15:37:33 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #pf
15:37:33 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/10/31-pf-irc
15:37:35 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs member
15:37:35 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #pf
15:37:37 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAI_PF
15:37:37 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see WAI_PF()11:00AM scheduled to start 37 minutes ago
15:37:38 <trackbot> Meeting: Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference
15:37:38 <trackbot> Date: 31 October 2014
15:37:39 <MichaelC> rrsagent, do not start a new log
15:45:37 <kurosawa> kurosawa has joined #pf
15:51:01 <jamesn> jamesn has joined #pf
15:51:54 <MichaelC> -> http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-pf-minutes Minutes from yesterday
15:54:09 <jamesn> jamesn has changed the topic to: PF F2F at TPAC; Friday 31 October beginning 16:00Z; http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/meetings/tp2014
15:55:53 <Zakim> WAI_PF()11:00AM has now started
15:56:00 <Zakim> + +1.650.738.aaaa
15:56:25 <jamesn> zakim, who is on the phone?
15:56:25 <Zakim> On the phone I see +1.650.738.aaaa
15:56:43 <TF> TF has joined #pf
15:57:16 <bgaraventa1979> bgaraventa1979 has joined #pf
15:57:38 <Bert> Bert has joined #pf
15:57:39 <astearns> astearns has joined #pf
15:57:43 <bgaraventa1979> zakim, I am Bryan_Garaventa
15:57:43 <Zakim> sorry, bgaraventa1979, I do not see a party named 'Bryan_Garaventa'
15:57:43 <ShaneM> ShaneM has joined #pf
15:58:04 <bgaraventa1979> zakim, aaaa is Bryan_Garaventa
15:58:04 <Zakim> +Bryan_Garaventa; got it
15:58:20 <bgaraventa1979> zakim, I am Bryan_Garaventa
15:58:20 <Zakim> ok, bgaraventa1979, I now associate you with Bryan_Garaventa
15:58:37 <bgaraventa1979> would it be alright if I dialed in?
15:58:49 <liam_> liam_ has joined #pf
15:59:55 <Zakim> -Bryan_Garaventa
15:59:56 <Zakim> WAI_PF()11:00AM has ended
15:59:56 <Zakim> Attendees were +1.650.738.aaaa, Bryan_Garaventa
16:00:18 <Zakim> WAI_PF()11:00AM has now started
16:00:23 <MichaelC> zakim, call suite1234
16:00:23 <Zakim> ok, MichaelC; the call is being made
16:00:25 <Zakim> +James_Nurthen
16:00:28 <fesch> fesch has joined #pf
16:00:35 <ShaneM> present+ ShaneM
16:00:44 <bgaraventa1979> please do, it rang but no one on the other end
16:01:22 <MichaelC> zakim, call suite1234
16:01:22 <Zakim> ok, MichaelC; the call is being made
16:01:23 <Zakim> +Suite1234
16:02:00 <Zakim> -James_Nurthen
16:02:42 <Zakim> +Bryan_Garaventa
16:05:18 <ShaneM_> ShaneM_ has joined #pf
16:05:26 <MichaelC> present: Janina_Sajka, James_Nurthen, Michael_Cooper, Joanie_Diggs, John_Foliot, Shane_McCarron, Fred_Esch, Bert_Bost, Markku_Hakkinen, Kurosawa_Takeshi, Alan_Stearns
16:05:34 <ShaneM_> ScribeNick: ShaneM_
16:05:46 <ShaneM_> zakim, who is here?
16:05:46 <Zakim> On the phone I see Suite1234, Bryan_Garaventa
16:05:47 <Zakim> On IRC I see ShaneM_, fesch, liam_, ShaneM, astearns, Bert, bgaraventa1979, TF, jamesn, kurosawa, Zakim, RRSAgent, MichaelC, clown, janina__, scott_gonzalez, janina, joanie,
16:05:47 <Zakim> ... trackbot
16:05:55 <ShaneM_> TOPIC: CSS Overview
16:06:13 <MichaelC> present+ Bryan_Garaventa, Rich_Schwerdtfeger
16:06:33 <ShaneM_> JS: Our desire is to understand how CSS is thinking about CSS and its connection to the complex ox of specs
16:06:38 <MichaelC> chair: Janina_Sajka
16:06:53 <MichaelC> meeting: PF TPAC 2014 Face to Face DAy 2
16:07:02 <MichaelC> meeting: PF TPAC 2014 Face to Face Day 2
16:07:11 <ShaneM_> JS: There are probably some questions from us.  But maybe CSS people could talk about context.
16:07:24 <MichaelC> present+ James_Craig
16:07:35 <bgaraventa1979> is the number for muting my line 61?
16:07:41 <ShaneM_> RS: What we are seeing is a couple of things.  We have the ability to inject content into a page with CSS.
16:07:53 <bgaraventa1979> thnaks
16:07:56 <ShaneM_> ... there are a lot of modules and we are unsure how they all hook together.
16:07:58 <fesch_> fesch_ has joined #pf
16:08:01 <MichaelC> present+ Jon_Gunderson
16:08:26 <ShaneM_> ... A11Y relies on the DOM.  If CSS can inject things then it can confuse the A11Y efforts.
16:08:41 <ShaneM_> ... second we are looking at flexbox. flexbox changes the flow of the page.
16:08:57 <jcraig> jcraig has joined #pf
16:08:58 <ShaneM_> ... navigation via keyboard may not follow the flow of the flexbox
16:09:07 <ShaneM_> ... should flexbox change the keyboard navigation?
16:09:19 <jcraig> q+
16:09:51 <TF> zakim, TF is JF
16:09:51 <Zakim> sorry, TF, I do not recognize a party named 'TF'
16:10:07 <ShaneM_> FE: If someone uses angular, for example, to change things and display gets changed to none for some things, then there could be issues.  are there events?
16:10:11 <TF> zakim, TF is now JF
16:10:11 <Zakim> I don't understand 'TF is now JF', TF
16:10:18 <ShaneM_> JC: There are platform events.
16:10:39 <JF> JF has joined #PF
16:10:54 <ShaneM_> ???: The question is how does angular change the display mode. There are mutation events.
16:11:18 <ShaneM_> JC: No one uses those though.  BUt the rendering engine will do something sensible and raise events.
16:11:18 <astearns> s/???/astearns/
16:11:49 <ShaneM_> FE: It is not clear that things always get done correctly.
16:12:10 <jcraig> ack me
16:12:20 <ShaneM_> JC: Some changes might not be obviosly important to the engine - like changing a class.
16:12:43 <bcampbell> bcampbell has joined #pf
16:12:47 <ShaneM_> ... most of the A11Y tools work with the view layer.
16:13:08 <bcampbell> bcampbell has left #pf
16:13:17 <ShaneM_> JC: The text content that is generated by CSS is available to the rendering engine so it is available to AT on most platforms.
16:13:19 <bcampbell> bcampbell has joined #pf
16:13:34 <joanie> q+ To say it might not be CSS's issue, but there are issues bigger than ATs and a11y API needs
16:13:39 <ShaneM_> ... And it is accessible to the DOM.
16:13:41 <ShaneM_> q?
16:13:59 <ShaneM_> ... we have asked for alt on injected content, and it was provided.
16:14:26 <ShaneM_> ... for example injecting a black right pointing triangle.  need an alternate description.
16:15:02 <MichaelC> present+ Mary_Jo_Mueller, Bo_Campbell
16:15:04 <ShaneM_> ... there are ways per language to provide list markers text.  localized alt text for them.
16:15:13 <ShaneM_> JN: why not use the same mechanism?
16:15:25 <ShaneM_> JC: because it is challenging.  But it works.
16:15:31 <zcorpan> zcorpan has joined #pf
16:15:38 <zcorpan> where is the css/pf joint meeting?
16:15:38 <ShaneM_> astearns: There is alternate text?  That's news to me.
16:15:48 <ShaneM_> JC: Tab has promised to put it into CSS4.
16:15:58 <ShaneM_> Bert: Well - that's not the same as accepted but okay.
16:16:10 <ShaneM_> astearns: probably put into pseudo elements draft.
16:16:19 <MichaelC> agenda: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/meetings/tp2014.html
16:16:22 <mhakkinen> mhakkinen has joined #pf
16:16:38 <ShaneM_> JC: Flexbox - added text to clarify that it does not effect the order of speech.  Not sure it addresses all the issues that we have.
16:16:51 <richardschwerdtfeger> richardschwerdtfeger has joined #pf
16:16:57 <astearns> flexbox section: http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-flexbox/#order-accessibility
16:16:59 <ShaneM_> astearns: It is an entire section about it.
16:17:38 <ShaneM_> RS: Are you involved in all the modules JC?
16:17:52 <ShaneM_> JC: I am not, but it is more effective to do the work within CSS than from without?
16:18:13 <ShaneM_> RS: Well - but there are a lot of modules and how can we find out when things are important to A11Y?
16:18:32 <ShaneM_> ... also, about testing, is there an API that can help us?
16:18:36 <ShaneM_> Bert: Not yet.
16:18:57 <fesch> q+
16:19:03 <ShaneM_> JC: There might be a way to have CSS generated content in the DOM.  WebApps discussed it this week.
16:19:12 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
16:19:14 <MichaelC> ack j
16:19:14 <Zakim> joanie, you wanted to say it might not be CSS's issue, but there are issues bigger than ATs and a11y API needs
16:19:46 <ShaneM_> joanie: This is not just about ATs.  JC just mentioned selection.
16:20:23 <jcraig> q+ to say it would be nice to declare: from element, get pesudo-elements, and from those pseudo-elements, get the content text or object nodes
16:20:23 <ShaneM_> ... if someone uses CSS generated content to mark something important - it is not always exposed in the user agent.
16:20:40 <ShaneM_> ... I can't use the find operation to search for it.
16:20:44 <astearns> +1
16:21:02 <ShaneM_> Bert: It is our problem.  The information needs to be in the DOM.  There is a new module for DOM extensions.  Not yet on TR
16:21:04 <jcraig> generated content alt property in CSS4: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Nov/0319.html
16:21:21 <Bert> -> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-pseudo/ pseudo-elements module
16:21:22 <jcraig> currently implemented as -webkit-alt in WebKit: https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=120188
16:21:38 <ShaneM_> joanie: the selection problem might be solved by this as well.
16:22:02 <jongund> jongund has joined #pf
16:22:23 <ShaneM_> ... some screen readers do not control the navigation.  Because there is good native support for navigation.
16:22:36 <MichaelC> present+ Simon_Pieters
16:22:55 <ShaneM_> ... for example a cursor down will not land on generated content.  WebKit GTK caret navigation is used.
16:23:22 <ShaneM_> JC: If keyboard access can't get to it then the screen reader won't see it.
16:23:47 <ShaneM_> ... VoiceOver has multiple mavigation methods, but it would have missed it too.
16:23:49 <ShaneM_> q?
16:23:57 <MichaelC> ack f
16:24:15 <ShaneM_> FE: Transparency in colors.  get computed style does not tell you what the actual color is if there is transparency.
16:24:21 <MichaelC> present+ Cynthia_Shelly
16:24:36 <JF> Q+
16:24:38 <Zakim> +Matt_King
16:24:40 <ShaneM_> ... calculating contrast values is tricky in this case because the value is not in there.
16:24:50 <MichaelC> present+ Matt_King
16:24:58 <ShaneM_> astearns: we are adding blend modes that will make this even more complex
16:25:14 <ShaneM_> fesch: isn't transparency new in CSS?
16:25:28 <ShaneM_> Bert: No - there are just changes that are being made with extensions.
16:25:41 <ShaneM_> JN: no difference with backgrounds and gradients
16:25:47 <ShaneM_> fesch: but we need to do SOMETHING right?
16:25:54 <ShaneM_> JN: build better test tools.
16:26:11 <janina_> janina_ has joined #pf
16:26:15 <ShaneM_> JC: Media Controls - there is a reduce transparency and reduce motion setting on some Apple platforms now.
16:26:35 <ShaneM_> ... a distinction for a preference related media feature.  allows the page to know things that the user prefers
16:26:52 <ShaneM_> ... then the media author can query those preferences and possibly modify their output
16:27:02 <ShaneM_> ... puts the onus on the author
16:27:23 <ShaneM_> astearns: maybe not.  you could do something by default as an author.  user style sheet
16:27:40 <ShaneM_> JC: well, you could effect the default style sheet too.  But do you want to do it across the board?
16:28:06 <ShaneM_> ... there are a lot of places where motion might help the user.
16:28:06 <JF> ack JF
16:28:49 <ShaneM_> ... but it is important to let users make those choices.
16:29:00 <ShaneM_> ... it should not be across the board.
16:29:18 <ShaneM_> astearns: back to the actual display color problem.  there are things that complicate the actual displayed color.
16:29:22 <MichaelC> present+ Elika_Etimad
16:29:23 <zcorpan> zcorpan has joined #pf
16:29:34 <ShaneM_> ... you are going to have to calculate it harder.
16:29:52 <ShaneM_> ... we cannot expose colors for various security reasons (like visited links).
16:30:25 <jcraig> ack me
16:30:25 <Zakim> jcraig, you wanted to say it would be nice to declare: from element, get pesudo-elements, and from those pseudo-elements, get the content text or object nodes
16:30:25 <MichaelC> present+ Steve_Zilles
16:30:31 <ShaneM_> JN: visited link color is a foreground issue.  we are talking about background stuff.
16:30:50 <ShaneM_> Cyns: But background might need to effect foreground for contrast reasons.
16:31:17 <ShaneM_> JC: might need scripting access
16:31:27 <ShaneM_> astearns: It should be covered in the pseudo elements draft.
16:31:58 <janina___> janina___ has joined #pf
16:32:14 <ShaneM_> JC: will this solve your problem joanie?
16:32:37 <ShaneM_> joanie: no - but I am not convinced this is a CSS issue.  I want to be able to have a caret in a pseudo-element.
16:32:49 <ShaneM_> ... it is probably a rendering engine issue.
16:32:59 <ShaneM_> JC: Yes - rendering engine.
16:33:27 <ShaneM_> Cyns: Your user doesn't know whether the text is a pseudo element or not
16:33:51 <ShaneM_> RS: We need it for A11Y test tools.  If the information is not exposed, we can't test it.
16:34:06 <ShaneM_> JC: That's not enough of a reason to add a DOM API.
16:34:30 <ShaneM_> RS: We need this stuff to make it possible for testing.
16:34:41 <ShaneM_> JC: We have platform tools to test this now.
16:35:37 <ShaneM_> RS: We are testing web content...  We want to test through the DOM
16:35:38 <jcraig> q+
16:36:05 <ShaneM_> JN: It is possible to do this.
16:36:38 <jcraig> ack me
16:37:31 <ShaneM_> JC: the testing tool aspect is a benefit, not a reason.  pseudo elements and its DOM will be a help.
16:38:12 <ShaneM_> zakim, who is on the phone?
16:38:12 <Zakim> On the phone I see Suite1234, Bryan_Garaventa, Matt_King
16:40:02 <ShaneM_> (quick aside while we reorganize the room)
16:40:37 <ShaneM_> RS: The image and alt text is not necessarily exposed to the A11Y API
16:40:46 <jcraig> jcraig has joined #pf
16:40:48 <ShaneM_> ... developers want to use the latest, greatest thing.
16:41:03 <ShaneM_> ... it is not yet in the browsers for the A11Y tree.
16:41:08 <ShaneM_> JC: What's the alternative?
16:41:19 <ShaneM_> RS: We get the objects in the CSS object tree.
16:41:35 <ShaneM_> JN: If the browser is not mapping it, then no one can use it, so why are you shipping it?
16:42:11 <ShaneM_> JC: The issue is that the browser supports it but the A11Y API / tree may not yet expose it.
16:42:12 <jcraig> s/What's the alternative?/What's the alternative? If you only have backwards-compatility, you never make any progress forward./
16:42:30 <jcraig> q+
16:44:04 <ShaneM_> RS: described the way that A11Y testing is done.
16:44:09 <jcraig> q?
16:44:17 <ShaneM_> ... development teams are testing to content
16:44:28 <ShaneM_> JN: It should be in the A11Y Tree.
16:44:54 <ShaneM_> Cyns: If it doesn't work in AT then it doesn't pass accessibility.
16:45:00 <MichaelC> ack j
16:45:11 <ShaneM_> JC: let's get back to the CSS part of this discussion
16:45:30 <ShaneM_> ... Rich is concerned that new CSS features are not getting into the A11Y tree as quickly as they are into the rendering engine.
16:46:10 <ShaneM_> JS: I heard that he needs to be able to rely upon finding when feature are used.
16:46:46 <ShaneM_> JC: WebKit and Chrome are exposing this information at the platform level.  Redirect some of your developers do finding the information using the platform level tools.
16:47:25 <ShaneM_> Cyns: You could add a WCAG test to check to see if there are unsupported things in use from the CSS.
16:47:36 <ShaneM_> RS: We are not parsing the CSS.  Are you?
16:47:41 <jcraig> s/WebKit and Chrome are exposing this information at the platform level./WebKit is exposing this information in the native web dev tools. Chrome has committed to do this in a future release./
16:48:01 <ShaneM_> JN: You can look at the CSS object tree.
16:48:32 <liam_> liam_ has joined #pf
16:49:03 <joanie> q?
16:49:28 <jcraig> q+ to mention navindex and nth-fragment()
16:49:28 <joanie> q+
16:49:29 <yatil> yatil has joined #PF
16:49:45 <jcraig> ack jo
16:49:47 <ShaneM_> Cyns: Generated text is important to A11Y.  I don't care if it is in the DOM or not.  I care that ctrl-f can find it, and that I can copy and paste it.  The user does not know if it is generated.
16:50:20 <mhakkinen> +1 to Cyns
16:50:22 <ShaneM_> joanie: Is there any use case where CSS generated content should not be selectable / navigable?  Or is it something that happened?
16:50:51 <ShaneM_> Bert: Historically the CSS generated content was decorative and you might not want to be in the selectable text.
16:50:59 <jcraig> q+ to mention user-selectable (?)
16:51:12 <ShaneM_> Cyns: list styles are an example of something where if should be exposed.
16:51:24 <astearns> (just sent a note to www-style about adding selection and search requirements to the content property)
16:51:29 <jcraig> ack me
16:51:29 <Zakim> jcraig, you wanted to mention navindex and nth-fragment() and to mention user-selectable (?)
16:51:36 <ShaneM_> astearns: generated stuff could be help - a picture that pops up.  Not accessible.
16:52:01 <ShaneM_> JC: navindex is problematic
16:52:09 <kurosawa> nav-index http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-ui/#keyboard
16:52:26 <ShaneM_> Bert: this is in the UI module now
16:52:45 <ShaneM_> s/astearns:/fesch:/
16:52:48 <zcorpan> q+
16:53:47 <MichaelC> ack z
16:53:56 <ShaneM_> JC: talk about how to have navindex integrate better
16:53:59 <jcraig> q+ to mention nth-fragment() and to mention user-selectable (?)
16:54:24 <ShaneM_> Simon: this is known in the HTML group.  They are looking into possibly scoping tabindex.
16:54:32 <ShaneM_> Cyns: Having something in CSS is good as well.
16:54:52 <ShaneM_> Matt: Please don't do anything like requiring 'ctrl-tab'.  Keep it simple
16:55:02 <ShaneM_> Cyns: Why?
16:55:10 <ShaneM_> JC: because the user would not expect it.
16:55:20 <ShaneM_> fesch: how do you get out of a sub-area then?
16:55:30 <ShaneM_> JC: you navigate off the end?
16:56:00 <ShaneM_> Matt: Trapping is a separate topic (e.g., in an overlay)
16:56:25 <jcraig> ack me
16:56:25 <Zakim> jcraig, you wanted to mention nth-fragment() and to mention user-selectable (?)
16:56:44 <ShaneM_> JC: glad to hear navindex scoping is being worked on.
16:57:31 <ShaneM_> ... user select none - the ability to disable user selection via CSS
16:57:46 <kurosawa> https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/CSS/user-select
16:57:48 <ShaneM_> Bert: I don't know what this is
16:58:31 <ShaneM_> It is not a standard property.  It is not in any W3C specification.
16:58:41 <ShaneM_> Simon: we need to specify it if everyone implements it.
16:59:16 <ShaneM_> JC: If there is a need for this it should be in the DOM
16:59:39 <ShaneM_> Cyns: is Outline: none on the list?  It is a  WCAG failure.