14:59:53 RRSAgent has joined #tt 14:59:53 logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/12/04-tt-irc 14:59:55 RRSAgent, make logs public 14:59:57 Zakim has joined #tt 14:59:57 Zakim, this will be TTML 14:59:57 ok, trackbot; I see SYMM_TTWG()10:00AM scheduled to start in 1 minute 14:59:58 Meeting: Timed Text Working Group Teleconference 14:59:58 Date: 04 December 2014 15:00:21 SYMM_TTWG()10:00AM has now started 15:00:27 + +1.858.882.aaaa 15:00:37 +glenn 15:00:37 zakim, aaaa is mike 15:00:37 +mike; got it 15:01:38 nigel has joined #tt 15:02:02 atai has joined #tt 15:02:06 +pal 15:02:36 +Thierry 15:02:41 +Andreas 15:03:06 +nigel 15:03:21 +jdsmith 15:03:25 jdsmith has joined #tt 15:03:43 Present: glenn, pal, Thierry, Andreas, nigel, jdsmith, mike 15:03:46 chair: nigel 15:03:50 Regrets: Frans 15:04:02 scribeNick: nigel 15:04:14 courtney has joined #tt 15:05:08 + +1.408.771.aabb 15:05:12 Present+ courtney 15:05:18 zakim, aabb is courtney 15:05:18 +courtney; got it 15:05:26 pal has joined #tt 15:05:33 Topic: This meeting 15:05:43 nigel: is there AOB? 15:05:52 nigel: We should mention the ITU-R WP6B liaison 15:07:03 Topic: IMSC 1 transition to CR 15:07:43 nigel: Pierre and I met the Director and plh and Thierry yesterday to discuss transition of IMSC 1 to CR. 15:07:49 nigel: [result not minuted] 15:08:16 action-333? 15:08:16 action-333 -- Pierre-Anthony Lemieux to Create a one pager to cover the plan for the director's meeting for taking imsc1 to cr. -- due 2014-11-27 -- PENDINGREVIEW 15:08:16 http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/333 15:08:26 close action-333 15:08:26 Closed action-333. 15:09:15 tmichel: The document will be published on Dec 9 and then I'll send the call for implementation announcement 15:09:26 ... on the same day. It will also be advertised on the W3C homepage. 15:09:37 ... The webmaster has approved the document today. 15:09:46 ... (so it is now frozen) 15:10:24 nigel and pal: Thanks everyone for the work put into this document. 15:10:28 glenn: Congratulations. 15:11:03 pal: The next step is to start compiling our test suite and test material. I plan to translate the DECE 15:11:16 ... submission into what I think is valid IMSC 1 documents - primarily a change to namespace. 15:11:38 ... Also I'm going to reach out to implementors. Would the group also be interested in a more formal 15:11:56 ... message or template message to send to those who are interested. How do we proceed? 15:12:24 tmichel: The Call for Implementations is sent out to the chairs and ac-forum and will be published on the W3C homepage. 15:12:40 ... That will be done on the day of publication. We can take that message and send it to whomever we want. 15:12:49 ... We need to wait until publication. 15:13:04 pal: Does that make it easy for people who want to contribute to know who to contact? 15:13:22 tmichel: I'll send a link. Basically it says the spec is now in CR and invites participation for implementation. 15:13:30 ... It also says how to feedback to the public mailing list. 15:13:52 pal: Thank you. Also there are Simon's outstanding comments that have been deferred. Can we discuss that 15:13:55 ... next week? 15:13:59 nigel: Okay. 15:14:14 Topic: Action Items 15:14:27 action-356? 15:14:27 action-356 -- Nigel Megitt to Request review of ttml2 pending review issues from group -- due 2014-12-04 -- PENDINGREVIEW 15:14:27 http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/356 15:14:37 close action-356 15:14:37 Closed action-356. 15:15:46 nigel: I should list the issues that have been implemented since last week, for review on 18th December, 15:15:52 ... a similar timescale. 15:16:47 glenn: The list is: 21, 213, 236, 237, 285, 286, 294. Those are all the new ones since last week. 15:17:28 action-355? 15:17:28 action-355 -- Glenn Adams to Resolve duplication between issue-357 and issue-229 -- due 2014-12-04 -- OPEN 15:17:28 http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/355 15:18:01 glenn: I've been focusing on the issues so I've not done work on this AI or any of the others. 15:18:15 action-354? 15:18:15 action-354 -- Mike Dolan to Investigate formal contact at arib -- due 2014-11-27 -- OPEN 15:18:15 http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/354 15:18:50 mike: Status is: I reached out to the executive director of ARIB and he's going to get back to me. 15:19:08 ... Somewhat unrelated, a colleague from Toshiba indicated some other practical aspects of the ARIB work 15:19:32 ... so that's interesting too. It looks like another 6 months to a year before it's out for basic UHDTV. 15:19:55 ... Hopefully before the holidays we'll have specific logistics for how to work with them to add 15:19:59 ... the extensions to TTML2. 15:21:31 Topic: Issues 15:21:51 issue-21? 15:21:51 issue-21 -- window anchor points not supported? -- pending review 15:21:51 http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/21 15:22:22 glenn: This is about positioning the root container region more flexibly, or other regions relative to it. 15:22:44 ... I'm proposing a new tts:position style attribute fairly closely related to the backgroundPosition property 15:23:06 ... in CSS 3 image backgrounds and borders. For example you could say "position the bottom edge of the 15:23:21 ... region 20% above the bottom edge of the container region". 15:23:44 ... So you could say 10% bottom, or center, which would center the region in its container region. 15:23:59 ... Take a look at that - I think it will be interesting. I've defined it so that if you have both tts:origin and 15:24:18 ... tts:position then in a TTML2 context you'd ignore tts:origin and use tts:position, otherwise you can 15:24:32 ... still use tts:origin as a fallback. The presentation in that case may end up different of course. 15:24:48 q+ 15:24:53 ack pal 15:25:07 q+ 15:25:23 pal: Do we really need this feature? Positioning has been problematic for a number of implementors in 15:25:32 ... the past so I'm concerned about the complexity. What is the use case? 15:25:49 glenn: I'm responding to the issue - someone requested anchor points so I've provided a solution. 15:26:13 pal: This issue was opened in 2008. 15:26:37 glenn: We should bear in mind that there are general uses for TTML2 not just captioning and subtitling. 15:26:57 ... There are features that need similar features. We shouldn't confuse implementation complexity with 15:27:05 q+ 15:27:16 ... syntax complexity. Many browsers implement the CSS feature too, so there are implementations. 15:27:32 ack mike 15:28:02 mike: How would this work? If you have overflow, extent etc what would happen? Would the anchor remain 15:28:15 ... where it was set. That needs to be addressed. 15:28:32 glenn: This only addresses position of the region, not extent or overflow, which are separate. 15:28:45 ... In order to compute the position you have to have resolved the extent already. The overflow issue 15:28:56 ... is independent of positioning and sizing. So this is only related to position. 15:29:12 mike: I think the combination of the two could result in some interesting effects depending on how it is 15:29:15 ... defined. 15:29:33 glenn: There are some extensions coming to the extent attribute, including the ability to say it should be 15:29:47 ... computed so that the result is contained in the outer containing block, for example if you're sizing the 15:30:04 ... root container region to ensure it fits in the available area of the related media object, and needs to be 15:30:23 ... in the center, you'd specify extent="contain" and position="center" and the semantics would work 15:30:46 ... alongside another new parameter storageAspectRatio which constrains the related media object's 15:30:57 ... shape. Then the root container region is positioned correctly. 15:31:23 mike: I think the original issue (could have been me, I'm not sure!) needs to be mapped from 708 semantics 15:31:41 ... into this, whatever we end up doing. I share some of pal's concerns re complexity. 15:32:00 glenn: I agree, and would point out that it's bad design in my opinion to throw out possible features early 15:32:16 ... in the process. It's better to propose solutions that can be considered. As the process moves forward 15:32:34 ... we can see if they will be implemented and do what is needed, rather than cutting them out too soon. 15:32:49 ... This also establishes IPR precedent and commitment by putting them into the FPWD even if they don't 15:33:02 ... end up in the final version. This is the wrong time to discuss complexity. 15:33:05 ack atai 15:33:23 atai: We discussed anchor points in the EBU group some years ago with Sean Hayes. We mostly discussed 15:33:44 ... positioning of the region within the root container. We didn't talk about positioning the root container 15:34:02 ... in relation to the media object. Just a note. I'm not sure if we have an option for simplification there. 15:34:32 glenn: THere are three applications: 1) positioning the root container region wrt the display or the media object. 15:34:51 ... For example a 16:9 display showing a 2:1 media - you may want to position the subtitles in the black 15:35:01 ... bar beneath the video. 15:35:11 ... 2) Positioning the region within the root container region. 15:35:32 ... 3) Positioning background images relative to content or a region. The border rectangle, padding 15:35:41 ... rectangle and content rectangle need to be considered. 15:35:56 issue-213? 15:35:56 issue-213 -- Advance notice of deprecation for textOutline -- pending review 15:35:56 http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/213 15:36:29 glenn: There's no action - I don't propose that we don't deprecate textOutline. I'll be drafting the 15:37:05 ... orthogonal text shadow feature, but they're independent of each other. 15:37:19 ... It's already in TTML1 so I propose to keep it. 15:37:43 mike: As long as we end up having the 708 features that can't be emulated with textOutline (drop shadow support). 15:38:10 glenn: The way we defined textOutline is that it extends perpendicular to the tangent of the outline of the 15:38:37 ... glyph at any given point, inner or outer. textShadow is an x-y offset vector that translates the outline 15:38:45 ... without changing its size. 15:39:17 mike: My concern isn't textOutline but making sure we have text shadow. 15:39:50 courtney: I think that means you won't be able to support all the FCC regulations in TTML. 15:40:07 glenn: I'm proposing not deprecating, so both are available, and I believe it will support all of the options. 15:40:17 ... We will need to go through all of the 708 edge styles and verify that they can be achieved. 15:41:20 PROPOSAL: Close this issue. 15:41:31 close issue-213 15:41:31 Closed issue-213. 15:41:42 issue-236? 15:41:42 issue-236 -- Character spacing, i.e. letter-spacing -- pending review 15:41:42 http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/236 15:42:17 glenn: this allows introducing tracking in the same way as CSS letter spacing. I've introduced it. 15:42:31 issue-237? 15:42:31 issue-237 -- Inline space -- pending review 15:42:31 http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/237 15:42:50 glenn: This is similar - inline space allows the width of an inline box that contains some glyphs, 15:43:07 ... for example a span with some content in it within a paragraph. I might want to say 14% of the region 15:43:24 ... width, etc. It turns out that in CSS and XSL-FO there are both width and height properties that apply 15:43:37 ... to content elements however the semantics are such that for inline non-replaced elements like span, 15:43:56 ... width and height are ignored! So, what to do? It turns out there's a nice mechanism in CSS which I'd 15:44:20 ... overlooked for a while, called display:inline-block. While you can't say that an inline block is a 15:44:33 ... particular width you can say that a block in an inline context is a particular width and height. So I 15:44:49 ... introduced those concepts, and said that they magically turn spans into inline blocks to which width 15:45:07 ... and height can apply. I've tested it in various browsers and it does exactly what you'd think it does. 15:45:40 issue-285? 15:45:40 issue-285 -- Align rendered rows within a region to each other, and the set to the region -- pending review 15:45:40 http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/285 15:45:59 glenn: This is the long standing EBU request for multiRowAlign. We've played around with some options. 15:46:12 ... We looked at flexbox, but I recently realised that the inline block mechanism I just described can 15:46:31 ... satisfy the same requirement. E.g. A paragraph with a single span in it, the p being the whole width of 15:46:48 ... the root container region, and you want to centre the text, but align any broken lines left or right to 15:47:06 ... each other within that centre-aligned paragraph. The inline block mechanism allows that too. 15:47:27 ... You can specify a separate alignment on the content of the span and that will allow two alignments, 15:47:42 ... one to the content of the paragraph and the other to the span. My experiments on browsers show 15:48:05 ... this works as desired. If you specify a textAlign on span, which is new, then it results in the promotion of 15:48:30 ... the span to an inline block for display purposes. That would allow for example left justified lines in a 15:48:35 ... center aligned paragraph. 15:48:55 q+ 15:49:02 ack atai 15:49:14 glenn: This separates out the concepts so the existing semantics don't have to change. 15:49:28 atai: This is an interesting approach that the EBU group should review. I'm not sure it matches the intended 15:50:48 ... presentation - does it align multiple lines of text with the longest line in the group? For example 15:51:04 ... a centred first (and longest) line, with the second line right aligned to it? Would this work? 15:51:34 glenn: I'm not sure. I need a written down sample or example to check. My proposal does work when 15:51:58 ... the line breaks are defined with br elements. If two lines are wrapped in a span with textAlign="right" 15:52:16 ... and contained in a paragraph with textAlign="center" then it would first layout the block right aligned 15:52:32 ... and then centre the whole block as the paragraph. So this would have the result you want. 15:52:39 atai: ok 15:52:56 glenn: I'd be interested in scenarios where this might not work, according to my reading of the EBU spec. 15:53:33 issue-286? 15:53:33 issue-286 -- Extend the background area behind rendered text to improve readability -- pending review 15:53:33 http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/286 15:54:00 glenn: I fixed that by allowing padding to be assigned to a span, and saying if done, it must use 15:54:06 ... box-decoration-break:clone semantics. 15:54:09 issue-294? 15:54:10 issue-294 -- Style attribute to prevent overflow by shrinking text to fit on a line -- pending review 15:54:10 http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/294 15:54:29 glenn: This is one that I believe John Birch specified and I said that the proposal was about content 15:54:46 ... fitting, e.g. automatically reducing the font size to fit the content. Nobody in CSS land or elsewhere 15:55:05 ... is doing that, so it would be highly complex to implement. However the region can now be shrink-fit 15:55:30 ... to the content. I've proposed a new value for tts:extent: "fit-content" that comes out of a CSS3 spec. 15:55:37 issue-307? 15:55:37 issue-307 -- Conformance language and processor profile rather than content profile. -- pending review 15:55:37 http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/307 15:56:37 nigel: Since relevant changes have been made I propose to close this with no further action. 15:56:48 close issue-307 15:56:48 Closed issue-307. 15:57:52 Topic: AOB 15:58:10 nigel: Please note the liaison from ITU-R WP 6B which came in earlier today and went to member-tt. 15:59:12 nigel: They would like a liaison I think, want to know about our work on WebVTT and IMSC 1 and how 15:59:25 ... they relate to each other. They also have some detail questions on IMSC 1. 15:59:36 pal: I'm happy to draft a first response on those IMSC 1 questions. 15:59:54 Action: pal Draft response to ITU-R liaison re IMSC 1 questions. 15:59:55 Created ACTION-358 - Draft response to itu-r liaison re imsc 1 questions. [on Pierre-Anthony Lemieux - due 2014-12-11]. 16:00:07 glenn: I notice the liaison also mentions the ARIB-TT development. 16:00:23 nigel: Yes, I encourage everyone to have a look at the liaison document. 16:01:52 -courtney 16:01:53 -glenn 16:01:53 -pal 16:01:56 -Andreas 16:01:57 -mike 16:01:59 -nigel 16:02:22 nigel: For next week we have 1 hour set aside and a lot of issues to close on TTML2, hopefully, so in the 16:02:41 ... interests of time please could everyone discuss them offline on the reflector as much as possible, so 16:03:16 ... we only have to discuss the minimum number of questions? 16:03:23 [adjourns meeting] 16:03:32 rrsagent, make logs public 16:03:36 rrsagent, generate minutes 16:03:36 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/12/04-tt-minutes.html nigel 16:06:43 ScribeOptions: -final -noEmbedDiagnostics 16:06:46 rrsagent, generate minutes 16:06:46 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/12/04-tt-minutes.html nigel 16:22:40 -Thierry 16:34:52 -jdsmith 16:34:53 SYMM_TTWG()10:00AM has ended 16:34:53 Attendees were +1.858.882.aaaa, glenn, mike, pal, Thierry, Andreas, nigel, jdsmith, +1.408.771.aabb, courtney 16:57:54 glenn_ has joined #tt 17:49:47 Zakim has left #tt