15:53:38 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #forms
15:53:38 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/11/12-forms-irc
15:53:40 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
15:53:42 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be IA_XForms
15:53:42 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see IA_XForms()11:00AM scheduled to start in 7 minutes
15:53:43 <trackbot> Meeting: Forms Working Group Teleconference
15:53:43 <trackbot> Date: 12 November 2014
15:53:48 <Steven> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2014Nov/0003
15:53:55 <Steven> Steven has changed the topic to: Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2014Nov/0003
15:54:02 <Steven> Chair: Steven
15:55:06 <alain> alain has joined #forms
16:00:08 <Zakim> IA_XForms()11:00AM has now started
16:00:15 <Zakim> +??P7
16:00:20 <Steven> zakim, I am ?
16:00:21 <Zakim> +Steven; got it
16:00:35 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
16:00:35 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/11/12-forms-minutes.html Steven
16:02:09 <Zakim> +pfennell
16:02:22 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
16:02:22 <alain> Zakim, I am [IPcaller]
16:02:23 <Zakim> ok, alain, I now associate you with [IPcaller]
16:03:19 <ebruchez> can't seem to be able to join, Zakim keeps disconnecting me
16:05:34 <Zakim> +ebruchez
16:07:18 <Steven> Topic: Editorial meeting
16:07:18 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/2014/10/31-forms-minutes.html
16:08:18 <Steven> Steven: A successfull session. The issues I've split off as separate agenda items
16:08:29 <Steven> Topic: includenamespaceprefixes
16:08:29 <Steven> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2014Oct/0041.html
16:09:27 <Steven> Steven: Opinions?
16:10:01 <Steven> Erik: This is an attr on submission. XForms namespace is only relevant if the instance is inline
16:11:02 <Steven> ... the main problem is not that the namespace is kept around but that it is in scope
16:11:18 <Steven> ... there might even be 10 around still in scope, polluting the instance.
16:11:37 <Steven> ... XSLT has an exclude attr, which we added as an extension.
16:11:48 <Steven> ... both make sense in general.
16:11:58 <Steven> ... You want a clean data model
16:12:48 <Steven> Steven: What do think of Alain's suggestion of a default includenamespaceprefixes=""
16:12:54 <Steven> Erik: I wouldn;t want it.
16:13:30 <Steven> ... the real problem is the extra namespaces that you don't want around.
16:13:35 <Steven> s/;/'/
16:14:13 <Steven> Alain: Users can't understand why the extra namespaces are there. We shouldn't distinguiosh whether instances are inline or not
16:18:29 <Zakim> -Steven
16:19:15 <Zakim> +??P7
16:19:21 <Steven> zakim, I am ?
16:19:21 <Zakim> +Steven; got it
16:19:30 <Zakim> -Steven
16:19:37 <Steven> can someone else scribe?
16:19:40 <Steven> My phone has died.
16:19:48 <Steven> I'll rejoin
16:21:46 <Zakim> +??P7
16:21:51 <Steven> zakim, I am ?
16:21:51 <Zakim> +Steven; got it
16:24:25 <Steven> Steven: "If absent, all namespace nodes present in the instance data are considered for serializatio"
16:24:48 <Steven> https://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/wiki/XForms_2.0#The_submission_Element_2
16:25:04 <Steven> Erik: This is the XPath data model.
16:25:17 <Steven> s/tio/tion/
16:25:43 <Steven> .... there are namespaces in scope
16:26:18 <Steven> Stevenn: In scope yes, but are they actually in the instance?
16:26:24 <Steven> s/nn/n/
16:26:45 <Steven> Erik: You can tackle it in two ways.
16:27:02 <Steven> ... filter out the non-useful ones, or exclude them altogether.
16:28:33 <Steven> ... If I have an external instance, which specifies namespaces, even if they are not used, when I serialise out, if we change submission then I will lose those
16:30:04 <alain> Sorry, I have to leave now...
16:30:16 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
16:30:23 <Steven> Philip: Is "present" the same as "in scope"?
16:30:33 <Steven> Steven: That's my question
16:31:20 <Steven> https://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/wiki/XForms_2.0#The_xforms-submit_Event
16:32:42 <Steven> Steven: Look at the last example before that link. The two namespace nodes that have been serialised are not "in the instance data" by my reading, so I disagree with the example.
16:33:40 <ebruchez> 3.2.2 The instance Element
16:34:15 <ebruchez> "If the initial instance data is given by inline content, then instance data is obtained by first creating a detached copy of the inline content (including namespaces inherited from the enveloping ancestors)"
16:35:20 <Steven> Steven: So the important words are "instance data" (not just "instance")
16:37:16 <Steven> ... so I agree that the namespace nodes are really there, and I agree with Alain that this is not very user friendly.
16:38:17 <Steven> Erik: It is cleaner to say that the instance data is clean from the beginning, rather than having to clean it up later.
16:40:23 <Steven> ... and we should be able to roundtrip external instances
16:40:42 <Steven> Steven: Absolutely agree. The problem is with all the extras that we get from the host language.
16:41:41 <Steven> Erik: It comes down to an incompatible change somewhere.
16:41:47 <Steven> .... maybe 3.2 is the best place
16:41:54 <Steven> ... we can look at XSLT to see what
16:42:38 <Steven> Steven: Within W3C it is understood that a number change (2.0) means expect incompatible changes
16:42:50 <Steven> Erik: I think there are few ccases where this would really make a difference.
16:42:54 <Steven> s/cc/c/
16:43:55 <Steven> Erik: I don't have a probelm with making the change on the instance element level.
16:44:02 <Steven> s/belm/blem/
16:44:21 <Steven> Erik: I would have a problem with changing it at the submission level.
16:44:53 <Steven> action: Erik to investigate dealing with excess namespace nodes in section 3.2 the instance element
16:44:53 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1986 - Investigate dealing with excess namespace nodes in section 3.2 the instance element [on Erik Bruchez - due 2014-11-19].
16:45:31 <Steven> Topic: header/@name and @value
16:45:31 <Steven> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2014Oct/0045.html
16:45:31 <Steven> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2014Nov/0000.html
16:45:47 <Steven> Steven: I added @name and @value to the header element
16:46:28 <Steven> ... you suggested that no header should be produced if there is no name
16:46:32 <Steven> ... seems good
16:46:57 <Steven> ... you also suggested that we should clarify the evaluation context.
16:47:01 <Steven> ... I agree
16:47:27 <Steven> ACTION: Steven to update header@name @value to include Erik's comments
16:47:27 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1987 - Update header@name @value to include erik's comments [on Steven Pemberton - due 2014-11-19].
16:48:01 <Steven> Topic: xf:email
16:48:01 <Steven> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2014Nov/0002.html
16:48:08 <Steven> Steven: What to do about email.
16:49:04 <Steven> ... we don't want to exclude any formats that may still be in use.
16:49:24 <Steven> Erik: There seems to be a disparity with reality
16:49:50 <Steven> ... in our implementation we stopped using regexes
16:50:23 <Steven> ... there is code out there that validates email addresses.
16:50:41 <Steven> ... we actually use code to validate, not a datatype
16:51:20 <Steven> Steven: Are you saying that you have to use code, and that regexps are not enough?
16:51:35 <Steven> Erik: We found it easier to use someone else's code.
16:52:38 <ebruchez> https://github.com/apache/commons-validator/blob/trunk/src/main/java/org/apache/commons/validator/EmailValidator.java
16:53:47 <Steven> Steven: So we have to reverse engineer this?
16:53:54 <Steven> Erik: Not sure.
16:55:34 <ebruchez> steven@com
16:56:51 <Steven> Steven: XForms should not exclude correct email addresses. I don't know if steven@com is right or not; we should exclude it if it is wrong, and allow it if it is OK.
16:57:35 <ebruchez> the other case is john@example.org/
16:57:41 <ebruchez> (ending with a "/")
16:58:04 <Steven> Steven: This needs more research. Either our regexp is wrong, and then it should be excluded.
16:58:56 <Steven> ACTION: Steven to contact WAI about correct international email addresses
16:58:56 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1988 - Contact wai about correct international email addresses [on Steven Pemberton - due 2014-11-19].
16:59:41 <Zakim> -pfennell
16:59:41 <Steven> [ADJOURN]
16:59:43 <Zakim> -ebruchez
16:59:45 <Zakim> -Steven
16:59:47 <Zakim> IA_XForms()11:00AM has ended
16:59:47 <Zakim> Attendees were Steven, pfennell, [IPcaller], ebruchez
16:59:55 <Steven> Present+Alain
16:59:58 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
16:59:58 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/11/12-forms-minutes.html Steven
17:45:17 <ebruchez> ebruchez has joined #forms