00:09:23 jasnell has joined #social 00:19:42 Arnaud has joined #social 01:45:48 bblfish has joined #social 01:56:45 cmhobbs has joined #social 02:11:45 caseorganic has joined #social 02:29:12 nicolagreco has joined #social 03:11:21 bblfish has joined #social 04:15:12 bblfish has joined #social 05:17:41 bblfish has joined #social 06:19:04 bblfish has joined #social 06:25:10 bblfish has joined #social 06:46:45 Arnaud1 has joined #social 07:12:54 bblfish has joined #social 07:50:24 Arnaud has joined #social 08:09:18 bblfish has joined #social 08:33:01 pfefferle has joined #social 08:37:45 the_frey has joined #social 08:43:57 pfefferle has joined #social 09:08:54 pfefferle has joined #social 09:15:24 bblfish has joined #social 09:16:08 pfefferle_ has joined #social 09:22:37 bblfish has joined #social 10:05:09 bblfish has joined #social 10:20:47 danbri has joined #social 11:40:49 timbl has joined #social 12:11:00 danbri has joined #social 12:22:36 danbri has joined #social 12:55:28 the_frey_ has joined #social 12:55:58 timbl has joined #social 13:02:38 timbl has joined #social 13:12:51 nicolagreco has joined #social 13:24:13 timbl has joined #social 13:30:45 bblfish has joined #social 14:03:52 timbl has joined #social 14:04:09 nicolagreco has joined #social 14:35:11 the_frey has joined #social 14:59:20 the_frey has joined #social 15:10:27 nicolagreco has joined #social 15:31:57 nicolagreco has joined #social 15:38:27 cmhobbs has joined #social 15:51:06 timbl has joined #social 15:56:32 good morning, * 16:06:10 bblfish has joined #social 16:10:30 almereyda has joined #social 17:05:13 tilgovi has joined #social 17:09:47 jasnell has joined #social 17:29:24 jasnell_ has joined #social 17:31:04 elf-pavlik has joined #social 17:36:43 Arnaud has joined #social 17:41:06 AdamB has joined #social 17:42:00 almereyda has joined #social 17:51:50 Zakim has joined #social 17:52:02 Zakim, what conferences? 17:52:02 I see no active conferences 17:52:03 scheduled at this time are WAI_PF(Text)1:00PM, T&S_SOCWG()1:00PM, T&S_DNTC()12:00PM, RWC_WAPI()12:00PM, IA_WEBPD()1:00PM, XML_ET-TF()11:00AM, WAI_WCAG()11:00AM 17:53:48 Zakim, this will be SOCWG 17:53:48 ok, elf-pavlik; I see T&S_SOCWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 7 minutes 17:56:09 hello 17:56:24 hi :) 17:56:33 Zakim, what's the code? 17:56:33 the conference code is 7625 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), elf-pavlik 17:56:52 jasnell has joined #social 17:57:08 dret has joined #social 17:57:21 elf, you're early! 17:57:56 Zakim: ok, elf-pavlik; I see T&S_SOCWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 7 minutes 17:58:25 T&S_SOCWG()1:00PM has now started 17:58:32 +jasnell 17:58:45 trackbot, start meeting 17:58:47 + +1.510.206.aaaa 17:58:47 RRSAgent, make logs public 17:58:49 Zakim, this will be SOCL 17:58:49 ok, trackbot; I see T&S_SOCWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 2 minutes 17:58:50 Meeting: Social Web Working Group Teleconference 17:58:50 Date: 04 November 2014 17:58:54 MarkCrawford has joined #social 17:59:21 zakim, aaaa is me 17:59:21 sorry, dret, I do not recognize a party named 'aaaa' 17:59:39 zakim, +1.510.206.aaaa is me 17:59:39 sorry, dret, I do not recognize a party named '+1.510.206.aaaa' 17:59:44 zakim, this is socl 17:59:44 ok, Arnaud; that matches T&S_SOCWG()1:00PM 17:59:53 zakim, who's on the phone? 17:59:53 On the phone I see jasnell, +1.510.206.aaaa, ??P2 (muted), Arnaud 17:59:55 howdy 18:00:04 zakim, aaaa is dret 18:00:04 +dret; got it 18:00:10 +evanpro 18:00:15 Zakim, who's on the call? 18:00:15 On the phone I see jasnell, dret, ??P2 (muted), Arnaud, evanpro 18:00:28 evanpro has joined #social 18:00:31 Zakim, ??P2 is me 18:00:31 +elf-pavlik; got it 18:00:31 of course, as soon as I dial in, a guy starts tearing up the road outside with a jackhammer 18:00:41 Zakim, who's on the call? 18:00:41 On the phone I see jasnell, dret, elf-pavlik (muted), Arnaud, evanpro 18:01:02 +??P5 18:01:13 Arnaud has changed the topic to: Social Web WG: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg - Next meeting agenda: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2014-11-04 - logs: http://socialwg.indiewebcamp.com/irc/social/today 18:01:27 + +1.202.312.aabb 18:01:54 +AdamB 18:01:58 zakim, +1.202.312.aabb is me 18:01:58 +MarkCrawford; got it 18:01:59 My regrets! I have to miss the meeting this week. 18:02:10 calling in 18:02:11 +Sandro 18:02:22 +[IPcaller] 18:02:33 claudio has joined #social 18:02:37 Zakim, IPcaller is me 18:02:38 +wilkie; got it 18:02:39 danbri has joined #social 18:02:53 Zakim, ??P5 is claudio 18:02:53 +claudio; got it 18:03:03 alternating weeks seems reasonable 18:03:17 +??P10 18:03:27 alternating seems reasonable 18:03:33 + +1.408.335.aacc 18:03:40 but there was a lot of time spent picking the current time 18:03:44 it seems fair 18:03:45 +aaronpk 18:03:55 408.335 is me 18:04:20 Zakim, aacc is KevinMarks 18:04:20 +KevinMarks; got it 18:04:48 harry has joined #social 18:04:48 I sure am 18:04:53 Zakim, aacc ??P10 is cwebber2 18:04:53 I don't understand 'aacc ??P10 is cwebber2', elf-pavlik 18:04:58 Zakim, ??P10 is cwebber2 18:04:58 +cwebber2; got it 18:05:08 Zakim, what's the code? 18:05:08 the conference code is 7625 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), harry 18:05:33 SOCL 18:06:05 I could do it 18:06:12 thanks elf-pavlik :D 18:06:14 scribe: elf-pavlik 18:06:18 scribenick: elf-pavlik 18:06:18 Thanks elf-pavlik ! 18:06:21 where is agenda? on wiki? 18:06:38 agenda: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2014-11-04 18:06:38 KevinMarks: see topic 18:06:39 KevinMarks: irc topic 18:06:50 How long would spectating such a call as right now take? 18:06:54 +Harry_Halpin 18:07:04 topic: TPAC Debfriefing 18:07:28 + +1.541.410.aadd 18:07:32 I'll be working on minutes, but we had some errors that require special processing due to the day shift 18:07:39 So we'll have to approve them next meeting 18:07:43 re TPAC minutes 18:07:51 topic: Admin 18:08:00 no objection 18:08:02 no objection 18:08:03 subtopic: approval of minutes for 21 october 18:08:11 Lloyd_Fassett has joined #social 18:08:28 RESOLUTION: approved mintues from October 21st 18:08:30 timbl has joined #social 18:08:38 subtopic: tracking actions and issues 18:09:07 Arnaud, we collected many ISSUES and ACTIONS during TPAC 18:09:09 raised issues: http://www.w3.org/Social/track/issues/raised 18:09:44 ... i would like to propose that we all agree to open them all 18:10:17 Sandro 18:10:30 q+ 18:10:34 Mght be useful just to review issues to make sure we're all on same pages for folks who missed TPAC 18:10:38 sandro: to Arnaud you can decide as group chair to open those issues 18:10:51 sadly unable to view that page at the moment 18:10:52 ack evanpro 18:11:08 evanpro: unless someone objects lets move them to open 18:11:12 -wilkie 18:11:39 RESOLUTION: we will open all raised issues 18:12:20 q+ 18:12:22 Open actions: https://www.w3.org/Social/track/actions/open 18:12:26 ack evanpro 18:12:54 evanpro: will close ACTION-10, requests reveiw 18:12:56 yes saw it 18:13:08 Arnaud, claims victory on ACTION-7 18:13:09 evan: dret and I are reviewing 18:13:20 jasnell: great 18:13:20 q+ 18:13:24 Can you mark that as closed, then? 18:14:24 congrats Arnaud :) 18:14:28 Arnaud, initially suggested his availability for early february but needed to change due to expecting a child toward the end of january 18:14:38 In terms of timing we have lots of deliverables it would be good to get out by end of Q1 2015, so I'd be happy to meet 18:14:38 http://doodle.com/3cfvrfqr6n9cgdzs 18:14:44 anytime before end of March. 18:14:45 ack jasnell 18:14:52 +[IPcaller] 18:14:56 Zakim, who is making noise? 18:15:06 aaronpk, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: jasnell (67%) 18:15:19 +??P16 18:15:21 elf-pavlik, i can't minute because of some noise on line 18:15:21 Zakim, IPcaller is me 18:15:21 +wilkie; got it 18:15:48 thanks for muting! 18:15:56 dromasca has joined #social 18:16:01 Zakim, who's making noise? 18:16:05 jasnell, ACTION-8 in progress, email sent to mailing lists 18:16:15 harry, listening for 13 seconds I could not identify any sounds 18:16:33 Arnaud, let's leave it open for now 18:16:43 + +972.3.645.aaee 18:17:12 jasnell: on ACTION-9 having progress with dret 18:17:30 aaee is dromasca 18:17:54 harry: little back and forth with ???, looks positive so far 18:18:10 topic: TPAC Debriefing 18:18:32 subtopic: minutes needs cleanup and make logs public 18:18:36 the irc logs are html 18:18:50 harry, working on it, will take a little 18:18:55 harry: working on it, will take a little 18:18:56 progress being made with Google and Actions, don't publish an alternative FPWD 18:19:08 We have Loqi catching all the minutes as well. 18:19:33 q+ 18:19:44 Arnaud, 3 versions of minutes, IRC log, another autogenerated by irc bot, next one manually copied to wiki 18:20:16 ... asked system team for suggestions, they could make irc log writeable by HTTP PUT, which would allow us to edit log and regenerate minutes 18:20:38 ... will follow up on that and let's hop we can have it working and documented 18:20:43 ack harry 18:20:44 elf-pavlik: thanks Arnaud! 18:21:01 q+ 18:21:06 harry: pandoc does the conversion very well, we could try to automate it with it 18:21:21 harry: any link to information on pandoc ? 18:21:40 ack evanpro 18:21:43 Arnaud: also scribe developed by sandro, but system teams has some issues with it 18:21:54 s/scribe/commonscribe/ 18:22:10 evanpro: just use the automaticaly generated minutes, if we need to make changes we just add errarta on wiki page 18:22:36 Arnaud: problem with autogenerated minutes - very bad quality 18:22:59 we do have a list of nicknames to real names and websites 18:23:00 ... we should capture attendance, who stays present, we need to translate nicknames to real names 18:23:15 jasnell has joined #social 18:23:23 who of you are complaining about this? haha 18:23:23 ... elf missed out that one needs to use : and can't use , after nick of person speaking 18:23:27 https://www.w3.org/wiki/IRC-people 18:23:47 and it's even machine-readable http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2Fwiki%2FIRC-people 18:23:53 State of the art in W3C systems seems to have frozen in late 90s, but that's where we are. 18:24:06 If a funder wants to show up and help us, that would be great! 18:24:27 Arnaud: TPAC, I don't want to take people through the whole minutes but happy to answer questions 18:24:39 hm, aaronpk, most of those don't have full names 18:24:46 coudl be easily added 18:25:08 ... we had some good conversation about Actiions, even tantek realized that they match what IndieWeb comunity do with their 18:25:50 ... we discussed 'what we mean by Social API', we resolved that we talke about HTTP REST API which allows clients to access servers 18:26:17 ... we should highlight in in minutes and accept possible objections to such definition of 'Social API' 18:26:38 ... we discussed federation protocol, we don't have concrete way forward but could clarify a lot about this topic 18:26:53 ... we had discussion with Social IG, most folks attended the whole meeting 18:27:17 ... they presented overview of what they work on and tried to get feedback if they stay on the right tracks when it comes to usecases 18:27:35 ... we setup doodle pool for the dates and location for next F2F meeting 18:28:00 ... also interesting cross meeting with Annotation WG, one of the opportunities created by TPAC 18:28:36 ... two working groups met together and realized that we don't have overlap on deliverables, but we have big overlap on the topic, we could provide Social API they need 18:28:53 ... we could explain to each other what we work on 18:28:56 q+ 18:29:18 ... we found that adding annotation to a web page, and adding comment to a blog post have very similar mechanics 18:29:31 ... we agreed to take a closer look at it 18:30:11 ... also meeting with some of schema.org people, aside from WG meeting on wednesday during time for ad-hoc meetings, presen from google side Guha, danbri and Sam Goto 18:30:13 TBL even attended 18:30:28 generally seemed to have a positive vibe to it 18:30:30 ... we will follow up with them on overlap with Actions 18:30:47 their idea is to submit as a Note 18:30:51 ... schema.org could submit their Action vocab subtree 18:30:57 will be following up with them, however 18:31:10 ack harry 18:31:16 they don't currently show archival versions, but dan said they would 18:31:28 harry: clarifying 1 or 2 things regarding liason 18:31:41 ... Anotations may need to connect to acrivity stream 18:31:55 ... they may want to build on our spec 18:32:08 ... when it comes to schema.org we 'dance' with google to possibly join the WG 18:32:12 I believe danbri is on the line, which is great 18:32:33 He's in the IRC channel 18:32:48 otherwise they can submit Actions and we better hold with publishing alternative 18:33:15 Arnaud: and we have nice group photo 18:33:32 ... few people could join remotely over http://talky.io WebRTC based app 18:33:48 ... doesn't require any registration etc. just modern borwser 18:34:14 ... we agreed that we acheved goals setup for that meeting and now we just need to continue our work 18:34:20 TOPIC: Activity Streams 2.0 18:34:22 q+ 18:34:41 subtopic: require JSON-LD compacted serialization 18:34:48 ack jasnell 18:35:10 jasnell: JSON-LD allows expessing document in various form, which serializes same data in different ways 18:35:33 ... the compacted form stays closest to what AS1 has and what most people expect 18:35:59 ... it makes sense to require that interchange AS2.0 document in compacted form 18:36:09 q 18:36:13 +q 18:36:18 sandro 18:36:22 This requirement should only apply to the application/activitystream+json media type 18:36:26 ack sandro 18:36:35 Zakim, who's making noise? 18:36:48 evanpro, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: jasnell (65%), Sandro (9%), Harry_Halpin (16%) 18:36:52 processing without a json-ld processor is a goal surely? 18:36:58 sandro: people need to require 'our' context or compatibile context 18:36:59 harry: can you mute please? 18:37:10 +q 18:37:13 ... also something about people who don't have JSON-LD processor 18:37:25 zakim, mute harry 18:37:25 Harry_Halpin should now be muted 18:37:31 Arnaud: thanks! 18:37:50 previously we talked about an implied context to include as1 18:38:04 ack dret 18:38:09 sandro: we may need concrete schema for compacted version 18:38:56 dret: if we make this statement, we need to tell people what to do if they don't use JSON-LD toolset 18:39:10 ... or say - don't even try to do that without JSON-LD processing 18:39:13 If you don't use a JSON-LD toolset, then its' just JSON 18:39:51 ack cwebber2 18:40:01 ack cwebber 18:40:38 cwebber2: i think that requiring by default compacted form with default context is good way to go 18:41:17 ... i only have limited experience with implementing JSON-LD in GNU Media Goblin 18:41:28 the value of the @context is confirming the assumptions of the processor 18:41:40 Arnaud: how do people know which is which ? 18:41:47 q+ 18:42:00 https://github.com/jasnell/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/issues/48#issuecomment-61594615 18:42:01 Zakim, unmute harry 18:42:01 Harry_Halpin should no longer be muted 18:42:03 it seems like if you want to use extensions that aren't default in there, then you expand the document 18:42:11 harry, any word on my application? 18:42:24 jasnell: way exists to define profile but we may not need it 18:42:26 It was sent to chairs, not sure where it is 18:42:31 in their pipeline 18:42:38 Folks were a bit busy at TPAC 18:42:40 thanks 18:42:43 i figured as much 18:42:46 ack harry 18:42:48 jasnell: we have JSON-LD context which could serve as default for compacting 18:42:50 I'm in favor of implicit context for AS mediatype 18:42:50 having it compacted by default with default context gives best of both worlds: ability to write quick scripts, but also the ability to extend and not have things get totally vague 18:43:16 harry: my intuition, that if we normativly specify it and people don't do it it puts W3C in bad light 18:43:48 you can always expand JSON by adding keys; you can also add more contexts to explain them 18:43:52 almereyda has joined #social 18:44:01 ... we know that tons of JSON exists out there and not so much JSON-LD, let's recommend default context and see how people use it or use other contexts 18:44:22 ... does anyone know if JSON-LD processings spreads in a wild? 18:44:42 We're doing another chairs call Monday so I'll try to make sure they get to it 18:44:44 Arnaud: I think we don't have enough information to make this decision now 18:44:50 Proposed: Require JSON-LD compacted serialization and close Github Issue-48 https://github.com/jasnell/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/issues/48 18:45:05 Proposed: Require JSON-LD compacted serialization with a default context and close Github Issue-48 https://github.com/jasnell/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/issues/48 18:45:10 +1 18:45:11 I'd like our specs to be conformant, but we also have to realize we don't have much data on how JSON-LD is being used in the wild 18:45:17 +1 18:45:18 +1 18:45:22 +0 18:45:25 i am not sure this is well-defined as it is stated. so -1 18:45:27 +1 (implied concept) 18:45:28 +1 18:45:34 +0 18:45:35 +0 18:45:39 +1 18:45:45 -oshepherd 18:45:49 +0 18:46:05 +??P13 18:46:13 I'd be interested if anyone has any idea if people tend to make explicit @context or not in the wild. 18:46:30 this reminds me of profile 18:46:32 q? 18:47:05 dret: it worries me that we need to think about various aspecs if people use extensions and model vs. syntax 18:47:14 I'm sorry, that objection is not very clear to me 18:47:23 ... doesn't see it well defined as it stands now 18:47:25 I'm not even sure I understand what the question was there 18:47:43 jasnell: not quite sure about the objection 18:48:36 does "default context" mean it has to have an @context key, or that it is implied? 18:48:50 dret: maye i don't understand fully JSON-LD compacting mechanism 18:48:59 Whatever you put in there comes out with full URIs 18:49:13 ... what happens to URIs not mapped in @context 18:49:39 q+ 18:50:37 dret: discussing JSON-LD details with jasnell 18:50:52 ack KevinMarks 18:50:53 I also don't understand the issue 18:50:53 Arnaud: we should take it offline and come back to this proposal 18:51:09 KevinMarks: tries to clarify what we mean by 'default context' 18:51:42 +1 18:51:51 I think we're trying to get out of forcing people to include @context 18:51:57 jasnell: if one not specified one should use one recommended by the spec 18:52:00 I'm not sure how we can get proper interoperability if we don't mandate processing via our context 18:52:08 its one of those things that developers are likely to forget in cut and paste :) 18:52:15 If you add your own prefixes, then your compact form will NOT be the same as the AS2 context 18:52:20 sandro: or use *compatibile* context (eg. extended with more mappings) 18:52:33 Arnaud: asks dret if that helps 18:52:36 I agree, avoiding collisions is god 18:52:37 good 18:52:39 not bod 18:52:46 wow, can't even spell my typo 18:52:48 that makes sense -so if a context is supplied it can't redefine name as age or something 18:52:49 dret: needs to discuss this topic more 18:52:59 We need to require processing with _our_ context else we will get non-interoprarble results in the wild 18:53:15 cwebber2: do you mind putting the federation discussion on next week's agenda? 18:53:22 subtopic: remote "rel" from as:Link 18:53:32 evanpro: happy to... how do I do that, just add to the wiki? 18:53:44 cwebber2: I'll get the next agenda page up at the end of the call 18:53:46 elf-pavlik: as:Link can wait! 18:53:49 evanpro: great :) 18:53:52 oshepherd: it doesn't have to be the same, but it has to be compatible -ie an intersection? 18:54:00 jasnell: starting with rel 18:54:10 ... it doesn't make sense once you expand it 18:54:21 evanpro: when meeting ends, can you stick around for a couple of minutes for me to PM you? should be very short 18:54:29 ... it should stay property of the subject not the link itself 18:54:36 ... in general of questionable value 18:54:55 ... recommend to remove it, only one (mine) implementation uses it 18:55:08 Arnaud: do people understand this case? 18:55:17 would this mean we'd lose rel's when mapping to HTML? 18:55:18 jasnell: separate issue from removing as:Link ! 18:55:24 or have to know to add them? 18:55:47 btw, it is this discussion: https://github.com/jasnell/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/issues/47 18:55:52 KevinMarks: If you want to do use your own context, you need to expand using ours then compact using your own. if you add your own prefixes, etc, you'll produce output with those prefixes which will not be interoperable 18:55:53 Proposed: remove "rel" from as:Link and close Github Issue-47 https://github.com/jasnell/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/issues/47 18:55:59 q+ 18:56:01 I'm not sure where "preview" goes, but it is an odd property 18:56:01 +1 18:56:06 ack KevinMarks 18:56:26 KevinMarks: has consern about value of rel in html and microformats 18:56:51 Kevin: it would change from {"image": {"rel": "preview", "@id": "http://..."}} to {"preview": {"@id": "http://"} 18:56:51 ... if we remove rel, it may close path to easy mapping to microformats 18:57:26 - +972.3.645.aaee 18:57:34