17:24:17 RRSAgent has joined #ua 17:24:17 logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/12/04-ua-irc 17:24:19 RRSAgent, make logs public 17:24:19 Zakim has joined #ua 17:24:21 Zakim, this will be WAI_UAWG 17:24:21 ok, trackbot; I see WAI_UAWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 36 minutes 17:24:22 Meeting: User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference 17:24:22 Date: 04 December 2014 17:24:28 rrsagent, set logs public 17:31:28 Agenda+ Strategy for Completion. Setting a baseline for SCs remaining in the document. 17:31:29 Agenda+ comments - Finish MS06 - levels 17:31:31 3.1.4 spell check, should be A not AA 17:31:32 4.1.2 dom writing should be AA not A 17:31:34 5.1.1 5.1.2 web-based UA 17:31:35 Agenda+ comments - Finish MS 17:31:37 MS01 - web-based UA 17:31:38 MS02 - GL1.6 AT 17:31:40 MS03 - 1.4.1 text format separation OS/AT 17:31:41 note to jeanne - there is no MS04 comment 17:31:43 Agenda+ Action items 1037 - 1053 17:31:45 close action-1052 17:31:45 Closed action-1052. 17:55:31 WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has now started 17:55:38 +Eric 17:56:07 Eric has joined #ua 18:00:28 Greg has joined #ua 18:01:28 +Jeanne 18:02:26 Jan has joined #ua 18:02:38 Jan has left #ua 18:02:47 +Jim_Allan 18:02:54 Jan has joined #ua 18:03:06 zakim, code? 18:03:06 the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), Jan 18:03:37 +Greg_Lowney 18:04:33 +[IPcaller] 18:04:46 zakim, [IPcaller] is really Jan 18:04:46 +Jan; got it 18:05:02 scribe: allanj 18:05:12 agenda? 18:06:22 open Item 1 18:09:10 Kim has joined #ua 18:09:15 +Kim_Patch 18:09:43 proposed: if we cannot come up with a test, or no one champions an SC that it gets eliminated. 18:10:23 js: if some SC doesn't have any implementation then remove 18:10:38 jr: mark as 'at risk' for CR 18:11:28 gl: is it only no test, or are there other circumstances being debated 18:11:47 jr: sure debate, but need to focus on a test 18:12:25 kp: like what JR said...AT RISK is good. 18:12:49 js: can only have 4 AT RISK 18:13:20 js: anything beyond the 4 goes into a Best practices page on the wiki 18:14:23 1. no test or can't test - move to best practices 18:14:41 2. if test and 1 implementation - at risk 18:15:00 3. if test and no implementations - move to best practices 18:15:32 anything else... 18:15:35 +1 18:15:38 Eric_ has joined #ua 18:15:53 none heard 18:16:03 @@1implementaion 18:16:11 @@0implmentations 18:16:28 @@1implementation - would help if I spelled it right 18:16:41 @@0implementations 18:18:11 topic MS06 3.1.4 spell check, should be A not AA 18:18:49 http://jspellman.github.io/UAAG-LC-Comment/ 18:18:50 http://jspellman.github.io/UAAG-LC-Comment/ 18:20:28 MS comments email: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-uaag2-comments/2014Oct/0002.html 18:20:47 we have already done this. decided to leave it as AA 18:20:54 mobile issues 18:21:31 Topic: MS06 4.1.2 dom writing should be AA not A 18:22:53 topic: MS06 4.1.4 dom writing should be AA not A 18:23:09 MS06: 4.1.4 DOM could be AA. Providing AT developers a way to go around accessibility APIs is not always a good thing, as it results in inconsistent user experiences based on the AT developers interpretation. 18:24:49 gl: read access should be fine, but write access may be problematic ... perhaps they meant 4.1.4 and 4/1/5 18:25:46 4.1.5 18:26:29 JAWS parses the html (dom?) when the A11y API is insufficient 18:26:32 I disagree with the commenter's assertion that having different AT provide different user experiences, based on their choices of how to interpret information via the DOM or platform API or UA-specific means, is necessarily a bad thing. Supporting diverse user experiences, and allowing the user to choose the tool that best supports their needs, is generally deemed good. If the user wants to... 18:26:34 ...use a tool which provides a richer experience because it uses a richer API (rather than the bare-bones platform API), that would ideally be supported by the UA. 18:28:01 On the other hand, DOM access would only be taken advantage of by AT that special-cases the UA, and thus could be considered lower priority than API (including the platform API) that is designed to support all (or nearly all) AT with a minimum of special effort on the AT's part. 18:28:36 ja: sounds like you are still talking about read access 18:29:32 ja: unless the UA allows it the AT has no access to the DOM? is that correct? 18:32:18 when IBM was on the group they strongly wanted 4.1.4 and 4.1.5 18:32:44 gl: not sure of implementations, but strongly support level A 18:33:22 jr: is there any information on mobile and a11y api and dom access 18:34:43 ja: inclined to level A based on IBM comments - they wrote the SC 18:34:46 Action JR: To run the SC in 4.1 past the PF API subgroup. 18:34:46 Created ACTION-1056 - Run the sc in 4.1 past the pf api subgroup. [on Jan Richards - due 2014-12-11]. 18:37:47 gl: have trouble with an extension having access to the DOM and bubbling stuff up, but not allowing AT...seem counter intuitive 18:38:10 Topic: MS06 5.1.1 5.1.2 web-based UA 18:41:14 jr: we have support for media players, reader tools - epub, and others 18:42:12 JR: I thought we had agreement that Mobile apps are covered as follows: Natyive mobile browsers/native mobile media players are covered by UAAG 2.0 18:42:32 gl: mobile app vs web app. mobile app is based on platform. web apps are based in the browser 18:42:56 js: mobile and web apps are blurring 18:43:06 JR: Then we would also provide some informative UAAG 2.0 stuff to cover reader-type native apps (and reader-type web-based apps) 18:43:54 JR: Then most other native mobile apps (airline booking apps, etc.) are primarily covered by WCAG 2.0 (as will be better explained in the Note that will come out of the WCAG-UAAG task force) 18:45:34 http://cordova.apache.org/ 18:45:51 http://phonegap.com/ 18:47:36 discussion of mobile app - native app or webview component in a wrapper that works on various platforms. 18:48:34 gl: still don't see a difference between web and mobile app. 18:49:24 jr: developers excited about mobile apps...start with a webapp then wrap in a platform container to create a mobile app 18:49:27 That is, I don't really feel the distinction between native apps on mobile and non-mobile platforms, both of which can (if they choose) host web-based components. 18:50:14 s/components/components is important/ 18:52:31 http://w3c.github.io/UAAG/UAAG20-Reference/#sc_331 18:52:43 "Typically Implemented in" 18:52:58 jr: web-based user agent - when reviewed at f2f, most of the SCs were complied with in the base browser (host browser, native browser). Only 25% of SC need to be met by the web-based UA 18:52:58 UAAG Reference Editor's draft with added sections "Typically 18:52:58 Implemented in:" 18:52:58 http://w3c.github.io/UAAG/UAAG20-Reference/ 18:52:58 Success criteria that applied to web apps and mobile apps (primarily web 18:52:58 based readers) were: 18:52:58 1.4 Text Customization 18:52:59 1.8.3 Scrollbars & 1.8.4 Indicate Position in Content 18:52:59 1.8.13 Multicolumn Text Reflow 18:52:59 1.8.16 Web Page Bookmarks 18:53:00 1.9.1 Outline View 18:53:00 2.1.1 Keyboard functionality 18:53:00 2.1.3 Avoid keyboard traps 18:53:01 2.1.5 Follow Text Keyboard conventions 18:53:01 2.1.6 Make keyboard access efficient 18:53:01 2.7.1 Allow Persistent Accessibility Settings 18:53:02 2.7 Preference Settings 18:53:02 2.8.1 customize Display of Controls 18:53:02 2.10 Avoid Flashing 18:53:03 2.11 Time-Based Media 18:53:03 3.1.1 Text Entry Undo 18:53:03 3.1.2 Settings Changes can be Reversed or Confirmed 18:53:04 3.2 Documentation 18:53:04 5.1.1 Comply with WCAG 18:53:04 5.1.2 Implement Accessibility Features of Content Specifications 18:53:05 5.1.5 Allow Content Elements to be Rendered in Alternative Viewers 18:53:05 5.1.6 Enable Reporting of User Agent Accessibility Faults 18:53:28 "non-web-based UA user interfaces" 18:54:23 eh: discussion of definition of UA 18:55:00 http://w3c.github.io/UAAG/UAAG20/#def-user-agent 18:55:15 ... definition of UA has 4 architectures, but only 3 bullets 18:55:59 jr: what to folks think of Native user agent. 18:56:18 gl: platform-based UA is only in the glossary and in the conformance section 18:56:45 gl: most folks use 'native' 18:57:02 jr: like native, concern about java 18:57:56 I like the term "native UA" because native is already being widely used in the wider industry as the alternative to web-based. But as Jan points out if we want to include non-native, cross-platform intermediate platforms such as Java, then Native would not be appropriate. 18:59:52 s/include non-native, /include UA written for/ 19:00:51 the list SCs above is applicable to web-based UA 19:01:24 it is approximately 1/6 of all SCs 19:02:37 gl: would disagree with commenter that user agents only (missed the rest) 19:03:04 eh: concern for concept of base browser 19:03:24 jr: like term 'native browser' include in definition of UA 19:04:00 UAAG as a document applies to all user agents, regardless of how they are written. Being written in a particular language does not exempt it from requirements that apply to all UA. However, some specific success criteria only apply to UA written in specific technologies such as native API or HTML/Javascript, etc., and those will be identified in the document. 19:04:43 proposed: use 'native' browser in definition. Call out Java based browser and explain. 19:05:38 gl: but you write a browser in any language and run it anywhere. write a windows browser and run in a windows emulator on Linux 19:05:52 Note that even "native" applications aren't necessarily *really* native. You can write an application for the Win32 API that then may be run on top of a WINE emulator on top of Linux, etc. All applications are written for an API, and usually don't know what's under that layer. 19:07:29 jr: to write a new definition of UA to include 'native' or base/host/parent browser 19:07:39 Action: Jan Try to work "native" and "base browser" into defn of user agent 19:07:39 Created ACTION-1057 - Try to work "native" and "base browser" into defn of user agent [on Jan Richards - due 2014-12-11]. 19:10:22 Note that whether a UA is stand-alone, hosting, or hosted is independent of whether it is written as native to the operating environment, or uses a host-based API, or is web-based. 19:11:16 Resolution: Instead of removing web-based browsers from the scope of UAAG we have labeled (in the reference document) the SCs that typically are implmentesd at the web-based browser level and we will be adding a section explaining this to the UAAG Introduction and/or conformance 19:12:00 RESOLUTION: Instead of removing web-based browsers from the scope of UAAG we have labeled (in the reference document) the SCs that typically are implmentesd at the web-based browser level and we will be adding a section explaining this to the UAAG Introduction and/or conformance section.. 19:12:44 s/implementesd/implemented 19:13:58 so does this also meet MS01 19:14:19 Topic: MS01 web-based UA 19:14:38 RESOLUTION: Instead of removing web-based browsers from the scope of UAAG we have labeled (in the reference document) the SCs that typically are implmented at the web-based browser level and we will be adding a section explaining this to the UAAG Introduction and/or conformance section. 19:14:56 topic: MS02 - GL1.6 AT 19:15:45 comment MS02: Separation of assistive technologies from user agents We accept the UAAG disposition. However, we think it would be useful to take some of the text from your response to our comment and add it as a note in the document. 19:16:42 this may be editorial 19:17:55 previous comment 19:17:57 Providing guidelines for software that does synthesized speech does not equate with targeting AT, which as you've noted is already explicitly exempted. For example, early versions of the Kindle provided text to speech that was not targeting people with disabilities; if browsers provide speech output for mainstream users, they should be making the speech configurable enough to be usable by a... 19:17:58 ...wide range of individuals. When an extension adds speech output to the UA, it becomes part of the UA, and, should meet the requirements of 1.6. UAWG clarified 1.6.3 to apply only to UAs that provide synthesized speech. 19:18:28 above from Nov 2013. 19:21:30 RESOLUTION: UAWG will add a Note to the beginning of 1.6 - something like - if browsers provide speech output for mainstream users, they should be making the speech configurable enough to be usable by a wide range of individuals. When an extension adds speech output to the UA, it becomes part of the UA, and, should meet the requirements of 1.6. . 19:21:56 topic: MS03 - 1.4.1 text format separation OS/AT 19:22:26 comment MS03: Separation between browsers and OS We still believe that 1.4.1 should be separated into a level A criterion to pick up the OS settings where they exist, and level AA or level AAA criterion to go beyond the settings available on the platform. 19:22:35 action: jeanne to smith the Note prefacing 1.6 19:22:35 Created ACTION-1058 - Smith the note prefacing 1.6 [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2014-12-11]. 19:29:09 -Jan 19:30:12 Action: Jallan to review MS03 comment. fix as needed 19:30:13 Created ACTION-1059 - Review ms03 comment. fix as needed [on Jim Allan - due 2014-12-11]. 19:30:51 -Eric 19:30:52 -Kim_Patch 19:30:55 -Greg_Lowney 19:30:57 rrsagent, make minutes 19:30:57 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/12/04-ua-minutes.html allanj 19:31:59 close action-1039 19:31:59 Closed action-1039. 19:32:44 -Jeanne 19:32:46 rrsagent, make minutes 19:32:46 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/12/04-ua-minutes.html allanj 19:32:49 -Jim_Allan 19:32:50 WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has ended 19:32:50 Attendees were Eric, Jeanne, Jim_Allan, Greg_Lowney, Jan, Kim_Patch 19:32:57 zakim, please part 19:32:57 Zakim has left #ua 19:33:01 rrsagent, make minutes 19:33:01 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/12/04-ua-minutes.html allanj 19:33:21 chair: jimAllan 19:33:29 rrsagent, make minutes 19:33:29 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/12/04-ua-minutes.html allanj 19:33:35 rrsagent, please part 19:33:35 I see 4 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2014/12/04-ua-actions.rdf : 19:33:35 ACTION: JR to To run the SC in 4.1 past the PF API subgroup. [1] 19:33:35 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/12/04-ua-irc#T18-34-46 19:33:35 ACTION: Jan Try to work "native" and "base browser" into defn of user agent [2] 19:33:35 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/12/04-ua-irc#T19-07-39 19:33:35 ACTION: jeanne to smith the Note prefacing 1.6 [3] 19:33:35 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/12/04-ua-irc#T19-22-35 19:33:35 ACTION: Jallan to review MS03 comment. fix as needed [4] 19:33:35 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/12/04-ua-irc#T19-30-12