15:01:52 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #dpub
15:01:52 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/11/24-dpub-irc
15:01:54 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
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15:01:56 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be dpub
15:01:56 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see DPUB_DPUBIG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 59 minutes
15:01:57 <trackbot> Meeting: Digital Publishing Interest Group Teleconference
15:01:57 <trackbot> Date: 24 November 2014
15:05:21 <ivan> ivan has changed the topic to: agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-digipub-ig/2014Nov/0084.html
15:05:25 <ivan> agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-digipub-ig/2014Nov/0084.html
15:07:21 <ivan> Regrets: Phil
15:32:35 <ivan> Regrets+ Laura
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15:57:13 <Zakim> DPUB_DPUBIG()11:00AM has now started
15:57:22 <Zakim> +Tzviya
15:57:51 <Zakim> +MikeMiller
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15:58:08 <Zakim> +dauwhe
15:58:15 <Zakim> +clapierre
15:58:49 <Zakim> +Stearns
15:58:52 <Zakim> -MikeMiller
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15:59:06 <Zakim> +duga
15:59:30 <Zakim> +MikeMiller
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15:59:47 <Zakim> +??P7
15:59:48 <Zakim> +Karen_Myers
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16:00:09 <murakami> zakim, ??P7 is me
16:00:09 <Zakim> +murakami; got it
16:00:30 <Zakim> +Vlad
16:00:36 <Zakim> +astein
16:00:39 <Zakim> +Markus
16:00:40 <Zakim> +[Safari]
16:00:48 <mgylling> regrets: Laura Fowler, Madi Solomon, Susann Keohane, Phil Madans, Julie Morris, Liza Daly, Rob Sanderson
16:00:51 <AH_Miller> For those who know Tony Graham, he now works for Antenna House
16:00:52 <dkaplan3> zakim, [Safari] is me
16:00:52 <Zakim> +dkaplan3; got it
16:01:02 <Zakim> +Bert
16:01:03 <Zakim> +Bill_Kasdorf
16:01:14 <Zakim> +pkra
16:01:20 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip
16:01:20 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made
16:01:22 <Zakim> +Ivan
16:01:53 <ivan> Regrets+ Rob, Liza
16:02:03 <bjdmeest> bjdmeest has joined #dpub
16:02:36 <ivan> Chair: markus
16:02:46 <mgylling> zakim, who is here?
16:02:46 <Zakim> On the phone I see Tzviya, dauwhe, clapierre, Stearns, duga, MikeMiller, murakami, Karen_Myers, Vlad, astein, Markus, dkaplan3, Bert, Bill_Kasdorf, pkra, Ivan
16:02:50 <Zakim> On IRC I see bjdmeest, pkra, Vlad, Bill_Kasdorf, murakami, Bert, AH_Miller, clapierre, brady_duga, astein, tzviya, mgylling, Zakim, RRSAgent, dauwhe, Karen, fjh, ivan, liam_,
16:02:50 <Zakim> ... astearns, iank_, mihnea_____, plinss, rego, dkaplan3, trackbot
16:02:50 <Zakim> +Ruben
16:02:56 <bjdmeest> zakim, Ruben is me
16:02:56 <Zakim> +bjdmeest; got it
16:03:00 <tmichel> tmichel has joined #dpub
16:03:02 <david_stroup> david_stroup has joined #dpub
16:03:02 <tzviya> Regrets+ Julie, Azaroth
16:03:04 <bjdmeest> Present+ Ben_De_Meester
16:03:23 <TimCole> TimCole has joined #dpub
16:03:23 <pkra> mgylling approve last week's minutes.
16:03:31 <ivan> scribenick: pkra
16:03:38 <pkra> ... no objections. minutes are approved.
16:03:54 <Zakim> +Thierry
16:03:58 <pkra> ... two topics: 1) Pagination & APIs (brad_duga)
16:04:01 <Zakim> + +1.585.217.aaaa
16:04:05 <pkra> ... see link in agenda to wiki page
16:04:10 <bjdmeest> https://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/Pagination_Requirements
16:04:11 <ivan> -> https://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/Pagination_Requirements Brady's list
16:04:17 <pkra> ... figure out where we're going and what's needed to finish
16:04:29 <david_stroup> I'm 585.217
16:04:31 <pkra> ... 2) latinrec, dauwhe about pagination
16:04:37 <Zakim> +TimCole
16:04:38 <ivan> zakim, aaaa is david_stroup
16:04:39 <Zakim> +david_stroup; got it
16:04:41 <pkra> ... etc.
16:05:41 <pkra> brady_duga my attempt at outlining the issues a reading systems might have trying to implement on top of browser engine.
16:06:01 <pkra> ... these are those I've heard, seen discussions on
16:06:08 <pkra> ... not representative.
16:06:12 <pkra> ... some empty sections.
16:06:24 <pkra> ... need more fleshing out, outlines, diagrams etc.
16:06:40 <pkra> ... would like to see other implementors to add, object, correct.
16:06:43 <dauwhe> q+
16:06:51 <pkra> ... after feedback I'd like to go back and fill in details.
16:06:53 <astearns> q+
16:07:01 <mgylling> q?
16:07:06 <mgylling> ack dauwhe
16:07:36 <pkra> dauwhe reminds me of interest for the IG. Quite a few of these requirements are aobut allowing the reader to change the aspects of renderin.
16:07:54 <pkra> ... one of *the* continuing challenges for ebook reading system since the early days.
16:08:01 <ivan> +1 to dave
16:08:09 <pkra> ... should the IG look into this more generally/specifically?
16:08:25 <pkra> ... allowing user control over presentation .
16:08:36 <pkra> ... user style sheets prove not powerful enough
16:08:53 <tzviya> q+
16:08:59 <pkra> brady_duga for the general populace is interested in this for ebooks but less so for general websites.
16:09:14 <pkra> ... in particular for a11y
16:09:16 <mgylling> q?
16:09:29 <pkra> ... Definitely an important area.
16:09:45 <mgylling> ack astearns
16:09:49 <pkra> ... I tried to stay away from solutions, how to address these isssues as there usually are several directions for that.
16:10:06 <pkra> astearns thanks for this helpful document!
16:10:30 <pkra> ... re section "segmenting content". Is this for partial layout (from certain page on) or something else?
16:10:44 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
16:10:55 <pkra> brady_duga: mostly memory. not loading everyhting on devices with small memory.
16:11:07 <pkra> ... e.g., King James bible
16:11:24 <pkra> ... but also load for chapter.
16:12:40 <pkra> asterans for pagination has several ways. Lack of css regions; there are good polyfills.
16:12:50 <pkra> brady_duga yes, css regions shouldbe added.
16:13:15 <pkra> ... for overflow scroll. Are people using this? Do browsers have this?
16:13:28 <pkra> dauwhe: didn't opera/presto do it?
16:13:40 <pkra> brady_duga: right.
16:13:45 <Bert> (there was a special version of Opera available at some point. I still use it every once in a while :-) )
16:13:49 <mgylling> q?
16:14:09 <pkra> brady_duga I will add overflow scroll not widely implemented and section on css regions.
16:14:15 <mgylling> ack tzviya
16:14:46 <pkra> tzviya a) personalization tools for ebooks are common to websites as well (e.g., font size)
16:15:14 <pkra> ... relative report: the discovery of changing font size on newspaper homepage can mean the world.
16:15:17 <Bert> (Actually, I think the last Presto-based version of Opera has it, with an -o- prefix.)
16:15:34 <fjh> zakim, code?
16:15:34 <Zakim> the conference code is 3782 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), fjh
16:15:37 <pkra> brady_duga Yes, should be added. Others (Night-mode etc.) is less common.
16:15:52 <pkra> mgylling Q: does it belong in this document?
16:16:01 <pkra> ... is this specific to paginated media?
16:16:04 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
16:16:07 <fjh> zakim, ipcaller is me
16:16:07 <Zakim> +fjh; got it
16:16:29 <pkra> brady_duga: yes, this branched out to more problems of implementing reading system on top of browser
16:16:49 <pkra> tzviya another one: citations / stable reference could be mentioned in this context
16:17:54 <pkra> astearns user customization is more general issue but crucial in paginated views as it affects reflow / relayout has to be maintained.
16:18:20 <pkra> brady_duga: in particular, page numbers can end up completely wrong after customization.
16:18:29 <mgylling> q?
16:18:38 <mgylling> ack Bill_K
16:19:23 <Zakim> -Stearns
16:19:33 <pkra> Bill_K: a) on personalization. in the ebook context, it tends to be done globally, not so much per document. This might be a difference compared to the web.
16:20:05 <Zakim> +Stearns
16:20:13 <pkra> brady_duga: good point. However, e.g., font size might want to change depending on the book and its design.
16:20:30 <pkra> Bill_K: right. Also context. On a treadmill, I'll increase font size.
16:20:59 <mgylling> q?
16:21:07 <pkra> ... in scholarly context, another segmentation use case is keeping a particular piece of content fixed while scrolling through content.
16:21:12 <pkra> brady_duga: I'll add that.
16:21:33 <tzviya> zakim, who is noisy?
16:21:45 <Zakim> tzviya, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: duga (41%), murakami (28%), Markus (14%)
16:21:46 <pkra> mgylling: brady_duga you asked for feedback from implementors. How do we gather this once the document is a bit more complete.
16:22:42 <pkra> brady_duga: If people could take it back to their respective organizations. If you know an implementor, please hook us up.
16:22:45 <pkra> ... Readium, Apple, Adobe.
16:22:59 <Bill_Kasdorf> I'm hearing a lot of echo and feedback
16:23:05 <pkra> ... if they're on the group, that'd be good.
16:23:31 <pkra> Ivan: Apple is on, but time zone Canberra => difficult.
16:23:57 <pkra> mgylling: should we start immediately or do you want to give it another pass first?
16:24:25 <pkra> brady_duga: let's say 2 weeks until outreach (given it's Thanksgiving week)
16:25:10 <pkra> mgylling: what are thoughts on the personalization in this document?
16:25:35 <pkra> ??? it's fine in there. accessibility is one part of personalization. But treadmill example shows it's wider.
16:25:54 <mgylling> s/???/dkaplan/
16:25:59 <pkra> ... but we should talk to each other since a11y is critical.
16:26:05 <pkra> (thx)
16:26:40 <pkra> ???: agreed. Benetech is interested in both.
16:26:45 <mgylling> q?
16:26:52 <tzviya> s/???/clapierre
16:27:48 <pkra> brady_duga: I'll do another pass, then reach out to the usual suspects. Does this need to be respec?
16:28:03 <dauwhe> http://w3c.github.io/dpub-pagination/#the-spatial-geometry-of-pages-spreads-and-bleeds
16:28:05 <pkra> Ivan: let me know when you're at that point.
16:28:13 <pkra> mgylling: moving on.
16:28:43 <pkra> dauwhe: at last F2F I've added a section to latinrec about spatial geometry of pages (spreads, bleeds etc)
16:29:11 <pkra> ... just some basics (crossing the gutter, orientations, sizes, objects bleeding off the page etc)
16:29:25 <pkra> ... would like more examples on usual things in this area.
16:29:35 <pkra> ... in particular, pages of different orientation (e.g., table)
16:30:17 <pkra> ... what are the other circumstances we need to document?
16:30:43 <pkra> ... going back to the mothership jrrec.
16:31:23 <pkra> ... looking for examples: how running heads are positioned; what content appears (has come up on www-style again.
16:31:45 <pkra> ... in particular, special content (dates, filenames, stored inattributes, that needs processing)
16:31:46 <pkra> ...
16:31:50 <tzviya> s/jrrec/jlreq
16:32:03 <pkra> (thx)
16:32:08 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
16:32:10 <pkra> ... want to display machine readable content in human readable form.
16:32:19 <pkra> ... this needs some publishing use cases.
16:32:21 <ivan> q+
16:32:54 <mgylling> q?
16:32:59 <mgylling> ack Bill_K
16:33:45 <pkra> Bill_K: the difference between generated and literal text. often programmatic (Ch.Sec etc). In most books the text is too long, so publishers provide short forms so sometimes you need to access the shortened version, sometimes the actual content .
16:33:50 <mgylling> ack ivan
16:33:59 <pkra> dauwhe: yes, I will add it.
16:34:11 <pkra> ... another issue unique to pagination: continued lines.
16:34:25 <pkra> ... can of worms but needs documenting.
16:34:49 <pkra> ... e.g. tables are split, headers are repeated, what gets copied from page to page, what isn't
16:34:58 <pkra> Bill_K: another one is footnotes.
16:35:12 <pkra> dauwhe: I'd be interested in examples.
16:35:20 <pkra> Bill_K: important in legal
16:35:34 <pkra> dauwhe: could you send a screenshot?
16:35:42 <pkra> mgylling: tzviya might help.
16:36:05 <pkra> Ivan: purely technical: the way you described the bleed seems bound to printed books?
16:36:11 <pkra> ... how is this relevant to digital publishing?
16:36:33 <pkra> dauwhe: in general, relevant for digital publishing as we need to extend objects to the edge of the viewable area.
16:36:53 <pkra> ... this has held back higher-design ebooks since reading systems that add borders etc.
16:37:04 <tzviya> q+
16:37:11 <pkra> ... also, latinrec is documenting print practices.
16:37:23 <pkra> Ivan: the use case in this document is related to large piece of paper that is folded and cut.
16:37:32 <pkra> ... a use case for digital books would make sense.
16:38:10 <tmichel> zakim, who is here?
16:38:10 <Zakim> On the phone I see Tzviya, dauwhe, clapierre, duga, MikeMiller, murakami (muted), Karen_Myers, Vlad, astein, Markus, dkaplan3, Bert, Bill_Kasdorf, pkra, Ivan, bjdmeest, Thierry,
16:38:15 <Zakim> ... david_stroup, TimCole, fjh, Stearns
16:38:15 <Zakim> On IRC I see TimCole, david_stroup, tmichel, bjdmeest, pkra, Vlad, Bill_Kasdorf, murakami, Bert, AH_Miller, clapierre, brady_duga, astein, tzviya, mgylling, Zakim, RRSAgent,
16:38:15 <Zakim> ... dauwhe, Karen, fjh, ivan, liam_, astearns, iank_, mihnea_____, plinss, rego, dkaplan3, trackbot
16:38:25 <pkra> Bill_K: the going past the page is a relict of print. You don't want to go over the edge but to the edge.
16:38:44 <pkra> brady_duga: about bleeds. We have had some use cases where we had wanted bleeds.
16:38:48 <mgylling> ack tzviya
16:39:24 <pkra> tzviya: beyond diagrams, it might help the doc to describe things we can't actually do in digital.
16:39:25 <astearns> allowing content to extend past a scroll boundary is the digital equivalent of a bleed
16:39:40 <pkra> ... crossing the gutter we can't actually do in CSS.
16:40:16 <pkra> ... for bleed, we could have a diagram showing a table rendering
16:40:19 <mgylling> q?
16:40:21 <pkra> ... with others we should point out it's not possible.
16:40:38 <pkra> dauwhe: impossible examples are especially welcome
16:41:13 <pkra> ... will create mockups from tzviya's (coyprighted) examples
16:42:10 <pkra> mgylling: any other examples we missed?
16:42:22 <pkra> dauwhe: another huge area of examples (not books): office documents.
16:42:52 <pkra> tzivya: will provide you with turned tables.
16:43:16 <pkra> mgylling: ch4 will be expanded.
16:43:38 <pkra> ... @dauwhe is it complete?
16:44:10 <mgylling> q?
16:44:13 <pkra> dauwhe: it should be sufficient.
16:45:04 <pkra> dauwhe: another item from Santa Clara F2F, paginated digital environment might need different metaphor for arranging pages.
16:45:15 <pkra> ... ebook readers you often swipe in
16:45:26 <pkra> ... but in othersituations page might be below.
16:45:33 <pkra> ... discuss how pages are arranged.
16:46:58 <pkra> mgylling: make sure a spread can be more than 2.
16:47:04 <pkra> ... make clear it's unbounded.
16:47:15 <pkra> dauwhe: yes. Examples would be very valuable.
16:47:29 <mgylling> q?
16:47:37 <pkra> mgylling: next steps?
16:48:07 <pkra> ... when should we follow up?
16:48:35 <pkra> dauwhe: mid-December sounds good.
16:48:50 <tzviya> +1
16:48:52 <astearns> +1
16:49:36 <pkra> mgylling: Ivan and I are publishing the whitepaper we discussed.
16:49:49 <pkra> ... not perfect timing this week.
16:49:58 <pkra> ... but more outreach later.
16:50:05 <dauwhe> q+
16:50:12 <mgylling> q?
16:50:16 <mgylling> ack dauwhe
16:50:19 <pkra> Bill_K: can this be referenced public(talks)?
16:50:22 <pkra> mgylling: yes.
16:50:52 <pkra> dauwhe: re alignment between CSSWG and epub-next.
16:51:15 <pkra> ... correction: IG, not WG.
16:51:22 <dauwhe> s/CSSWG/DPUB/
16:51:24 <pkra> ... would be useful to focus on various aspects of epub-next.
16:52:00 <pkra> mgylling: idea is if there's support for it from various stakeholders, then it's likely that the IG work will change a lot.
16:52:09 <pkra> ... one of those would relate to styling and layout.
16:52:25 <pkra> ... more bi-directional exchange.
16:52:40 <pkra> Ivan: the document is on GitHub.
16:52:56 <pkra> ... community will (hopefully) give us comments, use issue tracker.
16:53:04 <pkra> ... iterate on the document
16:53:23 <pkra> ... and obviously DPUB is critical group of ppl for this.
16:53:45 <tmichel> tmichel has joined #dpub
16:53:49 <pkra> brady_duga: did we settle on a day for next F2F?
16:54:06 <Karen> q+
16:54:07 <pkra> tzviya: May 26, before IDPF conf at BEA at new Hachette offices, NYC.
16:54:14 <mgylling> ack Karen
16:54:17 <tmichel> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:54:17 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/11/24-dpub-minutes.html tmichel
16:55:03 <pkra> dkaplan: is new antenna house memeber (Tony Graham) on the call today?
16:55:20 <pkra> ??? no but will hopefully join.
16:55:24 <pkra> np
16:55:33 <Zakim> -duga
16:55:34 <Zakim> -astein
16:55:34 <Zakim> -Markus
16:55:35 <ivan> s/???/Tony Graham/
16:55:35 <Zakim> -Bill_Kasdorf
16:55:36 <Zakim> -fjh
16:55:37 <Zakim> -dkaplan3
16:55:37 <Zakim> -Vlad
16:55:38 <Zakim> -clapierre
16:55:38 <Zakim> -Ivan
16:55:38 <Zakim> -Karen_Myers
16:55:38 <tzviya> s/???/tony graham
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16:55:40 <Zakim> -TimCole
16:55:41 <Zakim> -Stearns
16:55:41 <Zakim> -pkra
16:55:42 <Zakim> -MikeMiller
16:55:43 <Zakim> -bjdmeest
16:55:43 <Zakim> -Bert
16:55:45 <Zakim> -david_stroup
16:55:45 <Zakim> -Tzviya
16:55:45 <Zakim> -dauwhe
16:55:49 <Zakim> -murakami
16:55:49 <tmichel> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:55:49 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/11/24-dpub-minutes.html tmichel
16:56:56 <Zakim> -Thierry
16:56:57 <Zakim> DPUB_DPUBIG()11:00AM has ended
16:56:57 <Zakim> Attendees were Tzviya, MikeMiller, dauwhe, clapierre, Stearns, duga, Karen_Myers, murakami, Vlad, astein, Markus, dkaplan3, Bert, Bill_Kasdorf, pkra, Ivan, bjdmeest, Thierry,
16:56:57 <Zakim> ... +1.585.217.aaaa, TimCole, david_stroup, fjh
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