15:28:09 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #dpub
15:28:09 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/12/08-dpub-irc
15:28:11 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
15:28:11 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #dpub
15:28:13 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be dpub
15:28:13 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see DPUB_DPUBIG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 32 minutes
15:28:14 <trackbot> Meeting: Digital Publishing Interest Group Teleconference
15:28:14 <trackbot> Date: 08 December 2014
15:28:49 <ivan> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-digipub-ig/2014Dec/0001.html
15:28:54 <ivan> ivan has changed the topic to: agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-digipub-ig/2014Dec/0001.html
15:38:18 <ivan> Regrets: Madi
15:48:20 <ivan> Regrets+ David_Stroup
15:53:30 <tzviya> tzviya has joined #dpub
15:54:17 <AH_Miller> AH_Miller has joined #DPUB
15:54:45 <Zakim> DPUB_DPUBIG()11:00AM has now started
15:54:50 <clapierre> clapierre has joined #DPUB
15:54:52 <Zakim> +George_Kerscher
15:54:53 <Zakim> +[Safari]
15:55:12 <dkaplan3> zakim, [Safari] is me
15:55:12 <Zakim> +dkaplan3; got it
15:55:35 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:55:39 <Zakim> +clapierre
15:56:21 <Zakim> +MikeMiller
15:56:31 <mgylling> mgylling has joined #dpub
15:57:48 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip
15:57:48 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made
15:57:49 <Zakim> +Ivan
15:58:21 <laudrain> laudrain has joined #dpub
15:59:01 <Zakim> + +1.212.255.aaaa
15:59:13 <dauwhe> dauwhe has joined #dpub
15:59:25 <tzviya> zakim, aaaa is tzviya
15:59:25 <Zakim> +tzviya; got it
15:59:32 <Zakim> +Luc
15:59:49 <dauwhe> Zakim, aaaa has dauwhe
15:59:49 <Zakim> sorry, dauwhe, I do not recognize a party named 'aaaa'
16:00:12 <Zakim> +Markus
16:00:20 <ivan> zakim, who is here?
16:00:20 <Zakim> On the phone I see dkaplan3, George_Kerscher, [IPcaller], clapierre, MikeMiller, Ivan, tzviya, Luc, Markus
16:00:23 <Zakim> On IRC I see dauwhe, laudrain, mgylling, clapierre, AH_Miller, tzviya, Zakim, RRSAgent, ivan, fjh, astearns, iank__, liam, rego, mihnea_____, plinss, dkaplan3, trackbot
16:00:47 <Vlad> Vlad has joined #dpub
16:01:14 <Zakim> +Vlad
16:01:31 <mgylling> regrets: pkra, david stroup
16:01:59 <bjdmeest> bjdmeest has joined #dpub
16:02:07 <Zakim> +[Ugent]
16:02:09 <Zakim> +Stearns
16:02:17 <bjdmeest> zakim, Ugent is me
16:02:17 <Zakim> +bjdmeest; got it
16:02:25 <Zakim> +Bill_Kasdorf
16:02:26 <tmichel> tmichel has joined #dpub
16:02:27 <bjdmeest> Present+ Ben_De_Meester
16:02:52 <mgylling> Present+ Avneesh Singh (DAISY)
16:03:12 <tzviya> zakim, pick a victim
16:03:12 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Stearns
16:03:22 <Zakim> +Thierry
16:03:23 <Vlad> Apologies, I have a conflict and will have to disconnect in 1/2 hour
16:03:32 <tzviya> zakim, pick a victim
16:03:32 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Vlad
16:03:54 <tzviya> zakim, pick a victim
16:03:54 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Thierry
16:04:02 <tzviya> zakim, pick a victim
16:04:02 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Luc
16:04:22 <tzviya> zakim, pick a victim
16:04:22 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose dkaplan3
16:04:33 <Bert> Bert has joined #dpub
16:04:37 <dauwhe> scribenick: dauwhe
16:04:39 <Bill_Kasdorf> Bill_Kasdorf has joined #dpub
16:04:51 <Zakim> +vivien
16:05:14 <dauwhe> tzviya: we have some new people here today
16:06:07 <Julie> Julie has joined #dpub
16:06:11 <dauwhe> George: I'm president of IDPF and Secretary-General of DAISY
16:06:15 <dauwhe> ... working on epub issues
16:06:28 <dauwhe> Amnish: work for DAISY
16:06:39 <dauwhe> ... also work on EPUB
16:06:43 <mgylling> s/Amnish/Avneesh/
16:06:53 <tzviya> http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/Meetings
16:06:54 <dauwhe> tzviya: review minutes from last week
16:06:59 <dauwhe> ... any comments?
16:07:01 <tzviya> http://www.w3.org/2014/11/24-dpub-minutes.html
16:07:03 <Zakim> + +1.347.633.aabb
16:07:06 <dauwhe> ... we also had short minutes for the first time
16:07:24 <dauwhe> mgylling: we're doing short minutes until further notice?
16:07:31 <dauwhe> tzviya: yes. lots of good feedback.
16:07:51 <ivan> zakim, aabb is Julie
16:07:51 <Zakim> +Julie; got it
16:07:53 <Zakim> +[IPcaller.a]
16:08:02 <dauwhe> mgylling: Ivan has taken responsibility for short minutes?
16:08:04 <dauwhe> ivan: yes
16:08:06 <fjh> zakim, ipcaller.a is me
16:08:06 <Zakim> +fjh; got it
16:08:22 <dauwhe> tzviya: if anyone wants to do them, Ivan would graciously accept :)
16:08:42 <dauwhe> tzviya: first item is to review list of digital publishing terms to present to PF
16:08:49 <dauwhe> ... at TPAC we met with PF
16:09:04 <dauwhe> ... about presenting a list of terms to put into an ARIA module
16:09:14 <dauwhe> ... so we can have a structural semantic vocab for DPUB
16:09:26 <dauwhe> ... Markus and I have worked through EPUB's vocab
16:09:28 <tzviya> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Wvlf5aahrZ5VVu03Dj8p7ne3ae02ALIg8hqTLIWeip4/edit#gid=0
16:09:41 <dauwhe> ... the goal is to add to this list as needed
16:09:55 <dauwhe> ... the definitions in this list will be cleaned up
16:10:07 <dauwhe> ... sorry... document is not yet public
16:11:45 <dauwhe> ... [working on making the document public]
16:13:02 <bjdmeest> this is the non-edit link (I think) https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Wvlf5aahrZ5VVu03Dj8p7ne3ae02ALIg8hqTLIWeip4/pubhtml
16:13:58 <dauwhe> s/wizzard/wizard/
16:14:08 <dauwhe> mgylling: this is a subset of epub structural semantic vocab
16:14:19 <dauwhe> tzviya: we also have include/defer column here
16:14:26 <dauwhe> ... some we might want to remove
16:14:34 <dauwhe> ... category may or may not be relevant
16:14:48 <dauwhe> ... we'll need some additional description before presenting to ARIA
16:15:03 <dauwhe> ... and we have a few notes about current relationships with ARIA
16:15:10 <dauwhe> ... for example, around notes/note
16:15:25 <dauwhe> ... the existing list has 200 terms, this is less than 40
16:15:35 <dauwhe> ... next step is to clean up, clarify definitions
16:15:41 <dauwhe> ... then schedule meeting with PF
16:15:50 <dauwhe> ... try to get this into module of ARIA
16:15:58 <dauwhe> ... and, as always, volunteers are welcome
16:16:04 <tzviya> q?
16:16:07 <dauwhe> ivan: still digesting
16:16:31 <dauwhe> mgylling: for context, terms that have been excluded in this round
16:16:38 <dauwhe> ... we expect to append to it in later cycles
16:16:51 <dauwhe> ... PF wants to set up a more agile process for adding to ARIA
16:17:00 <dauwhe> ... lots of terms are still in draft
16:17:08 <dauwhe> ... including edu terms, comic terms, etc
16:17:14 <dauwhe> ... we elected to wait on those
16:17:27 <tzviya> q?
16:17:33 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: are any of these draft status?
16:17:37 <dauwhe> mgylling: I think only two
16:17:47 <dauwhe> tzviya: two or three from the testing section
16:17:51 <dauwhe> ... question and answer
16:18:03 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: none from magazine vocab?
16:18:05 <dauwhe> tzviya: no
16:18:14 <tzviya> q?
16:18:20 <ivan> q+
16:18:28 <dauwhe> mgylling: should we talk about staffing of task force?
16:18:33 <tzviya> ack ivan
16:19:03 <dauwhe> ivan: will these be used as values of role attribute?
16:19:09 <dauwhe> ... if I look at "usage" column
16:19:15 <tzviya> <dc:source>http://www.idpf.org/epub/vocab/structure/</source>
16:19:24 <dauwhe> ... do we want to make a restriction on which HTML element can be used for that specific value?
16:19:39 <dauwhe> mgylling: on which element the value is expected to occur?
16:19:43 <dauwhe> ivan: allowed
16:19:59 <dauwhe> mgylling: we have epub definition of usage, which is recommended, not required
16:20:11 <dauwhe> ... we need to ARIA-ify these
16:20:25 <dauwhe> ... will be put in same framework as existing ARIA roles
16:20:52 <dauwhe> ... so we'll need to do same things ARIA already does for each term
16:20:59 <tzviya> q?
16:21:00 <dauwhe> ivan: ARIA can define a restriction?
16:21:02 <dauwhe> mgylling: yes
16:21:15 <dauwhe> ... HTML5 may also have restrictions
16:21:26 <dauwhe> ... right now we're working on the ARIA definitions
16:21:31 <dauwhe> ... looking for an example now...
16:21:43 <dauwhe> tzviya: the glossary terms are a good example
16:21:53 <dauwhe> ... <dl role="glossary">
16:22:13 <dauwhe> ... might restrict it to just that or might have <ul role="glossary">
16:22:27 <tzviya> q?
16:22:36 <dauwhe> ivan: I don't know all the possible restrictions PF can set
16:22:58 <dauwhe> tzviya: it's not just sending a list to PF, we should have a task force with regular meetings
16:23:15 <dauwhe> ... Markus and I will work on this, and we want volunteers to join us
16:23:27 <dauwhe> George: I've joined the PF list and am ready to participate
16:23:47 <dauwhe> mgylling: They'll want to know who will chair or co-chair this task force
16:23:55 <dauwhe> ... if we could decide this today it would be good
16:24:13 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: within the IG?
16:24:18 <tzviya> q?
16:24:23 <dauwhe> mgylling: Joint task force between DPUB and PF
16:24:48 <dauwhe> ivan: at some point I did volunteer at TPAC to look at OWL-specific things
16:25:39 <dauwhe> tzviya: I'm happy to help out
16:25:55 <dauwhe> mgylling: initially we can propose Markus and Tzviya as co-chairs
16:26:09 <dauwhe> tzviya: and thank you George
16:26:18 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: yes
16:26:18 <ivan> q+
16:26:34 <dauwhe> tzviya: any other questions about the progress of this task force?
16:26:40 <tzviya> ack ivan
16:26:55 <dauwhe> ivan: I want to understand whether we have a plan on the timing and the road ahead
16:27:04 <dauwhe> ... where are the bottlenecks?
16:27:10 <dauwhe> tzviya: good question
16:27:18 <dauwhe> ... we were the first big bottleneck
16:27:37 <dauwhe> ... next phase is setting up task force meetings
16:27:42 <dauwhe> ... holidays will complicate that
16:27:52 <dauwhe> ... next bottleneck will be agreeing on definitions
16:28:07 <dauwhe> mgylling: hard to predict how much time it will take to bless and publish this
16:28:20 <dauwhe> ivan: I felt that IDPF already has the definitions for these terms
16:28:26 <dauwhe> ... aren't they already there?
16:28:34 <dauwhe> mgylling: they are our initial proposed definitions
16:28:43 <Zakim> -Stearns
16:28:51 <dauwhe> ... but as we move into new context there may be an evolution
16:28:59 <dauwhe> ivan: we do not start from scratch
16:29:11 <dauwhe> tzviya: I'd like to get this to PF this week
16:29:19 <dauwhe> ivan: their question will be
16:29:29 <dauwhe> ... I don't know what you mean by SSV category
16:29:44 <dauwhe> tzviya: I would like to get a cleaned-up version of this to PF this week
16:29:52 <Vlad> sorry, have to disconnect now
16:29:57 <Zakim> -Vlad
16:30:00 <tzviya> q?
16:30:23 <dauwhe> tzviya: I'd like to have the task force meetings in December
16:30:29 <Zakim> +Stearns
16:30:32 <dauwhe> ... want to get it moving this month
16:30:46 <dauwhe> ... we'll have something to present to PF this week
16:30:55 <dauwhe> ... we'll at least have a meeting scheduled soon
16:31:05 <dauwhe> ... but much depends on how PF interprets this
16:31:13 <mgylling> http://www.w3.org/TR/2014/PR-html-longdesc-20141204/
16:31:24 <ivan> Topic: longdesc
16:31:33 <mgylling> (AC only) https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/33280/longdesc-PR/
16:31:39 <dauwhe> mgylling: here's the AC review link
16:32:00 <dauwhe> ... we have been reminded that input from the publishing community is desired
16:32:15 <dauwhe> ... so how can we produce a review?
16:33:01 <dauwhe> ... we need to poke all publisher W3C members to do this review
16:33:13 <dauwhe> George: I was hoping to clarify in my mind the implications of this
16:34:05 <dauwhe> ... clarifying the usage, and then asking other w3c members to comment
16:34:17 <ivan> q+
16:34:32 <dauwhe> mgylling: in terms of clarifying the usage, can you rephrase as question? This has been discussed for more than a decade
16:34:58 <dauwhe> George: when a long desc is needed, such as "the diagrammer", a framework for making images accessible
16:35:14 <mgylling> s/diagrammer/Diagrammar/
16:35:42 <dauwhe> ... when would you use long desc, and the other aspect is SVG, how do we add enhancements to other elements other than just the image?
16:35:48 <dauwhe> ... this is just focused on image
16:35:57 <dauwhe> ... there are other items that need a description
16:36:14 <dauwhe> ... is the rec that there be a variety of techniques, depending on the element? Like canvas...
16:36:16 <dauwhe> mgylling: right
16:36:49 <dauwhe> ... there is an attribute in ARIA 1.1 called described-at, which takes a URL so you can point outside the doc
16:36:58 <dauwhe> ... which is a more generic version of longdesc
16:37:08 <dauwhe> ... longdesc is allowed on IMG and map only
16:37:22 <dauwhe> ... so you're asking about what is the long-term vision
16:37:30 <dauwhe> George: there's the political aspect
16:37:42 <dauwhe> ... it's been a Herculean effort from them
16:37:59 <dauwhe> ... just trying to get my head around all this
16:38:29 <dauwhe> mgylling: it's safe to say that in PF strategy terms, longdesc is intended to solve problems in the short term
16:38:37 <dauwhe> ... while waiting for ARIA 1.1 to me mature
16:39:20 <dauwhe> George: the techniques for exposing this attribute, in Firefox it's a context menu item
16:39:42 <dauwhe> ... I think the long term goal is good
16:39:46 <clapierre> q+
16:40:03 <dauwhe> mgylling: another thing on horizon is annotations
16:40:06 <tzviya> q?
16:40:11 <dauwhe> ... which can be used for a11y
16:40:24 <dauwhe> ... with annotations, the pointing description is reversed
16:40:34 <dauwhe> s/description/direction/
16:40:45 <dauwhe> ... it's good to have both described-at and annotations
16:40:49 <dauwhe> ... that's the end point
16:40:55 <mgylling> ack ivan
16:40:56 <tzviya> ack ivan
16:41:08 <dauwhe> ivan: I'm a bit bothered by what's happening in terms of process
16:41:22 <dauwhe> ... George is asking about long term
16:41:37 <dauwhe> ... procedurally, at this point the only thing that members can vote on
16:41:51 <dauwhe> ... is essentially a yes or no, since this is already a PR
16:42:01 <dauwhe> ... they may decide it's not to be a REC
16:42:13 <dauwhe> ... but it is not at this stage that any technical comments should occur
16:42:25 <dauwhe> ... but we missed the boat
16:43:03 <dauwhe> ... If publishers support this, that's a valuable message, as there has been controvery
16:43:31 <ivan> s/controvery/controversy/
16:43:32 <dauwhe> George: we supplied formal written comments a couple of years ago
16:43:40 <mgylling> ack clapierre
16:43:52 <dauwhe> clapierre: a couple questions
16:43:58 <clapierre> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-admin/2014Aug/0028.html
16:44:07 <dauwhe> ... first, here's Apple's formal objection
16:44:40 <dauwhe> ... if this long description is pointing to a URL, how does this work offline
16:44:42 <mgylling> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-admin/2014Oct/0099.html
16:45:03 <dauwhe> q+
16:45:27 <dauwhe> mgylling: good questions
16:45:42 <dauwhe> ... having monitored this for a decade, I'm lacking enthusiasm to start into this again
16:45:46 <dauwhe> ... it is what it is
16:46:03 <dauwhe> ... the politics are so involved that technical merit discussions are moot
16:46:11 <dauwhe> ... it doesn't solve all problems, but solves some
16:46:12 <dauwhe> q-
16:46:19 <dauwhe> ... but it's not the golden wrench
16:46:25 <mgylling> q?
16:46:27 <dauwhe> ... it's just one thing in the toolbox
16:46:45 <dauwhe> clapierre: ARIA seems like the right approach
16:46:55 <dauwhe> ... affects SVG, STEM...
16:47:11 <dauwhe> ... it was rejected for HTML
16:47:24 <dauwhe> ... will this get into a revision of HTML5 quicker than ARIA?
16:47:56 <dauwhe> ivan: not sure how this is done editorially
16:48:15 <dauwhe> ... it might be an extension
16:48:44 <dauwhe> George: the politics here is that if DPUB or a number of members come out against longdesc
16:48:57 <dauwhe> ... the public would view this as the publishing industry not wanting to support a11y
16:49:04 <dauwhe> ... that would be the appearance of it
16:49:08 <dauwhe> ... that's the wrong message
16:49:22 <dauwhe> ... I don't think we could avoid that (mis)perception
16:49:33 <dauwhe> ... if the group came out against longdesc
16:49:38 <dauwhe> ivan: I understand
16:49:48 <dauwhe> ... I don't want to evade the issue
16:50:01 <dauwhe> ... but since we're in PR, this IG is not in position to be pro/con
16:50:08 <tzviya> q+
16:50:11 <dauwhe> ... this is now in the hands of the individual members
16:50:19 <dauwhe> ... it's way too late
16:50:25 <mgylling> ack tzviya
16:50:32 <dauwhe> ... it's out of the hands of the groups
16:51:13 <dauwhe> tzviya: Let's remind people to review this, but it's not the place of DPUB to say how to vote
16:51:13 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
16:51:32 <dauwhe> mgylling: so we want to get the publishing industry to vote
16:52:51 <dauwhe> ... It's a milestone, but it's not the endpoint
16:53:00 <dauwhe> ... the more important question is what to do after longdesc?
16:53:19 <dauwhe> ... participation in PF from publishing is low
16:53:31 <dauwhe> ... maybe we should get more people to work on ARIA 1.1
16:53:59 <dauwhe> George: participation in PF and ARIA is going to be important
16:54:10 <mgylling> q?
16:54:14 <dauwhe> ... also, the implementations of those features and functions is important
16:54:22 <dauwhe> ... like in Readium
16:54:29 <mgylling> ack Bill_K
16:54:53 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: with regard to longdesc, what is the status of implementation
16:55:07 <dauwhe> mgylling: there is an implementation report published with the provisional rec
16:55:35 <dauwhe> mgylling: we're poking AC reps...
16:55:54 <dauwhe> ... how can we be more proactive moving forward, that's a matter of resource assignment
16:56:07 <mgylling> q?
16:56:09 <dauwhe> ... so now's a good time for digital publishing to get involved in ARIA
16:56:19 <mgylling> ack [IPcaller]
16:56:36 <dauwhe> ???: what happens if review for longdesc is negative?
16:56:53 <tzviya> s/???/avnesh
16:56:57 <dauwhe> mgylling: what would we practically do?
16:57:22 <dauwhe> mgylling: epub 3.1 already allows aria described-at
16:57:48 <dauwhe> ... we can't easily answer the question
16:58:09 <Bill_Kasdorf> s/epub 3.1/epub 3.0.1
16:58:11 <tzviya> q?
16:58:14 <dauwhe> ... any last questions?
16:58:38 <dauwhe> mgylling: thanks everyone
16:58:42 <Zakim> -Markus
16:58:44 <Zakim> -Luc
16:58:44 <Zakim> -Bill_Kasdorf
16:58:45 <Zakim> -Julie
16:58:45 <Zakim> -Ivan
16:58:45 <Zakim> -fjh
16:58:46 <Zakim> -tzviya
16:58:46 <Zakim> -Stearns
16:58:48 <Zakim> -MikeMiller
16:58:48 <Zakim> -bjdmeest
16:58:48 <Zakim> -clapierre
16:58:49 <Zakim> -dkaplan3
16:58:49 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
16:58:49 <dauwhe> all: bye bye bye bye bye
16:58:50 <Zakim> -George_Kerscher
16:58:51 <Zakim> -Bert
17:00:12 <clapierre> clapierre has left #dpub
17:03:05 <ivan> trackbot, end telcon
17:03:05 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
17:03:05 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been George_Kerscher, dkaplan3, [IPcaller], clapierre, MikeMiller, Ivan, +1.212.255.aaaa, tzviya, Luc, Markus, Vlad, Stearns, bjdmeest,
17:03:09 <Zakim> ... Bill_Kasdorf, Thierry, Bert, +1.347.633.aabb, Julie, fjh
17:03:13 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
17:03:13 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/12/08-dpub-minutes.html trackbot
17:03:14 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
17:03:14 <RRSAgent> I see no action items