19:55:23 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aapi
19:55:23 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/12/02-aapi-irc
19:55:25 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs member
19:55:25 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #aapi
19:55:27 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAI_PF
19:55:27 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see WAI_PFWG(AAPI)3:00PM scheduled to start in 5 minutes
19:55:28 <trackbot> Meeting: Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference
19:55:28 <trackbot> Date: 02 December 2014
19:56:04 <Zakim> WAI_PFWG(AAPI)3:00PM has now started
19:56:11 <Zakim> +[GVoice]
19:56:19 <clown> zakim, GVoice is Joseph_Scheuhammer
19:56:19 <Zakim> +Joseph_Scheuhammer; got it
19:56:27 <clown> zakim, I am Joseph_Scheuhammer
19:56:27 <Zakim> ok, clown, I now associate you with Joseph_Scheuhammer
19:56:45 <clown> chair:  Joseph_Scheuhammer
19:56:55 <clown> agenda: this
19:57:04 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-1396: (Cynthia) UIA mappings for role grid to convey beyond table.
19:57:13 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-1104: (Cynthia) Define the UIA mapping for aria-describedby when the element does not exist in the accessibility tree such as when css: display:none applies.
19:57:21 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-1311: (Joseph) Clarify that presentation role should preserve separation of nodes within tables/lists.
19:57:32 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-1254/ACTION-1444/ACTION-1445: (Joseph, Cynthia) Consume/cancel keydown event when keypress is consumed/cancelled.
19:59:01 <clown> agenda-
19:59:32 <Zakim> + +1.650.738.aaaa
20:00:20 <clown> agenda 3 = ACTION-1311/ACTION-1444/ACTION-1445: (Joseph, Cynthia) Clarify that presentation role should preserve separation of nodes within tables/lists.
20:00:46 <clown> agenda 4 = agenda+ ACTION-1254: (Joseph) Consume/cancel keydown event when keypress is consumed/cancelled.
20:01:07 <Zakim> +Joanmarie_Diggs
20:01:08 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-1409: (Joanie):  Monitor progress of bug against atk in gnome's bugzilla requesting new position, level, and other api be added (https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=727453)
20:01:20 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-1531/ISSUE-435:  (David) investigate ia2 mapping of role="text".
20:01:30 <clown> agenda+ Continue with ACTIONs/ISSUEs for core-aam 1.1:  https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/products/23
20:01:37 <clown> agenda+ be done.
20:02:07 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/12/02-aapi-minutes.html clown
20:06:24 <joanie> scribenick: joanie
20:06:34 <joanie> regrets+ David_Bolter
20:06:38 <richardschwerdtfeger> richardschwerdtfeger has joined #aapi
20:06:42 <joanie> Zakim, take up item 4
20:06:42 <Zakim> agendum 4. "agenda+ ACTION-1254: (Joseph) Consume/cancel keydown event when keypress is consumed/cancelled." taken up
20:06:47 <clown> action-1245?
20:06:47 <trackbot> action-1245 -- Michael Cooper to Review CSS Cascading and Inheritance Level 3 http://www.w3.org/TR/2013/WD-css-cascade-3-20130730/ -- due 2013-08-14 -- CLOSED
20:06:47 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1245
20:06:57 <clown> action-1254
20:06:57 <trackbot> action-1254 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to Work with WebApps working group to ensure that DOM spec states when a keydown event is consumed/cancelled that the corresponding keypress event is also cancelled. -- due 2014-11-25 -- OPEN
20:06:57 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1254
20:07:00 <joanie> JS: I meant to do this this morning.
20:07:02 <Zakim> +Rich_Schwerdtfeger
20:07:11 <joanie> JS: It will be done by next week.
20:08:01 <joanie> JS: [Reads action text]
20:08:17 <joanie> JS: I was supposed to send an email to Travis L.
20:08:25 <joanie> JS: I was also going to create a test case.
20:08:37 <joanie> JS: I'll put the due date off 1 week.
20:08:49 <joanie> JS: [Requests Travis L's email address]
20:09:10 <joanie> JS: If not, I'll try to find out from Cynthia or look through the WebApps group members and see if I can find it.
20:09:22 <joanie> Zakim, take up item 5
20:09:22 <Zakim> agendum 5. "ACTION-1409: (Joanie):  Monitor progress of bug against atk in gnome's bugzilla requesting new position, level, and other api be added
20:09:24 <Zakim> ... (https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=727453)" taken up [from clown]
20:09:29 <clown> action-1409?
20:09:29 <trackbot> action-1409 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Monitor progress of bug against atk in gnome's bugzilla requesting new position, level, and other api be added (https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=727453) -- due 2014-11-25 -- OPEN
20:09:29 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1409
20:10:36 <richardschwerdtfeger> scribe: Rich
20:11:54 <richardschwerdtfeger> joanie: in ATK object you have room for one more method and you don’t want it to be group positions
20:12:16 <clown> s/joanie:/joseph:/
20:12:20 <joanie> scribenick: joanie
20:12:41 <joanie> JD: In ATK we have exactly one more new method we can add to AtkObject.
20:12:42 <clown> s/group positions/groupPosition()/
20:13:06 <joanie> JD: I really, really, really want to add subrole support to ATK -- more badly than I need group position API.
20:13:37 <joanie> JD: Therefore, because of the lack of ability to add further API to AtkObject, GNOME plans to create a new "Accessible" interface (AtkAccessible?)
20:13:56 <joanie> JD: That will solve the "lack of pads" problem. But it will not happen this cycle, very likely.
20:14:32 <joanie> JS: So the conclusion is that for now you are going to leave these as object attributes?
20:14:35 <joanie> JD: Yes.
20:14:57 <joanie> JS: Is the new accessible interface going to have group position, etc?
20:15:03 <joanie> JD: Yes. And much, much more.
20:15:26 <joanie> JD: Because the interface approach doesn't have "pads". We can add new API until the cows come home.
20:15:57 <joanie> JS: I understand all that. To bring it to a close?
20:16:01 <joanie> JD: Two months please.
20:16:36 <joanie> JD: I will try to tackle the AtkAccessible interface draft/whatever this cycle. But no promises.
20:17:24 <joanie> agenda?
20:17:28 <richardschwerdtfeger> scribe: Joanie
20:17:41 <joanie> zakim, take up item 1
20:17:41 <Zakim> agendum 1. "ACTION-1396: (Cynthia) UIA mappings for role grid to convey beyond table." taken up [from clown]
20:18:11 <clown> action-1396
20:18:11 <trackbot> action-1396 -- Cynthia Shelly to Modify uaig to convey grid role in accessibility mappings, beyond table. (atk/atspi/ ia2 xml-role=grid, macosx: roledescription: grid, msaa/uiaexpress localizedcontroltype="grid"?) -- due 2014-11-15 -- OPEN
20:18:12 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1396
20:18:48 <joanie> JS: The issue is, there's an action for me for a while now to put in the mapping to convey the fact that grids are more than just tables.
20:19:11 <joanie> JS: I've done these for all the other APIs, along with a draft/proposal for UIA.
20:19:20 <joanie> JS: I need Cynthia's feedback/review.
20:19:20 <clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#role-map-grid
20:19:31 <joanie> JS: What it says now for grid is...
20:20:18 <clown> ROLE_SYSTEM_TABLE + AriaRole="grid"
20:20:22 <joanie> s/for UIA/MSAA + UIA Express/
20:20:37 <clown> ROLE_SYSTEM_TABLE + control type 'grid'
20:20:41 <joanie> JS: The two solutions are: ROLE_SYSTEM_TABLE + AriaRole = "grid" OR Localized Control Type is grid
20:20:56 <joanie> JS: Anyone know enough about UIA express to judge which of those is the right one?
20:21:12 <joanie> RS: Do they do anything special for treegrid versus grid?
20:21:27 <joanie> JS: treegrid is mapped to datagrid.
20:21:46 <joanie> JS: I remember Cynthia saying datagrid is the only thing available -- for treegrid.
20:22:07 <joanie> BG: Are there any working examples for treegrid? They're hard to use.
20:22:19 <joanie> JS: I'll look, but how does that answer the question for UIA Express.
20:24:00 <clown> scribenick: clown
20:24:18 <clown> RS:  The APIs are different in FF and Safari
20:24:24 <clown> JD:  I'm not sure of the question.
20:25:02 <clown> RS:  Are you working on FF and WebKit in terms of exposing on the AAPI layer?
20:25:09 <clown> JD:  I'm not working on gecko.
20:25:19 <clown> RS:  Are you staying in sync with FF team?
20:25:41 <clown> JD:  I'm not sure, but since there is but one ATK/AT-SPI mapping, they should be in sync.
20:25:49 <clown> RS:  Let me give you an example.
20:26:16 <clown> RS:  All the linux mappings were verified with FF.
20:26:29 <clown> RS:  Are the webkit to ATK mappings the same?
20:26:46 <joanie> scribenick: joanie
20:27:50 <joanie> JD: Mapping should be the same. I'm only working on WebKit development-wise. If I find a Gecko bug, I file it.
20:28:20 <joanie> JS: How does all of this relate to the agenda item?
20:28:43 <joanie> JS: Namely, how does UIA Express map grid in a way that expresses that it is interactive?
20:29:00 <joanie> JS: I need A UIA Express expert to tell me which of my proposed two options is right.
20:29:10 <joanie> RS: Are you an expert? Or is there one?
20:29:24 <joanie> JS: Cynthia. I wouldn't be surprised if Alex knows.
20:29:38 <joanie> RS: We need someone who is doing the implementations in IE.
20:29:46 <joanie> s/RS: We/JS: We/
20:30:06 <joanie> s/JS: We/RS: We/
20:30:23 <joanie> BG: What are the differences between treegrid and grid?
20:30:41 <joanie> JS: My recollection is that datagrid doesn't make a distinction between treegrid and grid.
20:30:48 <joanie> JS: Rich, you recall anything different?
20:30:55 <joanie> BG: Then it should map to the same thing.
20:31:09 <joanie> BG: It's almost like they're inheriting from Outline.
20:31:38 <joanie> JS: [Reads about implemented IA2 interfaces]
20:31:48 <joanie> JS: Yes, AX API only maps to table for treegrid.
20:32:27 <joanie> s/table/AXTable/
20:32:54 <joanie> JS: I'll bring this back up next week.
20:32:57 <joanie> Zakim, next item
20:32:57 <Zakim> agendum 2. "ACTION-1104: (Cynthia) Define the UIA mapping for aria-describedby when the element does not exist in the accessibility tree such as when css: display:none applies."
20:33:00 <Zakim> ... taken up [from clown]
20:33:04 <clown> action-1104?
20:33:05 <trackbot> action-1104 -- Cynthia Shelly to Define what the accessibility API mapping is for UIA on aria-describedby in section 5.5.1 table when the element does not exist in the accessibility tree such as when css: display:none applies -- due 2014-11-18 -- OPEN
20:33:05 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1104
20:33:10 <joanie> JS: I doubt that she's answered this either.
20:33:18 <joanie> JS: This is needed by the new accessible name document.
20:33:31 <joanie> JS: What do you do in UIA?
20:33:38 <joanie> RS: Should we say what they should do?
20:33:53 <joanie> JS: Everyone else grabs the text and puts the string in the accessible description field.
20:34:14 <joanie> JS: UIA has pointers. And there's nothing to point to due to display:none.
20:34:26 <joanie> JS: They have legacy description, but they don't want to do that.
20:34:45 <joanie> RS: I don't have an answer for you.
20:34:53 <joanie> JS: Ok, I'll bring this up again next week.
20:35:01 <joanie> Zakim, next item
20:35:01 <Zakim> agendum 3. "ACTION-1311/ACTION-1444/ACTION-1445: (Joseph, Cynthia) Clarify that presentation role should preserve separation of nodes within tables/lists." taken up
20:35:07 <clown> action-1311?
20:35:07 <trackbot> action-1311 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to Clarify that presentation role should preserve separation of nodes within tables/lists; work out in UAIG 1.1 and with implementors/vendors how to resolve this. -- due 2014-11-15 -- OPEN
20:35:07 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1311
20:35:17 <joanie> JS: I'm pretty much ready to take this one on.
20:35:40 <joanie> JS: This was caused a long time ago, briefly, because Alex smushed a presentational table into one giant text.
20:35:46 <joanie> JS: He's since fixed that.
20:36:02 <joanie> JS: There's been a request to add something to the mapping stating not to smush things together.
20:36:10 <joanie> JS: My question is, where does this go in the document?
20:36:21 <clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#mapping_general
20:36:28 <joanie> JS: The first possibility is the above section of the document.
20:36:37 <joanie> JS: [reads]
20:37:09 <joanie> JS: We could add something there along the lines of "if role='presentation' .... do not"
20:37:20 <joanie> JS: The other place to put it is the role mapping for presentation.
20:37:30 <joanie> JS: What do you guys think?
20:37:31 <clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#role-map-presentation
20:38:30 <joanie> JD: Is this specific to tables and lists?
20:38:42 <joanie> JS: It applies to anything with required descendants.
20:38:54 <joanie> JS: We need to say what happens to them.
20:39:05 <joanie> RS: A separate non-semantic entity.
20:40:05 <joanie> JD: Would it make sense to put it under table and list, if those really are the two things they apply to?
20:40:09 <clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/aria/aria.html#presentation
20:40:38 <joanie> JS: There's a paragraph at the above URL. (About the 7th paragraph down, not counting the editorial notes.)
20:41:25 <joanie> JS: [Reads paragraph starting with "When an explicit or inherited role of presentation is applied to an element with the implicit semantic of a WAI-ARIA role that has required owned elements, in addition to the element with the explicit role of presentation, the user agent must apply an inherited role of presentation to any owned elements that do not have an explicit role defined."]
20:41:40 <joanie> JS: I think I could put it in one spot and cover both tables and lists in that one spot.
20:43:40 <joanie> JD: My real point is put it where we think implementors are likely to look.
20:43:59 <joanie> [Discussion about the original smushing]
20:44:40 <joanie> JS: [Reads from Alex's message]
20:45:05 <joanie> JS: Where does it say you must not create an accessible object for table with role="presentation"?
20:45:17 <clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#exclude_elements2
20:45:35 <joanie> JS: It's just a guess but maybe in the above section?
20:45:58 <joanie> JS: In which case, perhaps that is where you put this extra information.
20:46:31 <joanie> RS: So you want to add a new bullet point under 5.1.1?
20:46:38 <joanie> JS: Or maybe a sub-bullet.
20:48:15 <clown> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=945435
20:48:24 <joanie> [Discussion of the above issue]
20:49:17 <richardschwerdtfeger> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/svg-aam/svg-aam.html
20:50:02 <joanie> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1013584
20:51:44 <joanie> JD: Looking at comment 18, David removed "[ATK]" from the summary which suggests that *maybe* in IA2, they are also now mapped as if they were divs.
20:51:50 <joanie> JD: But I don't know.
20:52:04 <joanie> JS: Looking at the last patch, there's no more "text" roles.
20:52:18 <joanie> JS: I need to look at this as a guide to the text I put in.
20:52:48 <joanie> JS: I think I'm going to put this text in the initial part of the mapping where it talks about role="presentation".
20:52:59 <joanie> JS: Then I'll mark it as "pending review".
20:54:30 <Zakim> -Rich_Schwerdtfeger
20:55:12 <joanie> Zakim, take up item 6
20:55:12 <Zakim> agendum 6. "ACTION-1531/ISSUE-435:  (David) investigate ia2 mapping of role="text"." taken up [from clown]
20:55:18 <clown> action-1531
20:55:19 <trackbot> action-1531 -- David Bolter to Bolter to investigate ia2 mapping of role="text" -- due 2014-11-18 -- OPEN
20:55:19 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1531
20:55:32 <joanie> JS: David's not done this yet. I'll bring it up next week.
20:57:30 <joanie> RRSAgent, make minutes
20:57:30 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/12/02-aapi-minutes.html joanie
21:07:27 <joanie> Zakim, part
21:07:27 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees were Joseph_Scheuhammer, +1.650.738.aaaa, Joanmarie_Diggs, Rich_Schwerdtfeger
21:07:27 <Zakim> Zakim has left #aapi
21:08:05 <joanie> RRSAgent, make minutes
21:08:05 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/12/02-aapi-minutes.html joanie
21:10:45 <joanie> present+ Bryan_Garaventa
21:10:57 <joanie> present- aaaa
21:11:01 <joanie> RRSAgent, make minutes
21:11:01 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/12/02-aapi-minutes.html joanie
21:11:29 <joanie> present- +1.650.738.aaaa
21:11:31 <joanie> RRSAgent, make minutes
21:11:31 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/12/02-aapi-minutes.html joanie
21:11:49 <joanie> RRSAgent, stop