16:14:27 RRSAgent has joined #svg 16:14:27 logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-svg-irc 16:15:22 stakagi has joined #svg 16:15:23 ScribeNick: krit 16:15:39 agenda: https://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/F2F/TPAC_2014/Agenda_proposals#SVG_topics 16:16:23 topic: review agenda 16:16:40 ed_ has joined #svg 16:16:52 stakagi has joined #svg 16:19:09 present: Doug Shephards, nikos, Tav , stakagi , smailus , ed , birtles , BogdanBrinza , krit, dino, cabanier 16:19:11 fujisawa has joined #svg 16:19:20 present: Doug Shephards, nikos, Tav , stakagi , smailus , ed , birtles , BogdanBrinza , krit, dino, cabanier , fujisawa 16:19:37 dino has joined #svg 16:19:41 present+ Cyril 16:19:44 chair: ed 16:20:07 meeting: TPAC 2014 day 1 16:20:27 shepazu has joined #svg 16:21:36 stakagi_ has joined #svg 16:24:05 shepazutu has joined #svg 16:24:20 http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/F2F/TPAC_2014/Agenda 16:24:20 [discussion about the general agenda schedule] 16:24:22 jun has joined #svg 16:24:29 Rossen_ has joined #svg 16:25:37 TabAtkins: we should discuss text stuf 16:27:39 dino: we should have a quick overview over charta and general agenda and status of SVG 16:27:45 krit: Rossen_: agree 16:28:02 present+ Rossen_ 16:28:36 Agenda is being updated from the Agenda Proposal page.... everyone is standing by with bated breath..... 16:30:17 myakura has joined #svg 16:31:41 https://wiki.csswg.org/planning/tpac-2014 16:33:32 shepazu: you are not scribing krit! 16:34:22 https://twitter.com/w3cmemes/status/527621337481609216 16:35:03 topic: blending issue 16:35:15 ed_tpac: isolation used in SVG image 16:35:20 Cyril has joined #svg 16:35:22 http://www.w3.org/TR/compositing-1/ 16:36:26 cabanier: how mix-blend-mode is handled when you link an SVG image with 16:36:26 cabanier: we have two implementations that do not follow the rule 16:36:32 cabanier: we assumed that it was hard to implement 16:36:55 cabanier: it seems we can fix the issue from spec 16:37:25 krit: the content of the SVG can blend with the HTML content? 16:37:28 dino has joined #svg 16:37:35 Tav: what is the default beaver? 16:37:44 s/beaver/behavior/ 16:38:45 cabanier: right now it is defined that a blend mode on one element ni the SVG element should not blend with anything from HTML 16:39:12 cabanier: right now the spec special cases the element 16:39:17 krit: why does it need to? 16:40:04 krit: I think we do not want the content that has blending specified with the HTML content 16:41:02 krit: I would agree with the behavior if you have inline SVG 16:41:16 nikos: you can not control the behavior from the outside anymore 16:41:45 cabanier: you could still have isolation behavior with the isolation property on 16:41:56 krit: I think this is unexpected behavior 16:43:07 krit: be there in a second 16:43:25 krit: what if UAs ever want to optimize by making a bitmap of the SVG element and then they don’t blend elements anymore? 16:43:33 cabanier: why would they? They don’t at the moment? 16:43:42 krit: but they might want in the future 16:44:46 nikos: I think the behavior that cabanier wants is expected 16:44:58 Tav: I disagree… I think an is isolated. 16:45:29 krit: you can use inline svg or even if you don’t want it to be isolated. can reference resource cross domain 16:45:34 cabanier: why does that matter? 16:47:38 krit: WebAppSec asked us to not let cross-domain stuff affect the current browser context. So maybe we should ask them first? 16:48:01 cabanier: I am not sure why you bring up cross domain now. We have that with iframe already 16:48:04 krit: do we? 16:48:19 cabanier: yes, this is the case in browsers that they do blend conent with HTML context 16:48:34 cabanier: right now the spec says only stacking context isolates 16:48:50 Tav: which browser doesn’t do that? 16:48:54 cabanier: firefox 16:49:00 krit: but it can be changed? 16:49:05 cabanier: yes, it can be changed 16:49:14 Rossen_: do you have a test case? 16:49:16 cabanier: yes 16:49:26 https://github.com/w3c/csswg-test/blob/master/compositing-1/svg/mix-blend-mode-in-svg-image.html 16:51:18 dino: I think we should isolate images 16:51:39 cabanier: it would be terrible if iframe isolate 16:51:52 krit: why? 16:52:16 Rossen_: from your perspective, you can think of iframe to be isolated 16:52:58 TabAtkins: agree 16:53:12 shepazu: from the rendering tree perspective 16:54:16 shepazu: I have a circle with blending in an iframe does it blend with the HTML content? 16:54:35 cabanier: no if iframe is a stacking context as TabAtkins discribes 16:55:01 dino: I want the image element behave similar 16:55:16 dino: I do not want content of the SVG image blend with the HTML content 16:55:26 TabAtkins: I agree 16:55:56 birtles: I disagree that an iframe is always opaque as mentioned before 16:56:05 birtles: it is not in iFrame in Firefox 16:56:16 [birtles demonstrates] 16:56:44 TabAtkins: oh, you are right, it does not need to be opaque 16:58:05 MichaelC has joined #svg 16:59:23 TabAtkins: something that references external things (speaking for iframe, object or embed) creates a stacking context 16:59:42 jasonjgw has joined #svg 17:00:15 dino: browsers should change and we can remove the at risk part 17:00:15 cabanier: ok 17:00:36 ed_tpac: do we need and action? 17:00:58 RESOLUTION: should isolate and we remove the at-risk item of the spec 17:04:19 adenilson has joined #svg 17:05:48 IA has joined #SVG 17:09:06 richardschwerdtfeger has joined #svg 17:09:59 Rich_ has joined #svg 17:12:53 ShaneM has joined #svg 17:13:19 jcraig has joined #svg 17:13:28 topic: Task Force for accessibility 17:13:29 cyns has joined #svg 17:13:33 jamesn has joined #svg 17:13:34 MichaelC has joined #svg 17:13:55 richardschwerdtfeger: We need to do a number of things 17:14:05 richardschwerdtfeger: we need to agree on the charta 17:14:17 richardschwerdtfeger: techsumity 17:14:36 richardschwerdtfeger: we would like to be able to use graphics on a level they never have before 17:14:51 richardschwerdtfeger: we need a greeter level of specificity 17:14:54 mhakkinen has joined #svg 17:15:01 richardschwerdtfeger: based on a core API mapping mechnism 17:15:23 richardschwerdtfeger: which we will share with HTML and SVG and was initially done with ARIA and 17:15:28 richardschwerdtfeger: CSS now 17:15:29 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-svg-minutes.html MichaelC 17:15:31 q+ to offer a demo (I have to leave in the next 15min) 17:15:40 richardschwerdtfeger: first thing is to add experts in this area 17:16:02 shepazu: we don’t know if it will be a normative document or not 17:16:10 richardschwerdtfeger: probably not 17:16:26 shepazu: the benefit for a normative doc is a way to validate a document 17:16:38 katie: don’t think we want that initially 17:16:48 richardschwerdtfeger: the URL to the document changed 17:17:16 janna: I want to do an overview of the strategic direction and we will do talk with HMTL as well 17:17:53 jnurthen has joined #svg 17:18:10 q? 17:18:23 jamesc: I’ll do a small overview 17:18:39 [jamesc persenting an embedded video] 17:19:08 -> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/svg-aam/svg-aam.html SVG2 Accessibility API Mappings Editors´Draft 17:19:27 jamesc: accesiblliy mapping for screen readers to svg 17:19:42 jamesc: lot of the data is in chat and map format 17:20:05 jamesc: the data should be aware of the needs 17:20:13 -> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html Core Accessibility API Mappings 1.1 Editors´ Draft 17:20:14 james: there are a lot of possibilities 17:20:25 Rossen_ has joined #svg 17:20:28 that demo was https://www.webkit.org/blog/3302/aria_and_accessibility_inspector/ 17:20:36 james: currently it is just in WebKit but others will follow 17:21:26 krit: the demo had ARIA and tabindex? 17:21:28 -> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/accname-aam/accname-aam.html Accessible Name and Description: Computation and API Mappings 1.1 Editors´ Draft 17:21:30 shans_ has joined #svg 17:21:40 jamesr: I think it does 17:21:40 jamesr: but is still based on SVG 1 17:21:42 jcraig has joined #svg 17:22:04 https://www.webkit.org/blog/3302/aria_and_accessibility_inspector/ 17:22:05 https://www.webkit.org/blog-files/aria1.0/africa_large.svg 17:22:16 s/jamesr/jcraig/g 17:22:25 marcjohlic has joined #svg 17:22:28 s/jamesc/jcraig/g 17:23:01 richardschwerdtfeger: we have 4 for the API mapping in the document, how things change, how events get fired and so on 17:23:07 s/HMTL/HTML/g 17:23:31 richardschwerdtfeger: when we go over to SVG we have things that are activated when we go over the element 17:23:44 richardschwerdtfeger: we do not have accessible elements to make browsers performant 17:24:12 richardschwerdtfeger: in HTML and SVG spec we will use that 17:24:26 richardschwerdtfeger: with differences like title and desc in sVG 17:24:28 q+ to mention the connections idea 17:24:42 richardschwerdtfeger: we have to look at this more with CSS later the week 17:25:11 richardschwerdtfeger: I and one from PF will co-chair the TF 17:25:20 richardschwerdtfeger: shepazu talked about connectors 17:25:43 richardschwerdtfeger: is that something SVG will do or should we do? 17:25:43 shepazu: it needs review 17:25:55 jcraig: it is great that we have tabindex 17:25:57 jcraig: connectors is another aspect 17:26:15 jcraig: we can describer a path context from one element to another 17:26:17 jnurthen has joined #svg 17:26:22 jcraig: so we can have display adaption 17:26:41 jcraig: like a bezier curve that stays connected while moving an element around 17:26:48 http://tavmjong.free.fr/SVG/CONNECTORS/index.xhtml 17:26:50 shepazu: TabAtkins and I do that in the next months 17:27:03 Tav: I have a proposal as well. 17:27:05 marcjohlic_ has joined #svg 17:27:13 s/TabAtkins/Tav/ 17:28:20 q+ 17:28:36 krit: the HTML WG wanted to remove priorities for tabindex, is that a problem? 17:28:41 shans__ has joined #svg 17:28:56 ??: we want to have different orders of exporing 17:29:22 s/??/fesch/ 17:29:23 BogdanBrinza has joined #svg 17:29:27 ??: we should not use tabindex but alternatives like key listeners 17:29:31 navigation: http://www.w3.org/TR/SVGTiny12/interact.html#navigation 17:29:35 s/??/fesch/ 17:29:47 focus: http://www.w3.org/TR/SVGTiny12/interact.html#focus 17:30:11 shepazu: In SVGT we had a focusable attribute to make an element focusable 17:30:27 ed_tpac: : ancors and elements that have keyboard listeners 17:30:41 shepazu: in SVG we have 1) focusable elements and 2) navigtations 17:30:52 jamesn0000 has joined #svg 17:30:53 shepazu: nav has compass directions (up, right, top, down) 17:31:12 s/ancors/anchors/ 17:31:13 shepazu: I belive we had the notion of a navigation order between elements 17:31:29 shepazu: nav-previous and nag-next like a flow 17:31:48 shepazu: I think connectors are more interesting here to connect elements 17:31:58 richardschwerdtfeger: you want users to give a choice where to go next 17:32:10 shepazu: right, nav* are attributes 17:32:38 shepazu: with the REC you can just name the next element or previous but no semantics or descrition 17:32:45 shepazu: connectors could have it 17:32:54 q+ to say you need both 17:33:03 shepazu: lets explore using connectors for that first 17:33:18 shepazu: I think there are cases where the keyboard does not let you navigate correctly 17:33:28 [shepazy gives an example] 17:33:51 ??: there are cases where you need dir and nag and others 17:34:03 ??: there is no linear connection 17:34:13 janna: not everything is a peer 17:34:27 ??: I can show you a dem 17:35:19 shepazu: the focusable attribute… we wanted to do what HTML did, that is why we used tabindex, but focusable is intuitive. 17:35:35 shepazu: and is interesting for annotations with an SVG ntoe 17:35:49 shepazu: or diagrams of building where you select particular rooms 17:36:00 shepazu: so focusabel and connectors seem to be aligned 17:36:13 shepazu: we do not have a selection model for SVG unlike HTML 17:36:20 s/ntoe/drawn musical note/ 17:36:26 shepazu: and we should have a selection model 17:36:53 richardschwerdtfeger: what is the time frame for SVG 17:36:53 2 17:36:58 RRSAgent, draft minutes 17:36:58 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-svg-minutes.html Cyril 17:37:14 shepazu: we should have a more aggressive time frame 17:37:27 richardschwerdtfeger: it might take us a bit longer 17:37:45 richardschwerdtfeger: we get tabindex is good for some SVG content 17:38:05 richardschwerdtfeger: but more complex examples need more 17:38:29 jamesn0000: there are different kind of connectors, like grouping connectors and so on 17:38:47 jamesn0000: you get siblings, traditional connectors and a bunch of other 17:39:02 RRSAgent, make logs public 17:39:23 shepazu: yes, In my model there are super graphs with hierarchies 17:39:31 jamesn0000: yes, that is kind of how we do it 17:40:09 shepazu: some things should be moveable in any order you want and somethings just need special connectors 17:40:28 shepazu: I think this all stuff we can talk about in the context of connectors. 17:41:16 krit: this is something that we need to discuss more and in more detail in the future 17:41:35 shepazu: maybe implementations don’t want to implement connectors so this is all high level at the moment 17:42:28 rich: I want to know who is interested in joining 17:43:19 fetsch: what is the scope? Does it include color aspects or just blind users? 17:43:40 shepazu: what does distinguish mean for you? 17:44:10 ??: for and background color / contrast is important but doesn’t require anything in the spec but the authors 17:44:20 (Btw, cool contrast-ratio app: https://leaverou.github.io/contrast-ratio/) 17:44:25 s/??/Cims/ 17:44:43 shepazu: we should talk about authoring guidelines 17:44:55 shepazu: we bring that to you (PF) 17:45:07 shepazu: and we won’t revisit in the SVG WG 17:45:24 cims: SVG just doesn’t have the technique to support it 17:45:50 cims: like alternative for colors and so on and we should figure out what really is needed technically in SVG 17:46:57 cims: the mechanisms shouldn’t be different but the actual usages can be different 17:47:12 shepazu: we want to have a spec that gives accessibility to SVG but we should have it as an external document. 17:47:26 krit: agre 17:47:27 e 17:47:39 rich: this would be non-normative? 17:47:47 shepazu: we could normatively require it 17:47:52 shepazu: lets talk about that more 17:48:23 shepazu: I think we need focus, selectability, navigation stuff 17:48:47 krit how would selectability look like in SVG? 17:48:58 shepazu: I can’t right now, but SVG 1.1 has at least text selection 17:50:26 fesch: I want to present some navigation charts to show what we do at IBM and where we want to go with SVG 17:51:41 kurosawa has joined #svg 17:52:53 janna: I think we should take a minute to disucss what we want to say the HTML WG 17:53:35 rich: Some semantics is done in script, HTML and CSS 17:53:45 rich: they can give semantics 17:53:54 fesch: also for Canvas? 17:54:02 rich: that would be fine to have 17:54:32 rich: I think there is a lot of overlap with what the SVG and HTML WG want to do 17:55:04 kurosawa_ has joined #svg 17:55:31 ShaneM has joined #svg 17:56:28 rich: we want to provide some kind of role and what ever gets into HTML should go to SVG as well 17:56:56 krit as long as it goes to Element object, then it is in SVG as well 17:56:58 role reflection, getComputedRole and getComputedLabel 17:57:53 rich: We are almost at the point where title element and so on is getting rather difficult. 17:58:19 rich: for tools it would be great to have labels on elements beside 17:58:47 <krit> rich: a lot of the things we do for HTML, SVG, CSS we want to unify 17:59:15 <krit> s/rich/richardschwerdtfeger/g 18:04:21 <jcraig> jcraig has joined #svg 18:06:11 <adenilson_> adenilson_ has joined #svg 18:07:36 <jcraig> q? 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