Steve, Bobby, matial, aphillip, Leandro, Somnath, David, JcK, Xiaoqian 15:09:16 On IRC I see JcK, David, Leandro, Steve_Atkin, matial, Bobby, RRSAgent, Zakim, aphillip, fsasaki, r12a, koji, fantasai, xiaoqian, trackbot 15:09:26 CLDR ticket about adding counter style characters to data files: http://unicode.org/cldr/trac/ticket/7954 15:09:30 action-360? 15:09:30 action-360 -- Xiaoqian Wu to Survey publishers if there are requirements for additional/more specific styles in chinese e-books -- due 2014-11-06 -- OPEN 15:09:30 http://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/360 15:09:44 xiaoqian: didn't get helpful feedback yet 15:10:35 -Somnath 15:11:07 close action-367 15:11:07 Closed action-367. 15:11:33 close action-371 15:11:33 Closed action-371. 15:12:08 close action-378 15:12:09 Closed action-378. 15:12:27 somnath, we lost you 15:12:29 +??P26 15:12:46 zakim, ??P is Somnath 15:12:46 +Somnath; got it 15:13:01 somnath: responded to norbert's comments 15:13:16 ... norbert agreed that other comments are okay 15:13:34 close action-379 15:13:34 Closed action-379. 15:13:53 richard: another person commented (haridam?) 15:13:59 somnath: already responded to him 15:14:06 ... he's okay 15:14:22 ... requested he send an email to that effect 15:14:39 richard: need to send to indic list 15:14:49 somnath: will send reply to public list also 15:15:07 close action-380 15:15:08 Closed action-380. 15:15:33 action-381? 15:15:33 action-381 -- John Klensin to Check on eai documentation pages and send a link to the wg -- due 2014-12-11 -- OPEN 15:15:33 http://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/381 15:15:39 addison: will double check I saw it 15:16:10 zakim, who's here? 15:16:10 On the phone I see Richard, Steve, Bobby, matial, aphillip, Leandro, David, JcK, Xiaoqian, Somnath 15:16:13 On IRC I see JcK, David, Leandro, Steve_Atkin, matial, Bobby, RRSAgent, Zakim, aphillip, fsasaki, r12a, koji, fantasai, xiaoqian, trackbot 15:16:25 https://www.w3.org/International/wiki/EAI_Address_Issues 15:16:51 close action-381 15:16:51 Closed action-381. 15:17:12 Topic: Info Share 15:17:30 somnath: comment on that item 15:17:54 ... some institutions in india would like to contribute to Tibetan layout 15:18:06 s/that item/CL TF item/ 15:18:18 richard: just finishing charter 15:18:27 ... there will be links/process to join 15:18:57 ... previous assumption was TF would work in Chinese, but others outside China also interested 15:19:39 JcK: next draft of document "what to about lang dependent code points" 15:20:06 s/to about/to do about/ 15:20:11 -Somnath 15:20:15 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-klensin-idna-5892upd-unicode70/ 15:22:31 addison: next meeting will be our last of the year 15:22:38 JcK: next week regrets 15:22:47 richard: next week potential regrets 15:22:53 agenda? 15:22:58 zakim, take up agendum 1 15:22:58 agendum 1. "RADAR and Active Work Review" taken up [from aphillip] 15:23:05 https://www.w3.org/International/wiki/Review_radar 15:23:19 regrets from Richard until 15th Jan meeting 15:23:28 fsasaki has joined #i18n 15:23:54 +q 15:23:59 +[IPcaller] 15:24:03 ack Bobby 15:24:16 zakim, who's noisy? 15:24:29 r12a, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Leandro (15%) 15:24:38 mute me 15:24:39 typing here 15:24:44 zakim, mute Leandro 15:24:44 Leandro should now be muted 15:24:45 somnath has joined #i18n 15:24:45 Zakim, mute me 15:24:46 zakim, mute Leandro 15:24:46 Leandro was already muted, Leandro 15:24:46 Leandro was already muted, r12a 15:24:54 zakim, mute bobby 15:24:54 Bobby should now be muted 15:25:06 bobby we only heard white noise from you 15:25:06 Fantasai just done the initial letter 15:25:26 zakim, unmute bobby 15:25:26 Bobby should no longer be muted 15:25:27 should we add the inline layout level 3 to the review list? 15:25:35 zakim, mute bobby 15:25:35 Bobby should now be muted 15:25:51 bobby, can you send me a link to the document? 15:26:11 http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-inline/ 15:26:21 will add, thanks 15:26:41 addison: will shepherd Web Annotation Data Model 15:26:56 q+ 15:27:22 richard: looked at that. they use dc:language 15:27:31 ... uses RFC 5646 rather than bcp47 15:27:34 but with BCP47 values 15:27:38 ack fsasaki 15:28:08 felix: that link says 15:28:12 ... the text must be normalized 15:28:19 ... that may be something to look at 15:28:29 ... no definitiion of what normalized is 15:28:35 ... a few other things 15:28:51 richard: do you normalize it for the process you're running? 15:28:55 ... or do you store that? 15:29:44 addison: any takers for xinclude? 15:29:50 (may not review...?) 15:29:55 https://www.w3.org/International/wiki/Project_radar 15:30:27 addison: no changes in document this week 15:30:31 agenda? 15:31:06 agenda+ Indic Layout Requirements FPWD Transition Request 15:31:12 zakim, take up agendum 6 15:31:12 agendum 6. "Indic Layout Requirements FPWD Transition Request" taken up [from aphillip] 15:31:27 http://www.w3.org/International/docs/indic-layout/ 15:31:37 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/12/11-i18n-minutes.html aphillip 15:31:54 richard: ran spell check 15:32:00 ... somnath made changes 15:32:04 ... fixed spelling 15:32:12 ... somnath answered a lot of Norbert's questions 15:32:20 ... one missing item is that Norbert suggested 15:32:44 ... the intro should say somewhere "yes, only Hindi *now*, but other languages to be done later..." 15:32:56 richard: suggest we add text like that now 15:33:01 ... will suggest to somnath 15:33:08 ... try to publish it tuesday 15:33:34 chair: proposal is to publish Indic Layout Requirements as First Public Working Draft 15:33:54 ... indicate your support or non-support 15:34:14 richard: note that first public is not expected to be in any specific level of maturity 15:34:20 ... doesn't have to be in fantastic shape 15:35:00 +1 15:35:04 +1 15:35:05 +1 15:35:05 +1 15:35:09 +1 15:35:13 +1 15:35:17 +1 15:35:20 +1 but don't know much about the subject 15:35:32 :-) 15:36:07 somnath : ok thnks. 15:36:07 +1 15:36:16 chair: so resolved 15:36:42 agenda? 15:36:51 ACTION: Richard to suggest wording for Somnath to add to indic layout intro to explain that we'll do other languages later 15:36:51 Created ACTION-384 - Suggest wording for somnath to add to indic layout intro to explain that we'll do other languages later [on Richard Ishida - due 2014-12-18]. 15:36:59 zakim, take up agendum 2 15:36:59 agendum 2. "Review the Chinese Layout Task Force charter" taken up [from aphillip] 15:37:13 http://www.w3.org/International/groups/chinese-layout/charter 15:37:18 richard: brief report 15:37:28 ... took discussion items to beihang folks 15:37:35 ... they were happy, updated charter 15:37:43 ... yellow stuff are changes I added since then 15:37:55 ... one outstanding query with them 15:38:12 ... starting to think we may need separate public lists for tibetan and mongolian 15:38:34 ... because cjk list has affinity between languages because they use similar writing system 15:38:41 ... the others don't 15:38:42 q+ 15:38:50 ack xiaoqian 15:39:15 xiaoqian: have one list for all languages or separate lists by languauge? 15:39:35 richard: provide maybe public-i18n-mongolian/public-i18n-tibetan (two lists) 15:39:59 richard: public-i18n-zhreq list proposed to be in Chinese language 15:40:17 ... one issue is that people in Bhutan and India that want to participate in Tibetan work 15:40:24 ... may not speak Chinese 15:40:31 ... and maybe people in Mongolia? 15:41:00 xiaoqian: suggest to use that list's language? 15:41:17 richard: some people working on the script don't actually speak the language 15:41:29 ... maybe either use English or Mongolian/Tibetan?? 15:41:43 richard: public list would be in English 15:42:13 xioaqian: most mongolian experts speak no english at all 15:44:32 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/12/11-i18n-minutes.html aphillip 15:45:09 chair: do we support adoption of the Chinese Layout Task Force charter? 15:45:15 +1 15:45:15 +1 15:45:19 +1 15:45:20 +1 15:45:21 +1 15:45:24 +1 15:45:30 +1 15:45:34 +1 15:45:54 Yes, although Id be a tad more complicated if more of the "how work will get done" details were nailed down. 15:46:02 richard: if you have suggestions about mailing lists, please make them 15:46:13 ... this likely to be a problem we have to deal with more in the future 15:46:16 And +1 to Richard's comment about future versions of the issue 15:46:25 chair: so resolved! 15:46:42 agenda? 15:46:57 zakim, take up agendum 3 15:46:57 agendum 3. "Review of XSLT 3.0 is due" taken up [from aphillip] 15:47:26 http://www.w3.org/TR/xslt-30/ 15:47:40 https://www.w3.org/International/track/products/63 15:48:14 action-375? 15:48:14 action-375 -- Steven Atkin to Defining Decimal Formats Permits Only Single Characters -- due 2014-12-02 -- OPEN 15:48:14 http://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/375 15:48:42 When decimal formats are defined only single characters are permitted for decimal format elements. The zero-digit element only allows a single numeric character. This means that a sequence such as U+0030 U+20E3 would not be permitted. See section 5.5 15:49:02 action-376? 15:49:02 action-376 -- Steven Atkin to Provide Guidance on Collation Tailorings -- due 2014-12-02 -- OPEN 15:49:02 http://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/376 15:49:15 Section 13.1.3 requires that all implementers must recognize collation URIs as described in the Unicode Collation Algorithm, however there is no requirement to actually support any tailorings. I think we may want to consider requiring some level of support that all implementers will provide. 15:49:50 steve: how useful is it without support requirement? 15:51:08 issue-392? 15:51:08 issue-392 -- Decimal Format incomplete? -- open 15:51:08 http://www.w3.org/International/track/issues/392 15:51:19 In Section 5.5, there is a definition of "decimal-format". The structure here is similar to that found in CLDR/LDML [1], which is a very good thing. However, there are additional number related items in that section of LDML, particularly related to decimal, percent, scientific, and currency formatting. 15:52:03 issue-393? 15:52:03 issue-393 -- zero-digit replacement? -- open 15:52:03 http://www.w3.org/International/track/issues/393 15:52:04 XSLT decimal-format contains a "zero-digit" item (to start blocks of digits). CLDR now deprecates this (which doesn't mean you should remove it because: compatibility). CLDR has replaced this with number system, which XSLT might consider adding. 15:52:49 issue-394? 15:52:49 issue-394 -- decimal-format reference CLDR? -- open 15:52:49 http://www.w3.org/International/track/issues/394 15:52:51 decimal-format seems to mirror much of what CLDR provides in terms of base data for formatting numbers in XSL-FO. Would it be useful to provide an informative reference to CLDR as a source for filling in this structure? 15:52:52 Thinking out loud, would it be useful to allow direct reference to a language/locale in this structure as a shorthand for using implementation-specific locale data (often based on CLDR). 15:54:10 JcK: better to incorporate so that they aren't "parallel documents" if that's what they're trying to do 15:54:26 ... or say why they aren't tracking CLDR 15:55:21 addison: think they relationship should be somewhat explicit 15:55:28 issue-396? 15:55:28 issue-396 -- character maps needs a string? -- open 15:55:28 http://www.w3.org/International/track/issues/396 15:55:41 The 'character-maps' feature allows mapping a Unicode 'char' (which is defined in a way that means a Unicode codepoint) to a replacement string. This is good for most purposes, but it's not clear to me if grapheme cluster sequences might be useful here as well. 15:56:53 Need to leave a bit early today - 'til next week 15:57:03 -Leandro 15:58:14 http://www.w3.org/TR/xslt-30/#character-maps 15:58:32 issue-395? 15:58:32 issue-395 -- URI developments ⓣ -- open 15:58:32 http://www.w3.org/International/track/issues/395 15:58:45 [Definition: Within this specification, the term URI Reference, unless otherwise stated, refers to a string in the lexical space of the xs:anyURI datatype as defined in [XML Schema Part 2].] Note that this is a wider definition than that in [RFC3986]: in particular, it is designed to accommodate Internationalized Resource Identifiers (IRIs) as described in [RFC3987], and thus allows the use of non-ASCII characters without escaping. 15:58:45 -- 15:58:45 This is a Good Thing, but continuing developments in the URI/IRI/URL space need to be tracked. I don't see any specific changes needed now: I'm creating this as a tracking issue. 16:00:04 richard: have a request 16:01:48 action: addison: write apologetic email about lateness and forward XSLT3.0 comments 16:01:49 Created ACTION-385 - Write apologetic email about lateness and forward xslt3.0 comments [on Addison Phillips - due 2014-12-18]. 16:02:07 agenda? 16:03:04 -David 16:03:09 David: regrets next week 16:03:17 Topic: AOB? 16:03:48 richard: send in comments about LTLI draft via email 16:04:15 -Steve 16:04:15 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/12/11-i18n-minutes.html aphillip 16:04:21 -fsasaki 16:04:24 -matial 16:04:25 -JcK 16:04:30 -aphillip 16:04:32 -Bobby 16:04:34 zakim, drop richard 16:04:34 Richard is being disconnected 16:04:36 -Richard 16:04:38 Bobby has left #i18n 16:04:49 zakim, who is here? 16:04:49 On the phone I see Xiaoqian 16:04:51 On IRC I see fsasaki, RRSAgent, Zakim, aphillip, r12a, koji, fantasai, xiaoqian, trackbot 16:05:00 zakim, drop Xiaoqian 16:05:00 Xiaoqian is being disconnected 16:05:02 I18N_WG()10:00AM has ended 16:05:02 Attendees were Richard, +1.813.410.aaaa, Bobby, Steve, matial, aphillip, +1.408.536.aabb, Leandro, +91.81.30.33.aacc, Somnath, JcK, David, Xiaoqian, [IPcaller], fsasaki 16:05:40 zakim, drop Xiaoqian 16:05:40 sorry, r12a, I don't know what conference this is 16:05:49 ah, done 16:05:50 Present: Addison, Richard, Xiaoqian, Bobby, Steve, JcK, Mati, David, Leandro, Somnath, Felix 16:06:04 rrsagent, make minutes 16:06:04 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/12/11-i18n-minutes.html aphillip 16:06:38 zakim, bye 16:06:38 Zakim has left #i18n 16:06:43 rrsagent, bye 16:06:43 I see 3 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2014/12/11-i18n-actions.rdf : 16:06:43 ACTION: leandro: follow up with cldr ticket to add counter style data [1] 16:06:43 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/12/11-i18n-irc#T15-08-40 16:06:43 ACTION: Richard to suggest wording for Somnath to add to indic layout intro to explain that we'll do other languages later [2] 16:06:43 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/12/11-i18n-irc#T15-36-51 16:06:43 ACTION: addison: write apologetic email about lateness and forward XSLT3.0 comments [3] 16:06:43 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/12/11-i18n-irc#T16-01-48