IRC log of shapes on 2014-10-30

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:14:03 [RRSAgent]: RRSAgent has joined #shapes
15:14:03 [RRSAgent]: logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-shapes-irc
15:14:08 [ericP]: Zakim, this will be shapes
15:14:08 [Zakim]: I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, ericP
15:14:17 [ericP]: Zakim, show conferences
15:14:17 [Zakim]: I don't understand 'show conferences', ericP
15:16:13 [ericP]: Zakim, space for 10 for 540 minutes?
15:16:15 [Zakim]: ok, ericP; conference Team_(shapes)15:16Z scheduled with code 26633 (CONF3) for 540 minutes until 0016Z
15:17:37 [BartvanLeeuwen]: BartvanLeeuwen has joined #shapes
15:28:26 [Arnaud]: Arnaud has joined #shapes
15:30:29 [hknublau]: hknublau has joined #shapes
15:30:43 [Arnaud]: Arnaud has changed the topic to: RDF Data Shapes WG: https://www.w3.org/2014/data-shapes/wiki/Main_Page - Next meeting agenda: https://www.w3.org/2014/data-shapes/wiki/F2F1#Thursday
15:30:53 [Arnaud]: Arnaud has changed the topic to: RDF Data Shapes WG: https://www.w3.org/2014/data-shapes/wiki/Main_Page - Today's meeting agenda: https://www.w3.org/2014/data-shapes/wiki/F2F1#Thursday
15:31:04 [Arnaud]: hello there
15:31:13 [Arnaud]: we're still waiting for people to show up
15:31:31 [Arnaud]: trackbot, start meeting
15:31:33 [trackbot]: RRSAgent, make logs 252
15:31:35 [trackbot]: Zakim, this will be
15:31:35 [Zakim]: I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
15:31:36 [trackbot]: Meeting: RDF Data Shapes Working Group Teleconference
15:31:36 [trackbot]: Date: 30 October 2014
15:31:49 [Arnaud]: RRSAgent, make logs public
15:32:14 [Arnaud]: RRSAgent, this meeting spans midnight
15:33:03 [Arnaud]: zakim, this is shapes
15:33:03 [Zakim]: Arnaud, I see Team_(shapes)15:16Z in the schedule but not yet started. Perhaps you mean "this will be shapes".
15:33:11 [Arnaud]: zakim, who's here?
15:33:11 [Zakim]: Team_(shapes)15:16Z has not yet started, Arnaud
15:33:12 [Zakim]: On IRC I see hknublau, Arnaud, BartvanLeeuwen, RRSAgent, Zakim, Anamitra, jimkont, betehess, ericP, trackbot
15:34:13 [Arnaud]: zakim, call suite1435
15:34:13 [Zakim]: ok, Arnaud; the call is being made
15:34:14 [Zakim]: Team_(shapes)15:16Z has now started
15:34:15 [Zakim]: +Suite1435
15:34:31 [AxelPolleres]: AxelPolleres has joined #shapes
15:34:42 [Anamitra]: do you have the call-in number?
15:35:01 [Arnaud]: zakim, this is 26633
15:35:01 [Zakim]: Arnaud, this was already Team_(shapes)15:16Z
15:35:02 [Zakim]: ok, Arnaud; that matches Team_(shapes)15:16Z
15:35:03 [simonstey]: simonstey has joined #shapes
15:35:14 [Arnaud]: anamitra, that's the code: 26633
15:35:42 [pfps]: pfps has joined #shapes
15:35:50 [Anamitra]: I am sorry is there a 800/888 # ?
15:36:12 [Zakim]: -Suite1435
15:36:14 [Zakim]: Team_(shapes)15:16Z has ended
15:36:14 [Zakim]: Attendees were Suite1435
15:36:22 [rhiaro_]: rhiaro_ has joined #shapes
15:36:30 [Zakim]: Team_(shapes)15:16Z has now started
15:36:35 [pfps]: no 800 number for Zakim, however there are numbers in various countries
15:36:37 [Zakim]: +EricP
15:36:43 [Arnaud]: Zakim teleconference bridge (+1.617.761.6200) with a code of 26633#.
15:37:12 [Nick]: Nick has joined #shapes
15:37:21 [Anamitra]: thanks
15:37:28 [Zakim]: +??P7
15:37:31 [Arnaud]: zakim, who's on?
15:37:31 [Zakim]: I don't understand your question, Arnaud.
15:37:41 [Arnaud]: zakim, who's on the phone/
15:37:41 [Zakim]: I don't understand 'who's on the phone/', Arnaud
15:37:50 [Arnaud]: zakim, who's on the phone?
15:37:50 [Zakim]: On the phone I see EricP, ??P7
15:38:00 [simonstey]: i'll be a few minutes late
15:38:04 [Zakim]: + +1.978.899.aaaa
15:38:05 [Arnaud]: zakim, call suite1435
15:38:06 [Zakim]: ok, Arnaud; the call is being made
15:38:06 [Zakim]: +Suite1435
15:38:23 [AxelPolleres]: Zakim, ??P7 is probably me
15:38:23 [Zakim]: +AxelPolleres?; got it
15:38:42 [pfps]: zakim, who is on the phone?
15:38:42 [Zakim]: On the phone I see EricP, AxelPolleres?, +1.978.899.aaaa, Suite1435 (muted)
15:38:54 [Anamitra]: 978.899.aaaa - Anamitra
15:39:23 [Zakim]: +[IPcaller]
15:40:05 [Zakim]: -EricP
15:40:15 [Zakim]: -AxelPolleres?
15:40:48 [fgandon]: fgandon has joined #shapes
15:41:44 [AxelPolleres_]: AxelPolleres_ has joined #shapes
15:43:39 [Anamitra]: I am on phone
15:45:37 [ericP]: topic: introductions
15:45:43 [AxelPolleres]: scribe: AxelPolleres
15:45:53 [AxelPolleres]: self introductions...
15:46:13 [ericP]: ericP: ericP, W3C staff contact
15:46:18 [ericP]: scribenick: ericP
15:46:33 [ericP]: AxelPolleres: Axel Polleres, university of @@1
15:46:35 [pfps]: pfps has joined #shapes
15:46:40 [AxelPolleres]: EricP (W3C), Axel (WU), David Martin (Nuance), Arnaud (IBM, chair), PPFS (Nuance),
15:46:56 [AxelPolleres]: … Nick Crossley (IBM)
15:47:13 [ericP]: scribenick: AxelPolleres
15:47:36 [AxelPolleres]: … Fabien Gandon (INRIA)
15:48:19 [AxelPolleres]: … Amy Guy (Univ. Edinburgh)
15:48:36 [AxelPolleres]: more on the phone…
15:49:07 [AxelPolleres]: Anamitra (IBM),
15:49:22 [AxelPolleres]: … Holger Knublauch (TopQuadrant)
15:50:13 [AxelPolleres]: Arnaud: no one else on the phone
15:50:13 [Arnaud]: zakim, who's on the phone?
15:50:13 [Zakim]: On the phone I see +1.978.899.aaaa, Suite1435, [IPcaller]
15:50:35 [Anamitra]: +1.978.899.aaaa = @Anamitra
15:50:43 [Arnaud]: zakim, aaaa is Anamitra
15:50:44 [AxelPolleres]: … Ralph Hodgson (TopQuadrant) also arrived in the room.
15:50:44 [Zakim]: +Anamitra; got it
15:51:29 [AxelPolleres]: Arnaud: need good planning with the meeting, discussed before with EricP
15:51:46 [AxelPolleres]: … working on use cases and requirements is the most important
15:52:44 [AxelPolleres]: … other WGs are chartered with a fairly well-defined direction, in our case, see the discussion on the mailinglist: we watered down the open ended charter in order to make it acceptable.
15:53:17 [AxelPolleres]: s/watered down the open ended charter/made the charter more neutral/
15:54:16 [AxelPolleres]: … people in the room with different assumptions, but we should come in with a fresh mind, need to agree whatthe problem is, have one solution in the end.
15:55:02 [AxelPolleres]: … fix terminology to understand each other, that’s the goal of this meeting, plus learn about each other.
15:55:40 [simonstey]: simonstey has joined #shapes
15:56:25 [AxelPolleres]: … my reading of the mailinglist shows that people have certain use cases in mind, but it’s not yet agreed in the group.
15:56:46 [AxelPolleres]: … eric will give us an overview of the current “space”.
15:58:03 [AxelPolleres]: … agenda for today, get an overview, sort out what are the low-hanging fruit, what can we tackle.
15:58:52 [AxelPolleres]: … for eric’s talk, please let’s refrain for debate for the moment, but let’s focus on just clarifications.
16:00:53 [AxelPolleres]: Ralph: can offer facilities for screensharing
16:01:10 [rhiaro__]: rhiaro__ has joined #shapes
16:01:12 [AxelPolleres]: Arnaud: we make sure to let people on the phone what slides we’re on.
16:01:45 [AxelPolleres]: ericP: we can use talky.io, check it in the break
16:02:04 [AxelPolleres]: ericP starting the presentation
16:02:14 [AxelPolleres]: Arnaud: please use the queue
16:02:19 [simonstey]: is there a way to connect to the telefonbridge via sip?
16:03:00 [AxelPolleres]: Karen Coyle (DC) also joining the meeting.
16:03:33 [Arnaud]: sip:zakim@voip.w3.org
16:04:09 [Zakim]: +??P12
16:04:10 [AxelPolleres]: ericP: explaining the motivation, we want to describe the interface, i.e. graphs that are “allowed” that’s effectively validation.
16:04:36 [simonstey]: zakim, +??P12 is me
16:04:36 [Zakim]: sorry, simonstey, I do not recognize a party named '+??P12'
16:04:48 [AxelPolleres]: Zakim, ??P12 is simonstey
16:04:48 [Zakim]: +simonstey; got it
16:05:26 [AxelPolleres]: ericp: slide 2
16:05:26 [simonstey]: http://www.w3.org/2014/Talks/1030-shapes-egp
16:06:16 [AxelPolleres]: ericP: errors would be e.g. date constraints, typos, etc. motivation is to catch such errors
16:07:10 [AxelPolleres]: … Orri Erling mentioned to me that he was looking for something like this for optimization purposes.
16:07:45 [AxelPolleres]: … competing with the SQL constraints world, XML Schema languages, in some sense
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16:08:31 [AxelPolleres]: … in conventional data ontologies are separate from constraints.
16:09:10 [AxelPolleres]: … other languages, eg. OSLC keeps constraints separate.
16:09:48 [AxelPolleres]: … party invitees or patients might have different constaints on foaf:Person data.
16:10:40 [AxelPolleres]: … objects of some properties could be sometimes strings or objects (e.g. dc:creator).
16:11:11 [AxelPolleres]: … we want the ability to descibe/accept that inour constraint language.
16:11:32 [AxelPolleres]: … another example is enumerated sets for values.
16:12:31 [AxelPolleres]: … substrings, regexps for literal values,
16:12:53 [AxelPolleres]: … certain sets of values with an exception list of disallowed values.
16:13:19 [AxelPolleres]: … schema.org does not use intersection of domains (as e.g. rdfs:domain/range do).
16:13:32 [AxelPolleres]: … probably union
16:13:48 [AxelPolleres]: pfps: it’s undefined in schema.org
16:14:25 [AxelPolleres]: ericP: objectproperties aren’t strict, can be literals in schema.org … so schema.org is different from the RDFS.. world
16:14:48 [AxelPolleres]: …existing technilogies include SPARQL, SPIN, etc.
16:15:42 [AxelPolleres]: Ralph: firstly, we need a reporting schema, secondly, we need relaxation rules
16:16:43 [AxelPolleres]: EricP: I can write enforcement of min/max cardinalities in SPARQL ASK queries.
16:17:07 [AxelPolleres]: … either explicitly or compile it from something more high-level.
16:17:28 [AxelPolleres]: … there’s various differnent ways to write SPARQL queries that are equivalent.
16:18:05 [AxelPolleres]: … instead of ASK queries, you could also qrite queries that give you an error.
16:19:42 [AxelPolleres]: … slide 7, the system by Simister, Brickley is simpler, e.g. doesn’t allow cardinality constraints, is still idiomatic, used by google-folks, but not endorsed.
16:20:11 [AxelPolleres]: … slide 8, SPIN… essentiually SPARQL in RDF
16:21:51 [AxelPolleres]: … slide 9 has a turtle graph with constraints in SPIN
16:22:36 [AxelPolleres]: … can “parameterize” the queries and add rules, SPARQL CONSTRUCT, still a declarative model.
16:23:10 [AxelPolleres]: … underspecific rdf:type arcs are problematic.
16:23:33 [AxelPolleres]: Ralph: you can do subsumption in the rule attached to the constraint.
16:23:48 [hknublau]: (or use named graphs to keep contexts separate)
16:24:08 [AxelPolleres]: ericP: slide 10, OWL, growing community understanding OWL, small commmunity what OWL in open world means.
16:24:24 [AxelPolleres]: … e.g. OWL can’t ever tail you whether a minCard constraint failed.
16:25:06 [AxelPolleres]: … slide 11: OWL reinterpreted as closed world.
16:25:09 [AxelPolleres]: q+
16:25:36 [AxelPolleres]: AxelPolleres: Is that the same that PelletIC does?
16:26:02 [AxelPolleres]: pfps: now startdog, stardogIC is the implementation of this.
16:26:45 [AxelPolleres]: … foundation is any OWL axiom can be read as constraint/translated into SPARQL.
16:26:57 [Arnaud]: ack AxelPolleres
16:26:58 [AxelPolleres]: ack me
16:27:35 [AxelPolleres]: DavidMartin: any path for standardization for this?
16:28:06 [AxelPolleres]: pfps: RPI no W3C memberat the moment, the IP would be theirs.
16:28:44 [AxelPolleres]: Arnaud: evren sirin presented this in our workshop, but didn’t push on broad adoption/standardization of it.
16:29:05 [AxelPolleres]: … but later it came up again during charteing process.
16:29:29 [pfps]: my comments on other's IP cannot be taken to be authoritative
16:29:47 [AxelPolleres]: Ralph: if you stay in the RDF/SPARQL world things get ttreated differently.
16:30:56 [AxelPolleres]: AxelPolleres: Would it be interpreting OWL as SPARQL queries under OWL entailment as per SPARQL1.1 spec?
16:31:07 [AxelPolleres]: pfps: rather RDFS entailment regime
16:31:34 [AxelPolleres]: AxelPolleres: that’s not something probably we can just take off-the-shelf.
16:31:52 [AxelPolleres]: pfps: does the IC implementation cover corner-cases?
16:32:05 [AxelPolleres]: … think stadog does RDFS completely, not sure.
16:32:18 [AxelPolleres]: s/stadog/stardog/
16:32:39 [AxelPolleres]: ericP: kendall proposes to use manchester syntax.
16:32:41 [pfps]: s/stadog/Stardog/ - not StarDog
16:33:16 [AxelPolleres]: … on the plus side this is what many people understand when reading OWL axioms.
16:33:36 [AxelPolleres]: … on the other side no things such as date comparison or complex builtin functions, etc.
16:34:23 [AxelPolleres]: Holger: about slide 12… SPIN ressoucre shapes is just SPIN templates
16:34:42 [AxelPolleres]: ericP: slide 12 is SPIN as templates
16:36:08 [AxelPolleres]: … for something complex like date constraints, we need extensions of that.
16:37:05 [AxelPolleres]: … slide 13 Shape expressions
16:37:55 [AxelPolleres]: … mix of languages.
16:38:59 [AxelPolleres]: … Z notation.
16:39:49 [AxelPolleres]: … I added things like ‘or’, semantic actions, not too much takeup yet.
16:40:08 [AxelPolleres]: … has a defined extensibility mechanism.
16:41:16 [AxelPolleres]: slide 14 several of the introduced approaches for one consistent example… should all capture the same intuition.
16:42:49 [AxelPolleres]: ericP: issues slide 15 e.g. interaction with reasoning.
16:44:04 [AxelPolleres]: … exmple of IinverseFunctionalProperty in that slide.
16:44:29 [AxelPolleres]: … shows there are cases where you want inferencing before validation.
16:46:35 [AxelPolleres]: … XML schema is much clearer about type annotation.
16:46:52 [AxelPolleres]: … a lot of the magic in Xquery comes fro mthe avility to statically check types.
16:47:19 [AxelPolleres]: s/fro mthe av/from the ab/
16:48:24 [AxelPolleres]: … question whether we want to support anything that adds stuff (rules? owl inference?) on validation.
16:49:55 [AxelPolleres]: … SPARQL regular expressions are much more limited than Perl/PHP reg exps.
16:50:32 [AxelPolleres]: … talking about http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unique_Particle_Attribution
16:51:25 [AxelPolleres]: … more achallenge for XML Schema than for regexps.
16:52:04 [SumitPurohit_]: SumitPurohit_ has joined #shapes
16:52:33 [AxelPolleres]: … context-free = per property/object, context-sensitive = per property/objects in a certain context
16:52:53 [AxelPolleres]: … questions!
16:54:11 [AxelPolleres]: Arnaud: advice from the XML Schema community: be creful what you allow, it might blow up.
16:54:23 [sandro]: sandro has joined #shapes
16:54:26 [AxelPolleres]: q+
16:54:36 [simonstey]: s/creful/careful
16:54:44 [sandro]: q+ tim
16:55:17 [AxelPolleres]: Michel Dumontier: just entered the room (short self intro)
16:55:36 [AxelPolleres]: … we would like to use Shapes
16:55:52 [AxelPolleres]: timbl: just entered the room
16:55:55 [AxelPolleres]: q+ ralph
16:56:22 [Arnaud]: ack tim
16:56:40 [AxelPolleres]: timbl: do be minimalist, but then don’t take a long time
16:56:47 [Arnaud]: ack AxelPolleres
16:58:38 [Arnaud]: ack ralph
16:59:16 [AxelPolleres]: AxelPolleres: my questions…
16:59:28 [AxelPolleres]: … 1. often needs rules/views to make it easy to write constraints more concisely
16:59:28 [AxelPolleres]: … 2. vs. ASSERTION/CHECK … we have no distinction between tuple-“borders”.\
16:59:30 [AxelPolleres]: … 3. something in the JSON space we need to look at? is there schema-languages for JSON(-LD)?
16:59:31 [AxelPolleres]: … 4. when should those constaint be checked (UPDATE)
16:59:31 [AxelPolleres]: … 5. what about updateing constraints? what does it mean?
16:59:56 [AxelPolleres]: Ralph: the beauty of RDF/SW is that we can query data along with the model.
17:01:11 [fgandon]: Ralph: should shape be queryable? e.g. SPIN allows reflecting on the constraints and querying them
17:01:38 [Zakim]: -Anamitra
17:01:41 [AxelPolleres]: AxelPolleres has joined #shapes
17:01:58 [AxelPolleres]: Sandro Hawke also joined the room/meeting
17:20:41 [sandro]: hknublau, try going to https://talky.io/shapes
17:26:57 [AxelPolleres]: AxelPolleres has joined #shapes
17:28:14 [AxelPolleres]: thought this might be interesting/related somehow… http://www.aaai.org/ocs/index.php/AAAI/AAAI14/paper/viewFile/8487/8531
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17:32:15 [kcoyle]: scribe:kcoyle
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17:33:44 [kcoyle]: After break: 10:30
17:33:55 [Zakim]: -simonstey
17:34:10 [kcoyle]: Dean allemang introduces himself
17:34:25 [Nick]: Nick has joined #shapes
17:34:35 [Zakim]: +??P1
17:34:55 [simonstey]: Zakim, +??P1 is probably me
17:34:55 [Zakim]: sorry, simonstey, I do not understand your question
17:35:02 [simonstey]: Zakim, +??P1 is simonstey
17:35:02 [Zakim]: sorry, simonstey, I do not recognize a party named '+??P1'
17:35:09 [kcoyle]: On screen Hierarchical view of DC requirements for RDF Validation: EricP's version
17:35:54 [kcoyle]: DC has begun use cases and requirements
17:36:34 [kcoyle]: looks overwhelming; but Eric has grouped the requirements
17:36:41 [Zakim]: +Anamitra
17:37:18 [simonstey]: Zakim, ??P1 is simonstey
17:37:18 [Zakim]: +simonstey; got it
17:37:24 [kcoyle]: Go through Eric's "small group" to see if we can come up with a core
17:38:29 [ericP]: kcoyle: Dublin Core decided to work on RDF validation.
17:38:45 [ericP]: ... relates to past (pre-RDF) work on "applications profiles".
17:38:50 [deiu]: deiu has joined #shapes
17:38:53 [ericP]: ... it was never heavily used.
17:39:17 [ericP]: ... the DC RDF Validation WG started a couple months ago.
17:39:31 [ericP]: ... Thomas Bosch had already created a database. We adopted it.
17:39:58 [fabien-gandon]: fabien-gandon has joined #shapes
17:39:59 [ericP]: ... We created a subset called the "Dublinc Core" reqs from Europeana and a couple other things.
17:40:27 [ericP]: ... You can view the DC reqs in the database [look on the far right next to requirements]
17:40:44 [ericP]: ... We are winnowing the list down, e.g. "cardinality"
17:41:02 [ericP]: ... DB is in Drupal. is continuously updated.
17:41:16 [Nick]: Nick has joined #shapes
17:41:32 [ericP]: dean: [re XML baggage]
17:41:40 [michel]: michel has joined #shapes
17:41:51 [ericP]: ... folks are using XSD over OWL/XML
17:42:13 [ericP]: ... has a good pedigree, fits in stacks. there's a baby in that bathwater.
17:42:50 [ericP]: kcoyle: the "baggage" i referred to is not that it's XML; it's that it's based the dublin core abstract model.
17:43:26 [kcoyle]: ericP: showing the database (his)
17:43:29 [sandro]: kcoyle: THey use "non-literal value surrogate" instead of "object"
17:43:50 [kcoyle]: added in the requirements form the validation workshop last year
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17:44:23 [ericP]: -> http://www.w3.org/2014/10/rdfvalreqs/?+GDCAP-small#reqs "small" reqs
17:44:23 [Arnaud]: http://www.w3.org/2014/10/rdfvalreqs/?+Gsmall
17:44:44 [AxelPolleres]: +q to mention work about RDF normal forms (whenever it fits)
17:45:03 [kcoyle]: ericP: suggests we got through small first, to see if we can get agreement
17:46:01 [DavidM]: DavidM has joined #shapes
17:46:39 [hknublau]: +q
17:46:55 [kcoyle]: pfps: concern that we are looking at requirements before doing use cases
17:46:58 [ralphtq]: +q
17:46:59 [Arnaud]: ack AxelPolleres
17:46:59 [Zakim]: AxelPolleres, you wanted to mention work about RDF normal forms (whenever it fits)
17:47:33 [DeanAllemang]: DeanAllemang has joined #shapes
17:47:55 [kcoyle]: AxelPolleres: put a link in irc to a paper comparing relational model and rdf; this could be a use case
17:48:13 [kcoyle]: ... e.g. foreign key constraints, etc.
17:48:39 [kcoyle]: ... we should think about it
17:49:30 [kcoyle]: ericP: there is another hierarchy in the DC database
17:50:45 [ericP]: -> http://lelystad.informatik.uni-mannheim.de/rdf-validation/?q=case-studies case studies
17:50:50 [AxelPolleres]: q?
17:51:49 [AxelPolleres]: would extending R2RML to SQL constraints be a use case for us?
17:52:08 [Arnaud]: ack hknublau
17:52:13 [ericP]: -> http://lelystad.informatik.uni-mannheim.de/rdf-validation/?q=CS-4-EUROPEANA-DATA-MODEL-EDM Europeana Use Case
17:52:16 [AxelPolleres]: (I guess that summarizes my question best)
17:53:25 [DeanAllemang]: We can't hear Holger at all when he really has amnything interesting to say :)
17:55:22 [kcoyle]: Holger: believes requirements started as DC requirements; additional ones were added. Shouldn't call them DC. Examples called SPIN should be called SPARQL requirements.
17:55:27 [DeanAllemang]: No, he always talks that way :)
17:56:15 [kcoyle]: ... thinks we can agree on minimum profile (small set) -- one way to define a minimum language is to list rquirements; another way
17:56:26 [kcoyle]: ... is to define it as SPIN
17:56:56 [kcoyle]: ... no extensibility in what is here, and this is the most important requirement
17:57:09 [kcoyle]: ... minimum profile should not be the only outcome of this working group
17:57:18 [sandro]: q?
17:57:29 [kcoyle]: Arnaud: this is just a starting point; this is not where we will stop
17:58:10 [Arnaud]: ack ralphtq
17:58:15 [kcoyle]: ericP: agrees they should be called sparql; SPIN templates are same as Shapes
17:58:50 [kcoyle]: ralphtq: Process point: upstreeam from use cases are customer needs; "solution envisioning" begins way before use cases/case studies
17:59:28 [kcoyle]: ... expression of need/pain. wants to divvy things up into needs
17:59:59 [kcoyle]: ... use cases too far down stream
18:00:39 [kcoyle]: Arnaud: this is an important point; open to this; we can backtrack
18:01:26 [kcoyle]: ... we did this on a shared pad at the validation workshop; then we re-organized it all.
18:01:37 [ericP]: hknublau, i just s/SPIN/SPARQL/'d. reload.
18:01:42 [michel]: q+
18:01:50 [Arnaud]: ack michel
18:02:20 [hknublau]: @ericP thanks!
18:02:44 [kcoyle]: michel: needs framework for what information is required from his group to articulate their requirements
18:02:54 [Arnaud]: ack DeanAllemang
18:03:39 [kcoyle]: DeanAllemang: for those who haven't been in discussion, a story-telling session would be helpful; stories could be discussed in terms of relevance
18:04:07 [ericP]: q+ "we should dive deep for a moment"
18:04:13 [ericP]: q+ to say "we should dive deep for a moment"
18:04:33 [kcoyle]: Arnaud: use q system
18:04:41 [kcoyle]: ericP: go through a few to help us tell our stories
18:04:46 [Arnaud]: ack ericP
18:04:46 [Zakim]: ericP, you wanted to say "we should dive deep for a moment"
18:05:15 [kcoyle]: ericP: small group of requirements:
18:05:43 [kcoyle]: ... high level requirements
18:05:48 [ericP]: -> http://www.w3.org/2014/10/rdfvalreqs/?+Gsmall#reqs "small" reqs
18:06:00 [kcoyle]: ericP: to help us tell stories
18:06:12 [kcoyle]: ... high level from workshop and DC
18:06:20 [kcoyle]: ... language should be higher level than sparql
18:06:42 [kcoyle]: ... under that: basic use cases covered by a constraint language implicit extension
18:06:50 [kcoyle]: ... high level vocab for common cases
18:06:58 [kcoyle]: ... constrains for different uses don't conflict
18:07:22 [kcoyle]: ... syntax: concise language
18:07:28 [kcoyle]: ... extensibility
18:08:25 [kcoyle]: Arnaud: extensibility was outcome of workshop; so,ething easy that does the 80-20, but can be extended for corner cases
18:08:56 [kcoyle]: ericP: bar for extensivility not high
18:09:06 [kcoyle]: ... addressable schemas & addressable constraints
18:09:19 [kcoyle]: ... be able to re-use constraints and have stable constraint identifiers
18:10:25 [kcoyle]: ... ui generation - this is above what you get from RS or OWL; will require ordering of constraints
18:10:29 [pfps]: q+
18:10:38 [Anamitra]: We do that same (generating UI and validation code in js) in IBM (C&SI) - using Rsource Shapes
18:10:44 [Arnaud]: ack pfps
18:11:25 [kcoyle]: pfps: this seems to be a different kind of thing - language should be higher than sparql, then we have a use case for how it fits
18:12:03 [kcoyle]: ericP: foundation: schemas aren't in ontologies = schemas are separable from ontologies
18:12:38 [kcoyle]: ... don't put constraints in vocabularies - leads to problem
18:13:03 [kcoyle]: pfps: could conclude that the only thing you have in an ontology is a listing of terms
18:13:32 [kcoyle]: ericP: owl ontology is talking about something different in terms of constraints
18:14:19 [kcoyle]: ralphtq: uses graphs; schema needs an adjective before it as does graph; need to pin down the word ontology
18:14:30 [Arnaud]: ack DeanAllemang
18:15:04 [kcoyle]: DeanAllemang: confirms that stories and use cases fall into two categories: data comes out good/bad. the other is expectation control
18:16:11 [Anamitra]: q+
18:16:30 [Arnaud]: ack Anamitra
18:17:22 [Nick]: Nick has joined #shapes
18:18:29 [Anamitra]: in RDF we have resources refer to a network of resources - ideally I would like the constraint language for these resources refer to each other
18:18:35 [kcoyle]: ericP: at separation of constraints and onto semantics
18:18:57 [kcoyle]: ... RDF target constructs - probably want to talk about triples and graphs
18:19:09 [kcoyle]: ... a lot based on language tags
18:20:02 [kcoyle]: DeanAllemang: that sounds like SKOS functionality; SKOS may have been translated to SPIN (ask Ralph later)
18:20:12 [DeanAllemang]: SKOS constraints have been expressed in SPIN. I don't know what percentage of the constraints were expressible.
18:20:21 [hknublau]: Yes, we have implemented all SKOS constraints with SPIN.
18:20:38 [DeanAllemang]: I thought so - I wasn't sure if you made it to 100%
18:20:46 [kcoyle]: ericP: Expressivity: or pattern, and pattern; original db had more detail
18:21:22 [kcoyle]: ... lexical patterns - catch date/time errors; something must be of a certain datatype (Peter; value for predicate has to belong to...)
18:22:22 [kcoyle]: AxelPolleres: also need a negative
18:22:49 [DeanAllemang]: Value Sets are important in finance reference data as well.
18:23:06 [kcoyle]: ericP: value sets: value must be assigned or unassigned
18:23:25 [AxelPolleres]: AxelPolleres: you can us FILTER( … IN … ) for enumerations
18:23:44 [kcoyle]: ... cardinality: option, one or more, zero or more, but what about between 2 and 5? or bigger than one?
18:25:03 [kcoyle]: ... have to decide if any minimum or maximum, or if there are a limited number of choices
18:25:29 [AxelPolleres]: +q going back to SQL constraint and their coverage.
18:25:44 [AxelPolleres]: It looks to me that the requirement to capture contraints coming from relational data are not entirelty captured here (i) CHECK (comparison/boolean expression on values attached to a resource), (ii) NOT NULL, UNIQUE (as special cases of (inverse) cardinalities?) (iii) REFERENCES/FOREIGN KEY (the question is with what to parameterize this… with a SPARQL query again?) … should IMO be covered, How about multi-attribute FOREIGN KEYs?
18:25:59 [kcoyle]: ... protocol/invocation - does a class fire off validation? closed shapes - things can have only the listed properties, or if it can be an open shape
18:26:05 [Arnaud]: q?
18:26:40 [kcoyle]: ... associated constraints with particular datasets and associating with rest apis
18:26:59 [DeanAllemang]: There are also privacy / entitlement issues about "closed shapes" - we don't allow spurious triples in to our data set, in case this is part of some elaborate attack.
18:27:04 [hknublau]: @Axel I agree we should cover primary keys
18:27:15 [kcoyle]: ... implementability: how hard is it to implement the language? = has to be reducible to sparql, but cannot do recursion
18:27:17 [Anamitra]: correction: Resource Shapes is schema for RDF data - not WSDL
18:27:32 [Zakim]: -[IPcaller]
18:27:36 [ralphtq]: +q
18:27:52 [kcoyle]: ... huge call for validation with sparql
18:28:41 [michel]: +q
18:28:45 [SumitPurohit]: SumitPurohit has joined #shapes
18:28:50 [AxelPolleres]: q+
18:28:51 [hknublau_]: hknublau_ has joined #shapes
18:28:54 [Arnaud]: ack ralphtq
18:29:19 [kcoyle]: ralphtq: does recursion using spin; but not sparql
18:29:21 [Arnaud]: ack DeanAllemang
18:30:42 [kcoyle]: DeanAllemang: Another kind of requirement: "OWL is a dirty world" why? How many new technologies do you make users learn? "relationship capital"
18:31:38 [kcoyle]: ... = social capital" - costs a lot to bring in anything new; "adoption barrier"
18:31:58 [kcoyle]: ... requirement: can get it adopted - "adoptability"
18:32:33 [Zakim]: +[IPcaller]
18:33:03 [SumitPurohit]: Hi All, I am Sumit Purohit. Trying to connect remotely...IS "742737#" valid code ?
18:33:15 [kcoyle]: Arnaud: "try to keep it simple"
18:33:19 [Arnaud]: ack michel
18:33:40 [simonstey]: 26633#
18:33:46 [simonstey]: @sumit
18:33:56 [Zakim]: + +1.509.372.aabb
18:33:58 [kcoyle]: michel: language should be concise, but not so concise as to be arcane; and should be familiar to existing practioners; comprehensible
18:33:59 [SumitPurohit]: got it...Thanks
18:33:59 [Arnaud]: ack AxelPolleres
18:34:19 [SumitPurohit]: Thanks @simonstey
18:35:01 [kcoyle]: AxelPolleres: add to cover relational database data requirements? surface language may need relational requirements
18:35:20 [kcoyle]: ... unqiueness isn't there
18:36:19 [kcoyle]: ... references, foreign keys... can these be covered? for RDBMS to RDF (and reverse) should make these simple to do
18:36:35 [ralphtq]: +q
18:36:44 [Arnaud]: ack ralphtq
18:37:22 [kcoyle]: ralphtq: what is a good story? protagonist, revelation of pain point, a challenge or barrier, and a happy ending :)
18:37:30 [Arnaud]: ack DeanAllemang
18:38:09 [kcoyle]: DeanAllemang: protagonists: modelling team; pain point: because it's a new tech, people say "the model is broken" -- what does that mean?
18:39:46 [kcoyle]: ... sometimes it does mean that the model is broken; need to run the model through tests
18:40:29 [kcoyle]: ... resolution: need a standard way to test and validate
18:42:10 [kcoyle]: pfps: you're saying that the documents you want to validate are representations of the models themselves
18:43:26 [kcoyle]: [people start speaking sparql and rdfs -- oh let's move on]
18:43:59 [michel]: q+
18:45:07 [kcoyle]: pfps: you want to generate a language model; coming into that are many entities; with their types and names
18:45:36 [kcoyle]: ... just saying that an entity has a name not enough: every THING has to be provided a name that is a string
18:46:01 [kcoyle]: ... we don't want to say that there is only one name
18:46:14 [Arnaud]: ack michel
18:46:19 [kcoyle]: michel: we have three main use cases:
18:46:46 [kcoyle]: ... w3c health care group; community profile for data sets
18:47:38 [kcoyle]: ... group each said what data elements they had; these were collected and vocabularies were studies, so people would use the same elements
18:48:44 [kcoyle]: ... argument for interoperability; has usual ones, but have to look at what is in the data itself; discoverability; wanted more documentation; and for the data
18:48:47 [ralphtq]: +q
18:48:50 [kcoyle]: ... to work when aggregated
18:49:01 [Arnaud]: ack ralphtq
18:49:17 [michel]: http://tinyurl.com/hcls-dataset-description
18:49:29 [kcoyle]: ralphtq: owl import - brings in everything or nothing; you are asking to partially import something
18:51:26 [kcoyle]: michel: showing diagram from ttp://tinyurl.com/hcls-dataset-description
18:51:32 [kcoyle]: http://tinyurl.com/hcls-dataset-description
18:52:15 [kcoyle]: michel: need versioning which was not in void; and also didn't have all rdf data sets
18:53:37 [kcoyle]: ... serves as an element guide
18:55:08 [kcoyle]: ... check if identifiers are valid or not; check patterns (regex); url access pattern
18:56:50 [kcoyle]: ralphtq: can be done as mergeable graphs or layers of graphs
18:58:00 [kcoyle]: ericP: different validation levels
18:58:04 [kcoyle]: q+
19:00:08 [kcoyle]: michel: can implement at different levels depending on what data you have and what you can provide
19:01:16 [Arnaud]: ack kcoyle
19:02:55 [Nick]: +q
19:03:58 [Arnaud]: ack Nick
19:05:12 [Zakim]: -Anamitra
19:05:16 [Zakim]: -[IPcaller]
19:05:30 [Zakim]: -simonstey
19:05:55 [SumitPurohit]: what time do we resume ? 1 PM ?
19:06:59 [Zakim]: - +1.509.372.aabb