14:57:58 RRSAgent has joined #tt 14:57:58 logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/11/27-tt-irc 14:58:00 RRSAgent, make logs public 14:58:00 Zakim has joined #tt 14:58:02 Zakim, this will be TTML 14:58:02 ok, trackbot; I see SYMM_TTWG()10:00AM scheduled to start in 2 minutes 14:58:03 Meeting: Timed Text Working Group Teleconference 14:58:03 Date: 27 November 2014 14:58:55 SYMM_TTWG()10:00AM has now started 14:59:02 +glenn 14:59:56 +nigel 15:01:53 atai has joined #tt 15:02:01 +Andreas 15:02:51 Present: glenn, nigel, Andreas 15:03:03 Regrets: mdolan, tmichel 15:03:40 +pal 15:03:46 Present+ pal 15:04:51 Topic: This meeting 15:04:58 Frans has joined #tt 15:05:01 + +41.22.717.aaaa 15:05:04 pal has joined #tt 15:05:09 Present+ Frans 15:05:16 zakim, aaaa is Frans 15:05:16 +Frans; got it 15:07:15 nigel: Plan for TTML2 publication timeline has been discussed. Proposal is as follows: 15:07:24 nigel: W/c 4th Jan 2015: Publish FPWD 15:07:50 ... Thu 29th Jan 2015: any additions/edits deferred from FPWD to have been completed or deferred until v.next 15:08:10 ... Tue 17th Feb 2015: Publish updated WD 'feature complete' 15:08:20 ... Tue 17th-Fri 20th Feb inclusive: Chair to send Wide Review requests to internal and external groups 15:08:35 ... Fri 3rd March: WD review period to end 15:09:46 ... After this, process comments, agree CR exit criteria, request transition to CR 15:10:40 nigel: It would be good for anyone who may be aware of potential liaison partners who have meetings during or near 15:10:49 ... the review period to highlight those so we can be as inclusive as possible. 15:10:53 scribeNick: nigel 15:11:31 Topic: IMSC 1 transition to CR 15:11:52 nigel: I have made the request, we have a meeting planned with the Director on Wednesday 3rd Dec 15:12:10 ... The Disposition of Comments is looking good: https://www.w3.org/2006/02/lc-comments-tracker/34314/WD-ttml-imsc1-20140930/doc/ 15:14:53 nigel: The edited CR incorporates the exit criteria that we agreed at TPAC. 15:15:20 action-351? 15:15:20 action-351 -- Thierry Michel to Draft transition request for IMSC 1 for cr -- due 2014-11-27 -- OPEN 15:15:20 http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/351 15:15:27 close action-351 15:15:27 Closed action-351. 15:15:31 action-352? 15:15:31 action-352 -- Thierry Michel to Organise a meeting with plh, nigel, the director and the editor of imsc 1 -- due 2014-11-27 -- OPEN 15:15:31 http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/352 15:15:38 close action-352 15:15:38 Closed action-352. 15:15:42 action-353? 15:15:42 action-353 -- Pierre-Anthony Lemieux to Update imsc 1 ed for cr with exit criteria wording -- due 2014-11-27 -- OPEN 15:15:42 http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/353 15:15:54 close action-353 15:15:54 Closed action-353. 15:15:58 action-333? 15:15:58 action-333 -- Pierre-Anthony Lemieux to Create a one pager to cover the plan for the director's meeting for taking imsc1 to cr. -- due 2014-11-27 -- OPEN 15:15:58 http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/333 15:19:02 Topic: Action Items 15:19:32 action-332? 15:19:33 action-332 -- Glenn Adams to Add schema support for ISD vocabulary -- due 2014-10-27 -- OPEN 15:19:33 http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/332 15:20:06 group: no further progress on actions 15:20:12 Topic: Issues 15:20:22 issue-357? 15:20:22 issue-357 -- Add support for horizontal in vertical (tate-chu-yoko). -- raised 15:20:22 http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/357 15:21:03 issue-229? 15:21:03 issue-229 -- Mixed vertical-horizontal progression direction -- open 15:21:03 http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/229 15:22:06 Action: glenn resolve duplication between issue-357 and issue-229 15:22:06 Created ACTION-355 - Resolve duplication between issue-357 and issue-229 [on Glenn Adams - due 2014-12-04]. 15:22:40 issue-354? 15:22:40 issue-354 -- Add support for letter spacing style semantics -- closed 15:22:40 http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/354 15:22:51 glenn: I closed this as a duplicate of issue-236 after last week's meeting 15:23:30 issue-10? 15:23:30 issue-10 -- Allowing pointers to pre-rendered audio forms of elements -- pending review 15:23:30 http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/10 15:24:04 glenn: Most of these pending review issues are resolved in the recent edits to TTML2 15:24:42 nigel: These changes are very recent and there are lots of them so we should give a decent chance for folk to review them 15:25:08 Action: nigel Request review of TTML2 pending review issues from group 15:25:08 Created ACTION-356 - Request review of ttml2 pending review issues from group [on Nigel Megitt - due 2014-12-04]. 15:25:10 issue-22? 15:25:10 issue-22 -- window fade in/out not supported? -- pending review 15:25:10 http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/22 15:25:54 glenn: This has been addressed since August 2013. 15:26:10 ... Now that we have the animate element we have continuous support for fade in/out 15:27:43 close issue-22 15:27:43 Closed issue-22. 15:28:21 glenn: A large class of the currently pending review issues are metadata related. I added support for enumerated 15:28:55 ... named metadata items, which cover 12 of those issues at least, and target bar data, aspect ratio, target format, active format descriptor. 15:29:03 q+ 15:29:10 q+ to ask about nested items 15:29:38 glenn: Forced display (issue-230) is addressed with the condition attribute and the parameter function that allows 15:29:55 ... parameters defined in the document processing context to be queried. 15:30:25 glenn: The new font element covers issue-273. 15:30:53 ... The binary data tunnelling from issue-287 is covered by the data element. 15:30:56 ack pal 15:31:14 pal: Here's a use case: I create a document using a number of audio/font/image resources and I'd like to author it once 15:31:29 ... and allow the distribution across many different platforms. Some of them will embed the resource in a multiplex, 15:31:47 ... e.g. in an ISOBMFF or MXF multiplex. Others will require the processor to retrieve the resource over the internet. So 15:32:08 ... how do I craft the document so I don't have to reauthor it dependent on platform? Is there a level of indirection to 15:32:12 ... allow resolution of location? 15:32:30 glenn: Yes, there is indirection at a couple of levels. The main level is through the use of the source element child of 15:33:22 https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/ttml/raw-file/tip/ttml2/spec/ttml2.html#embedded-content-vocabulary-font 15:33:40 glenn: embedded content elements such as image, font or audio. For example let's look at font (URL above) 15:34:07 ... There's an example with a font element inside the resources element, with two children, an external resource URL and 15:34:23 ... an internal data element with an inline definition. By using multiple sources the semantics of source, which I need to 15:34:39 ... elaborate a bit more, lets you walk down the list of sources and resolve the first one that can be resolved. 15:34:47 ... That's one form of indirection. 15:35:02 pal: For font, there's a unique reference back to the fontFamily. What would it be for an image or audio? 15:35:23 glenn: The only reason for a reference to font, which is in fact not required, and if not specified will use the name of the 15:35:46 ... family in the font that it resolves to. However if you want 3 different sources with different family names A, B and C then 15:36:04 ... that would present a problem for how you refer to the font in each family. So you'd write in a label with a new family, 15:36:28 ... then the referenced resource would be treated as having the e.g. "myFont" family. And you'd refer to that family name 15:36:45 ... in the style as "myFont". I have some further editorial work to do on the font selection semantics. 15:37:11 ... In the case of image, we don't refer to images using a name like a family name. There are two places where images 15:37:43 ... can be referenced in the newest draft. Image can be a child of a resources element or a div/p/span. Also the new 15:38:02 ... backgroundImage style may refer to an image. In those cases the reference mechanism is either by embedding the 15:38:26 ... image directly inline in a div, p or span, or it could refer to an image element as a child of the resources element, or 15:38:48 ... a source element to refer to an external image. There are some examples under image which show an external resource 15:39:19 ... , a source child and in the third example an embedded case where there are two sources, one is an external reference 15:39:28 ... and the other is embedded, and the first resolvable one should be used. 15:39:37 pal: How do I uniquely identify an image? 15:40:04 glenn: You'd put an xml:id on the image element to refer to it. For example an image in the resources element, like 15:40:31 ... xml:id="myImage" then you'd refer to it later as src="#myImage". In the second example I do something like that. 15:40:53 glenn: That's a fragment identifier. 15:41:02 pal: How would you refer to that image in an actual div for example? 15:41:10 ... (in the second example) 15:41:36 glenn: To display in a div as content: it could be a background image or a content element. If you put an image element 15:41:51 ... in the content of a div that becomes a content image as opposed to a background image. That works like the img element 15:42:12 ... in html. Whereas the background image is referenced using the backgroundImage style property. The semantic distinction 15:42:30 ... between them is that background images should never be used to represent content, that should only be done in a content 15:42:41 ... image. I know that's different than SMPTE-TT and so forth. 15:42:51 pal: Sure, that's a different issue. 15:44:27 glenn: So let's say you want a background image on a region instead of a colour. 15:44:56 ... In the second example I should wrap the data element in and show that the element 15:45:19 ... is in a div to make that clearer. 15:46:11 ack nigel 15:46:11 nigel, you wanted to ask about nested items 15:47:05 nigel: I was wondering if the item element should be able to contain 0 or more item elements or alternatively PCDATA 15:47:17 ... At the moment you can't structure the item data except as a flat list. 15:47:39 glenn: I was contemplating that. In EBU-TT there's translator, translator contact, editor and editor contact, and one might 15:48:21 ... want to group a contact closely with the translator or editor. I could make it either 0..* item children OR PCDATA. 15:49:02 atai: Why is this ttm:item element used instead of including the metadata directly as individual elements? 15:49:27 glenn: Why generic? Because I view element proliferation as a very bad thing. I try to minimise the introduction of new 15:49:46 ... elements wherever possible unless there's an overriding reason not to take the generic approach. One negative approach 15:50:16 ... is you can't use the schema mechanism to validate multiple items that use different syntax. 15:50:24 nigel: In XSD 1.1 you can use assertions to do that. 15:50:39 glenn: Also in Relax next generation and RNC can do it. 15:50:51 atai: That's true, but not in XSD 1.0. 15:51:18 glenn: A generic approach needs less spec modification for experimentation. You just have to define a new name. 15:51:34 ... I made the names either tokens or URIs so anyone could define a new URI and the syntax of the value. 15:51:58 atai: So to extend the value list and use a different one do you have to prefix it with x- ? 15:52:13 glenn: You'd either use a URI or an x- prefix. 15:53:49 nigel: I wonder how long is reasonable as a timeline for closing the issues? 15:54:28 glenn: I'd say a week or so for preliminary review. 15:54:33 nigel: I'll target 11th December. 15:54:48 pal: Are we stable for the review? 15:55:00 glenn: I'd call it a preliminary review of the editor's draft, so anything could still change! 15:55:27 pal: So far I've done cursory review. My plan is to do a thorough review once we've "frozen" it for FPWD. 15:56:07 glenn: The key here is to be able to close out the issues so that I know when the task list is complete. 15:56:24 ... We can always reopen an issue if it's not handled adequately. I'd prefer to be aggressive in closing issues and reopening 15:56:37 ... or opening new issues rather than leaving them handing as Pending Review. 15:58:54 nigel: There isn't much time to review after the FPWD version is ready, but there is time between FPWD and next WD. 15:59:16 pal: The point is knowing when the document is stable enough to review. 15:59:43 glenn: My plan is to make a FPWD that has all of the syntactic elements present, even if they then change on further 15:59:44 ... review. 16:00:15 pal: Can we have a 'stable for publication of FPWD' date and give everyone a chance to review that, address the comments 16:00:25 ... and then publish the FPWD. 16:02:03 nigel: I can leave a pre-FPWD review period for the group during the first 2 weeks of January. 16:02:30 glenn: To get these issues moved to closed is a different question. I'm fine with a week or two of preliminary review 16:02:48 ... before moving to Closed. If later on, on further review, there are problems then issues can be opened or reopened. 16:03:03 pal: I think that makes sense especially before FPWD. 16:04:30 Topic: Change Proposals 16:05:05 -pal 16:05:06 -Andreas 16:05:07 -Frans 16:05:09 -glenn 16:05:16 -nigel 16:05:17 SYMM_TTWG()10:00AM has ended 16:05:17 Attendees were glenn, nigel, Andreas, pal, +41.22.717.aaaa, Frans 16:05:33 glenn: I've updated some of the Change Proposals to Pending Review where all of their Issues are Pending Review. 16:05:44 ... We can move them to Closed when we've closed the issues in a couple of weeks. 16:06:06 nigel: To summarise the TTML2 plan, I'll add a 2 week period at the beginning of January for pre-FPWD review, 16:06:25 ... and we'll target all the currently Pending Review issues for closure on 11th December. 16:06:41 nigel: Thanks everyone, see you next week. [Adjourns meeting] 16:06:46 rrsagent, make logs public 16:06:50 rrsagent, draft minutes 16:06:50 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/11/27-tt-minutes.html nigel 16:07:50 chair: nigel 16:08:51 action-356: Target 11th December for closure of pending review issues 16:08:51 Notes added to action-356 Request review of ttml2 pending review issues from group. 16:10:31 s/show an external resource/show an external resource, 16:10:42 s/, a source child/a source child 16:13:16 rrsagent, draft minutes 16:13:16 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/11/27-tt-minutes.html nigel 16:15:40 ScribeOptions: -final -noEmbedDiagnostics 16:15:41 rrsagent, draft minutes 16:15:41 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/11/27-tt-minutes.html nigel 16:16:48 Regrets+ courtney 16:16:50 rrsagent, draft minutes 16:16:50 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/11/27-tt-minutes.html nigel 17:02:22 glenn has joined #tt 19:22:47 Zakim has left #tt