14:59:26 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #ldp
14:59:26 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/11/24-ldp-irc
14:59:28 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
14:59:28 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #ldp
14:59:30 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be LDP
14:59:30 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_LDP()10:00AM scheduled to start in 1 minute
14:59:31 <trackbot> Meeting: Linked Data Platform (LDP) Working Group Teleconference
14:59:31 <trackbot> Date: 24 November 2014
14:59:44 <Ashok> Ashok has joined #ldp
14:59:54 <Zakim> SW_LDP()10:00AM has now started
15:00:00 <Zakim> +Arnaud
15:00:11 <Zakim> +deiu
15:00:46 <Zakim> +Ashok_Malhotra
15:01:52 <Zakim> +Roger
15:02:01 <SteveS> SteveS has joined #ldp
15:02:04 <roger> roger has joined #ldp
15:02:06 <Zakim> +??P8
15:02:15 <pchampin> zakim, ??P8 is me
15:02:15 <Zakim> +pchampin; got it
15:02:16 <TallTed> TallTed has joined #ldp
15:02:22 <Zakim> +Steve_Speicher
15:02:34 <SteveS> zakim, Steve_Speicher is SteveS
15:02:34 <Zakim> +SteveS; got it
15:02:38 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software
15:03:14 <Zakim> +Sandro
15:03:26 <Arnaud> zakim, OpenLink_Software is TallTed
15:03:26 <Zakim> +TallTed; got it
15:03:53 <MiguelAraCo> MiguelAraCo has joined #ldp
15:04:00 <TallTed> Zakim, TallTed is OpenLink_Software
15:04:00 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software; got it
15:04:02 <TallTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
15:04:02 <Zakim> +TallTed; got it
15:05:15 <Zakim> +Alexandre
15:05:45 <betehess> betehess has joined #ldp
15:06:29 <betehess> Zakim, who is on the phone?
15:06:29 <Zakim> On the phone I see Arnaud, deiu, Ashok_Malhotra, Roger, pchampin, SteveS, TallTed, Sandro, Alexandre
15:07:06 <TallTed> scribenick: TallTed
15:07:14 <Arnaud> Proposal: Approve the minutes of the 17 November teleconf: http://www.w3.org/2013/meeting/ldp/2014-11-17
15:07:28 <Arnaud> Approvedl: Approve the minutes of the 17 November teleconf: http://www.w3.org/2013/meeting/ldp/2014-11-17
15:07:39 <Arnaud> s/Approved/Resolved/
15:07:52 <deiu> s/Approvedl/Resolved
15:08:00 <Zakim> +EricP
15:08:55 <deiu> Topic: LDP spec
15:09:38 <TallTed> Arnaud: Eric has scheduled transition request calls... we need test contributions for Paging
15:10:08 <bblfish> bblfish has joined #ldp
15:10:09 <SteveS> I said last week, we have and will do more
15:11:04 <TallTed> roger: implementation is likely, but no timeframe is settled
15:12:34 <Zakim> +??P11
15:12:44 <TallTed> Ashok: Oracle will probably implement whatever Paging comes out of LDP-Next
15:12:49 <nmihindu> Zakim, ??P11 is me
15:12:49 <Zakim> +nmihindu; got it
15:12:54 <nmihindu> Zakim, mute me
15:12:54 <Zakim> nmihindu should now be muted
15:13:26 <TallTed> Topic: LDPatch format
15:13:43 <betehess> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ldp-wg/2014Nov/0064.html
15:13:56 <TallTed> Arnaud: new draft was announced last week.  one issue was raised, with proposal for resolution.
15:15:37 <Arnaud> PROPOSED: Close ISSUE-100 making leading slash of Path expression optional per Alexandre's email
15:16:19 <TallTed> betehess: Path expressions were spec'ed with leading slash; wish was to spec *with* slash, mimicing SPARQL which was not inspiration for this syntax. proposal is to make the slash optional.
15:17:28 <Zakim> + +33.6.47.14.aaaa
15:17:47 <TallTed> ... XPath was inspiration, which uses leading slash to go up a step
15:18:16 <bblfish> q+
15:18:31 <Ashok> q+
15:19:49 <Arnaud> ack bblfish
15:20:47 <TallTed> bblfish: has been using something similar in Scala and BananaRDF.  wonders if the confusion comes from doing Patch before Search.
15:21:31 <betehess> proposed LD path production rule at https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/ldpwg/raw-file/ldpatch/ldpatch.html#grammar-production-path
15:21:40 <betehess>  	path 	::= 	('/'? step | constraint )? ( '/' step | constraint )*
15:21:46 <Arnaud> ack Ashok
15:22:30 <TallTed> Ashok: XPath leading-slash starts at the root of the tree.  what is leading-slash telling us here?
15:23:30 <TallTed> ... what does a path of *just* a slash mean?
15:23:40 <TallTed> betehess: just a slash isn't allowed by the grammar
15:23:42 <bblfish> so a PointedGraph is defined as case class PointedGraph(node: Node, g: Graph)
15:24:09 <pchampin> q+
15:24:14 <betehess> a + 1 + 2 + 3
15:25:01 <sandro> sandro has joined #ldp
15:25:18 <bblfish> https://github.com/InTheNow/banana-rdf/blob/master/rdf/common/src/main/scala/org/w3/banana/PointedGraph.scala
15:25:42 <Arnaud> ack pchampin
15:26:16 <TallTed> pchampin: the path is not self-sufficient, it's relative to what came before it
15:26:31 <sandro> q+
15:26:43 <TallTed> ... in this context, the slash sets relativity to the subject that came before it
15:27:04 <sandro> q+ to say then use a dot, and never put a space before it
15:27:16 <bblfish> q+
15:27:17 <bblfish> https://github.com/w3c/banana-rdf/blob/master/rdf-test-suite/jvm/src/main/scala/org/w3/banana/diesel/DieselGraphExplorationTest.scala
15:27:17 <Arnaud> ack sandro
15:27:17 <Zakim> sandro, you wanted to say then use a dot, and never put a space before it
15:27:20 <betehess> implementing it, you understand why it really makes sense
15:27:23 <betehess> https://github.com/w3c/banana-rdf/blob/topic/ldpatch/ldpatch/src/main/scala/org/w3/banana/ldpatch/Semantics.scala#L181
15:27:33 <bblfish> exactly it's like a dot
15:27:52 <TallTed> sandro: so the slash here is like a dot in most programming languages these days -- subject.name is the subject's name
15:28:01 <sandro> .foo.bar
15:28:03 <sandro> s.foo.bar
15:28:30 <Arnaud> ack bblfish
15:28:37 <TallTed> ... slash tends to suggest filepath or URL
15:28:39 <bblfish> https://github.com/w3c/banana-rdf/blob/master/rdf-test-suite/jvm/src/main/scala/org/w3/banana/diesel/DieselGraphExplorationTest.scala
15:28:48 <bblfish>  betehess / foaf.name
15:28:58 <betehess> it is a bit different in banana...
15:29:02 <ericP> q+ to ask how much a leading '/' shows up in XPath. (I never see it in XSLT.)
15:29:03 <bblfish> val betehess: PointedGraph[Rdf] = (
15:29:05 <bblfish> ... )
15:29:06 <betehess> I know, I implemented it
15:29:29 <betehess> there is no pointed graph here, bblfish
15:29:35 <betehess> no
15:29:43 <sandro> So, there is a space.
15:29:44 <sandro> -1
15:29:52 <Ashok> Eric, I believe a leading / indiactes the root of the doc on Xpath
15:29:56 <sandro> Bind ?event <#> /schema:performerIn
15:29:59 <sandro> Bind ?event <#>/schema:performerIn
15:30:24 <sandro> Bind ?event <#> /schema:performerIn[/schema:url\
15:30:28 <betehess> I don't understand the space argument
15:30:31 <sandro> Bind ?event <#> / schema:performerIn[ / schema:url\
15:32:06 <bblfish> perhaps someting like
15:32:07 <Arnaud> ack ericP
15:32:07 <Zakim> ericP, you wanted to ask how much a leading '/' shows up in XPath. (I never see it in XSLT.)
15:32:12 <bblfish> Bind ?event { <#> /schema:performerIn }
15:32:36 <betehess> yeah, the optional leading / also surprised me
15:32:42 <TallTed> ericP: in XPath, the slash is optional. is there difference between XSLT and XQuery?
15:32:49 <bblfish> Bind ?event { <#>/schema:performerIn }
15:33:20 <TallTed> ... I don't have any leading slashes on paths in the XSLT I've written
15:33:36 <TallTed> s/written/read/
15:34:34 <sandro> q+
15:34:41 <Arnaud> ack sandro
15:34:54 <betehess> i'd be ok with that
15:35:00 <TallTed> sandro: is the solution to make the slash mandatory, and remove the space character from the example code?
15:35:14 <betehess> q+
15:35:29 <TallTed> pchampin: I'd prefer more spaces than fewer.  they make examples much clearer.
15:35:30 <betehess> q-
15:35:40 <sandro> sandro: I'm fine with a space before every slash
15:35:53 <bblfish> bethess "there is no pointed graph here, bblfish" <- that may be the problem in the explanation
15:36:00 <pchampin> Bind ?event <#> / schema:attendee [ / schema:url = <https://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/wiki/F2F5>]  .
15:36:08 <betehess> so, mandatory / and example with space before all /
15:36:16 <pchampin> Bind ?event <#> /schema:attendee [ /schema:url = <https://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/wiki/F2F5>]  .
15:36:31 <pchampin> Bind ?event <#> / schema:attendee [ / schema:url = <https://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/wiki/F2F5>]  .
15:36:50 <betehess> no mandatory space
15:37:06 <TallTed> TallTed: space-slash-space works best for me, for clarity in examples.  doesn't need to be mandatory in code.
15:37:48 <sandro> note the huge difference between " 1+2 " and "1 +2 "
15:37:58 <bblfish> agree spaces should not be mandatory, but in examples they may help clarify things
15:38:09 <TallTed> and "1 + 2" and "1+ 2"
15:38:31 <sandro> right.   asymmetric spacing on operators is very confusion.
15:40:26 <betehess> PROPOSAL: mandatory / in grammar, examples in the spec with symmetric spacing around /
15:40:37 <Arnaud> PROPOSED: Close ISSUE-100 keeping leading slash required, making use of spaces consistent in the examples in the spec
15:40:55 <sandro> +1
15:40:56 <betehess> +1
15:41:05 <roger> +1
15:41:12 <nmihindu> +0
15:41:15 <bblfish> q+1
15:41:17 <pchampin> +1
15:41:21 <bblfish> +!
15:41:23 <bblfish> +1
15:41:24 <TallTed> +1 (it's not a `leading slash` because it's not a part of the element which follows )
15:41:35 <SteveS> +1
15:41:37 <Ashok> +1
15:41:37 <betehess> TallTed, exactly
15:41:45 <sandro> (right, it's the "so-called leading slash")
15:41:59 <bblfish> perhaps introducing the notion of a pointed graph would help.
15:42:23 <Arnaud> RESOLVED: Close ISSUE-100 keeping leading slash required, making use of spaces consistent in the examples in the spec
15:42:38 <TallTed> Topic: Timeline
15:43:02 <betehess> it's a 20 minutes fix (need to update the implementation first, as the grammar is generated from there)
15:43:10 <bblfish> I think it is worth waiting
15:43:31 <TallTed> Arnaud: do we decide to go to CR now, or do we need review time after this change?
15:43:33 <Zakim> -Roger
15:43:43 <bblfish> I'd like to read it, in more detail as it is gathering more support
15:44:18 <TallTed> [ general consensus on taking a week to review, for 2014-12-01 vote on CR ]
15:45:10 <TallTed> Topic: Charter
15:45:48 <betehess> q+
15:45:54 <Arnaud> ack 1
15:45:57 <Arnaud> ack betehess
15:46:02 <TallTed> Arnaud: I've had no objections to current content, and no requests for addition
15:48:24 <bblfish> the specs
15:49:11 <betehess> for us, the most important missing feature is a simple query language
15:52:37 <betehess> me too
15:52:56 <nmihindu> me too, I think it is a very practical model
15:53:00 <bblfish> Arnaud's proposal seems good. One would have to find out how to present featuers on the internet
15:57:08 <Zakim> -TallTed
15:57:15 <betehess> bye!
15:57:16 <Zakim> -Ashok_Malhotra
15:57:21 <Zakim> -nmihindu
15:57:22 <Zakim> -Arnaud
15:57:23 <Zakim> -Sandro
15:57:23 <Zakim> -SteveS
15:57:24 <Zakim> - +33.6.47.14.aaaa
15:57:25 <Zakim> -Alexandre
15:57:28 <Zakim> -EricP
16:05:12 <Zakim> -deiu
16:15:37 <betehess> sandro, can you say which version you prefer?
16:15:38 <betehess> Bind ?event <#>/schema:attendee[/schema:url=<https://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/wiki/F2F5>]  .
16:15:38 <betehess> Bind ?event <#> /schema:attendee [/schema:url=<https://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/wiki/F2F5>]  .
16:15:38 <betehess> Bind ?event <#> / schema:attendee[ / schema:url=<https://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/wiki/F2F5> ]  .
16:15:38 <betehess> Bind ?event <#> / schema:attendee [ / schema:url=<https://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/wiki/F2F5> ]  .
16:15:39 <betehess> Bind ?event <#> /schema:attendee [ /schema:url=<https://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/wiki/F2F5> ]  .
16:15:40 <betehess> or something else?
16:15:58 <betehess> in constraints, the left operand of / is implicit
16:16:15 <betehess> it's like a higher-order function whose argument is the current node
16:16:29 <betehess> so it's hard to "balance" the spacing in that case
16:17:55 <betehess> note: unlike ericP said, / is not for the top node, it's just that at the top-level, we know to which node set to apply the path on
16:18:03 <betehess> I mean, in xpath
16:20:56 <SteveS> I prefer 3 (or 4), though I’m not sandro
16:21:33 <betehess> this can get me started :-)
16:21:52 <betehess> thanks
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16:35:00 <Zakim> disconnecting the lone participant, pchampin, in SW_LDP()10:00AM
16:35:01 <Zakim> SW_LDP()10:00AM has ended
16:35:01 <Zakim> Attendees were Arnaud, deiu, Ashok_Malhotra, Roger, pchampin, SteveS, Sandro, TallTed, Alexandre, EricP, nmihindu, +33.6.47.14.aaaa
17:38:24 <SteveS> SteveS has joined #ldp
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18:58:51 <TallTed> #3 would be my pick.  #4 preserves the confusing appearance that the "/" is part of "/schema".
18:59:39 <betehess> I went for that, plus keeping the spaced around the =
18:59:44 <betehess> *spaces
18:59:47 <TallTed> or... sorry.  can't number in my head.  #4 (better) or #3.  not #5.
19:00:26 <betehess> right now I have:
19:00:27 <betehess> Bind ?event &lt;#&gt; / schema:performerIn[ / schema:url = &lt;https://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/wiki/F2F5&gt; ] .
19:00:46 <betehess> with html entities, sorry :-)
19:00:52 <TallTed> in context of the rest of #3, "attendee[ / schema" looks like an accidental omission
19:01:20 <betehess> this can be debated, as [...] is a filter on what's preceding
19:01:35 <TallTed> "attendee [ / schema" reads more consistent, to my eye -- particularly given the "> ]  ." at the end
19:01:52 <betehess> well, one is inside, the other is outside
19:01:59 <betehess> but I really don't care
19:02:24 <betehess> as Steve said he was also considering 4), I can just go with it as well
19:02:33 <TallTed> on the right-end, the square bracket is surrounded by spaces.  on the left-end, it's not.  that's inconsistent presentation, regardless of syntactical validity.
19:03:15 <TallTed> (this is where my history in graphic design, layout, and publishing jumps in)
19:04:21 <betehess> note that my argument was not about (in)consistent presentation, rather about conveying the intent
19:04:37 <betehess> and note that I absolutely don't care about this specific issue
19:04:47 <betehess> which is why I am going with it :-)
19:51:45 <TallTed> :-)
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