19:48:19 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aapi
19:48:19 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/11/04-aapi-irc
19:48:21 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs member
19:48:21 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #aapi
19:48:23 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAI_PF
19:48:23 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see WAI_PFWG(AAPI)3:00PM scheduled to start in 12 minutes
19:48:24 <trackbot> Meeting: Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference
19:48:24 <trackbot> Date: 04 November 2014
19:49:32 <clown> agenda: this
19:49:39 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-1185: (Joseph, Cynthia) Review edits: UIA Express and UIA mappings for role=heading/aria-level using heading paragraph style.
19:49:45 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-1492/ISSUE-671: (David) Review Joseph's solution for widgets re: aria-invalid and its token values.
19:49:51 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-1445/ISSUE-661: (Cynthia) Investigate ideal mapping for role presentation in tables and lists.
19:49:57 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-1515/ISSUE-678: (Rich) Discuss issue-678 at the Mon ARIA teleconference.
19:50:02 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-1151: (Joseph) Create a flowchart or process diagram of the ARIA accessible name computation.
19:50:08 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-1409: (Joanie) Monitor progress of bug against atk requesting new position, level, and other api be added (https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=727453).
19:50:15 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-1373/ISSUE-441: (Cynthia) Create a test case for when aria-posinset and aria-setsize are provided explicitly on some but not all elements.
19:50:22 <clown> agenda+ be done
19:50:29 <clown> zakim, agenda?
19:50:29 <Zakim> I see 8 items remaining on the agenda:
19:50:30 <Zakim> 1. ACTION-1185: (Joseph, Cynthia) Review edits: UIA Express and UIA mappings for role=heading/aria-level using heading paragraph style. [from clown]
19:50:30 <Zakim> 2. ACTION-1492/ISSUE-671: (David) Review Joseph's solution for widgets re: aria-invalid and its token values. [from clown]
19:50:30 <Zakim> 3. ACTION-1445/ISSUE-661: (Cynthia) Investigate ideal mapping for role presentation in tables and lists. [from clown]
19:50:33 <Zakim> 4. ACTION-1515/ISSUE-678: (Rich) Discuss issue-678 at the Mon ARIA teleconference. [from clown]
19:50:33 <Zakim> 5. ACTION-1151: (Joseph) Create a flowchart or process diagram of the ARIA accessible name computation. [from clown]
19:50:33 <Zakim> 6. ACTION-1409: (Joanie) Monitor progress of bug against atk requesting new position, level, and other api be added (https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=727453). [from
19:50:33 <Zakim> ... clown]
19:50:36 <Zakim> 7. ACTION-1373/ISSUE-441: (Cynthia) Create a test case for when aria-posinset and aria-setsize are provided explicitly on some but not all elements. [from clown]
19:50:36 <Zakim> 8. be done [from clown]
19:50:44 <clown> chair:  Joseph_Scheuhammer
19:50:54 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/11/04-aapi-minutes.html clown
19:54:24 <Zakim> WAI_PFWG(AAPI)3:00PM has now started
19:54:31 <Zakim> +[GVoice]
19:54:38 <clown> zakim, GVoice is Joseph_Scheuhammer
19:54:38 <Zakim> +Joseph_Scheuhammer; got it
19:54:44 <clown> zakim, I am Joseph_Scheuhammer
19:54:44 <Zakim> ok, clown, I now associate you with Joseph_Scheuhammer
19:54:55 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/11/04-aapi-minutes.html clown
19:58:07 <Zakim> +Joanmarie_Diggs
20:02:09 <Zakim> +Bryan_Garaventa
20:05:27 <bgaraventa1979> bgaraventa1979 has joined #aapi
20:05:48 <bgaraventa1979> zakim, I am Bryan_Garaventa
20:05:48 <Zakim> ok, bgaraventa1979, I now associate you with Bryan_Garaventa
20:13:47 <joanie> scribenick: joanie
20:13:56 <joanie> Zakim, take up item 6
20:13:56 <Zakim> agendum 6. "ACTION-1409: (Joanie) Monitor progress of bug against atk requesting new position, level, and other api be added (https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=727453)."
20:14:00 <Zakim> ... taken up [from clown]
20:14:03 <clown> action-1409?
20:14:03 <trackbot> action-1409 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Monitor progress of bug against atk in gnome's bugzilla requesting new position, level, and other api be added (https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=727453) -- due 2014-10-28 -- OPEN
20:14:03 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1409
20:14:45 <joanie> JD: The plan is that I will very likely just port (more or less) the API that is in IA2 to ATK and AT-SPI2.
20:15:14 <joanie> JD: The API I'm talking about is IAccessible2::groupPosition.
20:15:42 <joanie> JS: There is a note in the action where we said we'd move the due date out a month.
20:16:17 <joanie> JS: You (Joanie) also said that you'd do an initial implementation.
20:16:50 <joanie> JS: So let's move it to the 25 November.
20:16:56 <joanie> JD: Perfect.
20:18:48 <joanie> Topic: Name computation
20:18:50 <clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/accname-aam/accname-aam.html
20:19:16 <joanie> JS: The above is the latest document which I have more or less got done the Friday before TPAC.
20:19:24 <joanie> JS: I sent out an email about it.
20:19:26 <clown> action-1474?
20:19:26 <trackbot> action-1474 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to Work with joseph s. and david b. to rewrite text alternative computation for both the aria spec. and the core accessibility api mappings specification. -- due 2014-10-30 -- PENDINGREVIEW
20:19:26 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1474
20:19:27 <joanie> action-1474
20:19:27 <trackbot> action-1474 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to Work with joseph s. and david b. to rewrite text alternative computation for both the aria spec. and the core accessibility api mappings specification. -- due 2014-10-30 -- PENDINGREVIEW
20:19:27 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1474
20:20:22 <joanie> JS: I sent that email on the 31st.
20:20:40 <joanie> JS: Steve noticed and started tweeting about it.
20:20:53 <joanie> JS: I wasn't able to reach too many people, but I was able to reach Rich.
20:21:04 <joanie> JS: Did you all talk about it?
20:21:09 <joanie> BG: I don't recall doing so.
20:21:17 <joanie> JS: I didn't see it in the minutes.
20:22:02 <clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/accname-aam/accname-aam.html#mapping_additional_nd_te
20:22:20 <joanie> JS: Most important changes are in the above section.
20:23:33 <richardschwerdtfeger> richardschwerdtfeger has joined #aapi
20:23:51 <Zakim> +Rich_Schwerdtfeger
20:25:25 <clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/accname-aam/accname-aam.html
20:25:37 <joanie> RS: I need to integrate that in the SVG spec.
20:25:55 <clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/accname-aam/accname-aam.html#mapping_additional_nd_te
20:25:56 <joanie> RS: Is there a way to reference a given area in ReSpec?
20:26:22 <joanie> JS: All I do is ../ -- it's just a relative URL.
20:26:33 <clown> ../accname-aam/accname-aam.html#mapping_addtional_nd-te
20:26:42 <joanie> JS: Like that (the above)
20:27:00 <clown> the above assumes you are in the svg-aam directory.
20:27:27 <joanie> JS: I know there's automatic linking for the glossary.
20:27:42 <Zakim> +David_Bolter
20:27:46 <davidb> davidb has joined #aapi
20:27:48 <joanie> RS: We used to have a class to reference things like the name computation spec.
20:28:18 <joanie> JS: The role references, state, etc. is something I wrote. I didn't write anything for the accessible name computation.
20:28:49 <joanie> RS: There are places where we are supposed to tie to each of these particular things.
20:29:04 <joanie> RS: Where do we go to reference the host language semantics?
20:29:14 <joanie> RS: Like the title attribute.
20:29:22 <joanie> JS: It's step 2D.
20:29:30 <clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/accname-aam/accname-aam.html#mapping_additional_nd_te
20:29:53 <joanie> JS: Go the above and then scroll to 2D.
20:30:12 <joanie> RS and JS: (Each reading from documents in front of them)
20:30:29 <richardschwerdtfeger> Otherwise, if the current node's native markup provides an attribute or element that defines a text alternative, return that alternative as a flat string, unless the element is marked as presentational (role="presentation" or role="none").
20:30:30 <richardschwerdtfeger> Above wording taken from second note in ISSUE-522.
20:31:32 <joanie> JS: So what you want is a way to refer to step 2D.
20:31:36 <joanie> RS: Yes.
20:32:15 <richardschwerdtfeger> <a class="core-mapping" href="#role-map-none">
20:32:28 <joanie> RS: So we have (the above). And we should have one for name-mapping and then take the ID.
20:32:41 <joanie> RS: So it expands to your (Joseph's) document.
20:32:58 <joanie> JS: OK. Send me an email that outlines that.
20:33:45 <joanie> Zakim, take up item 2
20:33:45 <Zakim> agendum 2. "ACTION-1492/ISSUE-671: (David) Review Joseph's solution for widgets re: aria-invalid and its token values." taken up [from clown]
20:33:54 <clown> action-1492?
20:33:54 <trackbot> action-1492 -- David Bolter to Investigate issue 671 and propose a solution that is clear for widgets -- due 2014-09-30 -- OPEN
20:33:54 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1492
20:34:17 <clown> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2014Jul/0081.html
20:34:25 <joanie> JS: This is the crucial email in which I outlined the solution.
20:34:35 <joanie> JS: James Craig said fine for Apple.
20:34:47 <joanie> JS: Marco replied saying that is what Firefox does now.
20:34:54 <joanie> JS: I want confirmation from you (David).
20:36:06 <joanie> JS: You expose invalid:true as a text attribute.
20:36:13 <clown> aria-level="it's matt fault"
20:36:24 <clown> aria-invalid="it's matt's fault".
20:36:44 <joanie> JS: If aria-invalid is set to "it's matt's fault" it gets mapped in IA2 as state-invalid is set
20:36:45 <clown> Expose "invalid:true" as a text attribute.
20:37:02 <joanie> JS: You lose "it's matt's fault" completely.
20:37:15 <joanie> DB: I can confirm that's what we do. And that doesn't seem especially bad.
20:37:25 <joanie> JS: Same thing happens on ATK/AT-SPI2.
20:37:32 <joanie> JS: I still need Cynthia's input.
20:37:40 <joanie> DB: That seems fine for me.
20:39:15 <clown> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2014Jul/0081.html
20:40:14 <joanie> JS: Stefan wants more invalid types, but that seems like something which belongs in the ARIA spec.
20:40:40 <joanie> JS: I don't take his comment to mean what we're proposing here is incorrect.
20:40:59 <joanie> JS: I just need Cynthia's input for the UIA mapping.
20:41:45 <clown> The mapping of aria-invalid="unknown value" for IA2 ...
20:42:15 <joanie> RESOLUTION: The mapping of aria-invalid="unknown value" for IA2, ATK/AT-SPI2, and AX API are as stated in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2014Jul/0081.html.
20:42:44 <joanie> DB: I need to leave.
20:42:46 <Zakim> -David_Bolter
20:42:49 <joanie> Zakim, take up item 4.
20:42:49 <Zakim> agendum 4. "ACTION-1515/ISSUE-678: (Rich) Discuss issue-678 at the Mon ARIA teleconference." taken up [from clown]
20:42:58 <clown> action-1515?
20:42:58 <trackbot> action-1515 -- Richard Schwerdtfeger to Discuss issue-678 at the mon aria teleconference. -- due 2014-10-07 -- OPEN
20:42:58 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1515
20:43:00 <joanie> JS: This action of yours is due.
20:43:16 <clown> issue-678?
20:43:16 <trackbot> issue-678 -- What is the ideal mapping for the aria group role, such that it does not semantically conflict with the generic group role on AAPIs, e.g., AXAPI and UIA. -- open
20:43:16 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/678
20:43:20 <joanie> JS: It's kind of a strange action since you wanted to take it up at the Monday call.
20:43:41 <joanie> RS: The problem is that -- I would put it on Monday's agenda.
20:43:50 <joanie> RS: But we have actions from Cynthia.
20:44:03 <joanie> RS: Currently in IE they make this (div) to a group role.
20:44:12 <joanie> RS: We don't want to have groups all over the place.
20:44:39 <clown> current mapping:  http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#role-map-group
20:44:48 <joanie> RS: The other problem we have is that we have a similar issue in SVG. If you put alt text on a circle without any role, it defaults to a group role.
20:45:05 <joanie> RS: I think we need to figure out what we want to call this thing.
20:45:23 <joanie> RS: I think div defaults to section in Gecko.
20:45:27 <joanie> JS: Yes.
20:46:22 <joanie> RS: Let's push this issue out a bit.
20:47:59 <joanie> JS and RS: (Discuss date and agree upon 9 December)
20:48:24 <clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#role-map-group
20:48:41 <joanie> JS: I noticed that the ATK/AT-SPI2 is role panel
20:49:19 <clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/aria/aria.html#group
20:49:36 <clown> scribenick: clown
20:49:42 <clown> JD:  A div is not a group.
20:50:05 <clown> JD:  We are going to have a problem with AAPI role section, since there is a section role.
20:50:31 <clown> JD:  A group is a container of widgets, so that maps to PANEL.
20:50:41 <clown> JD:  So, what FF is doing now is fine.
20:50:55 <clown> JD:  It's all good right now.
20:51:20 <clown> JD:  I heard doubts and questions in Rich's voice, and I wanted to understand that.
20:51:34 <clown> RS:  I want everyone to agree and have interoperabiliity.
20:51:51 <clown> RS:  Panel makes more sense, if it's a group of widgets.
20:52:13 <clown> RS:  What doesn't make sense to have a div as a group (role panel).
20:52:32 <clown> RS:  I'm not sure what we did use for html5 <section>.
20:52:59 <clown> JD:  Everywhere that is not ATK, a div is a group, and a group is a group, and you can't distinguish them.
20:53:07 <clown> RS:  right.
20:53:15 <clown> RS:  Also, <section> is mapped to region.
20:53:46 <clown> RS:  But, a div is just a generic container.
20:53:58 <clown> RS:  We need an agreement across all the browsers.
20:54:08 <joanie> https://developer.gnome.org/atk/unstable/AtkObject.html#AtkRole
20:54:13 <clown> JD:  ATK doesn't have a role region.
20:54:21 <clown> RS:  Yes, you do in object properties.
20:54:27 <clown> <laughter>
20:55:51 <clown> RS:  Take a table for example.  If you have a grid, it's mapped to table, but also as xml-roles:grid.
20:56:04 <clown> RS:  That allows ATs to not steal keystrokes in the case of a grid.
20:56:32 <clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#mapping_role
20:57:49 <joanie> scribenick: joanie
21:00:02 <joanie> Zakim, part
21:00:02 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees were Joseph_Scheuhammer, Joanmarie_Diggs, Bryan_Garaventa, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, David_Bolter
21:00:02 <Zakim> Zakim has left #aapi
21:00:21 <joanie> RRSAgent, stop