20:28:13 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #svg
20:28:13 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/11/20-svg-irc
20:28:15 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
20:28:15 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #svg
20:28:17 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be GA_SVGWG
20:28:17 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see GA_SVGWG()3:30PM scheduled to start in 2 minutes
20:28:18 <trackbot> Meeting: SVG Working Group Teleconference
20:28:18 <trackbot> Date: 20 November 2014
20:28:45 <Zakim> GA_SVGWG()3:30PM has now started
20:28:53 <Zakim> +krit
20:28:57 <smailus> smailus has joined #svg
20:29:19 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
20:29:27 <birtles> Zakim, [ is me
20:29:27 <Zakim> +birtles; got it
20:30:01 <Zakim> +Thomas_Smailus
20:30:08 <Zakim> +??P6
20:30:19 <stakagi> Zakim, ??P6 is me
20:30:19 <Zakim> +stakagi; got it
20:30:30 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
20:30:31 <heycam> Zakim, [ is me
20:30:31 <Zakim> +heycam; got it
20:30:57 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
20:31:03 <ed> Zakim, [IP is me
20:31:03 <Zakim> +ed; got it
20:31:04 <heycam> Chair: Cameron
20:31:09 <heycam> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2014OctDec/0066.html
20:31:15 <heycam> Zakim, who is on the call?
20:31:15 <Zakim> On the phone I see krit, birtles, Thomas_Smailus, stakagi, heycam, ed
20:31:47 <Zakim> +??P9
20:31:51 <Zakim> +??P10
20:31:55 <nikos> Zakim, ?P9 is me
20:31:55 <Zakim> sorry, nikos, I do not recognize a party named '?P9'
20:31:59 <nikos> Zakim, ??P9 is me
20:31:59 <Zakim> +nikos; got it
20:32:22 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
20:32:28 <Zakim> +Doug_Schepers
20:32:30 <Zakim> -Doug_Schepers
20:32:37 <Zakim> -nikos
20:32:48 <Zakim> +Doug_Schepers
20:32:51 <BogdanBrinza> BogdanBrinza has joined #svg
20:33:03 <nikos> Zakim, ??P10 is me
20:33:03 <Zakim> +nikos; got it
20:33:06 <Zakim> +??P9
20:33:25 <Tav> ??P9 is me
20:33:36 <Tav> zakim, ??P9 is me
20:33:36 <Zakim> +Tav; got it
20:35:29 <heycam> Zakim, pick a scribe
20:35:29 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose ed
20:36:15 <ed> scribeNick: ed
20:36:51 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
20:37:10 <LJWatson> LJWatson has joined #svg
20:37:19 <ed> topic: How to write tests for SVG 2
20:37:37 <ed> TS: I'd written a test for tspans, based on svg 1.1 tests
20:37:53 <ed> ... checked into old repo, not sure it was carried over to the new github repo
20:38:01 <Zakim> -birtles
20:38:07 <ed> CM: the tests were not moved over to github
20:38:26 <ed> ... we decided that we should move our tests to the w3c web-platform-tests repository
20:38:28 <Zakim> +[IPcaller.a]
20:38:32 <Zakim> +TabAtkins
20:39:12 <ed> ... I was given an action to create a few simple examples for scripted test, a reftest
20:39:28 <ed> TS: the old repo had an svg2-tests repository
20:39:42 <ed> CM: right, the new github repo only contains the specs, not tests
20:40:05 <ed> ... once we have sorted out how to put tests on web-platform-tests we will move the tests from svg2-tests
20:40:24 <Zakim> -stakagi
20:40:36 <ed> DS: so, heycam, you'll ping james graham for how to get that going, right?
20:40:38 <ed> CM: yes
20:40:49 <ed> TS: james is the guy behind web-platform-tests?
20:40:52 <ed> DS: yes
20:42:06 <Tav> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2/Testing_Requirements
20:42:10 <ed> ... ok, so we will get some beginners documentation
20:42:27 <ed> Tav: the page I just pasted in needs to be updated
20:42:49 <Zakim> +??P6
20:42:52 <ed> DS: most instructions should still apply
20:43:18 <stakagi> Zakim, ??P6 is me
20:43:18 <Zakim> +stakagi; got it
20:43:26 <ed> TS: where in the directory structure tests should go, naming scheme etc, that sort of thing is missing atm
20:43:37 <ed> CM: I'll do that
20:44:17 <ed> ACTION: heycam to write up documentation for directory structure, test naming scheme for the svg tests on web-platform-tests
20:44:18 <trackbot> Created ACTION-3688 - Write up documentation for directory structure, test naming scheme for the svg tests on web-platform-tests [on Cameron McCormack - due 2014-11-27].
20:44:39 <ed> topic: status update
20:45:03 <ed> CM: what is the status of svg2 plan?
20:45:19 <ed> ... based on the TPAC discussions
20:45:27 <ed> ... what are the most urgent parts?
20:45:48 <ed> krit: do as many edits as possible until february, things that aren't done by then get removed
20:46:05 <ed> CM: so, should we remove things that are half-written?
20:46:14 <ed> krit: we should try to publish more often
20:46:30 <ed> ... we can delay things until the next revision
20:46:40 <BogdanBrinza> and my mic appears to not be working and I had a plan to drive the investigation of stable vs moving parts
20:46:58 <ed> TS: yes, iterating on what we have, to publish 2.1, 2.2 etc
20:47:02 <Zakim> -nikos
20:47:07 <Zakim> -stakagi
20:47:11 <ed> CM: faster turnaround and fewer features sounds good to me
20:47:26 <Zakim> +??P1
20:47:31 <nikos> Zakim, ??P1 is me
20:47:31 <Zakim> +nikos; got it
20:47:49 <ed> DS: ppl being disappointed about missing features, we need to improve the communication on how we intend to adress this (faster iterations)
20:47:55 <Zakim> +??P3
20:48:07 <stakagi> Zakim, ??P3 is me
20:48:07 <Zakim> +stakagi; got it
20:48:10 <ed> krit: we should publish every six weeks
20:48:48 <ed> CM: what were the next steps?
20:48:50 <BogdanBrinza> Yes, I'm putting the plan together now
20:49:09 <BogdanBrinza> and would update the action and put this on agenda for next week to figure out what can we do, yes
20:49:19 <ed> krit: [something]... by february
20:49:29 <ed> ... the plan was to publish the LC in feb
20:49:32 <smailus> Asthetically it may be ugly, but communicating that the published version in March 2015 is SVG 2.0 is important to communicate that this isn't the whole "SVG 2" spec.
20:49:39 <Zakim> -stakagi
20:49:56 <BogdanBrinza> LOL I'll make sure to check Hawaii plan as well
20:50:16 <ed> CM: I'll wait until next week and pick things off that list
20:50:25 <ed> ... thank you for the update
20:50:26 <Zakim> +??P3
20:50:35 <ed> topic: focus and navigation
20:50:50 <stakagi> Zakim, ??P3 is me
20:50:50 <Zakim> +stakagi; got it
20:51:01 <ed> DS: I was comparing focus and navigation from svg 1, 1.2 Tiny and 2.0
20:51:09 <ed> ... there's been a lot more focus stuff added in 2.0
20:51:28 <ed> ... it's scattered over the spec, we need to focus it more
20:51:44 <ed> ... I gave a webinar about svg a11y yesterday
20:51:45 <shepazu> http://schepers.cc/svg/accessibility/focus/
20:52:19 <shepazu> http://schepers.cc/svg/accessibility/focus/focus-tabindex.html
20:52:50 <ed> krit: it does work in safari
20:53:15 <ed> CM: reason for it not working in firefox is I need to review some patches for tabindex in svg
20:53:29 <ed> DS: another issue around tabindex...
20:53:43 <ed> ... if you look at the first one on the left, tab and it goes in order
20:53:47 <ed> ... the same on the circles
20:53:56 <BogdanBrinza> it somewhat works in IE..
20:54:00 <ed> ... the ones that light up green have a link
20:54:14 <ed> ... tried to get it to work, based on an old test i wrote
20:54:23 <ed> ... worked in chrome
20:54:31 <ed> ... wasn't satisfied with the wording in the spec
20:54:54 <ed> ... there's also some bit that defers to html5, I think we should resolve on those things
20:55:25 <ed> ... out of order tab navigation, when you set the tabindex to a positive number
20:55:38 <ed> ... the first instance I numbered 0-12 in that order
20:55:49 <ed> ... in the second one I set them to tabindex=0
20:56:05 <ed> ... which means order is document order, not in visual order
20:56:28 <ed> ... apparently there's some probelems with setting to positive values
20:56:39 <ed> ... current recommendation is for ppl to use tabindex=0
20:57:03 <Zakim> -stakagi
20:57:25 <ed> ... based on an issue that Florian raised for CSS UI level 3, they're going to move nav-index to level 4
20:57:44 <ed> CM: nav-index is similar to tab-index, but in css?
20:57:48 <Zakim> +??P3
20:57:54 <ed> DS: don't know honestly, but I think that's right
20:58:20 <ed> CM: I saw the post on the public-svg-wg list about deferring it to level 4
20:58:57 <ed> DS: want to know more about it, how should we handle making things focusable
20:59:01 <ed> ... and navigation
20:59:11 <stakagi> Zakim, ??P3 is me
20:59:11 <Zakim> +stakagi; got it
21:00:07 <heycam> Zakim, who is making noise?
21:00:20 <Zakim> heycam, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Thomas_Smailus (9%), Doug_Schepers (5%)
21:01:35 <shepazu> Zakim, who's noisy?
21:01:48 <Zakim> shepazu, listening for 12 seconds I heard sound from the following: nikos (12%), heycam (28%), Doug_Schepers (42%)
21:02:46 <Zakim> -nikos
21:03:13 <ed> DS: looking for help to work on focus and navigation, anyone interested?
21:03:32 <ed> ED, CM, LJWatson: yes
21:03:42 <Zakim> +??P1
21:03:46 <nikos> Zakim, ??P1 is me
21:03:46 <Zakim> +nikos; got it
21:04:15 <ed> DS: [...] not exposing the focused element in voice
21:04:36 <ed> ... we should try to make sure svg2 has these things exposed to a11y apis in SVG
21:04:44 <ed> ... would like to see that across browsers
21:04:47 <ed> ... and tests
21:05:20 <ed> ... public-svg-a11y is the mailinglist
21:05:33 <ed> ... you can subscribe, or ping me and I'll add you
21:05:48 <ed> ... the svg-a11y-tf has launched
21:06:12 <ed> krit: the work in webkit [...] don't have that much time anymore
21:06:20 <ed> DS: we'll figure it out
21:06:46 <ed> topic: mailinglist policy
21:07:00 <ed> DS: svg was one of the first WGs to do all work in the public
21:07:23 <ed> ... we wasnt sure how this was going to work at the time, so we setup a parallell mailinglist (public-svg-wg)
21:07:32 <ed> ... not clear to me that we should use that one
21:07:42 <ed> ... it's not really public, just publicly readable
21:07:57 <ed> ... I propose that we close that mailinglist
21:08:03 <ed> ... and that we do all our work on www-svg
21:08:19 <ed> nikos: we already resolved to do that
21:08:30 <ed> ... we jsut havent executed it
21:08:40 <nikos> http://www.w3.org/2013/09/19-svg-minutes.html#item03
21:09:14 <ed> CM: sgtm, we may need to upadet some things first
21:09:26 <ed> ... the repository notification emails
21:09:32 <ed> ... and [missed]
21:09:48 <ed> DS: other groups have tracker go to the public list
21:10:01 <ed> CM: that could get noisy
21:10:13 <ed> DS: so we could send those to the public-svg-wg list then?
21:10:23 <ed> CM: ok, sounds good
21:11:54 <ed> RESOLUTION: we will deactivate public-svg-wg, keeping the archives, repository changes will go to the w3c-svg-wg and tracker + technical discussions to www-svg
21:12:39 <ed> DS: agenda items should also go to www-svg
21:13:22 <heycam> ScribeNick: heycam
21:13:30 <ed> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/Agenda
21:13:42 <heycam> Topic: paint server rendering when objectBoundingBox is zero
21:13:47 <heycam> ISSUE-2416
21:13:47 <trackbot> ISSUE-2416 -- Consider allowing zero height or width bbox gradients, and/or adjusting the bbox for stroke to be the actual stroke region -- raised
21:13:47 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2416
21:13:54 <heycam> ed: this is an old issue we've had open for a while
21:14:02 <heycam> ... I recently came across this while browsing bug reports for Chrome and Opera
21:14:08 <heycam> ... I created a test
21:14:13 <ed> http://jsfiddle.net/e7o46dgL/
21:14:34 <heycam> ... this is to show that current implementations render paint servers even if the shape element has an empty bounding box
21:14:48 <heycam> ... the spec doesn't agree with this
21:14:53 <heycam> krit: we did have a test for it?
21:15:01 <heycam> ... a line with a gradient or stroke, and it was black
21:15:15 <heycam> ... I remember having to implement it for Cairo because it could not render it
21:15:19 <heycam> ed: that's the only browser I haven't tested
21:15:24 <heycam> ... if you have Safari there?
21:15:47 <heycam> ... I think we should update the spec to say that it should render
21:15:57 <ed> https://svgwg.org/svg2-draft/coords.html#ObjectBoundingBoxUnits
21:16:13 <heycam> ... the last para in that section
21:16:18 <heycam> krit: did you test with gradients?
21:16:21 <heycam> ed: should be the same thing
21:16:23 <heycam> krit: not necessarily
21:16:30 <heycam> ed: they're both in terms of the bounding box
21:16:37 <heycam> krit: but they can be implemented differently
21:16:58 <heycam> ... there's a difference between how graphics libraries handle gradients and patterns
21:17:19 <heycam> ... with the assumption that it has the same behaviour for gradients, I agree with your change
21:17:24 <heycam> ed: and if not?
21:17:27 <heycam> krit: go with the majority
21:17:41 <heycam> ed: for animation, it doesn't make sense that fill or stroke goes missing if it's zero sized bbox
21:18:03 <heycam> heycam: was this one of the 1.1 errata issues?
21:18:10 <heycam> ed: don't know that it was
21:18:45 <Zakim> -nikos
21:18:50 <heycam> ... the spec text doesn't call out patterns explicitly
21:19:01 <ed> "When the geometry of the applicable element has no width or height and objectBoundingBox is specified, then the given effect (e.g., a gradient or a filter) will be ignored."
21:19:14 <Zakim> +??P1
21:19:17 <nikos> Zakim, ??P1 is me
21:19:17 <Zakim> +nikos; got it
21:19:53 <ed> http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG11/coords.html#ObjectBoundingBoxUnits
21:20:17 <heycam> ed: there's an additional sentence in SVG 2
21:21:04 <heycam> heycam: I agree with your proposal
21:21:36 <heycam> ed: if you animate a straight line, rotating, you don't expect the paint server to stop applying at a certain point
21:21:58 <heycam> ... maybe not the transform itself, but adjusting x1/y1/etc.
21:22:17 <heycam> ... I'm fine with creating a few more test cases for gradients, and filters as well
21:22:39 <Zakim> -krit
21:23:19 <heycam> ACTION: Erik to make some tests for gradients on zero-sized bbox
21:23:19 <trackbot> Created ACTION-3689 - Make some tests for gradients on zero-sized bbox [on Erik Dahlström - due 2014-11-27].
21:24:00 <Zakim> -Thomas_Smailus
21:24:06 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
21:24:10 <Zakim> -TabAtkins
21:24:35 <Zakim> -Tav
21:24:37 <Zakim> -nikos
21:24:38 <Zakim> -heycam
21:24:39 <Zakim> -Doug_Schepers
21:24:40 <Zakim> -stakagi
21:24:43 <Zakim> -birtles
21:24:46 <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
21:24:47 <Zakim> -ed
21:24:47 <Zakim> GA_SVGWG()3:30PM has ended
21:24:47 <Zakim> Attendees were krit, [IPcaller], birtles, Thomas_Smailus, stakagi, heycam, ed, nikos, [Microsoft], Doug_Schepers, Tav, TabAtkins
21:24:58 <heycam> thanks for calling in stakagi and birtles, sorry about the new telcon time! :)
21:26:29 <heycam> RRSAgent, make minutes
21:26:29 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/11/20-svg-minutes.html heycam
21:27:36 <heycam> Present: Dirk, Leonie, Brian, Thomas, Satoru, Cameron, Erik, Nikos, Bogdan, Doug, Tav, Tab
21:27:39 <heycam> RRSAgent, make minutes
21:27:39 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/11/20-svg-minutes.html heycam
23:26:12 <jdaggett> jdaggett has joined #svg