17:58:36 RRSAgent has joined #social 17:58:36 logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/11/25-social-irc 17:58:38 RRSAgent, make logs public 17:58:40 Zakim, this will be SOCL 17:58:40 ok, trackbot; I see T&S_SOCWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 2 minutes 17:58:41 Meeting: Social Web Working Group Teleconference 17:58:41 Date: 25 November 2014 17:58:54 Zakim, this is SOCL 17:58:54 ok, Arnaud; that matches T&S_SOCWG()1:00PM 17:59:02 zakim? 17:59:18 sorry... how do I check to see if I'm on zakim again? 17:59:29 +??P2 17:59:30 zakim, who's on the phone? 17:59:31 On the phone I see jasnell, ??P2 17:59:32 Zakim, who's on the call? 17:59:32 On the phone I see jasnell, ??P2 17:59:42 +??P4 17:59:44 +Arnaud 17:59:45 Zakim, ??P2 is me 17:59:45 +rhiaro; got it 17:59:48 Zakim, mute me please 17:59:48 rhiaro should now be muted 18:00:22 dialing in 18:00:29 evanpro has joined #social 18:00:44 +??P7 18:00:51 I'm having trouble connecting 18:00:53 trying again 18:00:59 So am I 18:01:01 Zakim, who's on the call? 18:01:01 On the phone I see jasnell, rhiaro (muted), ??P4, Arnaud, elf-pavlik 18:01:09 I can connect but I get no prompt 18:01:40 -rhiaro 18:01:42 Same thing here, no one is saying "you have connected to.." 18:01:47 zakim, ??P4 is tantek 18:01:47 +tantek; got it 18:01:56 caseorganic has joined #social 18:01:58 + +1.514.554.aaaa 18:02:04 I think SIP is screwed up 18:02:07 Zakim, aaaa is me 18:02:07 +evanpro; got it 18:02:08 +??P2 18:02:10 + +972.3.645.aabb 18:02:13 is anyone else in on SIP succesfully? 18:02:17 - +972.3.645.aabb 18:02:19 I'm on sip 18:02:19 +??P9 18:02:20 cwebber2, me 18:02:35 hm :\ 18:02:37 Zakim, +??P2 is me 18:02:37 sorry, jessica_lily, I do not recognize a party named '+??P2' 18:02:43 jessica_lily, no + 18:02:43 oh 18:02:46 +??P5 18:02:48 Zakim, ??P2 is me 18:02:48 +jessica_lily; got it 18:02:49 -??P9 18:02:50 -??P5 18:02:52 every week >.< 18:02:59 Zakim, mute me 18:02:59 jessica_lily should now be muted 18:03:00 I can dial in to other services 18:03:06 +Sandro 18:03:10 +[IPcaller] 18:03:11 + +1.314.705.aacc 18:03:13 Zakim, IPcaller is me 18:03:13 +wilkie; got it 18:03:17 zakim, who's on the phone? 18:03:17 On the phone I see jasnell, tantek, Arnaud, elf-pavlik, evanpro, jessica_lily (muted), Sandro, wilkie, +1.314.705.aacc 18:03:19 +??P5 18:03:21 +Lloyd_Fassett_ 18:03:37 Zakim, aacc is AdamB 18:03:37 +AdamB; got it 18:03:48 + +33.6.47.14.aadd 18:04:03 Still nothing here :( 18:04:05 +dromasca 18:04:07 -??P5 18:04:08 *sniff* 18:04:15 Zakim, bblfish is aadd 18:04:15 sorry, bblfish, I do not recognize a party named 'bblfish' 18:04:16 zakim, who's on the phone? 18:04:17 On the phone I see jasnell, tantek, Arnaud, elf-pavlik, evanpro, jessica_lily (muted), Sandro, wilkie, AdamB, Lloyd_Fassett_, +33.6.47.14.aadd, dromasca 18:04:17 harry has joined #social 18:04:33 Zakim, apologies, finishing up another meeting 18:04:33 I don't understand 'apologies, finishing up another meeting', harry 18:04:40 Zakim, what's the code? 18:04:40 the conference code is 7625 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), harry 18:04:40 harry: tantek left you a message on 11/21 at 12:08pm: I hear you're doing a good job of nudging WG mailing list discussions to be more on-topic and in-scope. 18:04:42 Zakim, aadd is bblfish 18:04:43 +bblfish; got it 18:04:46 thanks Arnaud 18:05:04 Zakim, who's on the call? 18:05:04 On the phone I see jasnell, tantek, Arnaud, elf-pavlik (muted), evanpro, jessica_lily (muted), Sandro, wilkie, AdamB, Lloyd_Fassett_, bblfish, dromasca 18:05:10 zakim@voip.w3.org doesn't seem to be responding 18:05:17 +[IPcaller] 18:05:20 Zakim, IPcaller is hhalpin 18:05:20 +hhalpin; got it 18:05:30 ShaneHudson, it took me 2 tries 18:05:38 chair: Arnaud 18:05:38 elf-pavlik: I've tried about 20 so far lol 18:05:39 ShaneHudson: are you joining? 18:05:51 Zakim, pick a victim 18:05:51 Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose hhalpin 18:05:53 harry: I will scribe if I can get in. Currently can't join, not sure why 18:06:08 scribe: harry 18:06:09 +??P14 18:06:15 Thanks harry 18:06:20 +Ann 18:06:29 Zakim, who's on the call? 18:06:29 On the phone I see jasnell, tantek, Arnaud, elf-pavlik (muted), evanpro, jessica_lily (muted), Sandro, wilkie, AdamB, Lloyd_Fassett_, bblfish, dromasca, hhalpin, ??P14, Ann 18:07:09 agenda: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2014-11-25 18:07:12 harry: No, using the telephone app. Normally works fine 18:07:28 It is called Telephone 18:07:30 PROPOSED: approve minutes of 18 November 2014 https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2014-11-18-minutes 18:07:37 +1 18:07:39 +1 18:07:44 +1 18:07:45 +1 18:07:46 +1 18:07:48 +1 18:07:53 RESOLVED: approve minutes of 18 November 2014 https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2014-11-18-minutes 18:07:59 +1 18:08:07 Arnaud: Next meeting Dec 2nd 18:08:13 ... a word about editing minutes 18:08:18 ... I understand its painful 18:08:31 ... RRSAgent generates minutes 18:08:46 ... we'd always have to go through Team Contact to get raw text 18:08:52 dromasca has joined #social 18:08:59 ... an ability to edit minutes via HTTP PUT might work 18:09:04 ... still experimental 18:09:07 https://www.w3.org/2014/data-shapes/wiki/Editing_Minutes 18:09:18 -??P14 18:09:37 +??P16 18:09:44 Zakim, ??P16 is me 18:09:44 +rhiaro; got it 18:10:05 ??P14 is me 18:10:10 ... what we are doing now to generate minutes is too much hassle 18:10:16 Arnaud has 1 karma 18:10:18 ... re putting HTML to wiki-page 18:10:22 ... but we must have to a proper record 18:11:04 ... we need to clean, as scribe can't do a perfect job 18:11:32 +??P14 18:11:43 ... in process of handing geekiness 18:12:17 Zakim, ??P14 is me 18:12:17 +dromasca; got it 18:12:19 jasnell has joined #social 18:12:21 We could ask RRSagent to generate wikipages via PanDoc? 18:12:23 q+ 18:12:36 tantek: Wikis are pretty easy, might be easier than HTTP PUT 18:12:42 ... that would allow anyone to fix small problems 18:12:55 q+ 18:13:15 + +1.773.614.aaee 18:13:39 ShaneHud_ has joined #social 18:13:45 pandoc is pretty good! 18:13:50 q- 18:13:58 ack harry 18:14:02 last one is me 18:14:15 Right I'm in. Had a VPN issue. Had to reconnect IRC too 18:14:19 hm 18:14:19 Arnaud: But cutting and pasting 18:14:21 Zakim, who is on the call? 18:14:21 On the phone I see jasnell, tantek, Arnaud, elf-pavlik (muted), evanpro, jessica_lily (muted), Sandro, wilkie, AdamB, Lloyd_Fassett_, bblfish, dromasca, hhalpin, Ann, rhiaro 18:14:24 ... (muted), dromasca.a, +1.773.614.aaee 18:14:35 ... the wikipage is too painful 18:14:38 -dromasca.a 18:14:43 where do we find code for rssagent? 18:14:47 +??P14 18:14:53 Zakim, ??P14 is me 18:14:53 +ShaneHud_; got it 18:14:59 How about using RRSAgent to produce native wiki-pages? 18:15:07 Arnaud: Systeam is busy, couldn't hurt 18:15:16 s/rssagent/rrsagent/ 18:15:21 topic: Actions 18:15:21 http://www.w3.org/Social/track/actions/open 18:15:32 harry: Yeah sure, do I just do scribe: shane? 18:15:38 q+ 18:15:48 scribe: ShaneHud_ 18:15:48 ack evanpro 18:15:49 q+ 18:15:53 scribenick: ShaneHud_ 18:15:59 Pandoc: http://johnmacfarlane.net/pandoc/ 18:16:27 EvanPro: Done with mine 18:16:32 tantek: I'm done with mine 18:16:32 ack jasnell 18:16:33 Arnaud: Actions 4 and 13 can be closed 18:16:39 evanpro, can you add link to http://www.w3.org/Social/track/actions/13 ? 18:16:43 (Correct me if I get names wrong) 18:17:03 https://www.w3.org/wiki/Activity_Streams/Expanded_Vocabulary 18:17:31 -rhiaro 18:17:33 jasnell: Can close once people have reviewed the draft, plan to review next week 18:17:40 elf-pavlik, you mean add a link to the Twitter API page? 18:17:59 http://www.w3.org/Social/track/issues/raised 18:18:00 yes, so everyone can just follow nose... 18:18:09 +??P16 18:18:29 People can check out the extended vocabulary changes by cloning the repo from github and checking out the "extended-vocabulary" branch. 18:18:41 Arnaud: Issue 11 should not be currently raised, what needs to happen? 18:19:05 q+ 18:19:10 Yes, can probably do that 18:19:11 ack evanpro 18:19:12 q+ 18:19:15 +1 open 18:19:21 ack harry 18:19:29 evanpro: Since we are working on the namespace, issue 11 should be opened 18:19:37 -rhiaro 18:19:47 tantek has joined #social 18:19:47 harry: Assign to me 18:19:48 q+ :re serving JSON-LD @context 18:20:04 +??P16 18:20:25 almereyda has joined #social 18:20:28 No problem, just had issue re Content Negotiation 18:20:36 and serving the right headers etc last time I did this dance 18:20:46 q- 18:20:52 so feel free to assign this issue to me and we'll see if we can make it happen. 18:20:59 -rhiaro 18:21:02 Arnaud: The right thing to do may be to close issue 11 and create an action for harry to follow up 18:21:06 sounds good! 18:21:22 rhiaro: :( 18:21:59 Sandro advises that Harry does not need SysTeam to do that; rather, find someone who has done it before .. such as 18:22:01 rhiaro, i can give you access to skype account with some credits you could use (firend donated it to me) 18:22:02 ACTION: hhalpin to set up JSON-LD context for namespace 18:22:02 Created ACTION-14 - Set up json-ld context for namespace [on Harry Halpin - due 2014-12-02]. 18:22:13 s//Greg Kellogg 18:22:30 Of course, I might add this whole dance with conneg and serving media types explains why no actual web developers do this sort of thing. 18:22:38 Which means, in general, making it normative is usually a bad idea IMHO 18:22:41 I can't do the 4th and 5th 18:22:48 but for consistency's sake it should be done 18:22:53 s/, Sandro?// 18:23:14 topic: Dates for f2f 18:23:15 tiborKatelbach has joined #social 18:23:34 jasnell has joined #social 18:23:45 where is this meeting taking place? 18:23:50 Thanks, sorry about that 18:23:54 /me no worries, Evan .. .life takes precedence 18:23:54 4th and 5h of... march was it? 18:24:20 q+ re: Europe early May! 18:24:26 Arnaud: MIT will welcome us. March 10/11/12 may work? 18:24:30 Yes, great for me 18:24:58 It's SxSW that week 18:25:01 works for me, the next week though 18:25:03 is even better 18:25:03 The downsides of not working for a large company is not being able to simply fly to MIT haha 18:25:28 week of march 15 is even better because it's the week before libreplanet 18:25:33 then I don't have to head to boston twice :) 18:25:38 that would be good for me 18:25:44 Arnaud: Adding second week of March to Doodle poll 18:25:53 tantek: Add week after that? 18:26:08 q- 18:26:26 How many Europeans would come to a f2f in MIT? 18:26:34 +aaronpk 18:26:35 I would! 18:26:44 https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Social_API/Foursquare_API 18:26:51 Arnaud: evanpro will give us an update on Foursquare 18:27:05 - +1.773.614.aaee 18:27:16 s/me no worries, Evan .. .life takes precedence// 18:27:28 + +1.773.614.aaff 18:27:37 who just joined? 18:27:40 evanpro: Not taking good or bad lessons, just trying to understand the APIs 18:28:01 evanpro: Foursquare lets users develop relationships with places as well as people 18:28:15 evanpro: Uses OAuth2, partially based on Twitter's mechanism 18:28:17 harry: nope, costs too much to fly from UK to boston. I would if it was around the same time as another event (e.g. libreplanet) 18:28:38 evanpro: Concept of user and person, as well as venue and place. Business, restuarants. Outdoors areas, neighbourhoods, airport gates 18:28:45 jessica_lily and I will probably be in boston for libreplanet, which is the 21-22 of march 18:28:49 so if it was the previous week 18:28:52 we could be in for both 18:29:00 evanpro: Users can create tips and lists of places 18:29:02 the_frey has joined #social 18:29:09 evanpro: Lists managed by individual users 18:29:19 evanpro: Mechanisms for special deals at venues 18:29:30 evanpro: Link events to venues, play at theatre 18:29:36 it might be a lot harder us to attend then if the week of the 9th, but week of the 16th is much easier 18:29:36 evanpro: Events have specific time and place 18:29:45 evanpro: About 105 endpoints, broad API 18:30:06 seems like a common problem - so many endpoints (Twitter, Foursquare) 18:30:10 evanpro: A lot of the same endpoints for different types. Content managed by create/read tips/checkins/lists 18:30:16 mechanic has joined #social 18:30:17 +[IPcaller] 18:30:24 evanpro: Geographical vocab is created by users 18:30:34 tantek, I wonder if they view it as a problem 18:30:38 /me welcome back rhiaro 18:30:41 evanpro: Lots of endpoints for managing places 18:30:54 +tiborKatelbach 18:30:55 evanpro: Each user has a number of feed endpoints for each type of content 18:30:55 sandro - as a *developer* - more endpoints = more complexity 18:31:18 in both cases, the endpoints were likely accreted over time. 18:31:20 evanpro: Inbox where they can see checkins by friends and people they follow 18:31:50 evanpro: Social graph endpoints, partially because it is sensitive it is two way - requires approval between users. Contrast with Twitter's 1 way social graph 18:31:57 still - perhaps there's an API design anti-pattern here we can learn from 18:31:59 and learn to avoid 18:32:03 evanpro: Users can create responses to types of content, comments and likes on most types 18:32:12 evanpro: Little bit of resharing but not very common 18:32:32 you can also follow humans that have over 1000 "friends" 18:32:34 tantek, I agree it seems that way upfront, but it MIGHT be that funneling that complexity through fewer endpoints doesn't really simplify but just moves it around. (I'm exploring this idea -- I don't really believe it.) 18:32:40 evanpro: Some non-human things, such as following lists or multi venue brand pages like Starbucks or McDonalds 18:32:45 or rather, Foursquare turns people into "brands" when they get 1000+ friends 18:32:47 evanpro: Some search endpoints for users and content 18:32:52 evanpro: Content reporting endpoints 18:32:55 e.g. Scoble 18:33:07 but Scoble *is* a brand :P 18:33:08 evanpro: Some endpoints for managing, reading and updating user profile 18:33:20 evanpro: Brand management endpoints 18:33:36 evanpro: Owner of venue can claim and manage venue information. Hours, contact, specials, events etc 18:33:42 there are a lot of diff use cases those end points are suporting 18:33:44 evanpro: Not quite finished looking at that 18:34:06 evanpro: Page is up on wiki and I would welcome any edits https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Social_API/Foursquare_API 18:34:07 I doubt we're going to need so many endpoints, since thsi looks like almost all of this probably would work with posting activities 18:34:10 evanpro: Any questions? 18:34:18 but this is interesting for at least what vocabulary we need 18:34:41 tantek: Did you notice any patterns? So many duplicated endpoints for different content types 18:35:16 evanpro: Really good question, both Twitter and Foursquare API have hundreds of endpoints, some redundant. Suggestions, deprecation etc through APIs 18:35:28 evanpro: Version management in API 18:35:43 q+ 18:35:51 we could also look at version management of verious APIs 18:35:54 evanpro: Design principle appears to be 85 endpoints makes it easy to just add another 18:36:07 evanpro: Instead of restructure entire mechansim 18:36:12 have to keep backwards compatibility if you make changes 18:36:17 ack sandro 18:36:20 so easier to add new ones 18:36:32 jasnell has joined #social 18:36:46 sandro: Continuing on, when I see these endpoints I see them as being very simple operations on a data. Each being like 3 lines of code. 18:37:12 sandro: As I try to picture the database, I want to know what the fields are on each of the entities. Maybe not in scope of particular investigation. 18:37:24 sandro: Bits of the data models are bubbling up as endpoints, so to speak 18:37:30 sandro: Are they documented anywhere? 18:37:33 q+ 18:37:41 sandro, i want to propose it for IG Vocabulary TF 18:37:42 sandro: Text, venue, date, list of feedback etc 18:38:19 Sorry, missed that bit 18:38:32 ACTION evanpro link to entity description in Foursquare API 18:38:32 Error finding 'evanpro'. You can review and register nicknames at . 18:38:40 dret has joined #social 18:38:48 none of these systems have simple DBs at all 18:38:52 sandro: Are there any that aren't actually database operations? 18:38:57 evanpro: Yes, most are CRUD 18:39:04 evanpro: Relationship, reading, updating object in system 18:39:34 evanpro: Foursquare is not a general purpose API, it is for a very specific geographically oriented social networks. No groups or videos 18:39:41 q? 18:39:41 ack bblfish 18:39:42 Arnaud: thanks,s orry 18:39:56 ACTION eprodrom link to entity description in Foursquare API 18:39:56 Created ACTION-16 - Link to entity description in foursquare api [on Evan Prodromou - due 2014-12-02]. 18:40:15 Hmmm, venues/trending is likely more sophisticated than CRUD 18:40:53 bblfish: If you look at these and remove the CRUD things you may be able to reduce by a factor of 6 by a HTTP verb instead of endpoint for each object 18:40:57 q+ to note Foursquare API does cover "notes" (e.g. attached to a checkin, but used to allow self-standing as "shouts"), "photos" (also attached to a checkin), thus is approaching "generic" API 18:41:13 bblfish: POST on every endpoint, could be using DELETE etc. 18:41:27 ack tantek 18:41:27 tantek, you wanted to note Foursquare API does cover "notes" (e.g. attached to a checkin, but used to allow self-standing as "shouts"), "photos" (also attached to a checkin), thus 18:41:30 ... is approaching "generic" API 18:41:35 bblfish: Better caching 18:41:56 (bblfish = Henry Story) 18:42:09 tantek: In watching the evolution of foursquare, the trend is the evolve to be generic. 18:42:42 tantek: Every photo posting service evolves to videos 18:42:48 tantek: Foursquare might add videos 18:42:49 +Doug_Schepers 18:42:56 tantek: Pretty clear they are growing their API 18:42:57 btw, this brings up an important point 18:43:04 if I can summarise: there are a lot of repeating end points such as search, delete, add, search, etc.... This looks like a duplication of what HTTP verbs do. There is POST for create, DELETE for deleting a resource, PATCH for changing, PUT for replacing, and even WebDav SEARCH 18:43:04 tantek: So we should assume that's their path 18:43:11 we haven't really spoken about how to post media 18:43:13 Arnaud: Start specialised then expand 18:43:14 such as images/video 18:43:25 so one could reduce the endpoints by 5 or 6 probably just by using verbs 18:43:27 https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Social_API/Facebook_API 18:43:31 whether or not that would be a separate submission from the activity post 18:43:46 elf-pavlik: Facebook API works in concept of social graph 18:44:05 elf-pavlik: Provides HTTP client for explorer tool 18:44:12 elf-pavlik: Requires authentication 18:44:27 elf-pavlik: Nodes are entities - user, page etc. 18:44:32 elf-pavlik: Some have screen names 18:44:39 elf-pavlik: 12 digit id or username 18:44:47 elf-pavlik: The nodes have edit 18:45:10 elf-pavlik: User has events and different edges 18:45:14 -ShaneHud_ 18:45:31 +??P14 18:45:36 Zakim, ??P14 is me 18:45:36 +ShaneHud_; got it 18:46:04 elf-pavlik: when you access graph api, you use id and each node has a link to the facebook url 18:46:13 elf-pavlik: Reminds me of schema.org using id and url 18:46:27 elf-pavlik: id could be endpoint api, and url could be CDN etc 18:46:56 elf-pavlik: You can make requests and return a default set of fields, can define which fields you want 18:47:31 elf-pavlik: Embed other resources, top 5 posts for example 18:47:49 elf-pavlik: enumerations for vocab 18:47:52 it'll be ok 18:48:03 elf-pavlik: I didn't do much on collections and paging yet 18:48:08 Oh, very interesting: backdated_time_granularity(photo): year, month, day, hour, min, none 18:48:28 elf-pavlik: HTTP verbs, GET POST and DELETE 18:48:34 -tantek 18:48:39 elf-pavlik: GET request to API for metadata 18:49:13 flickr also supports the idea of date granularity https://www.flickr.com/services/api/misc.dates.html 18:49:26 elf-pavlik: Some mismatch between documentation and metadata 18:49:31 but fewer options: "Y-m-d H:i:s", "Y-m", "Y" and "Circa" 18:49:42 elf-pavlik: Lots of entities, linked to pages 18:50:08 elf-pavlik: subtypes 18:50:27 jasnell has joined #social 18:50:44 elf-pavlik: Page categories have main categories and sub categories. Listed 6 groupings, some more details on IG 18:51:22 elf-pavlik: A comment or post can have like, comment, share is UI but not API response. 18:51:35 elf-pavlik: There is an actions array. Cannot make a POST to submit like 18:51:51 elf-pavlik: Looks like an hypermedia attempt, but not fully implemented 18:52:10 +??P4 18:52:21 elf-pavlik: Graph search can let you say "My friends who live in Paris" but API doesn't provide that 18:52:38