16:00:44 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #webapps
16:00:44 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/10/28-webapps-irc
16:00:53 <glenn> glenn has joined #webapps
16:00:56 <Louay> Louay has joined #webapps
16:01:11 <ArtB> RRSAgent, make log public
16:01:16 <brianraymor> Present+ Brian_Raymor
16:01:18 <ArtB> RRSAgent, log spans midnight
16:01:18 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'log spans midnight', ArtB.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
16:01:30 <aaa> aaa has joined #webapps
16:01:42 <ArtB> RRSAgent, logs span midnight
16:01:42 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'logs span midnight', ArtB.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
16:01:58 <ArtB> RRSAgent, this meeting spans midnight
16:02:54 <zcorpan> zcorpan has joined #webapps
16:03:06 <alan-i> alan-i has joined #webapps
16:03:09 <benjamp> benjamp has joined #webapps
16:03:56 <myakura> myakura has joined #webapps
16:03:57 <timeless> scribe: timeless
16:04:11 <ArtB> ScribeNick: timeless
16:04:33 <ArtB> Agenda: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Webapps/November2014Meeting#Agenda_Tuesday_October_28
16:04:35 <StephanSteglcih> StephanSteglcih has joined #webapps
16:05:22 <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
16:05:22 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/28-webapps-minutes.html ArtB
16:05:32 <Dong-Young> Dong-Young has joined #webapps
16:05:39 <ArtB> RRSAgent, make log Public
16:05:42 <anssik> anssik has joined #webapps
16:06:02 <ArtB> Present+ Art_Barstow, Josh_Soref, Charles_Neville
16:06:21 <Yves> Present+ Yves_Lafon
16:06:25 <benjamp> Present+ Ben_Peters
16:06:34 <timeless> Zakim, who is on the call?
16:06:34 <Zakim> On the phone I see +1.617.225.aaaa
16:06:38 <chaals> s/Charles_Neville/chaals
16:06:42 <alia> alia has joined #webapps
16:06:42 <xiaoqian> Present+ Xiaoqian_Wu
16:06:43 <adrianba> Present+ Adrian_Bateman
16:06:43 <weinig> weinig has joined #webapps
16:06:49 <alia> Present+ Ali_Alabbas
16:06:51 <ShijunS> ShijunS has joined #webapps
16:06:51 <timeless> Zakim, aaaa is Portland
16:06:51 <Zakim> +Portland; got it
16:06:53 <_M_> present+ Mohammed Dadas
16:06:57 <spoussa> spoussa has joined #webapps
16:07:04 <ArtB> zakim, call Portland
16:07:04 <Zakim> ok, ArtB; the call is being made
16:07:05 <weinig> Present+ Sam_Weinig
16:07:06 <gludi|2> present+ Dieter Gludovacz
16:07:06 <Zakim> +Portland
16:07:14 <a12u> Present+ Hiroyuki_Aizu
16:07:17 <ShijunS> present+ Shijun_Sun
16:07:18 <sicking> sicking has joined #webapps
16:07:20 <spoussa> Present+ Sakari_Poussa
16:07:20 <alan-i> Present+ Alan_Iida
16:07:25 <timeless> Zakim, who is on the call?
16:07:25 <Zakim> On the phone I see Portland, Portland
16:07:28 <chaals> zakim, who is here
16:07:28 <Zakim> chaals, you need to end that query with '?'
16:07:30 <dom> dom has joined #webapps
16:07:31 <kenneth_> kenneth_ has joined #webapps
16:07:38 <Zakim> -Portland
16:07:46 <dom> Present+ dom
16:07:54 <chaals> zakim, Portland is really Laszlo
16:07:54 <Zakim> +Laszlo; got it
16:07:59 <kenneth_> Present+ Kenneth_Christiansen
16:08:05 <chaals> zakim, call portland
16:08:05 <Zakim> ok, chaals; the call is being made
16:08:06 <ArtB> zakim, call portland
16:08:06 <Zakim> ok, ArtB; the call is being made
16:08:07 <Zakim> +Portland
16:08:08 <Zakim> +Portland.a
16:08:13 <Zakim> -Portland.a
16:08:23 <chaals> zakim, call elvis
16:08:23 <Zakim> I am sorry, chaals; I do not know a number for elvis
16:08:25 <Jingwang_Qi> Jingwang_Qi has joined #webapps
16:08:37 <rniwa> rniwa has joined #webapps
16:08:40 <timeless> Zakim, Portland has chaals, ArtB, timeless, Yves
16:08:40 <Zakim> +chaals, ArtB, timeless, Yves; got it
16:08:45 <Hyunjin> Hyunjin has joined #webapps
16:08:51 <sicking> present+ Jonas_Sicking
16:08:57 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
16:08:59 <chaals> zakim, call someone randomly and ask if their fridge is running. And if they say yes, tell them to go catch it and then laugh...
16:08:59 <Zakim> I don't understand you, chaals
16:09:04 <timeless> Zakim, Portland also has sicking
16:09:04 <sunghan> sunghan has joined #webapps
16:09:04 <Zakim> +sicking; got it
16:09:08 <chaals> zakim, you're not unique
16:09:08 <Zakim> I don't understand 'you're not unique', chaals
16:09:15 <timeless> Zakim, [IP is smaug
16:09:15 <Zakim> +smaug; got it
16:09:30 <smaug> Present+ Olli_Pettay
16:09:37 <smaug> Zakim, nick smaug is Olli_Pettay
16:09:37 <Zakim> sorry, smaug, I do not see a party named 'Olli_Pettay'
16:10:06 <smaug> zakim, who is here?
16:10:06 <Zakim> On the phone I see Laszlo, Portland, smaug
16:10:07 <Zakim> Portland has chaals, ArtB, timeless, Yves, sicking
16:10:07 <Zakim> On IRC I see sunghan, rniwa, Jingwang_Qi, kenneth_, dom, sicking, spoussa, ShijunS, weinig, alia, anssik, Dong-Young, StephanSteglcih, myakura, benjamp, alan-i, zcorpan, aaa,
16:10:07 <Zakim> ... Louay, glenn, RRSAgent, jcdufourd, a12u, brianraymor, shoko, adrianba, bryan_, Zakim, _M_, youngwoojo, ArtB, kunio, lgombos, gludi|2, kurosawa, chaals, annevk, Tomoki, shepazu,
16:10:09 <Zakim> ... taku, Tomoyuki, fjh, Cyril, smaug, kbx, arunranga, kochi1, kochi, paul___irish, mihnea_____, MarkS, plinss, marcosc_, tyoshino, igrigorik, stryx`_, stryx`, MikeSmith, hober,
16:10:09 <Zakim> ... slightlyoff
16:10:16 <Hyunjin> Hyunjin has joined #webapps
16:10:17 <GeunHyung> GeunHyung has joined #webapps
16:10:18 <hiroto_> hiroto_ has joined #webapps
16:10:24 <smaug> Zakim, smaug is Olli_Pettay
16:10:24 <Zakim> +Olli_Pettay; got it
16:10:32 <smaug> Zakim, nick smaug is Olli_Pettay
16:10:33 <timeless> Topic: Introductions
16:10:34 <Zakim> ok, smaug, I now associate you with Olli_Pettay
16:10:38 <smaug> Present+ Olli_Pettay
16:10:40 <timeless> chaals: good morning
16:10:55 <timeless> ... We'll wait until 9:30 until we start our first item
16:11:08 <timeless> ... as we traditionally do, we'll go around the room asking people to introduce themselves
16:11:17 <lgombos> Present+ Laszlo_Gombos
16:11:18 <timeless> ... I'm chaals, from Yandex, co-chair of this group
16:11:23 <timeless> ArtB: Arthur, I work for Nokia
16:11:31 <timeless> ... i'm also one of the chairs
16:11:56 <kn1> kn1 has joined #webapps
16:11:59 <timeless> Josh_Soref: Josh Soref, BlackBerry, Scribe, Observer
16:12:11 <timeless> spoussa: Sakari Poussa, Intel
16:12:15 <dka> dka has joined #webapps
16:12:22 <timeless> kenneth_: Kenneth Christiansen, Intel
16:12:29 <timeless> weinig: Sam Weinig, Apple
16:12:33 <dka> ‘ello
16:12:38 <timeless> benjamp: Ben Peters, Microsoft
16:12:42 <timeless> sicking: Joans Sicking, Mozilla
16:12:55 <timeless> ShijunS: Shijun Sun, Microsoft
16:13:03 <adrianba> s/Joans/Jonas/
16:13:03 <timeless> alan-i: Alan, Microsoft
16:13:13 <plh> plh has joined #webapps
16:13:19 <forty4> forty4 has joined #webapps
16:13:22 <igarashi> igarashi has joined #webapps
16:13:22 <timeless> xiaoqian: Xiao, W3 Team Contact
16:13:30 <Claes> Claes has joined #webapps
16:13:33 <timeless> Yves: Yves, W3C
16:13:36 <adrianba> s/Alan/Ali/
16:13:51 <wooglae> wooglae has joined #webapps
16:14:22 <timeless> a12u: XXX,
16:14:31 <jcdufourd> jcdufourd: Jean-Claude Dufourd, Institut Mines Telecom, observer
16:14:35 <Louay> Louay Bassbouss
16:14:54 <timeless> StephanSteglcih: QQ
16:14:55 <kinjim> kinjim has joined #webapps
16:15:03 <Dong-Young> Dong-Young Lee (LG)
16:15:11 <timeless> youngwoojo: youngwoojo, LGE, Observer
16:15:19 <bryan> bryan: Bryan Sullivan
16:15:23 <timeless> PPP: PPZ,
16:15:30 <alia> s/alan-i: Alan/alia: Ali
16:15:37 <Evangelos> Evangelos has joined #webapps
16:15:40 <annevk> annevk has left #webapps
16:15:46 <jcdufourd> s/QQ/Stephan Steglich, Fraunhofer Fokus, observer/
16:15:48 <timeless> richt: Rich Tibbet, Opera
16:16:01 <stone> stone has joined #webapps
16:16:02 <timeless> shoko: Shoko RRR
16:16:06 <timeless> ZZZ
16:16:09 <timeless> AAA
16:16:11 <timeless> BBB
16:16:13 <timeless> CCC
16:16:23 <timeless> DDD: France Telecom, Obs
16:16:25 <timeless> EEE
16:16:27 <Evangelos> Evangelos Vlachogiannis Fraunhofer FIT, observer
16:16:32 <timeless> FFF: Observer
16:16:37 <timeless> GGG: Observer
16:16:45 <timeless> HHH: LG
16:16:48 <timeless> III: Orange
16:16:49 <GeunHyung> GeunHyung Kim
16:16:49 <shoko> s/RRR/Okuma, Tomo-Digi Corporation, Observer/
16:16:52 <alia> s/alan-i/alia/
16:16:55 <timeless> JJJ
16:16:55 <timeless> KKK
16:17:00 <timeless> LLL: Japan, Observer
16:17:01 <bryan> s/PPP PPZ/ Bill Hsiung, MSTAR Semiconductor
16:17:06 <timeless> MMM: Oracle
16:17:14 <timeless> marcosc_: Marcos Caseras, Mozilla
16:17:20 <timeless> VVV
16:17:21 <Kumar> Kumar has joined #webapps
16:17:22 <timeless> WWW
16:17:26 <israelh> israelh has joined #webapps
16:17:27 <timeless> XXX Observer
16:17:32 <bryan> s/PPP: PPZ/Bill Hsiung, MSTAR Semiconductor
16:17:34 <timeless> dom: Dominic, W3C
16:17:39 <israelh> Present+ Israel_Hilerio
16:17:40 <timeless> EWQ Softbank
16:17:44 <timeless> RFE
16:17:51 <timeless> WQQ
16:17:53 <timeless> POQ
16:17:56 <timeless> LMN
16:18:01 <wooglae> Present+ Wooglae_Kim
16:18:02 <timeless> FSQ Tencent
16:18:03 <dom> s/nic/nique/
16:18:13 <dka> Dan Appelquist: dka, @torgo; WebApps wg member; TAG Co-Chair; URL fan; #FirefoxOS fanboy; also A.C. rep for Telefónica.
16:18:18 <adrianba> Adrian Bateman, Microsoft
16:18:19 <Hoyoun> Hoyoun has joined #webapps
16:18:21 <timeless> dka: Dan Applequest
16:18:28 <timeless> adrianba: Adrian, Microsoft
16:18:29 <marcosc> marcosc has joined #webapps
16:18:31 <xiaoqian> s/FSQ/Xitong Huang
16:18:36 <timeless> IQQ
16:18:39 <timeless> DQQ
16:18:45 <hjlee> hjlee has joined #webapps
16:18:53 <Claes> Present+ Claes_Nilsson
16:18:58 <timeless> [ Scribe apologizes ]
16:19:01 <Nishanth> Nishanth has joined #webapps
16:19:05 <dka> s/Applequest/Appelquist
16:19:05 <timeless> Topic: Agenda
16:19:13 <timeless> s/Topic: Agenda//
16:19:14 <_M_> s/III:/Mohammed Dadas
16:19:25 <timeless> smaug: Olli Pettay, Mozilla
16:19:50 <timeless> lgombos: Laszlo Gombos, Samsung
16:19:52 <hiroki> hiroki has joined #webapps
16:19:57 <timeless> topic: Agenda
16:20:03 <donghoon> donghoon has joined #webapps
16:20:11 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
16:20:17 <igarashi> present +igarashi
16:20:22 <anssik> zakim, [IPcaller] is me
16:20:24 <Zakim> +anssik; got it
16:20:28 <notbenjamin> notbenjamin has joined #webapps
16:20:28 <anssik> Present+ Anssi_Kostiainen
16:20:41 <timeless> i/topic/anssik: Anssi Kostiainen, Intel/
16:20:42 <igarashi> +igarashi
16:20:45 <timeless> ArtB: we were considering talking with sysapps
16:20:52 <timeless> marcosc_: let's get it out of the way
16:21:07 <timeless> s/+igarashi/Present+ igarashi/
16:21:17 <timeless> marcosc_: what APIs can be salvaged from SysApps
16:21:21 <timeless> ... brought over to this group
16:21:25 <timeless> ArtB: put that in at 1pm
16:21:29 <timeless> ... look around for wonsuk
16:21:41 <timeless> ... could one of you send an email to public-sysapps
16:21:47 <timeless> mounir: marcosc_ would be glad to do that
16:22:34 <timeless> ArtB: 1-1:30pm
16:22:39 <wooglae1> wooglae1 has joined #webapps
16:22:42 <timeless> mounir: Permissions API ?
16:22:49 <timeless> ... after the break at 11am?
16:22:54 <timeless> chaals: yeah...
16:23:04 <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:23:04 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/28-webapps-minutes.html timeless
16:23:17 <timeless> chair: ArtB, chaals
16:23:22 <tomoyuki> tomoyuki has joined #webapps
16:23:38 <timeless> i/topic:/rubys: Sam Ruby, Apple/
16:23:43 <cyns> cyns has joined #webapps
16:23:46 <timeless> chaals: anything else for the agenda?
16:23:49 <bkardell_> bkardell_ has joined #webapps
16:23:55 <timeless> ... we could start on Screen Orientation
16:24:07 <timeless> Topic: Screen Orientation
16:24:13 <timeless> mounir: we just finished a new WD
16:24:13 <ArtB> -> https://w3c.github.io/screen-orientation/ Screen Orientation ED
16:24:17 <timeless> ... we failed to go to LC
16:24:27 <timeless> ... it's now shipping in Chrome (including for Android)
16:24:33 <timeless> ... i'm not sure if Mozilla will update
16:24:34 <ArtB> -> https://github.com/w3c/screen-orientation/issues Screen Orientation Open Issues
16:24:38 <timeless> ... there are two implementations
16:24:44 <timeless> ... one from Mozilla, one from Microsoft
16:24:48 <timeless> s/two/two prefixed/
16:25:00 <timeless> ... also Tizen has an unprefixed outdated implementation
16:25:05 <timeless> chaals: marcosc_?
16:25:12 <timeless> mounir: wrt Open Issues
16:25:21 <timeless> ... the real outstanding one is Animation Frame Task
16:25:25 <timeless> ... it's why we didn't go to LC
16:25:31 <timeless> ... my opinion is that it isn't important
16:25:35 <timeless> ... I think sicking would agree
16:25:36 <ArtB> -> https://github.com/w3c/screen-orientation/issues/40 Issue 40 Use animation frame task
16:25:44 <timeless> ... the problem is that Animation Frame isn't defined anywhere
16:25:57 <timeless> ... we're stalling the spec for something that might not be defined for two years
16:26:01 <timeless> marcosc_: i was going to echo what he said
16:26:09 <timeless> ... from my perspective, it [the spec], is pretty much done
16:26:18 <timeless> weinig: can you give us an overview
16:26:22 <Nishanth> Nishanth has joined #webapps
16:26:24 <timeless> ... i know the security restrictions is a bit vague
16:26:29 <timeless> ... it allows for essentially anything
16:26:35 <timeless> ... do you have an overview of what people have done
16:26:49 <timeless> ... i know that's one of the things that of concern to us
16:26:57 <timeless> mounir: the spec is vague for that reason
16:27:06 <timeless> ... we want UAs to have their own security decisions on top
16:27:12 <timeless> ... full screen is something on top
16:27:12 <jhund> jhund has joined #webapps
16:27:22 <timeless> ... we said that it's optional to require Fullscreen
16:27:31 <timeless> ... this is how Chrome Android behaves on KitKat
16:27:43 <timeless> ... if you have no browser ui, fullscreen is not a requirement
16:27:53 <timeless> weinig: to be clear,my concern is that the spec does not define that
16:27:56 <timeless> ... and makes it optional
16:28:00 <timeless> ... it defines many ways to do this
16:28:09 <timeless> ... but someone to use this won't know what it will do
16:28:17 <timeless> ... Why did you make it a MAY in the first place?
16:28:25 <timeless> mounir: we have two different scenarios in Chrome Android
16:28:34 <timeless> ... if you fullscreen, you might not have browser ui
16:28:38 <timeless> ... you're more maximized
16:28:43 <Kevin_Hill> Kevin_Hill has joined #webapps
16:28:44 <timeless> ... we couldn't require fullscreen
16:28:54 <timeless> weinig: i'm not sure a UC for a non-browser scenario...
16:29:09 <timeless> mounir: on the latest Android, Chrome Tabs behave like activities
16:29:16 <timeless> ... it's ok for a tab to change screen orientation
16:29:23 <timeless> ... and any app can lock screen orientation
16:29:31 <timeless> ... in that case, it's ok for an app to lock screen orientation
16:29:38 <timeless> ... we could make it a stronger recommendation
16:29:45 <timeless> ... assuming cases where it isn't required seems
16:29:52 <timeless> ... but a MUST sounds inappropriate
16:29:56 <timeless> weinig: I disagree
16:29:58 <sam> sam has joined #webapps
16:30:06 <timeless> ... especially for a security requirement
16:30:14 <timeless> ... taking control of pieces of the browser UI
16:30:19 <timeless> ... that the user thought the user controlled
16:30:23 <timeless> ... and making it less clear
16:30:29 <timeless> ... makes it easy to fishable
16:30:32 <TNK> TNK has joined #webapps
16:30:41 <timeless> sicking: w/ Safari on iOS, the urlbar scrolls away
16:30:50 <timeless> weinig: that's true, you can get rid of the urlbar
16:30:56 <timeless> ... but you can't control screen orientation
16:31:03 <timeless> sicking: why is that a security issue
16:31:09 <timeless> weinig: it increases the ability to phish
16:31:19 <timeless> ... mocking OS UI
16:31:26 <timeless> mounir: can't you mock this w/o ?
16:31:32 <timeless> weinig: i haven't seen a good example of that
16:31:40 <timeless> ... but if so, i don't see why to lock to fullscreen
16:31:52 <timeless> mounir: the reason to lock to fullscreen is for "annoyance"
16:32:02 <timeless> ... it makes a certain amount of user interaction first
16:32:07 <timeless> ... the other bit is chrome UI
16:32:21 <timeless> ... if you change tabs, and everything starts switching, that's problematic
16:32:27 <timeless> ... but once tabs start behaving like apps, it's more ok
16:32:39 <timeless> ... we're not doing that for security, but mostly for UI and annoyance
16:32:50 <timeless> weinig: we should probably change the term from Security to Something Else
16:32:55 <timeless> chaals: not probably, but yes
16:32:59 <timeless> ... annoying people is bad design
16:33:10 <timeless> ... the example w/ phish is that you put a 90 degree rotated browser
16:33:17 <timeless> weinig: I take their example
16:33:24 <timeless> ... that you could detect rotation and
16:33:32 <timeless> chaals: i agree that you don't need the MUST
16:33:36 <timeless> weinig: i wouldn't go that far
16:34:20 <timeless> marcosc: I'm recording an issue on this now
16:34:31 <timeless> kenneth_: is it possible for users/something to suppress this?
16:34:38 <timeless> mounir: that's what we do on Chrome Desktop
16:34:44 <timeless> kenneth_: should that be a MUST?
16:34:50 <timeless> mounir: the lock request would fail if that happens
16:34:55 <timeless> ... I don't know how to make it a must
16:35:01 <timeless> ... you have the problem of tablets/laptops
16:35:12 <timeless> ... you might imagine that a tablet could lock screen
16:35:19 <timeless> ... but once you dock, it isn't ok
16:35:24 <timeless> kenneth_: i was just wondering
16:35:29 <timeless> ... in chrome, you can go back in history
16:35:37 <timeless> ... if i do that and orientation changes, that's confusing
16:35:40 <marcosc> filed: https://github.com/w3c/screen-orientation/issues/82
16:35:46 <timeless> ... [Back action]
16:36:05 <timeless> kenneth_: I was on a locked orientation page
16:36:12 <timeless> ... I transition to a page that doesn't have a locked orientation
16:36:16 <timeless> ... and then I click back
16:36:27 <timeless> mounir: doesn't that happen on mobile already?
16:36:38 <timeless> kenneth_: that's what I'm talking about when i click on browser chrome
16:36:52 <timeless> mounir: that's why we don't want it for non fullscreen
16:37:00 <timeless> ... i don't know if it's the role of a spec to make a mandate
16:37:07 <timeless> sicking: in all mobile platforms
16:37:15 <timeless> ... there are things where you bookmark a homepage
16:37:20 <timeless> ... it opens a page in minimal/no chrome
16:37:28 <timeless> ... in that scenario there's no reason not to allow it
16:37:34 <timeless> ... but in some cases there's some chrome
16:37:39 <timeless> ... it can be annoying in that situation
16:37:52 <timeless> ... but in FirefoxOS, we decided if a user moves to the homescreen, the user trusts it
16:38:00 <timeless> ... and allow them to fullscreen/orient
16:38:09 <ArtB> -> https://github.com/w3c/screen-orientation/issues/82 New Screen Orientation issue based on Sam's feedback
16:38:11 <timeless> chaals: Mozilla, any plans
16:38:13 <timeless> sicking: yes
16:38:27 <timeless> chaals: Microsoft?
16:38:37 <timeless> adrianba: I imagine we'll snap to the spec when we get around to it
16:38:39 <timeless> ... i don't know when
16:38:46 <timeless> marcosc: our concern
16:38:51 <timeless> ... we've changed the spec significantly
16:38:56 <timeless> ... if that's ok with you guys
16:39:03 <timeless> chaals: weinig, you expressed concern
16:39:12 <timeless> weinig: we'll give a more detailed response to the spec in email
16:39:21 <timeless> marcosc: mounir said it's already in chrome
16:39:26 <timeless> ... we'll want to update soon
16:39:34 <timeless> ... early feedback is always better
16:39:36 <timeless> weinig: obviously
16:39:44 <timeless> chaals: ArtB wants to know when we're going to LC
16:40:08 <timeless> ... and you have to restart LC if you have issues
16:40:13 <timeless> ... unless we do the new process
16:40:19 <timeless> [ chaals is plugging Process-2014]
16:40:27 <timeless> weinig: we understand you want to move it
16:40:32 <timeless> ... we'll give feedback soon
16:40:39 <timeless> chaals: any more comments/questions?
16:40:42 <timeless> [ Silence ]
16:40:58 <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:40:58 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/28-webapps-minutes.html timeless
16:41:26 <Zefa> Zefa has joined #webapps
16:41:36 <timeless> Meeting: WebApps WG F2F
16:41:41 <timeless> topic: Manifest
16:41:43 <marcosc> https://github.com/w3c/manifest/issues
16:41:43 <chaals> s/concern/concern - do you want to give any more detailed info here?
16:41:59 <ArtB> -> http://w3c.github.io/manifest/ Manifest ED
16:42:02 <timeless> marcosc: manifest is moving along
16:42:07 <timeless> ... we're doing it in two phases
16:42:11 <timeless> ... not formally, but...
16:42:14 <timeless> ... a simple v1
16:42:17 <timeless> ... to see what would be needed
16:42:25 <timeless> ... this has since shipped in Chrome Beta on Android
16:42:30 <chaals> q+ to feature creep
16:42:31 <timeless> ... and I'm implementing the spec in Gecko
16:42:46 <timeless> ... with intent to have it in FirefoxOS at some point
16:42:48 <timeless> ... the spec has
16:42:51 <timeless> ... issues
16:42:57 <timeless> ... there aren't many open issues
16:43:00 <timeless> ... mostly feature requests
16:43:06 <timeless> ... it's really simple
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16:43:14 <timeless> ... the biggest aspect, are issues in v2
16:43:18 <timeless> ... we need discussion about
16:43:20 <jungkees> Present+ Jungkee_Song
16:43:22 <timeless> ... "what is a web application"
16:43:24 <skim13> skim13 has joined #webapps
16:43:28 <timeless> ... "what is the scope of a web application"
16:43:37 <timeless> ... in url space, "what is the scope of a web application"
16:43:45 <timeless> ... how does that work with service workers
16:43:51 <timeless> ... also in coordination w/ WebAppSec WG
16:44:00 <timeless> ... where can i load the app from, where can I load icons from
16:44:02 <timeless> ... no major issues
16:44:06 <timeless> ... discussions on github page
16:44:09 <timeless> ... everyone's happy
16:44:12 <timeless> ... questions, comments?
16:44:13 <timeless> q?
16:44:14 <timeless> ack chaals
16:44:14 <Zakim> chaals, you wanted to feature creep
16:44:31 <timeless> chaals: we regard the inability to internationalize to be an issue, not a feature
16:44:52 <timeless> ... issue #208 / issue #211
16:44:56 <timeless> marcosc: the issues are there
16:45:01 <timeless> ... we're discussing various models
16:45:05 <timeless> ... the approach we're taking
16:45:11 <timeless> ... we need to look at how apps are made today
16:45:19 <timeless> ... you don't have internationalized html elements
16:45:26 <ArtB> -> https://github.com/w3c/manifest/issues/208 Manifest Issue 208
16:45:31 <timeless> ... you don't have a paragraph in english, and then a paragraph in japanse
16:45:35 <ArtB> -> https://github.com/w3c/manifest/issues/211 Manifest Issue 211
16:45:41 <timeless> ... a question of a single page / one for each language
16:45:42 <mounir> q+
16:45:51 <timeless> ... that's the problem space for the
16:45:52 <chaals> q+ to feature creep
16:46:02 <timeless> kenneth_: the server could return different answers
16:46:09 <timeless> q+
16:46:29 <timeless> marcosc: html doesn't do that (multiple languages in a single document)
16:46:40 <timeless> ack mounir
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16:46:59 <timeless> mounir: manifest v1 goal was feature parity with add-to-homescreen that all browsers were doing
16:47:13 <timeless> ... nearly every mobile platform supported in their own ways
16:47:15 <timeless> ... new meta tags
16:47:18 <timeless> ... that was a mess
16:47:25 <timeless> ... feature parity was the most important goal
16:47:31 <timeless> ... i18n would be the most important next step
16:47:34 <timeless> ... i think we should do that now
16:47:46 <timeless> ... we should iterate from here, instead of the best solution that will never happen in the next decade
16:47:58 <timeless> chaals: i don't think we need to aim for the perfect solution
16:48:06 <timeless> ... we should aim for problematic
16:48:16 <timeless> ... doing as badly as you can do in html isn't a goal
16:48:19 <timeless> ack chaals
16:48:19 <Zakim> chaals, you wanted to feature creep
16:48:26 <timeless> ... another thing that is feature creep
16:48:28 <darobin> darobin has joined #webapps
16:48:29 <timeless> ... is a source for updated tags
16:48:39 <timeless> ... in Tableaux, in Yandex, open your screen and get your favorite sites
16:48:44 <timeless> ... you can put your text label
16:48:50 <timeless> ... the widget will go and fetch some data
16:48:56 <timeless> ... update the number of email messages
16:48:59 <timeless> [ examples ]
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16:49:14 <timeless> chaals: this feature is quite common in places
16:49:19 <timeless> marcosc: Speed Dial?
16:49:20 <timeless> chaals: yes
16:49:31 <timeless> ... being able to do that so your application icon shows how many waiting emails
16:49:39 <timeless> [ ... or missed phonecalls ]
16:49:46 <timeless> chaals: url spits back a bit of json
16:49:50 <timeless> ... Opera has something similar
16:49:55 <timeless> ... we'd like to add that
16:49:58 <Claes> q+
16:50:01 <timeless> ... we'd be happy if you took our api
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16:50:06 <timeless> marcosc: file a feature request
16:50:09 <timeless> ... we can discuss it
16:50:11 <timeless> ack me
16:51:04 <chaals> Josh: SOunded like someone said they didn't see a particular need to have all languages handy, but I did a demo where I asked you to switch, and you may have gone offline. The usecase of switching language offline isn't so unlikely
16:51:12 <timeless> s/chaals/scribe/
16:51:26 <timeless> marcosc: we don't have data about how often this happens
16:51:30 <timeless> ... it might be rare or common
16:51:33 <timeless> ... i don't know
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16:51:38 <timeless> mounir: i doubt it's common
16:51:48 <timeless> kenneth_: same problem w/ service worker
16:51:54 <timeless> ... i remember working in Gnome Desktop
16:51:57 <timeless> ... we added i18n
16:52:01 <timeless> ... .desktop files
16:52:05 <timeless> ... it became a problem w/ loading
16:52:12 <timeless> ... it needs to be separate files
16:52:16 <timeless> mounir: isn't there something for json-imports?
16:52:19 <timeless> q?
16:52:20 <timeless> ack Claes
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16:52:32 <timeless> s/SOunded/Sounded/
16:52:33 <chaals> q+
16:52:37 <timeless> Claes: we had a discussion on the CSP field
16:52:45 <timeless> ... trying to understand how it works
16:52:54 <timeless> ... if I want to specify CSP per CSP spec
16:52:57 <timeless> ... can i do that in Manifest?
16:53:03 <timeless> marcosc: you can, not today
16:53:10 <timeless> ... we have a separate spec, we're hoping to fold
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16:53:32 <ArtB> -> http://w3c.github.io/manifest/#content-security-policy Content Security Policy
16:53:34 <timeless> ... you can see Example.com has a CSP policy, and that controls where the manifest is loaded from
16:53:39 <kenneth_> http://w3c.github.io/manifest-csp
16:53:43 <timeless> ... where you can get your icons from
16:53:48 <timeless> ... and where you can load your manifest from
16:53:52 <timeless> ... we're adding,
16:53:56 <timeless> ... a spec anssik is working on
16:54:04 <timeless> ... to add a csp added to the origin/html file
16:54:11 <timeless> ... so you can tighten the policy of the html document
16:54:21 <timeless> Claes: i don't see that here
16:54:27 <timeless> [ Link dropped by kenneth_ ]
16:54:56 <timeless> [ marcosc reads 1.1 Example 1 ]
16:55:02 <timeless> marcosc: you can have one from http, one from meta
16:55:05 <timeless> ... then also from here
16:55:10 <timeless> Claes: thanks
16:55:20 <timeless> marcosc: for people interested in the spec
16:55:25 <timeless> ... should we fold this into the spec proper?
16:55:30 <timeless> ... we can do this for FirefoxOS
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16:55:37 <timeless> kenneth_: for this, we need to fix the URL scope
16:55:39 <timeless> marcosc: yeah
16:55:45 <timeless> ... right now it would apply to just start-url
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16:55:50 <timeless> mounir: don't you have issues
16:55:57 <timeless> ... where manifest is loaded, and then this won't apply?
16:56:00 <timeless> marcosc: yes
16:56:04 <timeless> ... primary case is
16:56:09 <timeless> ... but yeah, we need to solve that
16:56:15 <timeless> ... primary case was for packaged apps
16:56:18 <mounir> s/manifest is loaded/manifest is not loaded/
16:56:18 <timeless> ... not super ideal
16:56:22 <timeless> ... it's why it's sitting outside
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16:56:27 <timeless> ... the main UC is packaged
16:56:36 <timeless> ... we need to consider those UCs more fully
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16:56:47 <timeless> ... PhoneGap uses this
16:56:49 <timeless> [ Cordova ]
16:56:58 <timeless> mounir: if we have more and more of this
16:57:06 <timeless> ... this CSP thing
16:57:07 <HZ_> HZ_ has joined #webapps
16:57:14 <timeless> ... it only works if you load the webapp from the manifest
16:57:18 <timeless> ... in a packaged web app scenario
16:57:23 <timeless> ... or FirefoxOS
16:57:29 <timeless> ... but in normal web browsing scenario
16:57:38 <timeless> ... but the spec is clear that you don't need the manifest
16:57:43 <timeless> ... it has to be done lazily
16:57:51 <timeless> ... which means the CSP rules aren't active
16:57:59 <timeless> ... but if we have more UCs for eager loading of Manifest
16:58:01 <chaals> q?
16:58:04 <timeless> ... maybe we could make it happen
16:58:19 <timeless> marcosc: we've been very careful to not put Manifest on the critical path for performance reasons
16:58:25 <timeless> ack chaals
16:58:37 <timeless> chaals: to kenneth_, we understand that for i18n, you could have horrible things
16:58:42 <timeless> ... we have bilingual markets
16:58:49 <timeless> ... Khazakhstan/Ukraine
16:58:56 <Shige> Shige has joined #webapps
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16:59:02 <timeless> ... .ua, it would have Khazakh and Russian
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16:59:18 <timeless> marcosc: how does user today select preferred language?
16:59:26 <timeless> chaals: button on page
16:59:37 <timeless> marcosc: why not rewrite the page/url then?
16:59:47 <timeless> ... this is part of a lazy load
16:59:53 <timeless> ... by that point you've made your decision
16:59:59 <timeless> kenneth_: maybe we should have spec text
17:00:11 <timeless> marcosc: curious case of dynamically changing
17:00:19 <timeless> ... if you kicked off a manifest load
17:00:24 <timeless> ... and you change your link-rel
17:00:33 <timeless> ... maybe you need to cancel the manifest and get a new one
17:00:37 <ArtB> -> https://github.com/w3c/manifest/issues/253 The curious case of the vanishing\mutating link element
17:00:42 <timeless> ... I agree, but there are signals from user to web app
17:00:52 <timeless> ... we have pressure from Mozilla
17:00:58 <timeless> ... need to consider UCs
17:01:08 <timeless> kenneth_: would it help to have base manifest + per language manifest?
17:01:14 <timeless> chaals: sort of a pain in the butt
17:01:21 <timeless> ... one model in the issue is a fairly lightweight approach
17:01:22 <HZ_> HZ_ has joined #webapps
17:01:24 <timeless> ... names+icons
17:01:26 <darobin> --- HTML 5 is a REC --- :)
17:01:28 <timeless> ... lazily do it
17:01:42 <timeless> ... do it only for locales
17:01:43 <adrianba> q?
17:01:59 <timeless> ... having to do this as 2 lines is better than 6
17:01:59 <tantek> tantek has joined #webapps
17:02:05 <timeless> ... but thousands of lines will be bad
17:02:13 <timeless> marcosc: requests i have is scope creep
17:02:17 <timeless> ... but then define languages the app supports
17:02:22 <timeless> ... then the data isn't complete
17:02:24 <timeless> ... what does it mean
17:02:38 <timeless> chaals: you don't need to list them, just look through the JSON
17:02:42 <timeless> ... i'm arguing for a dual model
17:02:55 <timeless> ... we have yandex.ua, yandex.kz, yandex.ru
17:02:56 <sicking> q+
17:03:02 <timeless> ... they have the appropriate languages for those locales built in
17:03:13 <timeless> ... we probably wouldn't include Turkish in the Ukrainian Manifest
17:03:24 <timeless> kenneth_: can't you just generate the manifest?
17:03:28 <timeless> ack sicking
17:03:45 <timeless> sicking: i agree there's a need to be able to upload multiple languages in the same thing
17:03:54 <timeless> ... i don't think we should solve client side localization for the web
17:03:57 <timeless> ... in it
17:04:10 <timeless> ... Mozilla has done complicated localization investigation
17:04:14 <timeless> ... Plural
17:04:19 <timeless> ... Gender
17:04:23 <timeless> ... 2, 3 count
17:04:31 <timeless> ... this becomes very hairy
17:04:31 <adrianba> q+ Kevin_Hill
17:04:42 <timeless> ... we've researched for years
17:04:46 <timeless> ... we've done localization for manifest
17:04:50 <timeless> ... i don't know if it's used at all
17:04:57 <timeless> ... it's so lacking in capabilities
17:05:08 <timeless> mounir: why do you need that if you're just localizing the title
17:05:15 <timeless> ... i assume it's just the fields in the app title
17:05:18 <timeless> chaals: name and icon
17:05:24 <timeless> ... no need for count/gender
17:05:38 <timeless> ... marcosc says "please don't use the clunky FirefoxOS model"
17:05:51 <timeless> ... i'm sympathetic to "let's not create the ultimate client localization thing in manifest"
17:05:57 <timeless> sicking: is it worth doing something really crappy
17:06:06 <timeless> ... i'd rather people work on how to do client side localization
17:06:12 <timeless> ... i don't see w3c working on it
17:06:15 <timeless> ... i'd love someone to do it
17:06:29 <timeless> chaals: action sicking to write it up?
17:06:30 <timeless> [ laughter ]
17:06:34 <timeless> q?
17:06:36 <timeless> ack Kevin_Hill
17:06:46 <timeless> Kevin_Hill: for l10n discussion
17:06:53 <timeless> ... I'd hate to see localizing the app
17:06:59 <timeless> ... i could see localizing Offline
17:07:03 <timeless> ... and basic fields
17:07:07 <timeless> chaals: absolutely
17:07:13 <timeless> ... i don't think anyone is suggesting that
17:07:20 <timeless> ... other things you want feedback on?
17:07:29 <timeless> ... or other feedback people want to give you?
17:07:32 <timeless> marcosc: we need to
17:07:36 <timeless> ... what we have here
17:07:39 <timeless> ... doesn't let you define
17:07:49 <timeless> ... all the things you need to make a web app you can take offline
17:07:53 <timeless> ... / install locally
17:07:59 <timeless> ... we need to have that discussion
17:08:03 <timeless> ... we need the right people in the room
17:08:07 <timeless> ... we need to work out scope issue
17:08:11 <timeless> ... -- the biggest blocker
17:08:17 <timeless> ... how it relates to ServiceWorkers (SW)
17:08:23 <timeless> ... it lets you relate to homescreen
17:08:30 <timeless> ... the bits that are there, it's pretty cool
17:08:35 <timeless> ... Chrome/FirefoxOS
17:08:44 <timeless> mounir: the next big thing is Scope/SW Scope
17:08:53 <timeless> ... we need Manifest and SW define Scopes [compatibly]
17:09:01 <timeless> ... maybe Manifest defines Scope and SW uses it
17:09:14 <timeless> chaals: i agree modular i18n, it's nice/small/handy
17:09:19 <timeless> ... let's try to get it shipped
17:09:25 <timeless> ... before we boil the ocean
17:09:29 <timeless> ... we can do that in v1.1
17:09:36 <timeless> marcosc: we need to have these discussions
17:09:39 <timeless> ... come talk to us this week
17:09:43 <timeless> ... we have time
17:09:55 <timeless> chaals: i'd invite you to talk to those guys directly
17:09:58 <JonathanJ3> JonathanJ3 has joined #webapps
17:10:01 <timeless> ... on our side, they're in Russia and Ukraine
17:10:06 <timeless> marcosc: i put some ideas
17:10:07 <jhund> just added my comments on loc to https://github.com/w3c/manifest/issues/211
17:10:12 <timeless> ... worth having a look at that
17:10:17 <timeless> chaals: any more on this?
17:10:18 <timeless> q?
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17:10:49 <timeless> Topic: Permissions API
17:11:37 <timeless> [ Break until 11am ]
17:11:42 <Zakim> -Olli_Pettay
17:12:31 <timeless> [ chaals searches for a Chair ... since everyone with Chair experience is going to the AC meeting ]
17:12:42 <Shige> Shige has joined #webapps
17:13:14 <timeless> chaals: ok, marcosc will chair
17:13:45 <Zakim> -anssik
17:15:05 <timeless> RRSAgent, draft mintues
17:15:05 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'draft mintues', timeless.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
17:15:10 <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
17:15:10 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/28-webapps-minutes.html timeless
17:16:47 <Zakim> -Laszlo
17:19:45 <ArtB> Present+ Robin_Berjon, Ali_Alabbas, Benjamin_Poulain, Bryan_Sullivan, Dan_Appelquist, Ted_Oconnor, Joerg_Heuer, Marcos_Caceres, Mounir_Lamouri, Sam_Ruby, Shijun_Sun, Stephan_Steglich, Travis_Leithead, Kevin_Hill
17:19:51 <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
17:19:51 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/28-webapps-minutes.html ArtB
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17:59:05 <Zakim> +Laszlo
18:00:56 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
18:01:06 <smaug> Zakim, [IPcaller] is Olli_Pettay
18:01:06 <Zakim> +Olli_Pettay; got it
18:01:14 <smaug> Zakim, nick smaug is Olli_Pettay
18:01:14 <Zakim> ok, smaug, I now associate you with Olli_Pettay
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18:07:33 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
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18:07:36 <anssik> zakim, [IPcaller] is me
18:07:36 <Zakim> +anssik; got it
18:08:11 <Travis> scribe: Travis
18:08:16 <Travis> scribeNick: Travis
18:08:36 <Travis> Topic: Permissions API
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18:09:11 <Travis> q?
18:09:27 <mounir> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2014JulSep/0389.html
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18:09:58 <Travis> mounir: It is very simple.
18:10:11 <Travis> ... whether to know if a site has access to a specific permission.
18:10:36 <Travis> ... [describes the API shape]
18:11:07 <Travis> ... Many API defintions require permission and try to abstract the permissions--creates a poor user experience.
18:11:16 <Travis> ... many developers will try to find workarounds.
18:11:26 <Travis> ... WebRTC is an example.
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18:12:02 <Travis> ... Abstracting permission status for website worked well when sites used new features but not often.
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18:12:25 <Travis> ... now it's more common. Cite: hangouts needs WebRTC (it's required)
18:12:42 <Zefa> Zefa has joined #webapps
18:12:43 <Travis> ... Issues: Should we have a specific permissions API or add permissions to every API that needs it.
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18:13:35 <Travis> richt: If I've never been to the site, I don't know if I have permission (obviously).
18:13:47 <Travis> ... if I just store something like a cookie, why isn't that sufficient?
18:13:52 <Travis> mounir: That seems hacky.
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18:14:05 <Zakim> -timeless; got it
18:14:09 <Travis> ... There could be an issue if you inject adds.
18:14:33 <Travis> ... They could just use your permission if they find your cookie. It's a security issue.
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18:14:40 <Travis> richt: This can be solved...
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18:15:09 <Travis> mounir: you inject a script in your own origin. If you put your token in local storage they can just read it.
18:15:18 <Travis> richt: any idea on how to solve the security issue.
18:15:35 <Travis> marcosc: well, you know the effective script origin... you could block it.
18:15:59 <Travis> ... on IOS it tells you if some app is using something in the background--you can detect and control it.
18:16:16 <Travis> ... You could move it to the server, or try to prevent on the client.
18:16:36 <Travis> richt: in GUM, I could just set a flag and read it when I come back...
18:16:57 <Travis> marcosc: You should be able to clear permissions separately from cookies, etc.
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18:17:19 <Travis> mounir: Cookies is not really the right solution to the problem.
18:17:33 <Travis> ... another solution is to sandbox the ad-injection.
18:17:34 <Travis> q?
18:17:36 <mounir> q?
18:17:59 <Travis> marcosc: We talked a bit about use-cases. Was there an idea about being able to group permissions?
18:18:18 <Travis> ... example: I need geo and camera access. How does that work.
18:18:19 <Travis> ?
18:18:34 <Travis> mounir: something that is planned: permissionchanged event.
18:18:40 <gludi|2> gludi|2 has joined #webapps
18:18:47 <Travis> ... there was a sec permission meeting in paris: they discussed this API
18:18:58 <Travis> ... in WebRTC context, you don't have camera, but do have mic.
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18:19:09 <Travis> ... camera icon could be enabled/disabled based on permission status.
18:19:22 <Travis> ... as soon as you are allowed to read permission status, you are allowed to track it.
18:19:39 <Travis> mounir: Any implementer feedback?
18:19:52 <Travis> sicking: I think this looks good
18:20:03 <Travis> marcosc: any concern about this?
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18:20:36 <Travis> sicking: no. It's syntax. It doesn't really matter where it lives.
18:20:51 <Travis> ShijunS: Suggest take topic to WebRTC meeting for feedback
18:21:00 <Travis> ... there is no "middle" layer in WebRTC
18:21:09 <Travis> sicking: Well, that doesn't change anything...
18:21:28 <Travis> ... site could add nav.permission.has('camera') and it would know whether it would succeed or not.
18:22:00 <Travis> ... many sites want to be aware before the implementation would throw a permission prompt to the user.
18:22:52 <Travis> ShijunS: Scenario: visit a page, then navigate back. It doesn't necessarily mean the user wants to automatically grant permission.
18:23:19 <Travis> marcosc: What would you folks like to see? More than what we have here?
18:23:35 <Travis> ShijunS: Can work through offline before talking to WebRTC.
18:24:15 <Travis> mounir: I will circulate more widely. Web Apps may not take this (scope question). Perhaps it will go to webappsec?
18:24:36 <Travis> ??: Would it apply to packaged apps?
18:24:49 <Travis> mounir: packaged apps may be out-of-scope.
18:25:07 <Travis> sicking: I see no reason why it wouldn't work. You can use this to ask for permission, just to check for position.
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18:25:30 <Travis> mounir: depends on how your packaged apps work. Perhaps you don't want to allow this for your packaged apps.
18:25:59 <Travis> richt: Let's say I ask, and get a 'denied'. Now my app has to tell the user how enable permission (there's no way to be re-prompted)
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18:26:27 <Travis> marcosc: If you could re-request it, that might work...
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18:27:05 <Travis> mounir: Our data shows that people that deny really mean it. Otherwise they ignore it.
18:27:06 <adrianba> q+
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18:27:25 <Travis> mounir: In many browsers, there's a third option (just ignore it)
18:27:43 <Travis> richt: I'm talking about the iOS shortcut into the apps permission settings.
18:28:22 <Travis> mounir: If you say no, it means no/never. This is a UA specific problem (about UX)
18:28:23 <Travis> ... I expect it will change in the future.
18:28:31 <Travis> richt: My point is that its very hard to undo a permission reject.
18:28:34 <npdoty_> q?
18:28:38 <npdoty_> ack adrianba
18:28:43 <Travis> adrianba: I agree with Rich. I think that this is a problem.
18:29:02 <Travis> ... If I visit a site, and wasn't expecting a prompt and now I click on no-never, then I'm stuck.
18:29:27 <Travis> ... another example: facebook asking for location. But then I change my mind... how do I (as the developer) do that?
18:29:44 <Travis> ... Does the app do the query?
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18:30:15 <sicking> q+
18:30:17 <Travis> ... Does the app have to have a database of the 1000's of mobile devices and show the user how to disable/enable.
18:30:46 <Travis> ... Perhaps a time-based model--if you just asked 5 minutes ago, don't re-prompt, if its been a year, maybe re-ask.
18:31:29 <Travis> ... the point of the API is to not show he prompt if its rejected. There's nothing for the UA to do here.
18:32:04 <Travis> sicking: I also agree that this is a problem--not necessarily with this API. It's not in the 'has' request--it's in the asking (say in Geoloc.)
18:32:10 <npdoty_> sicking proposes iReallyReallyMeanIt parameter
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18:33:01 <Travis> mounir: I think Ade meant that with this API folks wouldn't even bother asking. Whereas before they might ask again because they wouldn't know.
18:33:12 <Travis> ... I think we may be able to solve that problem later.
18:33:20 <Travis> richt: 1st step: accept that there is a problem
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18:33:51 <Travis> mounir: Agree, it is a problem. I don't know the # of people who deny, but I think it's soo low, it's practically no one.
18:34:08 <Travis> ... Basically, there's just one guy who presses deny.
18:34:21 <Travis> ... it's not an even distribution.
18:34:34 <Travis> richt: I also have some data (it's different than your data)
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18:34:58 <Travis> mounir: 90% of folks are saying "i don't know"
18:35:19 <Travis> ... adding something to Geolocation for "I really really need this permission"--> then everyone will use that!
18:35:29 <Travis> ... now my problem is explaining how to undo that.
18:35:47 <Travis> ... it would be great if users could access the permissions to review/change the permissions.
18:35:57 <Travis> ... rather than having each UA explain the process.
18:36:52 <Travis> mounir: I think it's a bad idea to have a way to access Chrome settings.
18:37:09 <Travis> adrianba: I agree we don't have to do this immediately.
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18:37:44 <Travis> ... Like Jonas' point, it's interesting to have the 'no I really need it' that could be called after a deny.
18:38:01 <sicking> q+
18:38:13 <Travis> ... and if you did have such a centralized method, what would it do? Maybe taking the user to the settings would be OK?
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18:39:03 <Travis> mounir: The 'i really mean it' means that they would ask for permission after they were denied, right? Seems not very useful at that point, because you have to trust the website...
18:39:32 <Travis> sicking: You could treat the has() to a call to the underlying API...
18:39:47 <Travis> Kevin_Hill: I'm probably that one guy clicking deny.
18:40:00 <npdoty> if we treat has() as a call to the API, that sounds a lot like the current situation (with geolocation at least), and has some advantages
18:40:04 <Travis> ... If the site says it can't provide the experience.
18:40:15 <Travis> ... The time factor is pretty important.
18:40:32 <Travis> ... It's not a yes/no decision for all time.
18:40:44 <npdoty> q+
18:40:59 <Travis> mounir: I don't think the API is going against that. It's a decision the browser has to make for its user.
18:41:18 <mounir> q?
18:41:40 <Travis> ??: If I denied something, maybe I just want to be reminded that I denied and want to be reminded.
18:41:43 <npdoty> that's often how popup blockers work
18:41:48 <npdoty> s/??/Joannes/
18:42:03 <Travis> richt: Lots of browsers do provide that... icon next to the URL--but browsers all do this differently.
18:42:26 <Travis> .. would be nice to point the user to the same place across devices. Can be done in a couple of clicks.
18:42:51 <mounir> ack sicking
18:42:56 <mounir> ack npdoty
18:43:00 <Travis> npdoty: Came late... treating the has() call to a call to the underlying API.
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18:43:28 <Travis> ... current way this is done: by calling the geolocation directly and getting a callback. It's easier for the UA to decide based on heuristics.
18:43:45 <Travis> ... at least for a while on iOS/Safari, it wouldn't deny forever; at least for 24 hours.
18:44:05 <Travis> ... Another advantage: it requires some cost. It may have to show something to the user.
18:44:55 <Travis> ... if you could determine whether someone else had asked, you could avoid the call. Many sites are conscious about being the source of a permission prompt.
18:45:30 <Travis> marcosc: We could track the effective origin of the call to the permission access and make a decision based on that.
18:45:51 <Travis> npdoty: It's been hard to do that tainting.
18:46:00 <Travis> ... It's hard to be sure.
18:46:09 <Travis> marcosc: next steps?
18:46:20 <Travis> mounir: I started writing an official draft; not done yet, but soon.
18:46:43 <Travis> ... need implemation feedback. We have some security issues. Clear Apple is not supporting.
18:46:44 <npdoty> mounir: because an embedded script can create a new script element on the page, and that script element will have the effective origin of the host page
18:47:12 <Travis> ... in Chrome we are interested in implementing by EOY, but not shipping. We want something experimental and to know if it can ship next year.
18:47:29 <npdoty> q+ to remind about use cases
18:47:44 <Travis> mounir: Finding a home for this is important. Probably webappsec. DAP also volunteered to host.
18:48:08 <mounir> ack npdoty
18:48:08 <Zakim> npdoty, you wanted to remind about use cases
18:49:05 <Travis> npdoty: If we could document the use cases (a concise list) of things we want to fix, and perhaps we can explore an alternate proposal? Seems like DAP had a permission spec a while ago...
18:49:35 <lgombos> link to DAP spec that i also helped to edit - http://dev.w3.org/2009/dap/perms/FeaturePermissions.html
18:49:36 <Travis> mounir: Not a big fan of solving use cases one-by-one. Will create a mess.
18:50:23 <Travis> ... we should definitely solve privacy issues.
18:50:54 <Travis> npdoty: [not an expert] effective script origin is hard.
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18:51:46 <Travis> mounir: The origin-mixing problem just makes it very hard to safely ask permissions.
18:52:24 <Travis> marcosc: The tracking may not be a bad practice for some sites...they may want to collect this data!
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18:52:47 <npdoty> yes, I would like if we could move away from ever embedding scripts from another origin in the same browsing context, but I think we're a long, long way from that
18:52:58 <Travis> marcosc: The assumption that the web will be locked down by CSP may contradict some business goals.
18:53:27 <npdoty> that there are other security issues currently is not a reason to ignore new privacy/security issues we might introduce.
18:53:29 <Travis> marcosc: Any final thoughts/comments?
18:53:32 <Travis> ... no?
18:53:37 <Travis> ... that's a wrap.
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18:54:04 <Yves> lunch break
18:54:20 <Zakim> -anssik
18:54:46 <Zakim> -Laszlo
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19:16:54 <timeless> s/adds/ads/
19:17:24 <timeless> s/IOS/iOS/
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19:59:05 <Zakim> + +1.781.428.aabb
19:59:23 <timeless> Zakim, where is 781?
19:59:23 <Zakim> North American dialing code 1.781 is Massachusetts
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19:59:38 <timeless> Zakim, aabb is lgombos
19:59:38 <Zakim> +lgombos; got it
19:59:54 <timeless> Zakim, lgombos is Laszlo
19:59:54 <Zakim> +Laszlo; got it
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20:17:13 <ArtB> scribenick: ArtB
20:17:28 <ArtB> Topic: SysApps specifications
20:17:46 <ArtB> -> http://www.w3.org/2012/sysapps/#roadmap SysApps Spec Roadmap
20:18:16 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
20:18:26 <anssik> zakim, [IPcaller] is me
20:18:26 <Zakim> +anssik; got it
20:18:34 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
20:18:47 <lgombos> Zakim, [IPcaller] is me
20:18:47 <Zakim> +lgombos; got it
20:19:30 <rniwa> rniwa has joined #webapps
20:19:32 <ArtB> zakim, who's here?
20:19:32 <Zakim> On the phone I see Portland, anssik, lgombos
20:19:33 <Zakim> Portland has chaals, ArtB, Yves, sicking
20:19:33 <Zakim> On IRC I see rniwa, myakura, Zefa, lgombos, sam, ArtB, tomoyuki, jhund, jrossi, glenn, darobin, gludi|2, chaals, jsbell_, spoussa_, jungkees, bkardell_, kenneth_, anssik, RRSAgent,
20:19:33 <Zakim> ... bryan, Zakim, smaug, kochi1, kochi, paul___irish, mihnea_____, MarkS, plinss, marcosc_, tyoshino, igrigorik, stryx`_, stryx`, MikeSmith, hober, slightlyoff, tobie, astearns,
20:19:34 <Zakim> ... cwilso, timeless, scheib, hayato_, krit, cabanier, jsbell, mkwst___, Domenic, FerasM__, dcooney___, pdr__, Hixie, richt, skddc, renoirb, krijnhoetmer, gavin, schuki, panzana`
20:19:55 <sicking> sicking has joined #webapps
20:20:48 <ArtB> AB: this is informational session re SysApps WG
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20:21:11 <ArtB> MC: my personal observation is that most of SysApps specs are not progressing very well
20:21:19 <npdoty> npdoty has joined #webapps
20:21:27 <ArtB> … the group is starting the process of rechartering
20:21:45 <ArtB> … Mozilla is thinking about if it still wants to be part of SysApps
20:21:54 <adrianba> adrianba has joined #webapps
20:22:03 <ArtB> … We see value in at least 2 of SysApps' APIS
20:22:05 <Claes> Claes has joined #webapps
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20:22:13 <ArtB> … Task Scheduler and TCP UDP Sockets
20:22:35 <ArtB> … We would like to test the water, so to speak, to see if these could fit into WebApps' charter
20:22:35 <sicking_> sicking_ has joined #webapps
20:22:43 <ArtB> ML: I agree with Marcos
20:22:55 <ArtB> … there is also Background Sync on GH
20:23:04 <ArtB> … I don't think that is within a WG yet
20:23:13 <ArtB> … but it is something to consider too
20:23:19 <ArtB> … so those 3 specs
20:23:34 <ArtB> JS: think Scheduler is a good fit
20:23:40 <ArtB> … not sure about Task Scheduler
20:23:55 <ArtB> … uses a security model that is not consistent with the Web
20:24:02 <ArtB> … thus I think that will be problematic
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20:24:27 <ArtB> LG: Samsung is editor of Task Scheduler
20:24:33 <ArtB> … we recently made some updates
20:24:46 <ArtB> … part of the lack of progress is the Service Worker dependency
20:24:53 <ArtB> … but that is becoming resolved
20:24:54 <jcraig> jcraig has joined #webapps
20:25:03 <ArtB> … so I think Task Scheduler can now progress
20:25:16 <ArtB> … want it to progress regardless of where the spec "live"
20:25:19 <forty4> forty4 has joined #webapps
20:25:22 <ArtB> … would like to get more feedback
20:25:35 <Claes> q+
20:25:58 <kn1> kn1 has joined #webapps
20:26:15 <ArtB> AB: perhaps someone from SysApps can ask WebApps to review the specs?
20:26:35 <ArtB> CN: re the TCP UDP Sockets spec
20:26:54 <ArtB> … this API can't be exposed to any web site because of sensitivity
20:27:05 <ArtB> … the sec model can't be solved here
20:27:07 <anssik> http://www.w3.org/2012/sysapps/tcp-udp-sockets/#security-and-privacy-considerations
20:27:13 <ArtB> … hosted web app sec model needs work
20:27:21 <ArtB> … to reuse the Web's security model
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20:27:43 <ArtB> … re the API itself, provides interfaces to UDP and TCP sockets
20:28:02 <ArtB> … within the last month I have re-written the spec to use WHATWG's Streams spec
20:28:12 <ArtB> … the API is now mostly complete
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20:28:24 <ArtB> … still needs work on secure Web sockets
20:28:32 <ArtB> … need to also add support for TLS
20:28:34 <spoussa_> q+
20:28:56 <ArtB> SP: we have implemented quite a few of SysApps' specs
20:29:12 <ArtB> … mostly experimental in Tizen but also some Android versions too
20:29:35 <ArtB> … App URI implemented by us
20:30:10 <ArtB> MC: if we have >=2 impls, then by all means we should move them forward
20:30:24 <ArtB> … but if we don't should drop them
20:30:31 <ArtB> … we need to discuss this in SysApps
20:30:45 <Claes> q+
20:30:50 <ArtB> … for App URI the test suite is complete
20:31:02 <spoussa_> q-
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20:31:31 <ArtB> CL: re SysApps deliverables, there is a Phase 1 list and a Phase 2 list
20:31:37 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
20:31:37 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/28-webapps-minutes.html MikeSmith
20:31:52 <ArtB> … high on the priority list is Media Storage
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20:32:04 <ArtB> … we are implementing it on Chromium Android
20:32:16 <ArtB> … will ask SysApps this week to take that on
20:32:41 <MikeSmith> q+ to comment
20:32:44 <ArtB> ML: during SysApps' meeting, a topic is what could be moved to WebApps
20:33:04 <anssik> q+ to gauge interest in moving some of the experimental SysApps work (that do not fit into WebApps' scope) back to the incubation phase into a "SysApps Community Group"
20:33:15 <Claes> ack me
20:33:22 <ArtB> MS: I don't think Media Storage is web safe
20:33:46 <ArtB> … I think the only specs that could move to WebApps are those specs that use Web security model
20:34:31 <ArtB> … SysApps' original charter assumes Adam Barth was going to write Security Model spec for these classes of apps and a Runtime spec
20:34:40 <ArtB> … that didn't happen and isn't going to happen
20:35:00 <spoussa_> q
20:35:01 <ArtB> … therefore, these specs would need to be refactored to fit into the Web sec model
20:35:13 <ArtB> … don't think we want to WGs specifying Web APIs
20:35:16 <spoussa_> q?
20:35:28 <ArtB> JS: the Sockets API isn't clear how to expose to Web apps
20:35:46 <ArtB> … we learned alot, v-a-v FirefoxOS re runtime sec models
20:35:54 <MikeSmith> ack MikeSmith
20:35:54 <Zakim> MikeSmith, you wanted to comment
20:36:10 <ArtB> … want to make things as Web like as possible with only minor changes
20:36:15 <ArtB> … f.ex. some events
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20:36:27 <ArtB> … We don't want and diffs
20:36:48 <ArtB> … My hope is that what Adam had envisoned isn't actually needed
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20:37:18 <ArtB> MS: unless there is a compelling reason, think all Web APIS should be moved to WebApps
20:37:31 <ArtB> MS: SysApps wants to drop specs
20:38:05 <ArtB> MC: for all specs with 2 or more impls, we want those to advance
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20:38:33 <ArtB> AK: I want to poll people at the meeting about moving more experimental work back to the incubation phase
20:38:42 <ArtB> … WG is not appropriate place for incubation
20:38:59 <ArtB> … Is there interest in moving some of SysApps' specs in a less formal setting
20:39:03 <ArtB> … f.ex. a Comm Group
20:39:12 <ArtB> MC: that's already happening with Bluetooth
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20:39:33 <ArtB> AK: true; but what about some others and is a new CG the best way
20:39:48 <ArtB> … if/when SysApps closes, useful bits should be redirected
20:39:56 <ArtB> MC: I think that should happen by market pressure
20:40:14 <ArtB> … don't want to create a CG unless there is some critical mass to move a spec forward
20:40:24 <ArtB> … that's what's happening with BT CG
20:40:35 <ArtB> AK: there could be some other specs to move
20:40:45 <ArtB> … and advance them
20:41:01 <ArtB> … if something has already been published, an issue is how to relicense the spec
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20:41:13 <ArtB> … Chairs need to start discussions about those
20:41:22 <ArtB> MC: we also need to get Legal advice
20:41:27 <ArtB> ML: Chairs are OK to do that
20:41:41 <ArtB> AK: want to get the widest participation
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20:41:53 <ArtB> … Manifest was one that already moved to WebApps
20:42:04 <ArtB> … Could be some other candidates
20:42:18 <ArtB> … f.ex. Raw sockets and Task Scheduler could go the same way
20:42:18 <lgombos> q+
20:42:21 <ArtB> q?
20:42:29 <MikeSmith> ack anssik
20:42:29 <Zakim> anssik, you wanted to gauge interest in moving some of the experimental SysApps work (that do not fit into WebApps' scope) back to the incubation phase into a "SysApps Community
20:42:33 <Zakim> ... Group"
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20:42:50 <ArtB> LG: we should not speculate here what SysApps will do
20:42:59 <ArtB> … but would be good to get some WebApps feedback
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20:43:54 <spoussa_> q?
20:44:21 <ArtB> AB: seems like SysApps should decide what it wants to move forward and then ask WebApps about their interest in taking them
20:44:25 <ArtB> LG: that sounds fine
20:44:32 <ArtB> ack lgombos
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20:44:57 <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
20:44:57 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/28-webapps-minutes.html ArtB
20:45:02 <Zakim> -anssik
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20:48:03 <dka> Intersting URL Factoid
20:48:09 <dka> Will.i.am’s name is also a URL.
20:48:16 <dka> In the future, all names will also be URLs.
20:48:25 <dka> So we’d better get this right.
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20:50:18 <rubys> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-appsawg-uri-scheme-reg-04
20:53:37 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
20:53:57 <smaug> Zakim, [IPcaller] is Olli_Pettay
20:53:57 <Zakim> +Olli_Pettay; got it
20:54:31 <smaug> Zakim, nick smaug is Olli_Pettay
20:54:31 <Zakim> ok, smaug, I now associate you with Olli_Pettay
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21:02:26 <ArtB> Topic: URL
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21:02:32 <Travis> scribe: Travis
21:02:35 <ArtB> ScribeNick: travis
21:02:37 <Travis> scribeNick: Travis
21:02:43 <ArtB> Scribe+ ArtB, Travis
21:02:56 <Travis> MikeSmith: We are gathered here together... to talk URL
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21:03:22 <Travis> ... There was objection that URLs were being specified in HTML.
21:03:35 <dka> @brkadell_ looks like it’s just http.
21:03:35 <Travis> ... Adam Barth wrote a draft in IETF then lost interest.
21:03:40 <ArtB> -> https://url.spec.whatwg.org/ WHAT WG URL spec
21:03:45 <Travis> ... Larry become interested in an update to IRI
21:04:05 <Travis> ... it was rechartered. They didn't make much progress [ correction] "nothing was done" (by me)
21:04:20 <Travis> ... We still needed a spec for URLs.
21:04:35 <Travis> ... Anne went ahead and wrote a spec for URLs
21:04:43 <Travis> ... And now we're done.
21:04:48 <Travis> ... Ok. Maybe not.
21:04:58 <Travis> ... Some folks aren't happy with Anne's spec.
21:05:07 <ArtB> q?
21:05:11 <Travis> ... Suggested we create a spec that we can be happy with.
21:05:36 <Travis> ... rubys is taking a closer look at test results of URLs
21:05:46 <Travis> rubys: Will be pasted some links
21:05:51 <rubys> https://url.spec.whatwg.org/#url-writing
21:05:56 <Travis> s/pasted/pasting
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21:06:20 <Travis> rubys: This is the living standard. A scheme must be registered... (not done)
21:06:28 <dka> relevant to the discussion, a TAG resolution taken on 1-october of this year on this topic: “We welcome present and future moves of the WHATWG to move toward a process which adheres to the openstand principles, and we note that in the case of URL spec, there has been a lot of cross talk, input from other groups, and a Bugzilla and GitHub-based process allows an openness to input which is valuable. In principle there is no barrier to W3C documents referencing WHATWG
21:06:29 <dka> documents normatively. In the specific case of URL being referenced from HTML5, we would prefer that the W3C HTML5 spec should reference the WHATWG URL specification and that between W3C and WHATWG we should continue to resolve any remaining technical and editorial issues in the spec.”
21:06:31 <rubys> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-appsawg-uri-scheme-reg-04
21:06:35 <Travis> ... It is obvious that more work needs to be done.
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21:07:06 <Travis> ... This defines how you register new things. It references the work being done in URL and vice-versa.
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21:07:23 <Travis> ... Seems like they could link to one another. Progress?
21:07:52 <mnot> q+
21:07:59 <Travis> Larry: Timing is right to review this new process document.
21:08:06 <Travis> ... goal is to make it easier.
21:08:17 <Travis> ... There is provisional and permanent.
21:08:26 <Travis> ... Permanent is expert reivew
21:08:26 <ArtB> -> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-appsawg-uri-scheme-reg-04 Guidelines and Registration Procedures for URI Schemes
21:08:26 <ArtB>                   draft-ietf-appsawg-uri-scheme-reg-04
21:08:32 <ArtB> q?
21:08:33 <Travis> ... Provision is more lenient
21:08:40 <Travis> ... Time is right to look this over and review.
21:08:47 <ArtB> ack mnot
21:08:49 <ArtB> q?
21:09:11 <Travis> markN: We talked about this back in London.
21:09:42 <Travis> ... It appears a unanimous decision was not to have competing specs in WHATWG and W3C.
21:09:55 <ArtB> q?
21:09:59 <Travis> ... Way forward was to use W3C process to move forward.
21:10:07 <rubys> q+
21:10:31 <Travis> Dan: Resolution is specifically about URL and for this case.
21:10:44 <Travis> ... It's being developed with good intentions by Anne.
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21:11:12 <Travis> ... We were happy to recommend the reference to the WHATWG spec.
21:11:30 <Travis> ... I take issue with the W3C spec as a copy. I see it as a reprint.
21:11:50 <Travis> marcosc: Director makes a decision and was part of the decision.
21:12:06 <Yves> not using his director's hat
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21:12:14 <Travis> rubys: I'm not interested in that discussion. I'm interested in the technical work.
21:12:24 <Travis> ... I do want an opportunity to discuss the technical work
21:12:29 <ArtB> ack rubys
21:12:35 <Travis> ... [clapping]
21:12:43 <ArtB> q+ Marcos, Larry