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16:21:26 <jtauber> elf-pavlik: Ann is setting up now
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16:21:28 <jasnell> for those accessing remotely, we are starting a breakout session discussing schema.org/Actions and AS 2.0 Actions overlap and coordination
16:21:30 <sandro> elf-pavlik, AnnBassetti is doing that
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16:21:59 <Lloyd_Fassett> Sam Goto I work at Google.  We've been working on completed and potential Actions for some time
16:22:01 <AnnBassetti> trying to get there elf ..
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16:22:26 <wseltzer> Meeting: Social Web and schema.org breakout
16:22:27 <Lloyd_Fassett> Sam Goto: past actions are the closed to AS work
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16:22:54 <jtauber> http://blog.sgo.to/2014/09/schemaorg-actions-implementations.html
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16:23:10 <Ralph> Sam cites https://developers.google.com/+/api/moment-types/listen-activity
16:23:26 <Lloyd_Fassett> Sam Goto: aggregation plus past activiteis
16:23:42 <Lloyd_Fassett> Sam Goto: toward potential action in music industry
16:23:52 <AnnBassetti> http://blog.sgo.to/2014/09/schemaorg-actions-implementations.html
16:23:58 <Lloyd_Fassett> query Google with Lady Gaga, which is in KG
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16:24:32 <Lloyd_Fassett> Landing pages have potential actions, in microdata, Google is agnostic, json-LD is good too
16:24:54 <Lloyd_Fassett> from the noun you reach the potential action, which is "Listen"...via going to that URL.
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16:25:07 <Lloyd_Fassett> Sam Goto:  We're designing this for the mobile wb
16:25:10 <Lloyd_Fassett> web
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16:25:47 <Lloyd_Fassett> Sam Goto: demoing launched products...why don't we embed schema markup in Gmails too?
16:25:54 <Lloyd_Fassett> Sam Goto: build rsvp's in line
16:26:11 <Lloyd_Fassett> Sam Goto: markup shown in presentation
16:26:27 <Lloyd_Fassett> Sam Goto: property in noun 'potential action'
16:27:01 <Lloyd_Fassett> Sam Goto: a couple weeks ago we launched search on on SERP pages on Google
16:27:14 <Lloyd_Fassett> Sam Goto:  noun has search action associated with it
16:27:18 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/29-social-minutes.html raphael
16:27:30 <Lloyd_Fassett> Sam Goto: it's a semantic goal, a binding
16:28:09 <Lloyd_Fassett> Sam Goto: Peter: why do we care about so many Google products?
16:28:24 <wseltzer> s/Sam Goto: Peter:/Peter:/
16:28:25 <Lloyd_Fassett> jsnell: yes we do, I can demo deep linking in AS
16:28:25 <Loqi> wseltzer meant to say: Meeting: Social Web and schema.org breakout
16:28:35 <Lloyd_Fassett> Sam Goto: I think I ran out of examples too
16:28:59 <Lloyd_Fassett> Sam Goto: demo's Yandex implementation
16:29:23 <Lloyd_Fassett> James Snell: presenting
16:29:35 <aaronpk> wseltzer: s/././ will regex based on the last thing you said. but doesn't replace other peoples' text
16:29:48 <Lloyd_Fassett> James Snell:Social WG just started up.  I don't care about details of gadgets, but we took the use cases for in context actions
16:30:18 <aaronpk> what is the usual behavior?
16:30:23 <aaronpk> I didn't see anything else in IRC happen
16:30:33 <Lloyd_Fassett> James Snell: what do we basically need? A part of that format lets us represent things through a basic syntax
16:30:37 <AnnBassetti> James Snell: http://tpac.mybluemix.net/as2.html#19
16:30:41 <Lloyd_Fassett> James Snell:and attach actions to it
16:30:59 <Lloyd_Fassett> James Snell:this is very similar to Schema...it's essentially the same model
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16:31:48 <Lloyd_Fassett> James Snell: demo's a REST call.  We can share static content.  Can do a browser view, deep link to a native app in IOS.  The models are close at this point
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16:32:07 <Lloyd_Fassett> James Snell: When we first started working on this a year ago the models were divergent.
16:32:35 <Lloyd_Fassett> James Snell:when I had beers in san Francisco with Sam Goto a year ago it was more different
16:32:58 <Lloyd_Fassett> James Snell: the protocol bits can be similar, without the vocabulary.
16:33:30 <Lloyd_Fassett> James Snell: we can have multiple actions on an object with JSON-LD with a Link Data vocabulary
16:33:39 <Lloyd_Fassett> James Snell: we can describe the payload coming back
16:33:50 <Lloyd_Fassett> James Snell: the technical differences are the vocabulary
16:34:15 <Lloyd_Fassett> Sam Goto: it looks like the Hydra model.  Comparing the two could be constructive
16:34:59 <Lloyd_Fassett> James Snell: Indie Actions, primarily an html based using a custom component
16:35:24 <Lloyd_Fassett> James Snell:when we talked about it yesterday we realized it was similar too.  We're getting a lot of convergence on the models.
16:35:35 <sandro> q?
16:35:48 <Lloyd_Fassett> Harry H: From a data modeling standpoint, Sam can you explain how you came to your process
16:36:04 <Ralph> [James mentions the related work in the -> http://www.w3.org/community/hydra/ Hydra Community Group]
16:36:14 <Lloyd_Fassett> Sam Goto: We asked what is the vocabulary you need to complete an action?
16:36:21 <hadleybeeman> Us there a more recent update on this? http://www.hydra-cg.com/spec/latest/schema.org/
16:36:32 <Lloyd_Fassett> Sam Goto: if you wanted to reserve a hotel room, what do you need to ask?
16:36:51 <Lloyd_Fassett> Sam Goto: Hydra and AS inumerates the input requirements
16:37:03 <Lloyd_Fassett> Sam Goto: it felt awkward for complicated use cases
16:37:18 <Lloyd_Fassett> Sam Goto: how difficult would it be to develop
16:37:49 <Lloyd_Fassett> Sam Goto: Java Abstract Classes are the thing that maps to my skills set.  That's the thing Schema.org went went.
16:38:27 <Lloyd_Fassett> Sam Goto: YOu partially instantiate an abstract class.  We are not married to this approach.  If you have better ideas, we're open to it?
16:38:42 <Lloyd_Fassett> Danbri: How did we do?
16:39:04 <Lloyd_Fassett> Sam Goto: what I like the most is the notiion of attaching an actino to a noun
16:39:37 <Lloyd_Fassett> Sam Goto: You can share without knowing what you're sharing.  Start with a noun and attach a verb to it.
16:39:56 <Lloyd_Fassett> (person) is this fire and forget?
16:40:01 <AnnBassetti> Ken Laskey:  are these single step fire and forget actions?
16:40:05 <Lloyd_Fassett> Sam Goto: It is not.
16:40:27 <AnnBassetti> ...
16:40:41 <Lloyd_Fassett> Sam Goto: once you know the end point, if they return a potential action, they can build it
16:40:49 <sandro> q?
16:40:54 <AnnBassetti> Ken: you're taking atomic actions, fire and forget, but you take them and string them together
16:40:58 <AnnBassetti> eg. reservation making
16:41:01 <sandro> RRSAgent, pointer?
16:41:01 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2014/10/29-social-irc#T16-41-01
16:41:11 <AnnBassetti> then you get another obje ct with another (potential) action with another question\
16:41:26 <AnnBassetti> sam: as you are making a reservation, perhaps marriot return a reservation that can be cancelled
16:41:28 <hadleybeeman> q+
16:41:32 <AnnBassetti> or confirmed, cancelled, shared etc
16:41:33 <Lloyd_Fassett> (person) you're taking potential actions, then we can get a response wiht another question.  Marriot can return an API could be to cancel, confirm or share a reservation.
16:41:44 <AnnBassetti> q?
16:41:58 <Lloyd_Fassett> James SNell: the potential actions travel with the data.  we can continue the work flow by passing the nouns around
16:41:59 <Ralph> s/(person)/KenLaskey:/
16:42:00 <Loqi> Ralph meant to say: [James mentions the related work in the -> http://www.w3.org/community/hydra/ Hydra Community Group]
16:42:04 <AnnBassetti> hadleybeeman, wave your arms at harry
16:42:25 <Lloyd_Fassett> Peter: What does this have to do with Schema?  James Snell: with actions
16:42:50 <Lloyd_Fassett> Tim Berners: Some ontologies come with with the protocol implicit.
16:43:04 <Lloyd_Fassett> Peter: THis is non-discoverabel
16:43:21 <Lloyd_Fassett> Sam Goto: WE could do a better job of documentation
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16:44:46 <sandro> q?
16:44:50 <sandro> q+
16:45:04 <Lloyd_Fassett> Guha: We lookign at creating stable snapshots
16:45:27 <Lloyd_Fassett> Guha: we push out a new version twice a month
16:45:54 <Lloyd_Fassett> Danbri: I disagree.  In the last year we've tweaked the text.
16:46:11 <timbl> q?
16:46:20 <pfps> My issue here is how does the meaning of actions interact with schema.org.  I don't see any way of getting from schema.org to the meaning of actions as things that can be invoked.
16:47:04 <Lloyd_Fassett> James: Right now the Schema.org actions is declaring the action.  Can you work with the WG on that so we have a consistent model?
16:47:12 <lehawes_> Change nick to lehawes
16:47:14 <Lloyd_Fassett> Danbri: The protocol.
16:47:24 <azaroth> q?
16:47:56 <Lloyd_Fassett> Guha: There is 750K websites using schema markup.  We have to justify changes.
16:48:18 <Lloyd_Fassett> James Snell: we agree it's better to have one model than two
16:48:24 <pfps> q+ to note that schema.org actions bring in much more of the schema.org vocabulary
16:48:53 <Lloyd_Fassett> Sam Goto: we work with Markus FAlker from Hydra to incorporate his comments.
16:49:21 <Lloyd_Fassett> James Snell: at least on the Actions, I encourage you to come work with the WG.
16:49:44 <sandro> s/Markus FAlker/Markus Lanthaler/
16:49:45 <Loqi> sandro meant to say: q+
16:49:46 <Lloyd_Fassett> Danbri: Can we publish a Note with W3C?
16:50:00 <sandro> Loqi, you're messed up
16:50:17 <AnnBassetti> q?
16:50:36 <timbl> http://schema.org/docs/actions.html
16:51:01 <Lloyd_Fassett> Handley: please publish stable snapshots.  I enouraged the UK government and we need a stable thing to develop to.
16:51:17 <Lloyd_Fassett> Hadley: That's all of a plea for standards work.
16:51:19 <wseltzer> s/enouraged/advise/
16:51:21 <Loqi> wseltzer meant to say: aaronpk, on other channels, s/A/B/ works on the prior expression anywhere in the minutes
16:51:49 <Lloyd_Fassett> Hadley: sequence of actions, is there a benefit of stringing actions together, or have a unique id in the datamodel
16:52:37 <Lloyd_Fassett> Sam Goto: the changllenge with API's is that you have to read documentation to understand them.  The work we're doing is to make it that a machine can get a JSON payload and understand what can be done with that payload.
16:52:53 <elf-pavlik> affordances can also change depending on who makes the request!
16:52:57 <Lloyd_Fassett> Sam Goto: you don't ask a user to read a manual to browse the web.
16:53:17 <Lloyd_Fassett> Hadley: that's helpful, but Tim's point about machine readable would be helpful
16:53:19 <hadleybeeman> ack me
16:53:45 <Lloyd_Fassett> Sandro: The main difference is how the data shapes are handled.
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16:55:35 <Lloyd_Fassett_> Sam Goto: We have a website that describes the languages we looked at Sparkl, reseach shapes, Hydra html5 forms.  Our process has been documented.
16:55:57 <hadleybeeman> s/sparkl/SPARQL
16:55:58 <Loqi> hadleybeeman meant to say: ack me
16:56:14 <Arnaud> s/reseach shapes/resource shapes/
16:56:15 <Loqi> Arnaud meant to say: Arnaud joined #social
16:56:24 <aaronpk> heh k i can disable that here
16:56:26 <sandro> q?
16:56:30 <sandro> ack sandro
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16:57:16 <Lloyd_Fassett_> Sam Goto: the intruction of semantic roles is different with Schema and AS
16:57:47 <Lloyd_Fassett_> JAmes SNell: AS jsut focuses on actions without going into the roles
16:58:01 <Lloyd_Fassett_> James Snell: they are different but compatible
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16:58:42 <Lloyd_Fassett_> Sam Goto: Because of the tree you can just understand parts of the tree, you don't have to understand all the actions.  That's important programatically.
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16:59:09 <Lloyd_Fassett_> Sam Goto: you can be as specific as your users want it to be.
16:59:12 <AnnBassetti> q?
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16:59:19 <Ralph> i|Meeting: Social Web|-> https://www.w3.org/wiki/TPAC2014/SessionIdeas#Schema.org_and_Social_WG Schema.org and Social WG breakout session proposal
16:59:34 <Lloyd_Fassett_> Peter: You have to incorprate a lot of Schema when you incorporate Actions.
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17:00:14 <Lloyd_Fassett_> James Snell: There is an inheritence, Tantek points out that in Schema volcanoe's can have fax machines
17:00:25 <Lloyd_Fassett_> Danbri: countries can have opening hours too
17:00:41 <sandro> q?
17:00:44 <Lloyd_Fassett_> James Snell: from a purely rdf point of view you get some weir artifacts
17:00:52 <goto> goto has joined #social
17:00:56 <AnnBassetti> ack pfps
17:00:56 <Zakim> pfps, you wanted to note that schema.org actions bring in much more of the schema.org vocabulary
17:01:18 <pfps> if you use schema.org actions you get that the agent of an action is either a person *or* an organization, this brings in a large chunk of schema.org vocabulary plus disjunctive ranges
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17:01:37 <AdamB> just a heads up, there is about 15 minutes left
17:01:42 <goto> hey all, this is the documention i mentioned to you right now with regards to the options we looked at for IDLs. check it out: http://blog.sgo.to/2014/03/rows-and-idls.html Feedback welcomed.
17:02:13 <elf-pavlik> hi goto, thanks for joining! :)
17:02:37 <Lloyd_Fassett_> Tim BL: in the past Schema and rdf...it would be wonderful to have a schema that maps to rdf.  The reason schema has funny artifacts compared to rdf is that they work differently.  There is s lots of useful information inside schema that rdf could use.
17:02:52 <goto> here is the list of examples i showed earlier http://blog.sgo.to/2014/09/schemaorg-actions-implementations.html
17:03:23 <KevinMarks> hm, OK I'lll try firefox
17:03:39 <Lloyd_Fassett_> Tim BL: when I use rdf I can dereference and pick up very useful information.  In the RDF world we have one version of a thing.
17:03:53 <Lloyd_Fassett_> Danbri: I don't know if everyone is following
17:04:10 <Lloyd_Fassett_> Danbri: We keep changing the schema
17:04:27 <KevinMarks> got sound in firefox
17:04:30 <Lloyd_Fassett_> Tim B'l: Nobody is askign you to make claims you don't want to make.
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17:04:47 <pfps> q-
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17:04:52 <chaals1> rrsagent, draft minutes
17:04:52 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/29-social-minutes.html chaals1
17:04:53 <danbri1> searchj for volcanos with schema.org: http://danbri.org/2014/cse/volcano.html
17:05:01 <danbri1> it seems to confirm an absence of fax numbers
17:05:51 <Lloyd_Fassett_> Harry: we have ten minutes left.  We had previously had an concern with IPR. Thanks to Scott Peterson, we now just point to W3C's policy
17:06:20 <Lloyd_Fassett_> Harry: We have really good proof that schema.org is responsive and we should be happy that that work happened
17:06:24 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/29-social-minutes.html raphael
17:06:26 <AdamB> q?
17:06:32 <KevinMarks> http://schema.org/Volcano has faxNumber as the 5th property listed, danbri1
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17:06:58 <Lloyd_Fassett_> GUha: we have to figure out what we call a snapshot
17:07:07 <Lloyd_Fassett_> Guha: we'll figure out what we can do on that
17:07:46 <Lloyd_Fassett_> Danbri: the point Hadley brought up, we need to let people point to the version they are using.
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17:07:58 <sandro> q?
17:08:03 <wseltzer> Chair: Harry_Halpin
17:08:04 <Lloyd_Fassett_> Hadley: thank you
17:08:44 <Lloyd_Fassett_> Hadley: We use standards for preop that hold us back so we can swap data...it's a messy situation that we deal with in our world
17:08:55 <hadleybeeman> s/preop/interoperability
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17:09:58 <Lloyd_Fassett_> Guha; schema is a live ecosystem that we get feedback on
17:09:59 <sandro> q?
17:10:26 <Lloyd_Fassett_> James Snell: there are model issues people have with Schema.  Snapshots will make it significantly easier.  If we can get that, great.
17:11:06 <Lloyd_Fassett_> (person) is schema the world's hottest vocabulary?
17:11:51 <Lloyd_Fassett_> Danbri: there are a lot of microformats out there.
17:12:04 <Lloyd_Fassett_> Harry: there is more and more microformats on the web.
17:12:14 <Lloyd_Fassett_> Danbri: it's not a competition.
17:12:19 <sandro> q?
17:12:20 <azaroth> s/(person)/Taisuke Fukuno/
17:12:32 <raphael> q+
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17:13:00 <Lloyd_Fassett_> (person) is there a plan for multiple language
17:13:07 <KevinMarks> it is annoying for publishers to have to add multiple types of markup to get previews on different silos
17:13:11 <hadleybeeman> s/(person)/rtroncy
17:13:11 <elf-pavlik> microformats as in http://microformats.org/ ?
17:13:11 <Lloyd_Fassett_> Guah: the plan is to be in ASC
17:13:25 <Lloyd_Fassett_> Guha: you can translate it.
17:13:41 <Lloyd_Fassett_> Tim BL: When you dereference it does it come in english?
17:14:40 <Lloyd_Fassett_> Sam Goto: Elf has been contributing a lot
17:14:59 <elf-pavlik> once i can use WebID instead of state ids :)
17:16:00 <Lloyd_Fassett_> Tim bL: These actions are a part of a work flow, when you go through a process, when there is a problem do you have a plan to make a protocol around these situations?
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17:16:21 <yusuke> on real i10n word-to-word translation may not work as expected -- atomic concept is different by language and culture especially
17:16:36 <yusuke> ... especially for 'actions'
17:16:50 <Lloyd_Fassett_> Sam Goto: The RESTful Hydra community has been thinking about that.
17:17:06 <Lloyd_Fassett_> Danbri: We've made some progress.
17:17:28 <KevinMarks> hadleybeeman: harry was talking about wanting domains that aren't rented for IDs - is that something interesting at the govt level
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17:17:33 <goto> fyi
17:17:38 <AnnBassetti> OK .. bye elf and Kevin
17:17:38 <goto> here is another piece i wrote on hypermedia apis
17:17:38 <goto> http://blog.sgo.to/2014/04/what-your-api-would-look-like-as-webpage.html
17:17:40 <Lloyd_Fassett_> RRSAgent, generate minutes
17:17:40 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/29-social-minutes.html Lloyd_Fassett_
17:17:44 <elf-pavlik> thank you AnnBassetti enabling remote participation :)
17:17:46 <wseltzer> [adjourned]
17:17:50 <Lloyd_Fassett_> RRSAgent, generate minutes
17:17:51 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/29-social-minutes.html Lloyd_Fassett_
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