00:02:14 caseorganic has joined #social 00:08:19 jasnell has joined #social 00:12:56 Arnaud has joined #social 00:17:13 jasnell has joined #social 00:29:02 bblfish has joined #social 00:36:15 caseorganic has joined #social 01:03:21 cmhobbs has joined #social 01:04:54 bblfish has joined #social 01:05:19 tilgovi has joined #social 01:14:07 jasnell has joined #social 02:14:23 bblfish has joined #social 03:17:37 bblfish has joined #social 03:22:21 jasnell has joined #social 03:58:25 Arnaud has joined #social 04:21:00 bblfish has joined #social 05:08:42 jasnell has joined #social 05:25:19 bblfish has joined #social 06:25:13 bblfish has joined #social 06:53:44 jaywink has joined #social 07:22:26 bblfish has joined #social 08:35:15 pfefferle has joined #social 08:44:55 the_frey has joined #social 08:45:52 jasnell has joined #social 08:50:05 bblfish has joined #social 09:29:45 danbri has joined #social 10:35:06 jasnell has joined #social 12:14:27 the_frey has joined #social 12:47:32 the_frey has joined #social 13:07:52 harry has joined #social 13:09:17 mechanic has joined #social 13:14:58 Arnaud has joined #social 13:24:17 jasnell has joined #social 13:49:52 nicolagreco has joined #social 13:53:54 pfefferle has joined #social 14:08:39 nicolagreco has joined #social 14:16:30 the_frey has joined #social 14:26:43 nicolagreco has joined #social 14:31:32 bblfish has joined #social 14:46:13 mechanic has joined #social 15:26:06 KevinMarks2 has joined #social 15:42:03 KevinMarks has joined #social 15:48:33 jasnell has joined #social 16:20:50 timbl has joined #social 16:33:32 pfefferle_ has joined #social 16:36:51 nicolagreco has joined #social 16:49:38 tantek has joined #social 16:50:31 good morning #social web WG! 16:50:46 tantek has changed the topic to: Social Web WG: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg - Next meeting agenda: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2014-11-11 - logs: http://socialwg.indiewebcamp.com/irc/social/today 16:52:33 mechanic has joined #social 16:52:33 tilgovi has joined #social 16:58:31 evanpro has joined #social 17:01:22 harry has joined #social 17:02:18 I forget 17:27:42 elf-pavlik_ has joined #social 17:43:30 the_frey has joined #social 17:43:50 dret has joined #social 17:45:05 warning, I'm being kicked out of my office so I'm going to be a few minutes late to the meeting 17:50:03 greetings 17:50:46 aloha 17:50:57 I presume the US is definitely off DST now and I don't need to worry about that confusing scheduling until ~March-ish? 17:51:14 correct, @osheperd 17:52:36 Its' just slightly confusing because I think EU and US must have shifted DST in <1week of each other 17:52:47 howdy! 17:53:34 US is off DST 17:54:07 yup,@oshepherd, they tend to do that just to test how much in control we are of our scheduling and calendaring tools. 17:54:58 Zakim has joined #social 17:55:08 dret, it helps sell updates to scheduling and calendaring tools, job security for the devs that work on them, etc. 17:55:18 Zakim, conference? 17:55:18 I don't understand your question, tantek. 17:55:27 (even without any actual DST shifts) 17:55:54 oshepherd: it's because they both have public test results for iCalendar's public test suite. NOT. 17:55:59 (on both counts) 17:56:22 is the conf call now, or was it an hour ago? 17:56:45 I had to apologise to an Apple store employee once for turning up 1 hour late because I'd dared to use Microsoft software with their ics file... 17:57:21 hello 17:57:35 hi 17:57:50 dret has joined #social 17:57:50 elf-pavlik has joined #social 17:57:50 evanpro has joined #social 17:57:50 tilgovi has joined #social 17:57:50 mechanic has joined #social 17:57:50 tantek has joined #social 17:57:50 jasnell has joined #social 17:57:50 KevinMarks has joined #social 17:57:50 bblfish has joined #social 17:57:50 Arnaud has joined #social 17:57:50 jaywink has joined #social 17:57:50 hadleybeeman has joined #social 17:57:50 tommorris has joined #social 17:57:50 cwebber2 has joined #social 17:57:50 bigbluehat has joined #social 17:57:50 MorbusIff has joined #social 17:57:50 rhiaro has joined #social 17:57:50 oshepherd has joined #social 17:57:50 JakeHart has joined #social 17:57:50 nickstenn has joined #social 17:57:50 dwhly has joined #social 17:57:50 rektide has joined #social 17:57:50 mattl has joined #social 17:57:50 bret has joined #social 17:57:50 Tsyesika has joined #social 17:57:50 jaakko has joined #social 17:57:50 Loqi has joined #social 17:57:50 wilkie has joined #social 17:57:50 kylewm has joined #social 17:57:50 aaronpk has joined #social 17:57:56 jessica_lily has joined #social 17:58:35 +jasnell 17:58:37 bblfish, should start now 17:58:40 fyi, Jessica_Lily == Tsyesika 17:58:52 mhh, lucky me there 17:59:09 bblfish: in ~30 sec. 17:59:34 jasnell, does voice already work? 17:59:42 +??P1 17:59:50 elf: ? 17:59:50 +??P3 18:00:06 Zakim, who is making noise? 18:00:17 tantek, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: jasnell (24%), ??P1 (46%), [IPcaller] (12%), ??P3 (34%) 18:00:26 +??P6 18:00:29 +??P5 18:00:33 i dialed in via skype 10min ago, how do i find out who i am? 18:00:34 Zakim, ??P1 is me 18:00:34 +tantek; got it 18:00:39 +evanpro 18:00:48 +??P4 18:00:58 Zakim, who is here? 18:00:58 On the phone I see [IPcaller], jasnell, tantek, ??P3, elf-pavlik, oshepherd, evanpro, ??P4 18:00:58 Zakim, ??P4 is me 18:01:00 On IRC I see Jessica_Lily, aaronpk, kylewm, wilkie, Loqi, jaakko, Tsyesika, bret, mattl, rektide, dwhly, nickstenn, JakeHart, oshepherd, rhiaro, MorbusIff, bigbluehat, cwebber2, 18:01:00 ... tommorris, hadleybeeman, jaywink, Arnaud, bblfish, KevinMarks, jasnell, tantek, mechanic, tilgovi, evanpro, elf-pavlik, dret, Zakim, timbl, shepazu, RRSAgent, trackbot, sandro, 18:01:00 ... wseltzer 18:01:00 +rhiaro; got it 18:01:02 Zakim, mute me 18:01:05 rhiaro should now be muted 18:01:08 trackbot, start meeting 18:01:10 RRSAgent, make logs public 18:01:12 Zakim, this will be SOCL 18:01:12 ok, trackbot; I see T&S_SOCWG()1:00PM scheduled to start now 18:01:13 Meeting: Social Web Working Group Teleconference 18:01:13 Date: 11 November 2014 18:01:20 I'm here but not identified on the call 18:01:23 Zakim, who is here? 18:01:24 On the phone I see [IPcaller], jasnell, tantek, ??P3, elf-pavlik (muted), oshepherd, evanpro, rhiaro (muted) 18:01:26 On IRC I see Jessica_Lily, aaronpk, kylewm, wilkie, Loqi, jaakko, Tsyesika, bret, mattl, rektide, dwhly, nickstenn, JakeHart, oshepherd, rhiaro, MorbusIff, bigbluehat, cwebber2, 18:01:26 ... tommorris, hadleybeeman, jaywink, Arnaud, bblfish, KevinMarks, jasnell, tantek, mechanic, tilgovi, evanpro, elf-pavlik, dret, Zakim, timbl, shepazu, RRSAgent, trackbot, sandro, 18:01:26 ... wseltzer 18:01:34 cwebber2: when did you call in? 18:01:37 +??P8 18:01:42 who just joined? 18:01:52 tantek: a few minutes ago 18:01:54 hold on, let me identify myself 18:02:01 -[IPcaller] 18:02:03 if you need to find your ??P nr you can try (just not everyone at the same time!) http://www.w3.org/2006/tools/wiki/Zakim_Tips 18:02:08 +Arnaud 18:02:08 tantek: i did i think 18:02:12 oops 18:02:15 tantek: I think it thinks I'm you 18:02:16 that was not me 18:02:18 q? 18:02:20 that's me 18:02:36 +bblfish 18:02:37 cwebber2, redial 18:02:39 +[IPcaller] 18:02:42 -tantek 18:02:46 Zakim, IPcaller is me 18:02:46 +wilkie; got it 18:02:47 Zakim, who's on the call? 18:02:48 On the phone I see jasnell, ??P3, elf-pavlik (muted), oshepherd, evanpro, rhiaro (muted), ??P8, Arnaud, bblfish, wilkie 18:02:52 zakim, ??p3 is me 18:02:52 +tantek; got it 18:02:57 +??P1 18:03:00 hello all :) 18:03:05 ok just came in 18:03:07 again 18:03:13 Zakim, ??P1 is cwebber2 18:03:13 +cwebber2; got it 18:03:21 I can do it! 18:03:23 zakim, mute me 18:03:23 tantek should now be muted 18:03:26 thanks wilkie! 18:03:27 +[IPcaller] 18:03:29 wilkie++ for scribing! 18:03:29 scribenick wilkie 18:03:31 wilkie has 4 karma 18:03:36 np 18:03:46 + +1.541.410.aaaa 18:03:47 zakim, +[IPcaller] is me 18:03:47 sorry, dret, I do not recognize a party named '+[IPcaller]' 18:03:58 Zakin, IPcaller is me 18:04:05 Zakim, IPcaller is me 18:04:05 +dret; got it 18:04:16 belated regrets for last week 18:04:25 evanpro: on the agenda: federation outreach to other players in social web 18:04:31 I thought (and should have posted) that we were skipping a telcon the week after TPAC 18:04:36 (as other WGs do) 18:04:38 q? 18:04:40 q- 18:04:53 evanpro: also some actions with respect to AS 2.0 18:05:01 evanpro: any actions we should do today? 18:05:05 +Sandro 18:05:12 Lloyd_Fassett has joined #social 18:05:12 evanpro: first item: approval of minutes for nov 4th 18:05:25 evanpro: any objections to the minutes? 18:05:26 I was confused by them 18:05:30 by no objection 18:05:38 but no objection, since I wasn't there :) 18:05:40 topic: Approval of minutes 18:05:43 elf-pavlik: thanks 18:05:47 no objection 18:06:05 RESOLVED: approval of minutes from Nov 4 18:06:14 s/RESOLVED/RESOLUTION/ 18:06:20 looks fine right? 18:07:01 evanpro: we will move on to the tracker. looking at open issues. 18:07:06 evanpro: there are 8 open issues 18:07:30 elf-pavlik: it is RESOLVED http://www.w3.org/2009/CommonScribe/manual.html 18:08:02 http://www.w3.org/Social/track/actions/4 18:08:09 evanpro: we have 8 open issues and 1 action for Arnaud for adding items to the FAQ 18:08:22 evanpro: harry, we have issues for you related to licensing 18:08:26 Shane has joined #social 18:08:28 Zakim, who's on the call? 18:08:28 On the phone I see jasnell, tantek (muted), elf-pavlik (muted), oshepherd, evanpro, rhiaro (muted), ??P8, Arnaud, bblfish, wilkie, cwebber2, dret, +1.541.410.aaaa, Sandro 18:08:32 Harry said he may be 5min late 18:08:47 evanpro: I don't see harry on the call so we will leave those actions for now 18:08:53 http://www.w3.org/Social/track/actions/8 18:09:09 http://www.w3.org/Social/track/actions/9 18:09:15 evanpro: James (jasnell) has two open action items. one is looking at annotation model (AnnotationWG) and AS 1.0 adapting this to 2.0 18:09:24 +??P14 18:09:27 jasnell: both are in progress. I need to follow up with Annotation people 18:09:27 Zakim, ??P14 is me 18:09:27 +Shane; got it 18:09:30 Zakim, mute me 18:09:30 Shane should now be muted 18:09:38 -rhiaro 18:09:44 jasnell: eric published something on github that we have been collaborating on. should have something in a week or two. in progress. 18:10:02 +??P4 18:10:06 Zakim, ??P4 is me 18:10:06 +rhiaro; got it 18:10:10 Zakim, mute me 18:10:10 rhiaro should now be muted 18:10:16 KevinMarks liaison with Web annotations group? 18:10:19 evanpro: on annotations, we talked about having a liason for the group. who was that? 18:10:20 zakim, unmute me 18:10:20 tantek should no longer be muted 18:10:44 tantek: that is correct [it was KevinMarks] I'll talk to KevinMarks. 18:10:44 KevinMarks agreed to (was volunteered to) liase with Annotations WG 18:10:54 Yes, though I haven't been accepted as an ie there yet 18:11:07 evanpro: that takes care of our open actions and issues (with exception to harry's) 18:11:42 evanpro: next topic is API. when we talked at TPAC we talked about how a social API is within our scope and we would address it. 18:12:05 harry has joined #social 18:12:13 https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Path_towards_Social_API 18:12:13 evanpro: toward the end of our meeting we got stuck on what the next steps would be. we should come up with a strategy for what our next steps would be and come up with what a working draft for social API would be. 18:12:17 tantek: thanks, sorry 18:12:18 Zakim, what's the code? 18:12:18 the conference code is 7625 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), harry 18:12:25 caseorganic has joined #social 18:12:40 +[IPcaller] 18:12:44 Zakim, IPcaller is hhalpin 18:12:44 +hhalpin; got it 18:12:48 evanpro: we need to be clear on what we want in our social API. 18:13:02 tantek: you unmuted so I assumed heh 18:13:04 AdamB has joined #social 18:13:35 evanpro: we have many APIs (google+, twitter, etc) listed as existing social APIs we can look at and we should look at them. 18:14:10 evanpro: next, once we have a list of APIs considered social APIs, we could break up those APIs in to blocks: what is about content posting, social graph, etc. see if there are areas of functionality in those APIs we haven't talked about yet. 18:14:12 q+ re: what Social IG could help with 18:14:57 evanpro: from the point of having this, we can illicit proposals for social APIs as a way to go forward. 18:15:00 Should we include features that APIs may find useful but that propietary APIs don't have? (I have no examples, it may be a moot point) 18:15:09 evanpro: I do think we do have to have a strategy for moving forward. 18:15:11 ack elf-pavlik 18:15:13 elf-pavlik, you wanted to discuss what Social IG could help with 18:15:18 evanpro: I will stop talking and start recognizing people off the queue 18:15:20 evanpro: elf? 18:15:49 elf-pavlik: tomorrow we have a call with social web ig and they can help with that 18:15:52 q+ to ask about what about existing *interoperably implemented* open APIs that satisfy many of the same use-cases? E.g. Micropub http://indiewebcamp.com/micropub 18:15:58 ack tantek 18:15:58 tantek, you wanted to ask about what about existing *interoperably implemented* open APIs that satisfy many of the same use-cases? E.g. Micropub http://indiewebcamp.com/micropub 18:16:15 s/illicit/elicit/ 18:16:38 another call i can't make i'm afraid. it clashes with the weekly managers call at work. 18:16:42 tantek: while I agree with the approach of looking at proprietary, previous social-like APIs I think we've made much more progress in the state of the art than just that. We should at least look at what Social APIs we have today that interop... open APIs and see what cases they solve already. 18:16:57 -??P8 18:17:24 -rhiaro 18:17:28 tantek: instead of reinventing everything from proprietary building blocks. the strongest one I can think of is indiepub. which has many implementations and 8 clients supporting it which is a great deal of interop. 18:17:31 sites supporting Micropub: http://indiewebcamp.com/micropub#IndieWeb_Examples 18:17:37 -dret 18:17:40 s/indiepub/micropub/ 18:17:47 clients supporting Micropub: http://indiewebcamp.com/micropub#Clients 18:18:04 q? 18:18:12 q+ 18:18:19 evanpro: I think it is a great example. we need a mechanism to say that this is something that considers the requirements. 18:18:25 +??P4 18:18:43 +[IPcaller] 18:18:47 +??P8 18:18:53 zakim, ipcaller is me 18:18:53 +dret; got it 18:19:03 evanpro: my concern is that our time schedule is important and we shouldn't go down a use-case tarpit. 18:19:06 q? 18:19:11 ack bblfish 18:19:20 hence better to start with real world success examples 18:19:24 bblfish: I think it is great to have these examples. 18:19:24 https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Social_API_candidates 18:19:29 rather than use-cases, when we already have interop 18:20:05 bblfish: coming from an architecture point of view, I should be able to follow links without worrying much about the services underneath and do so with minimal amount of sync between services. absolute minimum. 18:20:21 bblfish: I should discover where I can post or do certain types of actions by following links. 18:20:35 - +1.541.410.aaaa 18:20:35 sounds like hypermedia to me :) 18:20:47 bblfish: if you constrain yourselves enough you can always find a means of doing and solving the requirements. 18:21:16 bblfish: if we put the constraints on, I think we will find few solutions to solve them. 18:21:25 + +1.541.410.aabb 18:21:38 +MarkCrawford 18:21:48 Vocabularies, BTW, are in Social Interest Group unless directly relevant to the API. 18:21:49 q+ to say APIs are not just a matter of vocabularies, until you've built support yourself, you cannot make any such assertion. Building is the only way of uncovering what's actually needed. 18:21:59 evanpro: We are talking about a few different levels. I want to talk about a strategy for this group to get to a working draft for a social API. 18:22:06 evanpro: what are our next steps? 18:22:06 The API is probably going to be ActivityStreams-centric 18:22:12 q+ re: hypermedia APIs 18:22:19 MarkCrawford has joined #social 18:22:22 harry - more like ActivityStreams - compatible 18:22:39 Good point - i.e. it's not an API for *all possible* social use-cases 18:22:40 there is no hard constraint to be ActivityStreams - centric, just interop 18:22:46 but for sharing status updates. 18:23:05 bblfish: I think cutting things into blocks is a good exercise. the trick is to be is to see can one of these and look at them and find limitations to them based on implementations, or maybe we see, with creativity, we can solve generic problems in a simple manner. 18:23:09 "can have a generic system" is far different than "has a working system" 18:23:46 if "can solve generic problems in a simple manner", then demonstrate proof of that by simply solving the generic problem with your own website/client implementations and document them https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Social_API_candidates 18:23:51 +aaronpk 18:24:00 q? 18:24:00 I think it makes sense to have ActivityStreams 2.0 be the basis of things, given the work that's been done 18:24:06 evanpro: I think being able to say "this is what we are trying to do. get these systems (micropub, etc) working on a set of requirements." is a great way to go. 18:24:09 ack tantek 18:24:09 tantek, you wanted to say APIs are not just a matter of vocabularies, until you've built support yourself, you cannot make any such assertion. Building is the only way of 18:24:09 I'd be surprised given the existing work put in so far if we didn't 18:24:11 evanpro: tantek? 18:24:13 ... uncovering what's actually needed. 18:24:18 ack tantek 18:24:41 tantek: I wanted to make it clear that I don't think we can accept that an API is x,y,z is true unless we have an implementation. 18:24:54 tantek: until you have built out a client/server API you just don't have any idea what is needed 18:25:05 -wilkie 18:25:10 uh oh 18:25:14 somebody else scribe plz 18:25:15 ack elf-pavlik 18:25:16 elf-pavlik, you wanted to discuss hypermedia APIs 18:25:41 elf-pavlik: difference between today's social APIs like google,fb,twitter, specific domain, 18:25:57 elf-pavlik: and ... 18:25:59 I'm pretty sure generic hypermedia APIs are not on topic. 18:26:04 evanpro: why are those different from what we are trying to do 18:26:19 elf-pavlik: because they expect very specific for specific domain 18:26:33 elf-pavlik: support certain concepts, thus API that is limited for those certain concepts 18:26:45 elf-pavlik: but like Hydra, you can discover what it does using JSON-LD 18:26:58 elf-pavlik: you don't have to have prior knowledge about what it can do 18:27:07 elf-pavlik: even with webmention and micropub, you have link relations 18:27:08 q+ 18:27:18 elf-pavlik: when you discover them, you can discover you can interact in a certain way 18:27:27 elf-pavlik: remind about the Hydra that it is a suggested candidate 18:27:28 http://w3cmemes.tumblr.com/image/101463483242 18:27:41 elf-pavlik: also Micropub and Linked Data Platform 18:27:53 evanpro: Micropub, LDP, great candidates 18:28:02 evanpro: I want to bring the conversation back to process 18:28:04 harry++ 18:28:06 harry has 2 karma 18:28:09 I don't know much about Hyrda but I do know the discovery for Micropub and Webmentions are very important/useful 18:28:18 +[IPcaller] 18:28:18 Happy to add Hydra as a candidate. 18:28:22 evanpro: are we comfortable with using those APIs as research, identifying their functionality 18:28:22 evanpro: yes, I think that's what we really want to do 18:28:22 Zakim, IPcaller is me 18:28:22 +wilkie; got it 18:28:26 ok I'm back 18:28:30 thanks 18:28:32 evanpro: and requirements 18:28:39 (still catching up) 18:28:42 But in general, I'd rather start to get consensus on something simple and build up as we get implementation experience 18:28:43 evanpro: does that sound right or do we have another path forward? 18:28:46 evanpro: and identifying the requirements we need 18:28:47 ?q 18:28:50 q? 18:28:54 ack harry 18:28:59 evanpro: or do we have another path forward 18:29:17 haryr, are you in the shower? 18:29:24 B-) 18:29:27 -elf-pavlik 18:29:32 -q 18:29:36 harry: I'm happy to have hydra added as a candidate. I tend to agree with evanpro and other folks that we could start with something simple that looks like a HTTP API and moving out for next-gen APIs. I would focus on simple and move up. 18:29:37 harry: Agreed, we should start with the simplest implementations. Small instead of monolithic. 18:29:57 +??P6 18:30:00 harry: for requirements, I think it would be best for people to draft what they want and see what we could get working. 18:30:04 who just joined? 18:30:15 harry: this requires an editor to look to find consensus 18:30:20 Zakim: ??P6 is elf-pavlik 18:30:25 https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Path_towards_Social_API 18:30:28 Zakim, ??P6 is elf-pavlik 18:30:28 +elf-pavlik; got it 18:30:33 +q 18:30:33 To repeat, I'd like to see an editor role try to get consensus with a rough draft. 18:30:34 -oshepherd 18:30:39 q? 18:30:39 ack cwebber2 18:30:40 Evan seems like he's doing a good job as that editor so far :) 18:30:46 ack cwebber 18:30:52 cwebber2: just wanted to say that it is a smart idea to go forward with this plan. 18:31:12 I'm done 18:31:15 +??P5 18:31:15 cwebber2: time schedule is short. we can't move forward until we know what requirements are. why don't we act on the current list? 18:31:18