IRC log of wpay on 2014-10-28

Timestamps are in UTC.

00:00:13 [m4nu]
00:00:35 [m4nu]
dezell: There are other efforts - universal Point of Sale
00:01:30 [m4nu]
dezell: If you had point of sale devices all of these interfaces would work - WebIDL interfaces... simply bringing it up - almost got richard to present on this, he couldn't make it. Just pointing out there are multiple things on here that feel like a WebApp.
00:02:08 [m4nu]
dezell: printer methods UML diagram, print bitmap, print bar code, this has been in production for a long time, we could change this to be a bluetooth printer, etc.
00:02:44 [m4nu]
dezell: EPAS - electronic payment applications software - european focus, ISO 20022 - those ISO messages don't make a payment application. If you implement 3 specs, you have a payment application,
00:03:17 [m4nu]
dezell: terminal management, retailer application, acquirer protocol - these are the things that we may want to look at.
00:03:22 [m4nu]
Topic: EMVCo
00:03:48 [m4nu]
dezell: it's important for us to talk about this 400lb gorilla in the room - EMVco tokenization spec is at the basis of apple pay (that's the rumor)
00:04:10 [m4nu]
dezell: You can download spec, readable - internally they use ISO 8583 - token is built from that stuff... it's binary.
00:04:51 [m4nu]
dezell: Ecosystem is token service provider, acquirer, merchant, etc. token requestor is a placeholder - anyone can request a token. The soul of trusting this - refresh early/often.
00:05:33 [m4nu]
dezell: If you have an old token, someone steals it, get a new token. Requirements for token service provider - API guidelines - extremely vague - we could define RESTful services to EMVco.
00:05:53 [Karen]
Manu: Are you suggesting…it would be neat to get Apple Pay involved
00:05:59 [Karen]
…is the EMVCo the mechanism?
00:06:16 [Karen]
David: No, I'm just bringing it tou our attention
00:06:20 [Karen]
00:06:41 [Karen]
…it's more likely to get them moving in our direction if we are not going against them; not advocating, just stating fact
00:07:29 [Karen]
Scribenick: Karen
00:07:59 [Karen]
Speaker: Jorg Heuer, Deutsche Telekom
00:08:23 [Karen]
Jorg: I am part of Telekom laboratories
00:08:35 [Karen]
…not productized
00:08:50 [Karen]
…to address an eceosystem which a wallet should perhaps do, we have to have in mind...
00:09:06 [Karen]
…Given chance to occupy two days with what I have to tell
00:09:12 [Karen]
…Like to convey as much as I can
00:09:27 [Karen]
…today so that on second day you can tell me how to best contribute and continue on this topic
00:09:30 [Karen]
…the overview
00:09:42 [Karen]
…I have been using this overview for some time
00:09:59 [Karen]
…consists of people like Google who have been working on wallets
00:10:03 [Karen]
…all costs a lot of money
00:10:12 [Karen]
..Gemalto has made money, but it's hard to do
00:10:14 [Karen]
…One of reasons
00:10:29 [Karen]
…best described if you look at the newest entrant, Apple, with Apple Pay
00:10:46 [Karen]
…So few that have a vertical power to know the user, have access, provide the software and all the backend services
00:10:57 [Karen]
…This is what you have to have if you want to engage with al the partners
00:11:07 [Karen]
…All the others in the end were lacking access to the right part of the value chain
00:11:34 [Karen]
…Also true for DK to some extent; Google has started working on infrastructure
00:11:49 [Karen]
…but they have not yet blasted through the infrastructure as some expected
00:11:59 [Karen]
…Really tough [to do]
00:12:03 [Karen]
…it is an ecosystem
00:12:18 [Karen]
…if all the others are going to be part of something that works in the end, they need to accept their roles
00:12:24 [Karen]
…We have worked on that in our work
00:12:34 [Karen]
…my wallpaper for all the stuff we did, starting in 2006
00:12:37 [Karen]
…NFC, UFC stuff
00:12:44 [Karen]
…our R&D unit worked on it
00:13:01 [Karen]
…In 2007 we came across Info-Cards; identity management solutions
00:13:09 [Karen]
…idea was to turn identities into virtual cards
00:13:18 [Karen]
…my team is actually a team of identity experts
00:13:24 [Karen]
…we did not expect to work on payment
00:13:36 [Karen]
…I will love this topic which is challenging and complex
00:13:45 [Karen]
…Recognized we needed to join these two worlds; identity and payment
00:13:53 [Karen]
…you are showing the entitlement, authorization
00:14:04 [Karen]
…we developed run types, more complex things; aspects of the ecosystem
00:14:17 [Karen]
…Demonstrations by DK were based on technology we had developed
00:14:24 [Karen]
…To show the most important parts
00:14:36 [Karen]
…All the things we had imagined and showed the most important parts
00:14:49 [Karen]
…They came to us with parts from Continental, who had mastered NFC
00:14:57 [Karen]
…show mastery of electronic keys
00:15:02 [Karen]
…We integrated this into our framework
00:15:18 [Karen]
…So we have been working on that until 2013 on basis of an Android native code developed over years
00:15:27 [Karen]
…then looked at how to go further
00:15:33 [Karen]
…and build a wallet with HTML5
00:15:39 [Karen]
…and this is what I want to tell you about
00:15:49 [Karen]
…Story starts with a simple idea about how to structure things
00:15:55 [Karen]
rrsagent, draft minutes
00:15:55 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate Karen
00:16:07 [Karen]
Jorg: Take this info card as the trusted idea
00:16:16 [Karen]
…take credentials; we could build everything around it
00:16:34 [Karen]
…And we were able to create a title engine, a UI and engine worked with metadata
00:16:43 [Karen]
…We had no assumption about how functionality of card was implemented
00:16:47 [Karen]
…We needed to be open
00:16:53 [Karen]
…did not know what sits in the secure element
00:17:05 [Karen]
…but make sure the implementation accesses the secure element
00:17:13 [Karen]
…We know there is a Visa, MC, coupon application
00:17:18 [Karen]
…and we hook them up into our framework
00:17:27 [Karen]
…and have them handle things described in our metadata
00:17:36 [Karen]
….We used HTML5
00:17:41 [Karen]
…wanted to run on every platform
00:17:50 [Karen]
…more or less I have two devices for the demo later on
00:17:54 [Karen]
…Next step
00:17:56 [karen_od]
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00:18:00 [Karen]
…for us is to define the vision
00:18:03 [Karen]
…what they are doing
00:19:00 [Karen]
…"A tool for users where all types of credentials are stored; with appropriate security; for use in all kinds of personal digital transactions; in a vivid ecosystem - always under the control of the user on his trustable device/service."
00:19:09 [Karen]
…Microsoft started but did not continue
00:19:21 [Karen]
…We wanted to make hardware secure instruments for the end user
00:19:24 [Karen]
…it is already sitting there
00:19:35 [Karen]
…give you maximum control of entitlements, security control, etec.
00:19:44 [Karen]
….make it easy for people to have hundreds of identities
00:19:51 [Karen]
…get a new user card for each new mail box for example
00:20:01 [Karen]
…Since we do have ideas about understanding context for where wallet is used
00:20:10 [Karen]
…we could help and present the few identities that make sense
00:20:19 [Karen]
…We see the development in the identity space where silos are at it again
00:20:22 [Karen]
…we have lots of silos
00:20:37 [Karen]
…Today we see that browsers want to become identity management tools
00:20:54 [Karen]
…I as user have a problem when I want to change my browser; where are all these identities stored?
00:21:00 [Karen]
…possibly be a different tool
00:21:08 [Karen]
…and also take into account when running different devices
00:21:30 [Karen]
…Also, something that relates to next point, we did not to have the silos defined by your mobile operator or bank
00:21:50 [Karen]
…Whatever you do, not be confined o what end user accepts as a wallet
00:21:57 [Karen]
…I tell them your customers are also customers of others
00:22:02 [Karen]
…the wallet needs to be neutral
00:22:06 [Karen]
…That led us to a different model
00:22:10 [Karen]
…with respect to the roles
00:22:14 [Karen]
…We have a bit of a differentiator
00:22:23 [Karen]
…in which we say there is a role for a wallet provider
00:22:28 [Karen]
…someone who runs a wallet service
00:22:31 [Karen]
…could be a service
00:22:42 [Karen]
…you had that in your presentation; could be synchroniized
00:22:49 [Karen]
…Another one might not be open
00:23:10 [Karen]
…All things that are up to the ecosystem if we are talking about global standards
00:23:18 [Karen]
…I really like term Manu put out for a while
00:23:31 [Karen]
…a level playing field for others for innovation
00:23:37 [Karen]
…We could not do everything ourselves
00:23:46 [Karen]
…Access keys for house, card, hotel doors
00:23:56 [Karen]
…perhaps with loyalty cards; no way for us to cover all of that
00:24:11 [Karen]
…That was hard in our company to say we cannot be the ones to offer all these services, but rather to offer the platform
00:24:21 [Karen]
…We sit on the secure element, or could be a wallet operator
00:24:33 [Karen]
…Many places like ISIS in US, say we need to have one wallet
00:24:38 [Karen]
…One wallet operating
00:24:44 [Karen]
…would make onboarding easier
00:24:53 [Karen]
…So we learned we can achieve much more than we ever expected
00:25:00 [Karen]
…Some people wanted us to implemetn
00:25:06 [Karen]
…We did it in HTML5
00:25:07 [virginie]
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00:25:11 [Karen]
00:25:14 [Karen]
00:25:19 [Karen]
..whatever these items are
00:25:24 [Karen]
…that will come from outside
00:25:44 [Karen]
…We recognized that by building this stuff, we had to adopt to every single interface on the OS level; to interact with all the browsers
00:26:01 [Karen]
…see lots of interfaces all different with all different combinations of platforms
00:26:07 [Karen]
…Thought we could share our vision with W3C
00:26:18 [Karen]
…i think the future holds a lot of potential for this kind of things
00:26:24 [Karen]
…In payment, our goal was convergence
00:26:29 [Karen]
…We called it a converged wallet
00:26:38 [Karen]
…We wanted you to have same experience at cash register as the online shop
00:26:50 [Karen]
…We built an NFC based shopping scenario with a PC
00:26:54 [Karen]
…with a plug-in in browser
00:26:58 [Karen]
…and we authenticated
00:27:08 [Karen]
…I would hold my mobile phone against the NFC reader to authenticate
00:27:13 [Karen]
…used it as the trusted instrument
00:27:15 [Karen]
…easier to shop
00:27:23 [Karen]
…this is identical to me paying at the cash registere
00:27:28 [Karen]
…Leads us to the e-commerce field
00:27:35 [Karen]
…Consultancy people approaching us
00:27:44 [Karen]
…asking isn't that what we have been doing for years?
00:27:51 [Karen]
..Good prospect in e-commerce field
00:28:13 [Karen]
…Everything like loyalty, profiling, couponing would be integrated in same approach
00:28:20 [Karen]
…Can show with a small demo how that can be done
00:28:25 [Karen]
…Media is another thing with lots of problems
00:28:34 [Karen]
…in the home nobody knows who is allowed to do what
00:28:36 [Karen]
…To sue content
00:28:46 [Karen]
…that is limited; are you allowed to order something from your smart TV
00:28:56 [Karen]
…lots of personalization you cannot do; have to administer it with every device
00:29:03 [Karen]
…these things could be done simpler
00:29:13 [Karen]
…Also have been approached by DRM people; like music services
00:29:22 [Karen]
…I could have my entitlement with me and use on any device
00:29:25 [Karen]
…Topics of smart cities
00:29:29 [Karen]
…are pretty frightening
00:29:45 [Karen]
…They have started with EU Smart Cities program
00:29:52 [Karen]
…how can we control all the devices around me
00:30:05 [Karen]
…could be good way with my identity and authonomy
00:30:18 [Karen]
…Think we can help the whole thing to become user-centric; the whole idea behind the wallet
00:30:22 [Karen]
…Things flow through this device
00:30:30 [Karen]
…Wallet is also place where I do automation
00:30:39 [Karen]
…Opt-in and opt-out is one problem space
00:30:48 [Karen]
…When you want a confirmation from user
00:31:01 [Karen]
…pop up your wallet; an expression of will; to pick this one part for this transaction
00:31:17 [Karen]
…not opt-in or opt-out; but I picked this card for this transaction
00:31:25 [Karen]
…Also want to avoid storing my payment crednetial
00:31:42 [Karen]
…Id' rather have a world with credentials not stroed outside
00:31:47 [Karen]
…Ideas around centricity
00:32:01 [Karen]
…Lots of arguments; transparency, user control; convenience factor
00:32:06 [Karen]
…reference to .CLs
00:32:18 [Karen]
s/.CLs/Doc @
00:32:24 [Karen]
…He invented @
00:32:34 [Karen]
…complementary to customer relationship management
00:32:35 [wseltzer] Project VRM
00:32:40 [Karen]
…If you have tokens from vendors
00:32:57 [Karen]
…and you keep them because you think it will be important to get back to that same shop, you might have that same information
00:33:08 [Karen]
…not up to vendor, but you keep data about the transaction on your file
00:33:15 [Karen]
…Every vendor wants to be remembered after years
00:33:33 [Karen]
s/Doc Searls
00:33:46 [Karen]
00:33:56 [Karen]
…use of pseudonyms is eased
00:34:00 [wseltzer]
s/invented @/invented VRM (Vendor Relationship Management)
00:34:01 [Karen]
…also working with a prof in Frankfurt
00:34:09 [Karen]
…wallet might provide certain modules
00:34:12 [Karen]
…issue these rules
00:34:15 [Karen]
…and be untrackable
00:34:22 [Karen]
…also requires audits
00:34:27 [Karen]
…could be a good thing in the framework
00:34:31 [Karen]
…there is a need
00:34:39 [Karen]
…That is the idea here
00:34:49 [Karen]
…Open ecosystem for all the other players is a bit rough
00:35:00 [Karen]
…Could gain cost efficiencies by using web-based technologies
00:35:07 [Karen]
…We learned that in the mobile industry
00:35:11 [Karen]
…allow connections
00:35:19 [Karen]
…between issuing bank and @
00:35:35 [Karen]
…costs are high
00:35:39 [Karen]
…Germany has a lot of banks
00:35:49 [Karen]
…to be relevant with your wallet you need to have them all on board
00:35:59 [Karen]
…$500K per bank is not a model
00:36:06 [Karen]
…Once you have an agent in secure enviroment
00:36:10 [Karen]
…you could provide everything else
00:36:16 [Karen]
…even based on global platform standards
00:36:25 [Karen]
…Cards could allow that but not in practice today
00:36:30 [Karen]
…Legacy support
00:36:40 [Karen]
…I will show you things with optical systems
00:36:43 [Karen]
…show that these fit together
00:36:51 [Karen]
…technology agnostic makes it fit for innovation
00:36:58 [Karen]
…and fit into processes and things we already have
00:37:07 [Karen]
…Cannot just reinvent payment and expect everyobody to go for it
00:37:14 [Karen]
…and important to provide sercure element serviceces
00:37:18 [Karen]
00:37:23 [Karen]
…make payment possible
00:37:30 [Karen]
…cut it differently
00:37:43 [Karen]
…we are responsible for secure element; rest is up to others
00:37:51 [Karen]
…So let's look at more practical
00:37:55 [Karen]
…How to fit that into one wallet
00:38:04 [Karen]
…what we did is to create one monolythic application
00:38:15 [Karen]
…had some work done on the device itself
00:38:24 [Karen]
…applications on the same device
00:38:31 [Karen]
…talking to web browser was needed
00:38:41 [Karen]
…to pick your identity in the wallet and convey to a service on the Internet
00:38:45 [Karen]
…something really important
00:38:55 [Karen]
…if you have a merchant that you regularly go io,, they usually have an app
00:39:04 [Karen]
…all these things exist already
00:39:06 [Karen]
…One thing in wallet
00:39:14 [Karen]
…you want to have one place to do your transaction
00:39:30 [Karen]
…coupons in one app, payments in another app, that is not feasible
00:39:41 [Karen]
…If we can be part of that wallet experience that would help us
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00:39:46 [Karen]
…Structuring it
00:39:56 [Karen]
…we needed to handle those items in the wallet and make modules available
00:39:59 [Karen]
…Complex picture
00:40:07 [Karen]
…but that contains everything in terms of the big blocks
00:40:17 [Karen]
Manu: one comment on the general diagram
00:40:26 [Karen]
…one of things I was concerned about is use of the term "wallet"
00:40:32 [Karen]
…it means something different to each of us
00:40:45 [Karen]
…looking at this slide, I see a payment ecosystem, not neces a wallet
00:41:00 [Karen]
…Good for outreach, but wallets are composed by a large set of pieces
00:41:07 [Karen]
…each needs its own spec
00:41:11 [Karen]
…In showing people the demo
00:41:33 [Karen]
…do you think there is a misconception about wallet, or do people get it's an ecosystem that is being described
00:41:52 [Karen]
Jorg: this is our software architecture; you seee an ecosystem which is what it is meant to do
00:42:00 [Karen]
…i hate the word wallet because of all the misunderstandings
00:42:05 [Karen]
…This is the wallet in the view of an end user
00:42:13 [Karen]
…Not aspiration of some service to be a wallet provider
00:42:26 [Karen]
…Say this thing is open to call your cards, tickets, coupons you want to collect
00:42:38 [Karen]
…Good to hear you say ecosystem, but it's an architecgture
00:42:48 [Karen]
..If we dare influence people's perception of wallet
00:43:01 [Karen]
David: perhaps we put the bus model and software architectures at different levels
00:43:07 [Karen]
…I have hinted to that in the back end section
00:43:13 [Karen]
…These things would be vertical implementations
00:43:20 [Karen]
…and they would connect to @
00:43:30 [Karen]
…on wallet level we don't need to know so much about it
00:43:45 [Karen]
…the users, browsers pick some elements
00:43:56 [Karen]
…may be a question of communciations channels; optical or NFC, context
00:44:02 [Karen]
Manu: those details we have to figure out
00:44:05 [Karen]
Jorg: Right
00:44:08 [Karen]
…It's a lot
00:44:19 [Karen]
…When I tried to put these slides together for people who were not familiar
00:44:32 [Karen]
…I was concerned they would not understand
00:44:38 [Karen]
…But all these interpretations fit in there
00:44:41 [Karen]
…A simpler one to show
00:44:54 [Karen]
…a platform on which all these items sit
00:44:59 [Karen]
…using hardware, software
00:45:04 [Karen]
…or nothing at all
00:45:06 [Karen]
…made available
00:45:08 [Karen]
…all issued
00:45:18 [Karen]
…from your issuers, your services into your wallet
00:45:24 [Karen]
@: We have to think about the
00:45:29 [Karen]
…pattern of that
00:45:39 [Karen]
…this design was discussed in Web Crypto WG
00:45:42 [wseltzer]
s/pattern of that/same-origin policy of the web/
00:45:43 [dsr]
00:45:45 [Karen]
…problem was…some origins
00:46:05 [Karen]
…need to overcome
00:46:10 [Karen]
…these issues
00:46:14 [Karen]
Jorg: I hope so
00:46:32 [Karen]
…you can bet on that, in our company it was not easy to convey notion that secure element could be some secure element
00:46:38 [Karen]
…people were proud of SIM card
00:46:39 [wseltzer]
s/these issues/issues with the same-origin policy for secure element
00:46:43 [Karen]
…one example was security arm
00:46:55 [Karen]
…customers who need secure elements with certificaitons
00:47:54 [Karen]
rrsagent, draft minutes
00:47:54 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate Karen
00:48:05 [Karen]
Stephane: Question on this
00:48:06 [wseltzer]
scribenick: wseltzer
00:48:25 [wseltzer]
steph: question for tomorrow, where are the points where standards are needed
00:48:36 [wseltzer]
... vs the places we need flexibility for innovation?
00:49:32 [wseltzer]
Jorg: [slide: Using t-labs wallet aas a straw man, what are the interfaces, protocols, data formats?]
00:49:37 [wseltzer]
00:51:15 [wseltzer]
... lots of things in connecting to the back-end
00:52:07 [wseltzer]
... thought about beefing up the administration interface
00:52:23 [wseltzer]
... I don't want a backend service that looks entirely different depedning on the client
00:52:41 [wseltzer]
... I should be able to configure which instruments to sync with which devices
00:53:06 [wseltzer]
... tell the bank "your customer has a new device, wants to have his card on it" that could be automated
00:53:16 [wseltzer]
... lots of things out of our scope, coudl be useful in the ecosystem
00:53:33 [wseltzer]
00:54:13 [wseltzer]
s/[demo]/[slide: references]
00:55:46 [wseltzer]
Jorg: That's the end of my hour; I hope it's useful for discussion tomorrow
00:56:09 [wseltzer]
... A wallet isn't everything for payments, but I think it's a piece W3C could contribute
00:56:12 [wseltzer]
00:56:47 [wseltzer]
manu: what's next?
00:57:28 [wseltzer]
Jorg: I want to give the use cases of the wallet, with requirements based on web technology
00:58:29 [wseltzer]
steph: Are people happy to discuss wallet interfaces, not internals of wallet?
00:58:58 [wseltzer]
dezell: Let's not take that vote today while we're tired, but wake up tomorrow ready to discuss
00:59:14 [wseltzer]
dsr: Let's talk about use cases, interfaces will follow
00:59:28 [wseltzer]
Jorg: we created a solution around our ideas, not a product
00:59:49 [wseltzer]
... I expect there's space for dozens or hundreds of wallets meeting those specs
01:00:04 [wseltzer]
... I'm not advocating the solution, but user-centric approach to a wallet model
01:00:16 [wseltzer]
@@: apprach gives a good context to look at the ecosystem
01:00:27 [steph]
01:00:35 [dsr]
s/about use cases/use cases and ecosystem/
01:01:03 [wseltzer]
Jorg: Wallet provider shouldn't be capitalizing on information
01:01:44 [wseltzer]
... this business is based on trust
01:02:19 [wseltzer]
... let me show you one story
01:02:45 [wseltzer]
dezell: Let's close the meeting, and people who want to see the demo can see it
01:02:54 [steph]
rrsagent, make minutes
01:02:54 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate steph
01:02:55 [wseltzer]
... first thing tomorrow, we resume this discussion
01:03:11 [wseltzer]
... then AC meeting interrupts, and we reconvene to figure out ongoing activities and way forward
01:03:21 [wseltzer]
... Afternoon is very important
01:03:36 [wseltzer]
manu: also, identity and credentials CG during AC break
01:03:44 [wseltzer]
dezell: if you're not in AC meeting, that's a good place to be
01:03:46 [wseltzer]
01:03:48 [dsr]
rrsagent, make minutes
01:03:48 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate dsr
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15:41:24 [RRSAgent]
logging to
15:41:26 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs 413
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15:41:28 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be
15:41:28 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
15:41:29 [trackbot]
Meeting: Web Payments Interest Group Teleconference
15:41:29 [trackbot]
Date: 28 October 2014
15:41:33 [wseltzer]
rrsagent, this meeting spans midnight
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rrsagent, make logs public
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15:45:48 [padler]
First presetation/topic of the morning - Joerg Heuer - continuation of Wallet discussion from 10/27
15:46:18 [padler]
just covering administrivia before getting started..
15:46:47 [padler]
discussion on where we are publishing minutes/content from meeting...
15:47:23 [padler]
questions coming from the CG asking for visibility into what was discussed yesterday...
15:48:34 [padler]
Added information to slide deck on Doc Searles VRM (vendor relationship management) topic
15:49:05 [padler]
thanks to all for attending demo last night... willing to do another demo today on break..
15:49:06 [dan]
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15:50:00 [padler]
this part of the topic is more 'freestyle' - looking for input from others on topics/concepts that were discussed last evening
15:50:27 [padler]
as well as discussing proposal and any use cases..
15:51:28 [padler]
thanks.. will add...
15:51:30 [virginie]
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15:52:04 [padler]
joerg: recapping key points/from yesterday...
15:52:06 [jin]
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15:53:26 [padler]
joerg: discussion power of the wallet paradigm to enable horizontal integration across many industries/providers...
15:54:07 [padler]
joerg: meta-data in the wallet is key to being able to implement many different use-cases
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15:56:00 [dsr]
Present+ Dave Raggett
15:56:12 [manu]
Present+ Manu Sporny
15:56:25 [manu]
15:56:51 [evert]
Present+ Evert Fekkes
15:56:54 [ShaneM]
Present+ Shane McCarron
15:57:03 [padler]
question on what dependencies the wallet concept has to underlying platform.. for example, is the wallet concept dependant on mobile app?
15:57:28 [gludi]
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15:57:41 [padler]
(did not catch speakers name).. .
15:57:49 [_M_]
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15:58:30 [padler]
claudia: question on specific technologies used in implementing the wallet concept..
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16:00:30 [padler]
joerg: talking about the flexibility of the framework to choose distinct technologies based on different scenarios
16:00:56 [padler]
joerg: showing QR code to show linkages between devices...
16:01:35 [padler]
browsers display QR code and then leveraging mobile device to do out of band authentication...
16:02:16 [padler]
joerg: serves as a good example for where these types of modules could "plug-in" to the wallet framework
16:02:44 [padler]
joerg: black box wallet needs to talk to the browser..
16:04:41 [padler]
Matt/ joerg: discusssion on where the authentication credential "lives"... wallet implementation is not tied to any one device...
16:05:08 [padler]
joerg: wallet can live either on device or on in cloud or others..
16:05:27 [padler]
joerg: many different implementations even for a plastic card..
16:05:54 [padler]
joerg: use context to be able to decide which implementation "item" to use..
16:06:43 [padler]
matt: merchant perspective is worried more about details of the issuer of the payment device..
16:07:22 [padler]
matt: how do we make this more future looking... than just looking at how this works in today's context..
16:09:36 [padler]
pat/matt/joerg: discussion on merchant preferences for how to route transactions...
16:10:55 [padler]
matt/pat/joerg: how does the merchant context work? joerg: discussion on how debit schemes may work for POS terminal providers..
16:11:12 [padler]
matt/joerg: discussion on POS terminals and standards...
16:11:38 [padler]
dave m: how many issuing banks in Germany?
16:12:02 [padler]
joerg: there are many
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16:13:20 [padler]
Dave E: discussion on full stack providing too much detail..
16:13:36 [padler]
TIMEOUT... potential gas leak in building..
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16:42:46 [padler]
padler: back from Gas Leak - everyone is safe
16:44:01 [padler]
dave e: sharing context about ad-hoc discussions on break and asking to refocus the group on use-cases - is there a way to talk about the API's and interfaces used in the concepts being discussed?
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16:45:23 [padler]
Erik: take concept of the wallet and decompose it into specific components and line them up against use cases... figure out what are the key pieces...
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16:46:34 [padler]
dave: we have till around 10:35 to discuss and then need to decide what is next before Advisory Committee breakout...
16:48:00 [padler]
joerg: showing slide on core aspects of "wallet"
16:49:16 [manu]
padler: if you take that picture - it's very consumer focused.
16:49:31 [dan]
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16:49:44 [manu]
padler: I thnk your idea about the portable framework makes a lot of sense
16:50:21 [padler]
thanks for covering the notes!
16:50:22 [manu]
padler: this seems like it's all the same sort of stuff... can be applied in a variety of scenarios
16:50:58 [manu]
scribenick: manu
16:51:29 [manu]
joerg: The whole thing could be fit to the situation well...
16:51:43 [padler]
dave e: need a design that does not hit on any specific hardware...
16:51:44 [manu]
david: The API that we show can't be dependent on specific hardware.
16:52:01 [manu]
scribenick: padler
16:52:43 [padler]
that'd be great!
16:52:55 [manu]
scribenick: manu
16:53:14 [manu]
erik: Let's say that I have a loyalty card - that may not have any sort of integration w/ wallet.
16:53:28 [manu]
erik: This might be some UI information that's output that becomes part of the wallet.
16:53:41 [manu]
erik: If I could break down what a wallet is - it's a general purpose container for an item.
16:53:44 [manu]
16:53:50 [manu]
erik: The loyalty card, the bitcoin wallet, etc.
16:53:52 [manu]
16:54:02 [manu]
q+ to talk about "What is a wallet?" question.
16:54:44 [padler]
manu: here's the concerns about the wallet... experiences with wallet is that it means many things to many people...
16:54:45 [dezell]
ack manu
16:54:45 [Zakim]
manu, you wanted to talk about "What is a wallet?" question.
16:54:47 [padler]
can hold many things..
16:55:32 [padler]
manu: it's too broad... need to pick something that's more narrrow in scope...
16:56:06 [padler]
manu: need to focus on the 3 key features that will make us successful in our first iteration..
16:56:31 [padler]
manu: don't want' to rush it.. but we need to get the right focus quickly...
16:56:54 [manu]
joerg: we want the user to be in control of the technology
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16:57:05 [manu]
joerg: The field is very wide - very wide field of applications
16:57:14 [manu]
joerg: Focusing on wallet would ease the way we approach this.
16:57:25 [manu]
joerg: This is something, from an implementation point of view, we can show today.
16:57:35 [manu]
joerg: This could help us to deliver something that people can use
16:58:16 [manu]
claudia: Going back to charter for the group - what are thewe're trying to solve
16:58:30 [manu]
claudia: I thought we were trying to focus on key problems - what are the use cases
16:58:39 [manu]
claudia: Then go to - what do we need to focus on.
16:59:05 [manu]
claudia: This seemed like a bit cart before the horse
16:59:24 [manu]
david: We knew this was a deep dive - brings to the surface opinions and way to think about things.
16:59:39 [manu]
david: If we only talked about abstract use cases - we wouldn't hear about certain t hings.
16:59:56 [manu]
david: The end result we could come to is that we should have a task force looking at this issue.
17:00:05 [manu]
david: We may want to divide and conquer this huge task.
17:00:16 [steph]
17:00:44 [manu]
mountie: comment about the wallet - if we tried to implement this as a standard, we have to make secure element as base - wallet API should be a connection.
17:00:58 [manu]
mountie: Maybe we can add FIDO or U2F for authentication
17:01:24 [manu]
mountie: W/o the secure element - hardware based, strong storage - the wallet can be locked into browsers that cause different types of use experience.
17:01:54 [steph]
17:01:59 [manu]
joerg: as a MNO, I don't have an objection, but we should propose choices.
17:02:20 [manu]
joerg: We need to take into account - costs for SE element usage may not be appropriate.
17:02:43 [manu]
joerg: Low value things - crypto in memory, etc. I think SE needs to be a part of it,
17:02:51 [steph]
17:02:53 [steph]
17:03:05 [manu]
joerg: I would propose it as a use case to work on. Why not talk about convergent payment.
17:03:28 [manu]
erik: Let's look at this from a business point of view.
17:03:38 [manu]
q+ to talk about business requrements
17:03:50 [dezell]
17:03:55 [manu]
joerg: Aware of taking this from implementation perspective.
17:04:05 [manu]
joerg: reasoning behind this, we need to discuss here.
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17:04:31 [dezell]
ack virgine
17:04:37 [dezell]
ack virginie
17:04:41 [manu]
virginie: I wanted to react to secure element - happy w/ what you said - there is a fragmentation of SE solutions.
17:04:50 [manu]
virginie: We have to be abstract about it.
17:05:02 [manu]
mountie: There are many other groups touching SE
17:05:05 [Erik]
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17:05:15 [manu]
joerg: We've been talking about MasterPass - onlinen card present mechanism.
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17:05:27 [manu]
joerg: That could be one of the cornerstones to think about, we could easily integrate.
17:05:40 [manu]
joerg: Make use of virtual mastercard, same card that you use on register w/ NFC.
17:05:40 [tom]
manu, let me know if i should take over
17:05:49 [dezell]
ack steph
17:06:00 [manu]
scribenick: tom
17:06:30 [tom]
stephane: strong focus on user side of thins, lower focus on merchant side, interoperability, etc
17:06:35 [manu]
stephane: We have a huge focus on user side - less focus on merchant side. I want to be sure - hear from people on the other side - merchant side.
17:06:40 [manu]
17:07:00 [tom]
stephane: what do people think about importance of other things
17:07:06 [manu]
17:07:17 [tom]
joerg showing slide 23 again
17:07:41 [tom]
ticketing a very complex issue, could hardly be integrated into the model
17:08:11 [tom]
joerg: would like to stay out of the complex processes around e.g. ticketing
17:08:32 [tom]
stephane: easier to focus only on payment aspects for a start
17:08:59 [tom]
stephane: being agnostic of business level as far as possible
17:09:16 [tom]
matt: merchant id is needed for certain use cases
17:09:37 [dezell]
ack manu
17:09:37 [Zakim]
manu, you wanted to talk about business requrements
17:09:42 [tom]
correct: gray not matt
17:10:09 [tom]
manu: what is the key business need we try to meet?
17:10:49 [tom]
manu: user experience on the web is completely different on the web, depending on the payment instrument used
17:11:18 [tom]
manu: once customer hits "pay button" only the user preferred payment instrument should be shown
17:11:57 [tom]
manu: merchant should ideally not have to implement all payment instruments individually
17:12:46 [tom]
manu: key app would simplify it for both sides of the paymens market: customer and retailer
17:12:59 [tom]
gray: credentialing is key
17:13:22 [tom]
manu: push based payment, not a pull based payment
17:13:34 [tom]
gray: then credentialing becomes consumer problem
17:13:47 [tom]
manu: push based payments first
17:14:36 [tom]
joerg: probably we have to think about a payment user agent
17:14:47 [tom]
manu: requirement on the technology
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17:15:13 [tom]
manu: merchant can express which type of payments he can accept
17:16:17 [tom]
joerg summarizes: push payment (merchant), select applicable instrument (consumer), receipt
17:16:45 [tom]
david: part of the business discussion
17:17:06 [tom]
manu: describes push vs pull payment
17:17:28 [tom]
manu: push - consumer initiates the payment
17:17:52 [steph]
17:17:59 [tom]
manu: pull - merchant initiates the payment
17:18:41 [tom]
matt: requests further explanation
17:19:13 [tom]
manu: key thing - reducing pain of making a payment over the web
17:19:33 [tom]
manu: could theoretically also applied for in-store payment
17:20:48 [tom]
manu: negotiation between merchant and user if different payment instruments are in the wallet
17:20:54 [tom]
payment instrument = pi
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17:21:29 [tom]
claudia: in the current environment merchants try to register customers
17:21:49 [tom]
claudia: often combined with customers' payment information
17:21:50 [AndyF_]
17:23:05 [tom]
claudia: if i can pre-register my preference with a retailer, payment process is very easy
17:23:25 [tom]
claudia: difficult if i would like to shop in different shops
17:23:43 [dezell]
17:23:43 [tom]
matt: this is what amazon, paypal et al try to solve
17:24:08 [tom]
manu: two sides - merchant and consumer
17:24:28 [tom]
joerg: pre-reg of customers should be avoided
17:24:53 [dezell]
q+ to say it's not just "on the web"
17:24:58 [tom]
joerg: intermediation by third parties should/could be avoided
17:25:06 [glenwiley]
i'd like to be one the queu as well
17:25:23 [glenwiley]
17:25:31 [tom]
joerg: data breach issues could be solved, if merchants do not have sensitive data
17:25:49 [ShaneM]
q+ to speak for the smaller vendor
17:26:06 [tom]
joerg: wallet could 'learn' customer preferences over time
17:26:16 [tom]
joerg: that
17:26:24 [tom]
joerg: that would be the idea
17:26:41 [tom]
gray: untokenized payment data on the network, issue
17:26:54 [dezell]
17:27:05 [tom]
gray: tokenization could solve a lot of problems and increase security
17:27:11 [dezell]
ack steph
17:27:17 [Erik]
17:27:20 [tom]
stephane: push payment, multiple aspects
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17:27:35 [tom]
stephane: trust and security are key
17:27:54 [tom]
stephane: user experience can be standardized for push payments
17:28:12 [tom]
stephane: 3dsecure has problematic user experience
17:28:20 [dezell]
ack AndyF_
17:28:31 [tom]
andy: mechanism empowers user
17:29:16 [tom]
andy: merchants get a minimum set of data, no possibility to necessarily trace the consumer
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17:29:35 [dezell]
17:29:38 [tom]
andy: privacy aspect is compelling
17:29:55 [mountie]
17:30:14 [tom]
pat: differentiation between shopping as private person and shopping for organization would be possible
17:31:27 [tom]
brian: becomes a negotiated business value exchange, works for variety of problems
17:31:42 [tom]
gray: age verification another possibility
17:32:54 [ShaneM]
ack shanem
17:32:54 [Zakim]
ShaneM, you wanted to speak for the smaller vendor
17:33:12 [dezell]
ack dezell
17:33:12 [Zakim]
dezell, you wanted to say it's not just "on the web"
17:33:33 [steph]
ack glenwiley
17:33:47 [tom]
glen: article of the fbi of hundred of million of compromised accounts over the past year
17:34:25 [tom]
glen: update of all details at different merchants is very painful for customer
17:34:34 [dezell]
ack ShaneM
17:34:54 [padler]
17:35:15 [tom]
shane: the huge retailers are important, but small merchants would not necessarily want to loose their brand by using amazon payment
17:35:26 [steph]
17:35:29 [tom]
shane: the same holds true for mc and visa
17:35:39 [Erik]
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17:35:53 [tom]
david: captured a few things
17:36:12 [tom]
david: would like to refocus discussion a bit
17:36:23 [steph]
17:36:27 [tom]
david: business discussion should be held in this group
17:36:41 [tom]
david: higher level discussion needed, to capture main points
17:37:19 [tom]
david: task force is substructure of an interest group
17:37:34 [tom]
david: ig does not create standards
17:37:43 [tom]
david: wg writes standards
17:38:35 [tom]
david: if there were a tf to discuss the framework of apis, possible user experience and that people can innovate insied
17:38:49 [manu]
17:39:13 [dezell]
17:39:13 [tom]
erik: keep high level business requirements discussion going
17:39:52 [steph]
17:39:58 [dezell]
17:40:00 [tom]
erik: 1. business, 2. business cases, and finally go into technical details
17:41:07 [tom]
mountie: not focus only on the client side of the wallet, but also on the server side
17:41:43 [ShaneM]
17:42:00 [dezell]
ack mountie
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17:42:09 [manu]
mountie: We tried to generate digital receipts on the client side and failed, we should consider how these digital receipts are signed.
17:42:19 [tom]
pat: agrees with erik to focus on the top level business casses first
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17:42:34 [manu]
mountie: Perhaps the payment processor or the cloud device should digitally sign the wallet.
17:42:37 [manu]
s/sign the wallet/sign the receipt/
17:43:16 [tom]
pat: contextual framework (location, time, legal jurisdiction) have impact on the technical side too
17:43:53 [tom]
dan: newer forms of payment
17:43:59 [dezell]
17:44:05 [dezell]
ack padler
17:44:26 [tom]
dan: things like bitcoins, blockchains, etc
17:44:39 [tom]
pat: you still need wallet providers
17:45:04 [tom]
pat: key abstraction point, how to specify the context
17:45:21 [joe_h]
17:45:23 [tom]
pat: protocols comes in here
17:45:30 [tom]
dan: agrees
17:45:51 [tom]
manu: tf might be premature
17:46:10 [tom]
manu: helps getting everyone on the same page
17:46:31 [dezell]
17:46:32 [tom]
manu: better to have some conf calls first
17:46:42 [tom]
steph: agrees with manu
17:47:12 [tom]
steph: we have to be sure that we do not put everything into the wallet
17:47:16 [dezell]
17:47:33 [tom]
steph: push payment is not necessarily a wallet discussion
17:47:50 [tom]
steph: wallet tf soon, but not put everything into the wallet tf
17:47:52 [dezell]
ack joe_h
17:47:56 [dezell]
17:48:01 [dezell]
ack manu
17:48:03 [steph]
ack me
17:48:04 [dezell]
ack steph
17:49:03 [tom]
steph: wallet can help to bring user into the (complex) payment process
17:49:11 [tom]
correct steph <> joerg
17:49:33 [tom]
joerg: david thanks for lively discussion
17:49:41 [steph]
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17:49:58 [tom]
david: thanks for lively discussion.
17:50:30 [tom]
david: reconvene at 3pm and continue discussion
17:51:22 [virginie]
rrsagent, generate minutes
17:51:22 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate virginie
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18:36:06 [steph]
rrsagent, make log public
18:36:10 [steph]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:36:10 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate steph
18:46:00 [siddharthb]
HI - can you add Siddharth Bajaj (Opera) to the attendee list for 27th
18:46:24 [siddharthb]
I am attending remotely this morning and will try and attend in person this afternoon
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18:48:38 [steph]
sure Siddarthb
18:48:49 [steph]
18:48:53 [steph]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:48:53 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate steph
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ScribeNick: ShaneM
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22:15:27 [ShaneM]
David: Reintroduced topics: Payment Agent (formally Wallet)
22:16:22 [ShaneM]
... two types. Traditional model and the idea of "push payment". If we can capture what we think are the pros and cons of each; where the weak spots are in traditional and in push we will have a better understand and might help us decide how to proceed.
22:16:35 [ShaneM]
... alternately, continue the discussion from before and attempt to call out more use cases.
22:16:46 [jy]
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22:16:54 [ShaneM]
... some use cases are from web browsers. some happen only on a phone.
22:17:16 [stefb]
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22:17:22 [ShaneM]
manu: there were already some use cases from the web payment cg. we could at least look at the titles.
22:17:30 [ShaneM]
dezell: any objections? timebox it. 15 minutes.
22:18:26 [ShaneM]
stefb: we should probably identify some sources of other documents.
22:18:39 [ShaneM]
dezell: (someone) should get the titles from 12 8 12
22:19:00 [stefb]
Action: Claudia to investigate use-cases document from iso 12812
22:19:00 [trackbot]
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22:19:08 [ShaneM]
22:19:11 [manu]
Web Payments CG use cases:
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22:19:48 [joe_h]
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22:20:24 [ShaneM]
(group reviewed WCG use case titles - manu presented)
22:21:57 [ShaneM]
"purchase request"
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22:22:12 [ShaneM]
dezell: is purchase request from the point of view of a consumer?
22:22:36 [ShaneM]
manu: think of it as an invoice. merchant generates an invoice and sends it to the consumers payment processor
22:22:59 [ShaneM]
6.2 payment link
22:23:17 [ShaneM]
manu: like a 'payto:' scheme URL
22:23:26 [ShaneM]
6.3 payment processor choice
22:24:07 [ShaneM]
manu: consumer should be able to pick whatever payment processor they want. any given processor might be able to handle many payment methods (paypal, bitcoin, Amex).
22:24:29 [ShaneM]
dezell: how does a payment processor integrate with the concept of a payment agent?
22:24:51 [ShaneM]
manu: a payment processor is like a bank or a paypal. its some service someone is providing that implements the specifications we are talking about.
22:25:07 [ShaneM]
... could be a combined payment gateway and also a credit issuer
22:25:32 [ShaneM]
Claudia: any organization that supported the specifications could be considered a payment processor?
22:25:36 [ShaneM]
manu: yes.
22:25:59 [ShaneM]
Claudia: Today a merchant selects a processor. The user rarely has this.
22:26:22 [ShaneM]
manu: yes. but in push based payments it almost becomes meaningful.
22:26:54 [ShaneM]
Claudia: But it might matter to a merchant in that some processors would cost more than others.
22:27:20 [ShaneM]
manu: yes but the merchant can limit the types of payments and even the processors that they will work with when they push the invoice?
22:27:38 [ShaneM]
joe_h: this feels like dangerous wording.
22:28:00 [ShaneM]
What about "payment scheme"?
22:28:29 [ShaneM]
6.4 Parametric Offers
22:29:02 [ShaneM]
manu: machine readable offer for a time limited offer.
22:29:15 [ShaneM]
s/limited offer/limited sale of an item/
22:29:40 [ShaneM]
... designed to help search engines find offers of sale.
22:30:02 [ShaneM]
dezell: is the 'parametric' in this limited to the way the payment can be made?