16:01:25 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #html-a11y
16:01:25 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/11/13-html-a11y-irc
16:01:33 <LJWatson> zakim, this is 2119
16:01:33 <Zakim> LJWatson, this was already WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)10:00AM
16:01:34 <Zakim> ok, LJWatson; that matches WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)10:00AM
16:01:45 <LJWatson> zakim, agenda?
16:01:45 <Zakim> I see 4 items remaining on the agenda:
16:01:46 <Zakim> 8. TF Work Items (HTML.Next) [from janina]
16:01:46 <Zakim> 9. Other Business [from janina]
16:01:46 <Zakim> 10. Identify Chair and Scribe for the next TF teleconference http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/index.php?title=Scribe_List [from janina]
16:01:46 <Zakim> 11. be done [from janina]
16:01:48 <Zakim> +Judy
16:01:52 <Zakim> +??P14
16:01:53 <chaals> chaals has joined #html-a11y
16:01:57 <LJWatson> zakim, clear agenda
16:01:57 <Zakim> agenda cleared
16:01:59 <janina> akim, ??P14 is me
16:02:24 <chaals> zakim, ??p14 is janina
16:02:24 <Zakim> +janina; got it
16:02:38 <Zakim> +ShaneM
16:02:42 <LJWatson> agenda+ longdesc
16:02:49 <Zakim> +Joanmarie_Diggs
16:02:50 <LJWatson> agenda+ canvas
16:03:00 <LJWatson> agenda+ HTML.next
16:03:01 <Judy> Judy has joined #html-a11y
16:03:01 <joanie> Zakim, I am Joanmarie_Diggs
16:03:02 <Zakim> ok, joanie, I now associate you with Joanmarie_Diggs
16:03:10 <Zakim> +MarkS
16:03:17 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
16:03:24 <Judy> zakim, who's on the phone?
16:03:24 <Zakim> On the phone I see LJWatson, Judy, janina, ShaneM, Joanmarie_Diggs, MarkS, [IPcaller]
16:03:26 <chaals> zakim, [ip is me
16:03:27 <Zakim> +chaals; got it
16:04:26 <chaals> agenda+ Paris meeting?
16:04:27 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
16:04:38 <chaals> agenda+ anything else?
16:04:44 <paulc> zakim, [Microsoft] is me
16:04:44 <Zakim> +paulc; got it
16:04:56 <LJWatson> scribe: Léonie Watson
16:04:58 <chaals> zakim, agenda?
16:04:58 <Zakim> I see 5 items remaining on the agenda:
16:05:00 <Zakim> 1. longdesc [from LJWatson]
16:05:00 <Zakim> 2. canvas [from LJWatson]
16:05:00 <Zakim> 3. HTML.next [from LJWatson]
16:05:00 <Zakim> 4. Paris meeting? [from chaals]
16:05:00 <Zakim> 5. anything else? [from chaals]
16:05:01 <Zakim> +JF
16:05:04 <chaals> zakim, take up item 1
16:05:04 <Zakim> agendum 1. "longdesc" taken up [from LJWatson]
16:05:21 <LJWatson> zakim, take up item 1
16:05:21 <Zakim> agendum 1. "longdesc" taken up [from LJWatson]
16:05:30 <JF> JF has joined #html-a11y
16:05:49 <LJWatson> CMN: We're essentially done.
16:06:34 <LJWatson> PC: Nothing the TF needs to do. Transition request went to the chairs, PLH is scheduling a meeting with the Director.
16:07:40 <LJWatson> JB: There are schedule complications. It may not be possible to do everything before Thanksgiving.
16:07:59 <LJWatson> rrsagent, make minutes
16:07:59 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/11/13-html-a11y-minutes.html LJWatson
16:08:53 <LJWatson> JS: Expect more use cases for longdesc to come from the Media Publishing group.
16:09:02 <LJWatson> rrsagent, set logs world-visible
16:10:02 <LJWatson> zakim, next item
16:10:02 <Zakim> agendum 2. "canvas" taken up [from LJWatson]
16:10:36 <LJWatson> CMN: We're going through the process, but don't think there is anything else we need to do?
16:10:37 <MarkS>  Bug 27263 - addHitRegion should inform the user of the new location for the fallback element based on the associated hit region -> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=27263
16:10:43 <LJWatson> MS: Filed a couple of bugs.
16:10:47 <MarkS>  Bug 27264 - Scrolling behaviour is too prescriptive. Should follow behaviour of other focusable elements. -> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=27264
16:11:35 <chaals> s/Media Publishing group/Digital Publishing Group/
16:11:44 <LJWatson> s/Media Publishing/Digital Publishing/
16:12:03 <LJWatson> MS: The TF is meeting tomorrow to discuss.
16:12:10 <paulc> q+
16:12:19 <chaals> ack pa
16:12:58 <LJWatson> PC: If the TF meeting tomorrow? Sam is in transit, and didn't think there needed to be a meeting until the bugs have been dealt with.
16:13:08 <chaals> q+
16:13:13 <LJWatson> MS: Ok, was working on the assumption that we didn't meet last week so we would meet this week.
16:13:41 <chaals> q-
16:14:33 <LJWatson> zakim, next item
16:14:33 <Zakim> agendum 3. "HTML.next" taken up [from LJWatson]
16:14:42 <LJWatson> rrsagent, make minutes
16:14:42 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/11/13-html-a11y-minutes.html LJWatson
16:14:46 <LJWatson> zakim, take up item 4
16:14:46 <Zakim> agendum 4. "Paris meeting?" taken up [from chaals]
16:15:16 <LJWatson> CMN: Discussion of an HTML/Web apps meeting in the Spring. Possibly in Paris, in May.
16:15:49 <Judy> q+
16:15:54 <LJWatson> CMN: If people are likely to attend, look out for a request or survey. Be good for TF people to attend WG meetings.
16:16:06 <chaals> ack ju
16:16:26 <LJWatson> JB: Understand this will be a significant meeting to shape the future of HTML?
16:16:46 <chaals> q+
16:17:33 <Judy> s/HTML/HTML and Web Applications Foundation/
16:17:37 <LJWatson> PC: We'll either have decided next steps based on Santa Clara discussions, or we'll decide it at the meeting. I'm optimistic we'll decide before then, so we can do real work at the F2F.
16:17:50 <LJWatson> rrsagent, make minutes
16:17:50 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/11/13-html-a11y-minutes.html LJWatson
16:19:06 <Zakim> +Adrian_Roselli
16:19:22 <LJWatson> JB: Would be good to have accessibility presence.
16:19:36 <LJWatson> PC: Space shouldn't be a constraint, the proposed host is a university.
16:19:55 <aardrian> aardrian has joined #html-a11y
16:20:59 <chaals> q?
16:21:20 <LJWatson> PC: This item is on the WG agenda.
16:21:33 <chaals> ack me
16:21:57 <LJWatson> CMN: Strongly support Paul's optimism that it'll be a technical meeting to get work done.
16:22:06 <LJWatson> +1
16:22:37 <LJWatson> JB: Didn't mean to suggest the entire focus of the meeting would be process based.
16:22:53 <LJWatson> rrsagent, make minutes
16:22:53 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/11/13-html-a11y-minutes.html LJWatson
16:23:24 <LJWatson> SM: Did PF discuss a European F2F next year?
16:23:34 <LJWatson> JS: Don't recall, although we are overdue a meeting.
16:24:44 <LJWatson> zakim, take up item 3
16:24:44 <Zakim> agendum 3. "HTML.next" taken up [from LJWatson]
16:24:49 <JF> Q+
16:25:18 <JF> ack JF
16:25:25 <chaals> -> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Wishlist_for_HTML5.1#Accesskey accesskey in HTML next
16:25:36 <LJWatson> rrsagent, make minutes
16:25:36 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/11/13-html-a11y-minutes.html LJWatson
16:25:39 <Judy> s/Didn't mean to suggest the entire focus of the meeting/Didn't suggest that the meeting/
16:25:48 <LJWatson> JF: Would like to include transcript in HTML.next discussions.
16:26:18 <LJWatson> CMN: Accesskey is one thing I hope we'll look at for HTML.next. Few bugs have been listed.
16:26:54 <chaals> -> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23284 bug - accesskey should be translateable
16:27:06 <LJWatson> CMN: Accesskey should be translatable.
16:27:16 <janina_> janina_ has joined #html-a11y
16:27:54 <LJWatson> CMN: Don't think we need to do anything with this bug. When you translate a page you can re-create the accesskeys.
16:28:25 <LJWatson> CMN: Accesskey allows a list of characters, so you could provide values from Latin, Russian, Greek alphabets.
16:29:16 <LJWatson> CMN: Browsers should be able to change accesskeys. Authors tend to get it wrong.
16:29:34 <LJWatson> CMN: Suggest we close this as partly "not a problem" and partly won't fix.
16:29:42 <LJWatson> JS: Sounds good to me.
16:30:03 <LJWatson> RESOLUTION: Close bug 23284
16:30:57 <chaals> -> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23614 AcceskeyLabel can expose user information
16:31:09 <LJWatson> CMN: Accesskey label can expose user information.
16:32:08 <LJWatson> CMN: The accesskey attribute and accesskeylbale DOM attribute. Can supply a list of accesskeys, browser chooses the one to use. Idea is that you could higlhight a key, provide a hint to the user.
16:32:22 <LJWatson> CMN: Problem is that it's possible to ascertain which key the user chose.
16:32:54 <JF> Q+
16:32:58 <LJWatson> CMN: Unconvinced that key selection is going to reveal sensitive information. Only information might be the type of keyboard someone is using.
16:33:23 <LJWatson> AR: Bug mentions iframes too.
16:33:52 <LJWatson> AR: Agree there is little that would be exposed that couldn't be found through other methods.
16:34:03 <chaals> ack jf
16:34:19 <chaals> q+
16:34:25 <LJWatson> JF: If the form between browser and AT were detectable, that would reveal more information. That's speculation though.
16:34:30 <chaals> ack me
16:34:41 <LJWatson> s/the form/the fork/
16:34:55 <LJWatson> CMN: Unsure about the iframe part. We need to find out.
16:35:12 <LJWatson> CMN: With key assignment, there are many reasons why a particular key may not be available.
16:36:06 <LJWatson> CMN: Should we ask a privacy interest group about this?
16:36:23 <LJWatson> AR: We're speculating. Don't think we can answer this.
16:36:31 <LJWatson> rrsagent, make minutes
16:36:31 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/11/13-html-a11y-minutes.html LJWatson
16:36:38 <paulc> q+
16:36:45 <chaals> ack p
16:36:56 <LJWatson> JB: Could check with Wendy Seltzer?
16:36:59 <Judy> q+
16:37:29 <LJWatson> PC: One possibility is to go to the TAG?
16:37:34 <janina> q+
16:37:55 <chaals> ack ju
16:38:01 <chaals> q+
16:38:02 <LJWatson> PC: Think this is an area where we should be pragmatic about getting this kind of advice.
16:38:24 <LJWatson> JB: Have discussed this topic repeatedly with Wendy. From my perspective, it's worth a shot.
16:38:39 <JF> to clarify my concern: in the case of keyboard conflict between accesskey and Assisitive Tech, it introduces a fork (of sorts). Because of that, quessing that scripting could determine that as well, which introduces possibility of privacy/security concerns (??)
16:38:49 <LJWatson> JS: IndieUI has met with the Privacy group and had a good introduction to their typical concerns.
16:39:22 <LJWatson> JS: Think it would help to ask specific questions.
16:39:32 <Judy> q+
16:39:44 <LJWatson> JS: Don't think they're well setup to provide horizontal review.
16:40:02 <LJWatson> JB: Wendy is also trying to increase participation in the area.
16:40:06 <chaals> ack ja
16:40:14 <chaals> ack ju
16:40:18 <chaals> ack me
16:40:44 <LJWatson> CMN: Given timeline it's reasonable to ask for a review.
16:41:26 <LJWatson> ACTION: Chaals to ask security, privacy and TAG people to comment on bug 23614.
16:41:26 <trackbot> Created ACTION-287 - Ask security, privacy and tag people to comment on bug 23614. [on Charles McCathie Nevile - due 2014-11-20].
16:42:14 <LJWatson> CMN: Don't think the use case for accesskeylabel makes sense. It tells the user how to activate the thing that has the access key. That seems like the wrong approach to discovery.
16:42:52 <LJWatson> CMN: It encourages authors to do something they only do because browsers have bad implimentations.
16:43:14 <LJWatson> rrsagent, make minutes
16:43:14 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/11/13-html-a11y-minutes.html LJWatson
16:44:14 <chaals> -> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=13576 allow words
16:44:32 <LJWatson> CMN: Request to allow words instead of characters.
16:44:33 <chaals> -> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23615 and gestures
16:44:47 <LJWatson> CMN: To allow gestures instead of characters.
16:45:00 <LJWatson> CMN: Also possibility of adding accesskey with no suggested behaviour.
16:45:15 <JF> Q+
16:45:23 <LJWatson> CMN: No bug for the last point.
16:45:24 <chaals>  code example for last idea: <a href="foo" accesskey>foo</a>
16:47:03 <chaals> ack jf
16:47:35 <LJWatson> JF: Part of the problem is that accesskey requires a value. Trying to rework it might be a problem.
16:47:58 <LJWatson> JF: Maybe we need to think of a new attribute - perhaps @access
16:48:03 <chaals> q+
16:49:26 <LJWatson> CMN: We should figure out what we want to achieve. That this function needs a shortcut activation. Then ask if the accesskey attribute can be used, or do we need to throw it away.
16:49:28 <janina> q+
16:49:35 <JF> Q+
16:49:42 <LJWatson> CMN: If the outcome is another attribute that does the same thing, that's not a good use of our time.
16:50:09 <janina> q+ To ask "just activation? Or also author/user supplied landmark?"
16:50:17 <janina> q-
16:50:55 <LJWatson> CMN: We could extend accesskey to take multiple single characters separated by whitespace. We'd need to change the validator, and change the spec to allow any value because the UA will figure it out. The value of a suggestion is that only the author knows the purpose of the function.
16:52:25 <LJWatson> CMN: So the author could suggest "c" for "compose" in an email application, but the UA and/or the user might want to change that assignment.
16:52:37 <Judy> q?
16:52:41 <chaals> ack jf
16:52:44 <chaals> ack me
16:52:51 <janina> q+
16:53:21 <LJWatson> JF: Think we should be marking elements with something. Suggest accesskey is fundamentally broken. Instead of bandaging it, we should look for a fresh start.
16:53:52 <LJWatson> JF: New attribute with a numeric indicator as value access=1 access=2 etc. Gives us an array as a starting point for mapping.
16:53:53 <chaals> q+
16:54:17 <LJWatson> JF: That would be your common denominator for all UA.
16:54:18 <chaals> ack ja
16:54:46 <LJWatson> JS: Thinking we need more consideration about what this thing is there for. Early days accesskey was more in the nature of a landmark. Do we want to keep/drop that?
16:54:58 <ShaneM> q+ to talk about landmarks and activation
16:55:17 <chaals> q- later
16:55:22 <LJWatson> JS: If activation is the prime function, is there an IndieUI specification that could be created?
16:55:28 <LJWatson> rrsagent, make minutes
16:55:28 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/11/13-html-a11y-minutes.html LJWatson
16:55:35 <chaals> ack shan
16:55:35 <Zakim> ShaneM, you wanted to talk about landmarks and activation
16:56:22 <LJWatson> SM: John, your idea resonated with me. Agree with Janina that the original purpose of accesskey was to be a landmark.
16:56:50 <LJWatson> SM: We addressed this in the access element. Can declare a navigation and activation function.
16:57:16 <ShaneM> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2009/ED-xhtml-access-20090423/#E_access
16:57:19 <chaals> ack me
16:57:22 <paulc> I have to leave to prep for the HTML WG meeting.
16:57:28 <Zakim> -paulc
16:58:04 <LJWatson> CMN: To speak against numbering proposal. There was confusion in the purpose of accesskey originally (activate/navigate to).
16:59:34 <LJWatson> CMN: The good thing about the access element was the ability to distinguish between navigate to and activate. Beyond that having "1" "2" etc. instead of "Compose", "Mark as spam" etc. would be a step backwards.
17:00:40 <JF> Q+
17:00:52 <LJWatson> CMN: Would be nothing to stop the UA actually assigning those values, perhaps in source order. Think there is value in the author having the ability to make suggestions. It's a shortcut, if you have to lookup which shortcut you need, it gets too circuitous.
17:01:13 <JF> ack JF
17:01:13 <chaals> ack JF
17:01:36 <LJWatson> JF: We haven't talked about discoverability either. That's one for next week?
17:01:40 <LJWatson> CMN: Yes.
17:01:46 <LJWatson> rrsagent, make minutes
17:01:46 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/11/13-html-a11y-minutes.html LJWatson
17:01:50 <Zakim> -ShaneM
17:01:59 <Zakim> -LJWatson
17:02:01 <Zakim> -JF
17:02:02 <LJWatson> Chair: Chaals McCathie Nevile
17:02:04 <Zakim> -Adrian_Roselli
17:02:05 <Zakim> -Joanmarie_Diggs
17:02:11 <Zakim> -MarkS
17:02:30 <Zakim> -chaals
17:02:37 <Zakim> -Judy
17:05:14 <LJWatson> rrsagent, make minutes
17:05:14 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/11/13-html-a11y-minutes.html LJWatson
17:06:54 <Zakim> -janina
17:06:55 <Zakim> WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)10:00AM has ended
17:06:55 <Zakim> Attendees were LJWatson, Judy, janina, ShaneM, Joanmarie_Diggs, MarkS, [IPcaller], chaals, paulc, JF, Adrian_Roselli