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15:54:43 logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/11/11-html-media-irc
15:54:45 RRSAgent, make logs public
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15:54:47 Zakim, this will be 63342
15:54:47 ok, trackbot; I see HTML_WG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 6 minutes
15:54:48 Meeting: HTML Media Task Force Teleconference
15:54:48 Date: 11 November 2014
15:55:26 HTML_WG()11:00AM has now started
15:55:33 +[Microsoft]
15:55:40 zakim, [Microsoft] is me
15:55:40 +paulc; got it
15:56:13 Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-media/2014Nov/0015.html
15:57:00 adrianba has joined #html-media
15:57:51 joesteele has joined #html-media
15:58:39 + +1.408.536.aaaa
15:58:55 Zakim, aaaa is me
15:58:55 +joesteele; got it
15:59:03 scribe: joesteele
15:59:09 chair: paulc
15:59:42 jdsmith has joined #html-media
15:59:58 +jdsmith
16:00:49 davide has joined #html-media
16:01:40 agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-media/2014Nov/0015.html
16:01:41 markw has joined #html-media
16:02:08 +davide
16:02:34 +markw
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16:03:02 Topic: Agenda, Role Call
16:03:05 ddorwin has joined #html-media
16:03:05 Zakim, who is here?
16:03:05 On the phone I see paulc, joesteele, jdsmith, davide, markw
16:03:06 On IRC I see ddorwin, jernoble, markw, davide, jdsmith, joesteele, adrianba, Zakim, RRSAgent, paulc, trackbot
16:03:42 +ddorwin
16:04:05 Previous Minutes - http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-html-wg-minutes.html
16:04:05 +[IPcaller]
16:04:52 zakim, who is here?
16:04:52 On the phone I see paulc, joesteele, jdsmith, davide, markw, ddorwin, [IPcaller]
16:04:55 On IRC I see ddorwin, jernoble, markw, davide, jdsmith, joesteele, adrianba, Zakim, RRSAgent, paulc, trackbot
16:06:09 hsivonen has joined #html-media
16:06:55 zakim, [IPcaller] is hsilvonen
16:06:55 +hsilvonen; got it
16:07:00 BobLund has joined #html-media
16:07:04 zakim, who is here?
16:07:04 On the phone I see paulc, joesteele, jdsmith, davide, markw, ddorwin, hsilvonen
16:07:06 On IRC I see BobLund, hsivonen, ddorwin, jernoble, markw, davide, jdsmith, joesteele, adrianba, Zakim, RRSAgent, paulc, trackbot
16:07:35 paulc: agenda looks long - trying to figure out where we have made progress
16:07:48 topic: Media Task Force meetings
16:08:09 paulc: Possible F2F mtg -- trying to find a date and a host for January
16:08:25 ... would like to discuss today what the plan is for TF meetings through the end of the year
16:08:31 Nov 11, Nov 18, Nov 25, Dec 2, Dec 9, Dec 23, Dec 30
16:08:35 Nov 11: today
16:08:40 paulc: these are the mtg dates
16:08:44 Nov 18: David Dorwin will be absent
16:08:44 s/hsilvonen/hsivonen/
16:08:52 Dec 23 and 30 I will be absent
16:08:53 Nov 25 and Dec 2; Paul is on vacation
16:09:14 zakim, [IPcaller] is hsivonen
16:09:14 sorry, hsivonen, I do not recognize a party named '[IPcaller]'
16:09:14 paulc: could do MSE next week
16:09:17 One proposal would be to do MSE on Nov 18
16:09:26 ... any objections?
16:09:36 Nov 25 is Thanksgiving in the US
16:09:48 ... Paul will miss that date -- or could cancel
16:09:56 ... prefer not to cancel Dec 2nd if possible
16:10:16 +BobLund
16:10:16 I'd also prefer not to cancel
16:10:18 I would prefer not to cancel as well
16:10:25 Proposal to cancel Dec 23 and Dec 30
16:10:33 paulc: we can cancel Dec 23 and 30
16:10:47 We need an alternate Chair for Dec 2 and possibly Dec 9 (due to Paul's late arrival from his vacation)
16:11:00 Nov 18: MSE
16:11:09 Nov 25: Cancel due to USA holiday week
16:11:20 Dec 2 and Dec 9: EME with alternate Chair
16:11:30 Dec 16: EME and/or MSE
16:11:33 zakim, hsilvonen is really hsivonen
16:11:33 +hsivonen; got it
16:11:38 Dec 23 and Dec 30: cancel
16:11:50 paulc: how does that sound?
16:11:56 ... I will find alt chair for those mtgs
16:12:21 topic: New EME bugs since last mtg relating to bug 26332
16:12:47 paulc: collected together bugs that are related in the agenda
16:13:04 ... henris reply in bug 26332 pointing forward to his intent to file these bugs
16:13:20 s/henris/Henri's/
16:13:39 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=26332#c132 mentions the 5 new bugs
16:14:00 paulc: would like to know how we should process those 5 bugs
16:14:05 ... more information needed?
16:14:15 ddorwin: lot of the text looks good
16:14:30 ... happy to put in an iterate over it - possibly with issue boxes
16:14:37 ... looks like a little duplication
16:14:47 s/in an/in and/
16:14:59 paulc: are you proposing putting in the editors draft?
16:15:13 ddorwin: yes -- easier to see in-document what this looks like
16:15:26 paulc: henri do you want to say anything
16:15:55 hsivonen: agree that one of the bug is a dup, Domeninc bug does not contain proposed text, mine does
16:16:06 ... ok with duping as long as my text is not lost
16:16:21 ... thinkg the definition should be added first and we can iterate over that
16:16:29 Bug 27270 may be a duplicate of Bug 27166
16:17:05 ... not proposing removing the "May" proposal on https - bug that applies depends on which proposal you take
16:17:06 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=27270 is a duplicate of https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=27166 but latter doesn't have text
16:17:38 paulc: last two bugs are related to bug 26332
16:17:49 ... David, do you want to assign all 5 bugs?
16:18:28 jdsmith: we have not resolved our position on bug 27269 -- would like to review that first
16:18:37 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=27271 applies if the impl takes the https MAY and https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=27272 applies when the MAY is not taken (though it still suggests doing it anyway even when the MAY is taken)
16:18:43 ... we have discussed, don't feel that we have closed on it internally
16:18:54 paulc: when?
16:18:59 jdsmith: this week
16:19:01 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=27269 will be reviewed by MSFT this week
16:19:14 paulc: any other comments?
16:19:28 ... on master bug 26332 or subsidiary bugs
16:20:02 ... maybe since Microsoft has asked for a week, David can send a report on where we stand this Friday?
16:20:28 ddorwin: yes -- will do the definition one first and then try to review the others
16:20:43 paulc: will put this batch of bugs on next weeks agenda
16:20:57 ... would help Jerry if you can respond on the list or in the bug
16:21:08 topic: Additional new EME bugs since the last meeting
16:21:19 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=27283
16:21:31 topic: New Bug 27283 - InvalidAccessError usage is questionable; use TypeError instead?
16:21:42 paulc: filed by Domenic - no responses yet
16:21:48 ... have editors looked?
16:22:08 ddorwin: I think originally we used invalid access error since that what other specs used
16:22:15 paulc: any other editors to respond?
16:22:22 jdsmith: I can take this one
16:22:33 ACTION: jdsmith to respond to bug 27283
16:22:33 Created ACTION-72 - Respond to bug 27283 [on Jerry Smith - due 2014-11-18].
16:22:46 topic: Bugs not discussed at F2F
16:23:08 topic: Bug 27067 - Define what to do when CDM becomes unavailable
16:23:18 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=27067#c11
16:23:36 paulc: some recent discussion
16:23:47 ... where do we stand?
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16:23:56 q+
16:24:23 ddorwin: the curent status is that we want to do a MEDIA_DECODE_ERROR id CDM is lost
16:24:30 ... also discussion of a close() event
16:24:39 ... just working through the details now
16:24:56 ... other part is adding a close event to MediaKeys
16:25:11 s/id CDM/is CDM/
16:25:23 paulc: both of these are documented in the bug .. is this on your list David?
16:25:39 ddorwin: just thinking a bit more about it -- I will take it
16:25:50 topic: Bug 27093 - Support for proprietary/system-specific formats in initData should be discouraged/deprecated
16:25:58 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=27093#c10
16:26:31 paulc: comments with a question to Joe --
16:26:47 ack joe
16:27:53 joesteele: planning to supply text if possible, waiting on internal feedback
16:28:07 topic: Bug 27124 - Add "individualizationrequest" to the MediaKeyMessageType enum
16:28:15 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=27124#c14
16:28:36 paulc: some discussion in comment 14 -- Mark was asking why this is blocked before F2F
16:28:51 ddorwin: there is also a thread related to this on the mailing list -- just as long
16:28:57 ... working through the privacy issues
16:29:11 q+
16:29:14 ... can probably reference the work Henri has done when addressing this
16:29:15 Works for me
16:29:19 TF email list discusssion starts at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-media/2014Oct/0064.html
16:29:42 paulc: does this fall out naturally?
16:30:01 ddorwin: will be a minor change to add the enum and then just a dd a reference to Henri's definition
16:30:02 ack hsi
16:30:22 hsivonen: a bit concerned about blocking this bug on the privacy language from the other bugs, since that might take weeks
16:30:40 ... might get past the point where we have to ship something, don't want to ship something with the wrong enum
16:31:00 ... prefer to get the enum in the spec first and then get the privacy language in after
16:31:10 +1
16:31:43 hsivonen: if everyone agrees that this can be added, don't want to ship with the wrong enum because it was not in early enough
16:32:04 enum value proposed is "initializationRequest"?
16:32:14 paulc: is that correct?
16:32:30 hsivonen: was going for "individualizationRequest"
16:32:47 paulc: ah yes -- that was in the original bug
16:32:47 get the bikeshed of whether it is going to be called individualizationrequest or something else over with without blocking on privacy definitions
16:32:49 So we have two alternatives:
16:32:53 ... so we have two alternatives?
16:33:10 ... anyone that objects to individualizationRequest?
16:33:37 ... heating silence -- and Henri asking we implement this sooner rather than later
16:33:50 ddorwin: yes we can do it, looking for enum naming in WebIDL
16:34:08 ... 'R' may not be capitalized
16:34:24 paulc: point out that there was a further discussion with another enum
16:34:31 the "licenserequest" enum item is not camelCase
16:34:59 joesteele: that was me -- dropping for now.
16:35:14 paulc: can you impleemnt this now with thw correct case?
16:35:22 hsivonen: I am satisfied
16:35:43 paulc: you would need to indicate that this will point to text elsewhere
16:35:50 topic: Bug 27138 - Consider changing how the MediaKeySession method algorithms run other algorithms to more accurately reflect implementations
16:35:59 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=27138
16:36:19 paulc: no responses since Davids original post -- what is the status?
16:36:55 ddorwin: we have inconsistent algorithms where we fire other algorithms, current order is intentionally defined that way, but might be hard to implement
16:37:06 ... not super urgent, but would urge folks to read it
16:37:20 paulc: would be useful to have implementer feedback then on options I and II?
16:37:32 ddorwin: these are likely proposals
16:37:40 paulc: anyone who can review?
16:37:52 jdsmith: think this calls for broad review -- I will review
16:38:03 paulc: thansk Jeryr -- hopefully others will review a swell
16:38:11 s/a swell/as well/
16:38:34 paulc: in agenda item 9 -- long list it items we need progress on
16:38:44 s/it items/of items/
16:38:56 topic: Bug 27166
16:39:10 topic: Bug 27166 - All identifiers associated with a user should be clearable in the same way cookies are
16:39:21 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=27166
16:39:41 hsivonen: had not seen this bug when I wrote my text on the identifier
16:39:57 ... think my bug includes more actionable text than this one
16:40:11 topic: Bug 26887 Allowing license servers and CDMs to control data persistence and secure release
16:40:18 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=26887
16:40:32 paulc: Jerry you were going to make a concrere proposal
16:40:40 s/concrere/concrete/
16:40:58 jdsmith: having some offline discussions about this -- have an action to split out part of this into another bug
16:41:11 topic: Bug 26372 Report issues/events not related to a specific method call
16:41:17 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=26372
16:41:35 ddorwin: I had an update about maplike in comment 34
16:41:35 starting at https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=26372#c34
16:42:02 ... took the thread discussion and added the implicit methods
16:42:17 ... one of the issues with adding this is that MediaKeySession becomes maplike
16:42:39 ... in comment 35 -- proposal is to define a new method that is maplike
16:42:59 ... some discussion of returning a copy mentioned in comment 24
16:43:23 .. did not respond to Joe - but still have the keyschanged event
16:43:24 q+
16:43:39 ... Object.observer() we decide not to do - not sure now
16:43:53 ack markw
16:44:11 markw: I was expecting that we would just have a new attribute that exposes the maplike interface
16:44:18 q+
16:44:33 ... and the CDM would always just inform the application when we have a new keys status
16:44:45 ... not sure why the UA could not just keep an up to date status of all the keys
16:44:58 ddorwin: the new and separate member is comment 35 -- think we are going that way
16:45:18 ... exposing as a member is nice and easy, but could lead to unexpected behavior
16:45:36 ... whether the method returns a Promise or not is not a huge issue, but other methods do return a Promise
16:45:57 ... allows more flexibility. If application is just ignoring, no reason to copy these across
16:46:12 ... most method will probably use Prmoies going forward
16:46:43 markw: so you will always get a copy when you access attributes, in WebCrypto we decided that there was one copy that was created and that is the onle that is always returned
16:47:11 ddorwin: in comment 24 - it says that any sequence returned from this must be a copy -- doesn't have to be but would be a fixed length
16:47:22 ... we are defining our own structure so we can do what we want
16:47:33 ... i.e. continuosly updated, but could be complex
16:47:46 ... don't really care -- if folks think that is OK we could do that
16:47:52 paulc: anyone else care?
16:47:53 I think returning a copy is better than having something change under iteration
16:48:03 ... Mark did that answt you questions?
16:48:28 markw: not sure I can distinguihs all the differences, not sure which would be eaise for developers
16:48:47 ... as far as chaning underneath you, not sure it makes a difference when the change happens
16:48:57 paulc: so you are ok with a copy then?
16:49:19 markw: I am not sure how to discriminate between the two -- maybe someone more familiar with WebIDL should comment.
16:49:30 ddorwin: we should get feedback from WebIDL and developers
16:49:36 markw: I will followup with our developers
16:49:39 q?
16:49:42 ack dd
16:50:06 paulc: need folks to review this proposal from David
16:50:19 topic: Bug 24874 Positive isTypeSupported() may be misleading (MSE vs. .src=)
16:50:28 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=24874#c4
16:50:47 paulc: Joe you commented and there is a reply from David
16:51:14 ddorwin: question is whether we want to allow you to detect whether .src and EME are not supported
16:51:23 .. Joe says yes - no other feedback
16:51:36 ... want this to be correct by default for applications
16:51:46 ... probably means this has to be MSE only not .src
16:51:52 q+
16:52:09 ... mostly been talking about what to do after setting the .src
16:52:19 ack joe
16:53:24 joesteele: my question back to David is what the behavior would be
16:54:01 ddorwin: setting video.src after mediakeys is an expected use case -- can't do that
16:54:24 ... at a high level we can discuss what would happen if we set a src that would not work with the mediakeys set
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16:57:08 joesteele: so this issue is that the UA may not support .srcs with or without EME
16:57:20