16:54:39 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #dnt
16:54:39 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/12/03-dnt-irc
16:54:41 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
16:54:41 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #dnt
16:54:42 <npdoty> regrets+ schunter
16:54:43 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be TRACK
16:54:43 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see T&S_Track(dnt)12:00PM scheduled to start in 6 minutes
16:54:44 <trackbot> Meeting: Tracking Protection Working Group Teleconference
16:54:44 <trackbot> Date: 03 December 2014
16:54:53 <npdoty> chair: justin, cargill
16:57:28 <Zakim> T&S_Track(dnt)12:00PM has now started
16:57:35 <Zakim> +npdoty
16:57:37 <Zakim> +rvaneijk
16:59:58 <npdoty> agenda+ TPE Last Call Comments
17:00:04 <npdoty> agenda+ Compliance
17:00:07 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
17:00:09 <npdoty> agenda+ AOB
17:00:13 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
17:00:35 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
17:00:46 <moneill2_> zakim, [IPCaller] is me
17:00:47 <Zakim> +moneill2_; got it
17:01:03 <justin> justin has joined #dnt
17:01:24 <Zakim> +Chris_Pedigo
17:01:33 <Zakim> +hefferjr
17:01:43 <ChrisPedigoDCN> ChrisPedigoDCN has joined #dnt
17:02:24 <npdoty> volunteers to scribe? shouldn't be very strenuous
17:02:39 <Zakim> +dsinger
17:03:05 <WileyS> WileyS has joined #dnt
17:03:27 <Zakim> -moneill2_
17:03:29 <Zakim> +Carl_Cargill
17:03:37 <Zakim> + +1.202.407.aaaa
17:03:39 <justin> zakim, who is on the phone?
17:03:40 <Zakim> On the phone I see rvaneijk, npdoty, Chris_Pedigo, hefferjr, dsinger, Carl_Cargill, +1.202.407.aaaa
17:03:43 <justin> zakim, aaaa is me
17:03:43 <Zakim> +justin; got it
17:03:47 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
17:03:56 <moneill2_> zakim, [IPCaller] is me
17:03:57 <Zakim> +moneill2_; got it
17:04:19 <npdoty> scribenick: npdoty
17:04:40 <npdoty> justin: only a few things left open to discuss, talk about process at the end of the call
17:04:46 <npdoty> ... first checkin with dsinger
17:05:00 <npdoty> ... resolving javascript issues. add Mike's expiry parameters?
17:05:06 <npdoty> dsinger: sorry, not yet
17:05:18 <npdoty> ... know what to do in all except one case, about origin/effective-script-origin
17:05:26 <npdoty> ... if anyone else wants to weigh in, that would be useful
17:05:31 <npdoty> justin: anyone with an opinion?
17:05:32 <Zakim> +WileyS
17:05:34 <npdoty> q+
17:05:46 <npdoty> dsinger: whether document.domain should affect the origin or not
17:05:55 <Zakim> + +1.949.573.aabb
17:06:05 <npdoty> justin: send an email to the group about planning to go with existing unless anyone else objects
17:06:06 <WileyS> +1 to staying with Roy's approach
17:06:20 <moneill2_> +q
17:06:25 <justin> ack npd
17:06:38 <justin> npdoty: What's the functional difference between the two?
17:06:52 <justin> ack mo
17:06:54 <npdoty> Zakim, who is making noise?
17:07:04 <Zakim> npdoty, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: justin (9%), +1.949.573.aabb (9%)
17:07:15 <npdoty> moneill2_: when you load the script from a library, doesn't matter which origin it's loaded from
17:07:33 <npdoty> ... the origin of the site you're on (scheme, host, port)
17:08:09 <npdoty> ... depends on how you access subdomains. the javascript library could set document.domain to remove a subdomain
17:08:28 <npdoty> ... can give a different domain off of the main domain
17:08:33 <npdoty> q+
17:08:53 <npdoty> ... anne's objection was less about the definition of the term, but a problem about using cookie-like rules with subdomains
17:09:08 <npdoty> ... going out of favor because some subdomains are controlled by different parties, etc.
17:09:37 <Zakim> -moneill2_
17:09:45 <npdoty> ... want to get the standard out. <lost connection>
17:09:45 <justin> ack npd
17:10:01 <justin> npdoty: Thanks to Mike for the explanation.
17:10:13 <dsinger> dsinger has joined #dnt
17:10:13 <Zakim> +[Apple]
17:10:19 <Zakim> -dsinger
17:10:25 <moneill2_> my phone is playing up,
17:10:38 <dsinger> zakim, [apple] has dsinger
17:10:38 <Zakim> +dsinger; got it
17:10:44 <justin> npdoty: Good reasons for following cookie-like rules.
17:10:58 <npdoty> npdoty: +1, keep as is to keep cookie-like setting
17:11:04 <WileyS> +1 to David - let's not increase scope
17:11:07 <npdoty> dsinger: right, keep current practice, not effect new practice
17:11:26 <vincent> vincent has joined #dnt
17:11:26 <npdoty> justin: sounds like we're all in agreement on that. dsinger, please send a note about that
17:11:44 <npdoty> issue-262?
17:11:44 <trackbot> issue-262 -- guidance regarding server responses and timing -- pending review
17:11:44 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/tracking-protection/track/issues/262
17:11:47 <dsinger> issue-262?
17:11:47 <trackbot> issue-262 -- guidance regarding server responses and timing -- pending review
17:11:47 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/tracking-protection/track/issues/262
17:11:55 <npdoty> justin: we were expecting a submission from fielding on this
17:12:23 <Zakim> +vincent
17:12:30 <npdoty> fielding: total slacker ;) same plan as last time, but haven't had a chance to send email
17:12:33 <Zakim> +??P37
17:12:39 <npdoty> Zakim, aabb is fielding
17:12:39 <Zakim> +fielding; got it
17:12:41 <dsinger> zakim, who is on the phone?
17:12:41 <Zakim> On the phone I see rvaneijk, npdoty, Chris_Pedigo, hefferjr, Carl_Cargill, justin, WileyS, fielding, [Apple], vincent, ??P37
17:12:41 <Zakim> [Apple] has dsinger
17:12:54 <vincent> yes
17:13:05 <moneill2_> zakim, P37 is me
17:13:05 <Zakim> sorry, moneill2_, I do not recognize a party named 'P37'
17:13:17 <rvaneijk> yep, but vincent (and I) prepared something in the mean time
17:13:26 <vincent> sent a first version but I'll adapt to Roy's proposal
17:13:28 <npdoty> justin: know vincent and rvaneijk were looking at a proposal as well
17:13:42 <moneill2_> zakim, ??P37 is me
17:13:42 <Zakim> +moneill2_; got it
17:13:50 <moneill2_> zakim, mute me
17:13:51 <Zakim> moneill2_ should now be muted
17:14:03 <npdoty> justin: did you review nick's changes regarding issue-203?
17:14:11 <Walt_Michel> Walt_Michel has joined #DNT
17:14:12 <justin> q?
17:14:24 <npdoty> fielding: yes, don't recall issues with that, but will remind myself and send issues to the mailing list
17:14:39 <npdoty> justin: nick, can you explain again?
17:14:47 <Zakim> +WaltMichel
17:14:52 <npdoty> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-tracking/2014Nov/0034.html
17:14:56 <vincent> npdoty, here is the link: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-tracking/2014Dec/0004.html
17:14:59 <adrianba> adrianba has joined #dnt
17:15:26 <justin> npdoty: I tried to address fielding's concern that a party might not always know what it is.
17:15:55 <justin> npdoty: Tried to adapt fielding's langauge about resources that are intended to be used in a first or third party capacity.
17:16:04 <justin> npdoty: separate section of "unknowing" collection.
17:16:51 <justin> npdoty: I had hoped that would address fielding's concerns about sites' not always knowing. And I still want to merge fielding's indication about indicating tracking status.
17:17:23 <npdoty> justin: hope fielding can review later today. sounds like we're fairly close conceptually. hopefully we can hammer out the language on email
17:17:51 <npdoty> justin: one more question for roy, proposed response about validation or indication of who set the dnt signal
17:17:57 <npdoty> fielding: sometime today
17:18:01 <npdoty> thanks
17:18:37 <npdoty> justin: auditability language that walter had proposed
17:18:43 <WileyS> Could someone please send the link to the CfO?
17:18:46 <npdoty> ... Nick had announced a Call for Objections on that a couple of weeks ago
17:18:56 <npdoty> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/49311/tpwg-auditing-235/
17:18:58 <WileyS> I would like to simply cut/paste our email arguments into the CfO.
17:19:00 <fielding> fielding has joined #dnt
17:19:02 <npdoty> (also included in the agenda)
17:19:03 <WileyS> Thank you Nick
17:19:06 <WileyS> I do
17:19:09 <npdoty> justin: if people need a couple more days?
17:19:13 <fielding> I can put something in today
17:19:22 <WileyS> That works
17:19:26 <npdoty> justin: extend til Friday?
17:19:57 <npdoty> may ping walter about that timing as well
17:20:03 <Zakim> -rvaneijk
17:20:11 <npdoty> q?
17:20:15 <npdoty> q+
17:20:24 <justin> ack npd
17:20:32 <vincent> ok
17:20:51 <rvaneijk> could you please repeat the question in irc?
17:20:53 <npdoty> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-tracking/2014Dec/0004.html
17:20:57 <justin> ack vincent on issue-262
17:21:04 <Zakim> +rvaneijk
17:21:08 <npdoty> npdoty: we heard a proposal from vincent on 262, do we want to explain it?
17:21:43 <npdoty> vincent: if a server is a gateway, it should send a G response. are there other use cases besides real-time bidding where it will apply?
17:21:56 <npdoty> ... if a server knows that it won't transmit data related to the current transaction, then it can send an N response
17:22:12 <justin> q?
17:22:16 <npdoty> ... G would stand for "gateway"
17:22:57 <npdoty> justin: requirements regarding winning/losing bidders?
17:23:16 <fielding> if adopted, I would rephrase it as a requirement not to send G if the server is not forwarding tracking data
17:23:27 <npdoty> vincent: we assume that the user won't receive a direct response from the losing bidders, only the winning bidder.
17:23:58 <npdoty> justin: how would this differ from fielding?
17:24:16 <rvaneijk> the proposal may change, depending on roy's proposal
17:24:18 <npdoty> vincent: not sure that it will (that's why I waited until today), but will adapt based on what I hear from roy
17:24:40 <fielding> I think that is a reasonable clarification, though my presumption would be that a gateway deosn't know what might become tracking data
17:24:49 <npdoty> justin: let's try to iterate on the mailing list to close these substantive issues on the mailing list
17:25:02 <npdoty> ... so that we don't need to have regular calls next year, except as necessary
17:25:04 <fielding> s/deosn't/doesn't/
17:25:35 <npdoty> Topic: Process
17:25:47 <npdoty> justin: chairs need to send out response about comments that don't raise new issues
17:26:45 <justin> npdoty: To transition out of LC, we need to reach out to everyone who wrote comments in some public way, take all the issue resolutions and then take to the director.
17:27:16 <npdoty> justin: chairs can send email to individuals about resolutions of issues
17:28:17 <npdoty> npdoty: need the group's agreement to advance to Candidate Recommendation, and address any outstanding formal objections
17:28:54 <npdoty> justin: regarding Compliance to Last Call, did that process before, anything different?
17:28:55 <justin> q?
17:29:11 <rvaneijk> q+
17:29:15 <justin> ack rv
17:29:16 <npdoty> npdoty: yes, similar steps. we got quite a few comments, so we seem to be getting that outreach reasonably well
17:29:27 <npdoty> justin: any other comments regarding process?
17:29:35 <fielding> do we need more use cases describedin TPE?
17:30:01 <npdoty> rvaneijk: regarding stakeholders from European @@@, if we get new requirements from them
17:30:18 <npdoty> s/@@@/E DAA/
17:30:24 <npdoty> justin: what might there issues be?
17:30:51 <npdoty> rvaneijk: they haven't been involved at all. they might be interested in learning whether Do Not Track would work for them or not.
17:31:31 <npdoty> justin: did receive Last Call comments from trade associations. was there overlap with IAB EU people?
17:32:00 <npdoty> WileyS: IAB UK overlap with EDAA (Kimon, who had been participating, not involved)
17:32:14 <npdoty> thanks for the explanation
17:32:42 <fielding> we can only address comments after they have been sent to us, so there is nothing we can do about people who wait until it is too late. There are plenty of later stages in which comments might be addressed, particurlarly if they are about technical limitations.
17:32:42 <npdoty> justin: have had opportunities to weigh in, a Last Call on TCS would also give that opportunity
17:33:22 <npdoty> ... Candidate Recommendation wouldn't be finished either, even if we believe it's ready for implementation
17:33:22 <justin> q?
17:33:56 <npdoty> justin: regarding use cases?
17:34:14 <npdoty> fielding: in general, I think lots of people would like more examples and use cases, never got around to writing into the document
17:34:34 <npdoty> ... is it okay for me to add more to that non-normative section without disrupting Last Call?
17:34:45 <npdoty> justin: sounds okay to me
17:34:53 <npdoty> ... as long as people have the opportunity to see
17:35:11 <npdoty> ... useful for explaining what we're tying to accomplish
17:35:19 <justin> q?
17:35:30 <justin> q?
17:35:38 <npdoty> any other issues for this call?
17:35:55 <WileyS> Thank you!
17:36:01 <npdoty> three issues, I'll try to push people on the mailing list
17:36:15 <Zakim> -Chris_Pedigo
17:36:15 <Zakim> -[Apple]
17:36:16 <Zakim> -hefferjr
17:36:16 <Zakim> -justin
17:36:17 <npdoty> justin: a couple more calls in December, but probably not talk on Christmas Eve
17:36:17 <Zakim> -WaltMichel
17:36:17 <Zakim> -WileyS
17:36:17 <Zakim> -moneill2_
17:36:17 <Zakim> -Carl_Cargill
17:36:19 <Zakim> -fielding
17:36:19 <Zakim> -vincent
17:36:19 <Zakim> -rvaneijk
17:36:20 <npdoty> thanks all
17:36:24 <Zakim> -npdoty
17:36:26 <Zakim> T&S_Track(dnt)12:00PM has ended
17:36:26 <Zakim> Attendees were npdoty, rvaneijk, moneill2_, Chris_Pedigo, hefferjr, dsinger, Carl_Cargill, +1.202.407.aaaa, justin, WileyS, +1.949.573.aabb, vincent, fielding, WaltMichel
17:36:29 <npdoty> trackbot, end meeting
17:36:29 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
17:36:29 <Zakim> sorry, trackbot, I don't know what conference this is
17:36:37 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
17:36:37 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/12/03-dnt-minutes.html trackbot
17:36:38 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
17:36:38 <RRSAgent> I see no action items
17:36:39 <vincent> thanks npdoty for scribing