19:55:17 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aapi
19:55:17 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/11/18-aapi-irc
19:55:19 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs member
19:55:19 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #aapi
19:55:21 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAI_PF
19:55:21 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see WAI_PFWG(AAPI)3:00PM scheduled to start in 5 minutes
19:55:22 <trackbot> Meeting: Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference
19:55:22 <trackbot> Date: 18 November 2014
19:55:49 <clown> chair:  Joseph_Scheuhammer
19:55:51 <clown> agenda: this
19:55:59 <clown> agenda+ ISSUE-587/ACTION-1528: (David) Investigate the proper ia2 mappings for aria-current.
19:56:06 <clown> agenda+ ISSUE-587/ACTION-1527: (Cynthia) Investigate the proper uia mappings for aria-current.
19:56:13 <clown> agenda+ ISSUE-587/ACTION-1529: (Joseph) Investigate the proper atk/at-spi mappings for aria-current.
19:56:19 <clown> agenda+ ISSUE-587:  (All) discuss use of events when aria-current changes.
19:56:27 <clown> agenda+ ISSUE-435/ACTION-1391:  (David) investigate ia2 mapping of role="text".
19:56:34 <clown> agenda+ ISSUE-433/ACTION-1532:  (Joanie) investigate atk/at-spi mapping of role="text".
19:56:40 <clown> agenda+ ISSUE-435/ACTION-1530:  (Cynthia) investigate ia2 mapping of role="text"
19:56:47 <clown> agenda+ ISSUE-568:  (All) need actions for mappings or aria-modal for all AAPIs.
19:56:55 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-1104: (Cynthia) Define the UIA mapping for aria-describedby when the element does not exist in the accessibility tree such as when css: display:none applies.
19:57:03 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-1445/ISSUE-661: (Cynthia) Investigate ideal mapping for role presentation in tables and lists.
19:57:10 <clown> agenda+ Continue with ACTIONs/ISSUEs for core-aam 1.1:  https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/products/23
19:57:15 <clown> agenda+ be done.
19:57:49 <Zakim> WAI_PFWG(AAPI)3:00PM has now started
19:57:56 <Zakim> +[GVoice]
19:58:13 <clown> zakim, GVoice is Joseph_Scheuhammer
19:58:13 <Zakim> +Joseph_Scheuhammer; got it
19:58:21 <clown> zakim, I am Joseph_Scheuhammer
19:58:21 <Zakim> ok, clown, I now associate you with Joseph_Scheuhammer
19:58:24 <clown> zakim, who's here?
19:58:24 <Zakim> On the phone I see Joseph_Scheuhammer
19:58:26 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, davidb, clown, MichaelC, joanie, trackbot
19:59:10 <Zakim> + +1.416.848.aaaa
19:59:29 <davidb> Zakim, 1.416.848.aaaa is David_Bolter
19:59:29 <Zakim> sorry, davidb, I do not recognize a party named '1.416.848.aaaa'
19:59:39 <davidb> Zakim, aaaa is David_Bolter
19:59:39 <Zakim> +David_Bolter; got it
20:00:04 <Zakim> +Joanmarie_Diggs
20:00:18 <joanie> Zakim, I am Joanmarie_Diggs
20:00:18 <Zakim> ok, joanie, I now associate you with Joanmarie_Diggs
20:00:47 <dalek> exterminate
20:01:19 <Zakim> +Bryan_Garaventa
20:02:51 <joanie> Regrets+ Rich_Schwerdtfeger
20:02:55 <davidb> davidb has joined #aapi
20:03:03 <joanie> scribenick: joanie
20:03:23 <joanie> Zakim, take up item 1
20:03:23 <Zakim> agendum 1. "ISSUE-587/ACTION-1528: (David) Investigate the proper ia2 mappings for aria-current." taken up [from clown]
20:03:28 <clown> action-1528?
20:03:28 <trackbot> action-1528 -- David Bolter to Bolter to investigate the proper ia2 mappings for aria-current -- due 2014-11-18 -- OPEN
20:03:28 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1528
20:03:37 <joanie> JS: There's a new aria-current in the spec.
20:04:10 <joanie> JS: Briefly, if you're in a navigational structure like a TOC off to the side, your current location is your place in the TOC.
20:04:22 <joanie> JS: You could also use it in a wizard or other step-by-step process.
20:04:28 <joanie> DB: Do we have a status role for that?
20:04:36 <joanie> JS: We're not changing the role.
20:04:49 <joanie> DB: I'm wondering if this could be done in another way.
20:05:07 <joanie> JS: The GNOME people are going to go with ATK_STATIC_ACTIVE
20:06:28 <davidb> q+ who wants aria-current and how does it help the user experience?
20:06:36 <joanie> https://bug740044.bugzilla-attachments.gnome.org/attachment.cgi?id=290571
20:07:04 <clown> scribenick: clown
20:07:17 <clown> JD:  reads the docs on ATK_STATE_ACTIVE
20:08:38 <clown> Indicates a window is currently the active window, or an object is the active subelement within a container or table. ATK_STATE_ACTIVE should not be used for objects which have ATK_STATE_FOCUSABLE or ATK_STATE_SELECTABLE: Those objects should use ATK_STATE_FOCUSED and ATK_STATE_SELECTED respectively. ATK_STATE_ACTIVE is a means to indicate that an object which is not focusable and not selectable is the currently-active item within its parent container.
20:09:53 <clown> DB: regarding this change, you could still have a clickable thing be an ACTIVE thing?
20:09:55 <clown> JD: Sure.
20:10:18 <clown> DB:  When you say, "objects should use ATK_STATE_FOCUSED and ATK_STATE_SELECTED respectively".  Is that and/or or both?
20:10:43 <clown> JD:  It can be either.  Something can be unselected in a mult-select list box, but still focussed.
20:11:36 <clown> DB: does ATK have a multi-selected state?
20:11:45 <clown> JD:  multi-selecatable.
20:12:17 <clown> JD:  The new definition is to anticipate a complaint that isn't aria-current just focused?
20:12:29 <clown> DB:  who want aria-current, and what's it for?
20:12:40 <clown> JD:  Here's my use case.
20:12:55 <clown> JD: <describes ordering online>
20:13:22 <clown> JD:  <describles a wizard step-by-step process>
20:14:24 <clown> BG:  Let me clarify.  The primary reason for aria-current is there are situations on the web where an element is marked as current in a collection.
20:14:41 <clown> BG:  It could be a list of items, or a group of images, or a list of dates.
20:14:54 <clown> BG:  Also pagination links, where one is current.
20:15:11 <clown> BG:  There is not textual way to indicate which one is current.
20:15:27 <clown> BG:  Sighted users can see some sort of highlighting.
20:16:30 <joanie> scribenick: joanie
20:16:49 <joanie> JS: I'm looking for the aria-current spec text.
20:17:48 <joanie> DB: I'm going through the process of, whenever you see a proposed aria attribute:
20:17:55 <clown> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2014Nov/0039.html
20:17:59 <joanie> 1) Is it really needed?
20:18:12 <joanie> DB: 2) Is it as powerful as it can get?
20:18:27 <joanie> s/1) Is it really needed?/DB: 1) Is it really needed?/
20:18:44 <joanie> DB: I think we have met 1.
20:19:02 <joanie> DB: [Describes example in which a live region wouldn't work]
20:19:19 <joanie> JS: aria-current has nothing to do with focus
20:19:32 <joanie> JS: Go back to Joanie's shopping cart example.
20:19:37 <joanie> JS: You're not focused on the step.
20:19:40 <joanie> DB: I totally get that.
20:20:02 <joanie> DB: The use case I'm trying to imagine is a web page in which you might have one or more aria-currents on a page.
20:20:19 <joanie> DB: I'm thinking of a dynamic page in which one or more aria-current's change.
20:20:50 <joanie> DB: So my example -- bad example -- is the colors of a legend changing depening on what country you selected.
20:21:07 <joanie> JS: The one (example) that was originally proposed was for aria-selected.
20:21:15 <joanie> JS: But that was rejected as being different.
20:21:29 <joanie> DB: A screen reader has to know if aria-current changes for some reason.
20:21:36 <joanie> BG: I don't think that's needed necessarily.
20:22:02 <joanie> BG: The author can surround nested regions with labels if needed.
20:22:12 <joanie> BG: It's obvious from the context that the element refers to that region.
20:22:28 <joanie> BG: So I don't think it's necessary to expose anything other than that the element is current.
20:23:21 <joanie> DB: Is there a situation in which some screen reader notices this is aria-current. Does it need to know the relationship between it and what makes it current?
20:23:41 <joanie> BG: I don't think so. Dominic from Google mentioned it in the context in of shadow DOM.
20:23:58 <joanie> JS: I mentioned aria-currentfor if you have multiple aria-currents on the page
20:24:07 <joanie> JS: But Matt, James, and others said it wasn't needed.
20:24:18 <joanie> DB: Is it expected that you'll only have one?
20:24:30 <joanie> JS: No, as far as I know that is not necessarily expected.
20:24:46 <joanie> BG: [Agrees] but I don't think that's a problem.
20:24:58 <joanie> JS: [Describes example of page with multiple portlets]
20:25:06 <joanie> BG: I think it depends on context.
20:25:14 <joanie> JS: I remember others saying that too.
20:25:52 <joanie> DB: I'm just wondering about getting people to use it.
20:25:58 <joanie> DB: It has to be clear how to use it.
20:26:00 <joanie> JS: True.
20:26:32 <joanie> JS: aria-currentfor got dropped; aria-current is all we need.
20:27:06 <joanie> BG: Cynthia said she was going to try to put it in UIA in January, I think
20:28:30 <joanie> JS: Is there something similar to STATE_ACTIVE in IA2?
20:28:38 <joanie> JS: ATK and IA2 are pretty similar.
20:28:52 <joanie> DB: Does ATK have STATE_ARMED? Or was that Java?
20:28:57 <joanie> JS: Java
20:29:07 <joanie> JD: Actually ATK too, but it's stupid and I want it deprecated.
20:29:30 <joanie> JS: The "it" there is ambiguous.
20:29:42 <joanie> JD: [Makes no comment]
20:30:09 <joanie> DB: So there's a STATE_ACTIVE, but it's about the active window.
20:30:28 <clown> http://accessibility.linuxfoundation.org/a11yspecs/ia2/docs/html/_accessible_states_8idl.html#aafecbfb195aaf7050dc8f75a7833bd5fabf466265c1f5b45dd53c86deb28220bc
20:30:37 <clown> scribenick:  clown
20:30:50 <clown> JD:  Years ago, ACTIVE was just for windows.
20:31:04 <clown> JD:  But then, it was modified to include "sub-elements">
20:31:31 <clown> JD:  We fixed the docs for ATK to clarify it.
20:31:41 <clown> JD:  Couldn't we do the same for IA2?
20:32:01 <clown> s/IA2/IA2 docs/
20:32:27 <clown> JD: It would mean little change to the IA2 implementation.
20:33:47 <clown> Note:  IA2 documentations for STATE_ACTIVE is:  "Indicates a window is currently the active window, or is an active subelement within a container or table."
20:35:32 <joanie> scribnick: joanie
20:35:41 <joanie> JS: We've been discussing this for 1/2 an hour now.
20:36:05 <joanie> JS: David should ask Alex Surkov about using STATE_ACTIVE in IA2 for this.
20:36:09 <joanie> DB: Agreed.
20:36:22 <joanie> DB: I think I'll assign the action to him.
20:37:23 <joanie> JS: The current due date is today. Next tuesday?
20:37:29 <joanie> DB: Sure.
20:38:33 <joanie> Topic: Do we meet next week?
20:38:45 <joanie> JS: In the States it's Thanksgiving Holiday week.
20:38:51 <joanie> JS: I'll be here. David will be here.
20:38:56 <joanie> JD: I will be here.
20:39:06 <joanie> BG: I'll be around on Tuesday.
20:39:41 <joanie> RESOLUTION: We'll have a meeting next week as usual.
20:39:48 <joanie> DB: When do we break for holidays?
20:40:17 <joanie> JS: The 16th might be iffy for me, though I'm not sure. I'll definitely be out on the 23rd and 30th.
20:40:38 <joanie> JS: The above refer to December.
20:40:59 <joanie> Zakim, next item
20:40:59 <Zakim> agendum 2. "ISSUE-587/ACTION-1527: (Cynthia) Investigate the proper uia mappings for aria-current." taken up [from clown]
20:41:06 <joanie> JS: Cynthia is not here
20:41:11 <joanie> Zakim, close item 2
20:41:11 <Zakim> agendum 2, ISSUE-587/ACTION-1527: (Cynthia) Investigate the proper uia mappings for aria-current., closed
20:41:13 <Zakim> I see 10 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
20:41:13 <Zakim> 3. ISSUE-587/ACTION-1529: (Joseph) Investigate the proper atk/at-spi mappings for aria-current. [from clown]
20:41:25 <clown> action-1529?
20:41:25 <trackbot> action-1529 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to Investigate the proper atk/at-spi mappings for aria-current -- due 2014-11-18 -- OPEN
20:41:25 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1529
20:41:30 <joanie> JS: This is mine because it was originally Joanie's and she's done the work.
20:41:39 <joanie> JS: Given her notes, I'm ready to add the mappings.
20:42:19 <joanie> JS: I guess I need to wait until the other platforms.
20:42:34 <davidb> JD: what about Mac?
20:43:28 <clown> action: James Craig to investigate the AXAPI mappings for aria-current.
20:43:29 <trackbot> 'James' is an ambiguous username. Please try a different identifier, such as family name or username (e.g., jcraig, jhawkins2, jnurthen).
20:43:40 <clown> action: jcraig to investigate the AXAPI mappings for aria-current.
20:43:40 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1535 - Investigate the axapi mappings for aria-current. [on James Craig - due 2014-11-25].
20:43:41 <joanie> JS: [Creates new action for AX API mappings]
20:43:49 <clown> action-1535?
20:43:49 <trackbot> action-1535 -- James Craig to Investigate the axapi mappings for aria-current. -- due 2014-11-25 -- OPEN
20:43:49 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1535
20:44:37 <joanie> Zakim, next item
20:44:37 <Zakim> agendum 3. "ISSUE-587/ACTION-1529: (Joseph) Investigate the proper atk/at-spi mappings for aria-current." taken up [from clown]
20:45:00 <joanie> Zakim, close item 3
20:45:00 <Zakim> agendum 3, ISSUE-587/ACTION-1529: (Joseph) Investigate the proper atk/at-spi mappings for aria-current., closed
20:45:02 <Zakim> I see 9 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
20:45:02 <Zakim> 4. ISSUE-587:  (All) discuss use of events when aria-current changes. [from clown]
20:45:03 <joanie> Zakim, next item
20:45:04 <Zakim> agendum 4. "ISSUE-587:  (All) discuss use of events when aria-current changes." taken up [from clown]
20:45:24 <joanie> JS: When Joanie passed back action-1529, I wondere if aria-current should spawn an event.
20:45:35 <joanie> JS: In which case we need to add this to the event mapping table.
20:45:42 <joanie> JS: I brought this up yesterday at the meeting.
20:45:55 <joanie> JS: James Craig thought we should make it a "MAY"
20:46:13 <clown> scribenick: clown
20:46:25 <clown> JS:  ATK is going to just make such an event.
20:46:29 <clown> JD:  That's not quite right.
20:46:37 <joanie> action-1529
20:46:37 <trackbot> action-1529 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to Investigate the proper atk/at-spi mappings for aria-current -- due 2014-11-18 -- OPEN
20:46:37 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1529
20:47:22 <clown> JD: Well, there's the events table (i.e. ARIA), and there's what is expected when the state of an accessible object changes in <insert any ATK implementation here, including desktop applications and toolkits>.
20:47:41 <clown> JD: With respect to the latter, the expectation has always been that as a general rule, when the state changes, a state-change notification is expected.
20:47:54 <clown> JD:  Otherwise, how is an AT on the platform to know?
20:48:32 <clown> JD:  It says in the ATK documentation that implementors are expected to provide notiifcations of state changes.
20:50:05 <clown> JD:  ATK doesn't magically do the event.  It is still expected that the implementor will do the event.
20:50:25 <joanie> scribenick: joanie
20:50:55 <joanie> JS: When I said "ATK is going to do this anyway" I really meant "A proper ATK implementation is going to do this anyway."
20:51:16 <joanie> JS: James Craig wants it to be a MAY because we currently have no consensus that it's needed or wanted by any AT.
20:51:31 <joanie> JS: Cynthia wanted it to be a SHOULD because she wanted it to be stronger.
20:52:21 <joanie> JS: I will put it in as a MAY for AX API and a MUST for ATK. But that means we have different normative requirements for platforms.
20:52:31 <joanie> JS: I'm not sure what to do for UIA.
20:52:36 <joanie> JS: Cynthia wants a SHOULD.
20:52:58 <joanie> JS: James Craig went on to say that if this is useful and we all agree, we can then change it to a MUST.
20:53:04 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
20:53:09 <joanie> JS: In other words he's being cautious.
20:53:23 <cyns> cyns has joined #aapi
20:53:59 <Zakim> -David_Bolter
20:54:09 <joanie> Zakim, [Microsoft] is Cynthia_Shelly
20:54:09 <Zakim> +Cynthia_Shelly; got it
20:54:18 <joanie> Zakim, take up item 2
20:54:18 <Zakim> agendum 2. "ISSUE-587/ACTION-1527: (Cynthia) Investigate the proper uia mappings for aria-current." taken up [from clown]
20:54:28 <joanie> JS: We've been talking about mappings for aria-current.
20:54:34 <joanie> JS: We pretty much have ATK finished.
20:54:43 <clown> action-1527
20:54:44 <trackbot> action-1527 -- Cynthia Shelly to Investigate the proper uia mappings for aria-current -- due 2015-01-31 -- OPEN
20:54:44 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1527
20:54:49 <joanie> JS: David is going to follow up with Surkov on IA2.
20:54:56 <joanie> JS: What should we use for UIA?
20:55:20 <joanie> CS: Selection -- it would become a selected item.
20:55:36 <joanie> CS: Which means that it needs to have -- there's a container that's required.
20:55:41 <joanie> CS: I put notes in the bug.
20:55:48 <joanie> CS: The closest thing we have is selected.
20:55:56 <joanie> CS: But that means we need to have a container.
20:56:08 <joanie> CS: I think this is related to what Joanie was talking about the other day on the call.
20:56:16 <joanie> CS: About traversing the tree, etc.
20:56:44 <joanie> CS: I could ask for a new UIA API, but I'd need additional justification for why this isn't selection.
20:57:32 <joanie> BG: It is possible to have something with a current and a selected at the same time. And they wouldn't be the same thing.
20:57:36 <joanie> CS: What's the difference?
20:58:00 <joanie> BS: If you have a tree, and the current item in the tree is a book and there is a current page.
20:58:13 <joanie> CS: That sounds like the difference between focus and selection
20:58:22 <joanie> s/BS/BG/
20:58:55 <joanie> BG: When you're arrowing through it, you can have something selected and not be current at the same time.
20:59:15 <joanie> BG: But one could be both selected and current.
20:59:26 <joanie> BG: [Gives an example with JAWS]
20:59:44 <joanie> CS: How does that work for tabs?
20:59:56 <joanie> CS: Or multiple selections in a listbox?
21:00:31 <joanie> BG: With tabs you have aria-expanded.
21:00:45 <joanie> JS: You can have multiple tabs expanded, but only one is selected.
21:01:00 <joanie> CS: I was talking about browser tabs
21:01:57 <joanie> BG: [example with remote callback]
21:02:18 <joanie> CS: We already have focus and selection.
21:02:37 <joanie> CS: The difference between focus and selection seems to be the difference between selection and current.
21:02:49 <joanie> BG: This also applies to static.
21:03:40 <joanie> BG: People didn't want aria-selected because it's going to cause confusion with interactive widgets.
21:03:50 <joanie> BG: People will start putting it on the wrong widgets.
21:03:53 <joanie> CS: Why is that?
21:04:17 <joanie> BG: If you can put aria-selected on everything, people are going to start putting it on everything
21:04:28 <joanie> CS: I think the best mapping in UIA is going to be selected.
21:04:41 <joanie> CS: I think that's what we do with similar native widgets in Windows.
21:05:27 <joanie> BG: [Asks about experience in Windows on calendar]
21:05:33 <joanie> CS: [Describes it]
21:05:51 <joanie> BG: So basically it's the distinction between selected and focused is not always the same.
21:06:01 <joanie> CS: Correct. Selection and focus are not always the same.
21:06:11 <joanie> BG: In the spec, there are many cases where they are the same.
21:06:20 <joanie> CS: And in the mapping you'll see that they are all different
21:06:28 <joanie> CS: Sometimes they are the same, but not always.
21:06:37 <joanie> JS: Can I break in to say the meeting is over?
21:07:07 <joanie> BG: Can you post this (the Windows mapping) to the list?
21:07:14 <joanie> CS: I can post that to the list.
21:07:25 <joanie> CS: I think I posted something last week, but I can do it again.
21:07:41 <joanie> CS: I think we've gotten as far as we can without further input.
21:08:27 <joanie> action-1530
21:08:27 <trackbot> action-1530 -- Cynthia Shelly to Investigate uia mapping of role="text" -- due 2014-11-18 -- OPEN
21:08:27 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1530
21:08:50 <Zakim> -Joanmarie_Diggs
21:08:51 <Zakim> -Bryan_Garaventa
21:08:52 <Zakim> -Cynthia_Shelly
21:08:54 <Zakim> -Joseph_Scheuhammer
21:08:55 <Zakim> WAI_PFWG(AAPI)3:00PM has ended
21:08:55 <Zakim> Attendees were Joseph_Scheuhammer, +1.416.848.aaaa, David_Bolter, Joanmarie_Diggs, Bryan_Garaventa, Cynthia_Shelly
21:09:09 <joanie> Zakim, part
21:09:09 <Zakim> Zakim has left #aapi
21:09:32 <joanie> RRSAgent, make minutes
21:09:32 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/11/18-aapi-minutes.html joanie
21:10:11 <joanie> RRSAgent, stop
21:17:32 <joanie> s/scribnick/scribenick/
21:17:38 <joanie> RRSAgent, make minutes
21:17:38 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/11/18-aapi-minutes.html joanie
21:18:20 <joanie> RRSAgent, stop