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16:01:50 Zakim, this will be 63342
16:01:50 ok, trackbot; I see HTML_WG()11:00AM scheduled to start now
16:01:51 Meeting: HTML Media Task Force Teleconference
16:01:51 Date: 02 December 2014
16:01:56 scribe: joesteele
16:02:53 ddorwin has joined #html-media
16:03:38 BobLund has joined #html-media
16:04:08 agenda: discussion with Sergei re: 27055
16:04:41 chair: joesteele
16:04:54 topic: Bug 27055
16:05:26 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=27055
16:05:34 Surfacinb License to the User
16:05:48 s/Surfacinb/Surfacing/
16:06:15 twirl: someone times the license is not exposed to the end user
16:06:21 ... many times this is about caching
16:06:29 ... many possible states of the cache
16:06:39 other topics like that --
16:06:56 ... changing aspect ratio of screen might cause a problem -- CDM might prohibit
16:07:13 ... Beta from Microsoft counts folks in room and could prohibit based on that
16:07:37 ... an ability to read and verify the license would be useful to let the user know what restrictions there are
16:07:46 ... and what they can do with this content
16:07:58 .... e.g. caching is prohibited, can't store encrypted frames
16:08:16 ... can imagine an attack against the user because they can't play this content
16:08:36 ... in our opinion -- profitable for all terms to somehow be standardized and presented to the user and UA
16:08:49 ... we don't want to provide the solution, see our role as asking questions
16:08:51 q?
16:09:02 Q+
16:09:27 markw:
16:09:45 markw: reiterate the points I made in the thread
16:09:51 s/Beta from Microsoft counts folks in room/There is a Kinect patent: count a number of people in a room
16:10:02 ... there are technical restrictions in the license that are not the same as what the user expects
16:10:14 ... may be more restrictive than what the product does overall
16:10:29 ... for example to allow you to have preview licenses
16:10:44 ... example to allow short amounts of content to be viewed before license is acquired
16:10:54 ... not sure how this could be displayed usefully
16:11:08 twirl: yes we discussed that in the bug
16:11:17 ... there are product and technical restrictions
16:11:25 ... they could be different
16:11:47 ... but things that annoy the user the most are things hardware could do but are prohibited from doing so
16:11:56 ... this needs some solution
16:12:06 ... e.g. you have one hour life
16:12:08 q+
16:12:14 ack markw
16:12:29 twirl: for example what the user can do to extend the content
16:12:45 ... as a consumer it is worst thing to be done
16:13:02 ... e.g. when terms changed and leds to misunderstatdning
16:13:12 q+
16:13:21 ... those restrictions must be presented to user
16:13:48 markw: as an example if the page provided 100 preview license, what would be the behavior?
16:13:59 twirl: we could present that to the user
16:14:08 markw: what about 100?
16:14:25 twirl: that seems like a weird example
16:14:32 ... could be solved by correct UI
16:14:38 markw: that is an actual example
16:15:13 ... I think the problem of the services telling the users what restrictions are applied is a real problem, but not sure how it could be technically enforced
16:15:31 ... don't think that would fly as a technical solution
16:15:46 twirl: I think would be up to the user agent how deal with that
16:16:08 ... the history of DRM is very concrete here here
16:17:55 joesteele: I think one issue being raised is that for this to be enforced it would require the UA to enforce all the same restrictions as the CDM
16:18:02 ... essentially in parallel
16:18:04 ack me
16:18:50 pal: today there is a lot of commercially protected content which vendors provide information about the restrictions on the content
16:19:11 ... no merchant wants the user to be disappointed e.g. by not being able to watch content on a plane
16:19:25 ... merchant is driven commercially to want to display the right information to the user
16:19:40 ... not sure why the standard should include this mechanism
16:20:17 twirl: we are bringing DRM into the web where everyone can use it. we will have many more implementations, many of which will not follow the regular commercial pattern
16:20:39 ... don't think the example of the existing large providers works for this
16:21:02 pal: a system that does display that information to the user would not be succefully so why would they do it
16:21:10 twirl: I don't agree with that
16:21:39 pal: HTML std does not prevent folks from putting all page content in the H1 header, but folks don't do it becuase it is a bad experience
16:21:49 ... strong incentive to commuicate to the user
16:22:03 twirl: fraud is a possible use case and concern
16:22:07 q?
16:22:11 ack pal
16:22:38 pal: I don't see a big change from what is possible today
16:23:00 twirl: that is partly true, there is no means to control content other than plugins
16:23:09 q+
16:23:09 ... this would be a big change
16:23:32 ... the history of DRM has many examples of where customers are perceived by companies
16:23:40 ... trying to find a way to solve that problem
16:24:07 ... users devices being controlled, users licenses being removed
16:24:14 s/perceicved/deceived/
16:24:23 s/perceived/deceived/
16:25:50 joesteele: is your concern mainly about fraud? or the possibility of a company making a choice which is not apparent to the user?
16:26:21 twirl: both actually -- this is being opened dramatically so that everyone can protect content, this will mean this will happen a lot more
16:26:51 ... might just be a misunderstanding, but the result is still that a large number of people being disappointed
16:27:38 ... the problem is generally that the content provider has a very large scope of rights, but people never thought that content providers has these rights -- e.g. purge content from cache
16:27:48 ... if they had realized, this would have caused an issue
16:27:53 q?
16:28:39 markw: I just wanted to refute the idea that this is new functionality, this is just a new way of exposing this functionality just making it more standarized via the video tag
16:28:58 twirl: that is our greatest concern, we don't want another