00:00:09 no way to limit broadcasting to groups, circles, etc. 00:00:43 q+ r: pubsubhubbub also missing mgt parts or the control flow 00:00:45 fewer and fewer feed providers are supporting it now 00:00:50 q+ re: pubsubhubbub also missing mgt parts or the control flow 00:01:32 q+ 00:01:37 q+ 00:01:57 Lloyd_Fassett - open source? 00:02:51 evanpro - not sure, gogle published only the spec 00:03:26 I think once you reinvent it for ACL'd posts you might as well drop it and lose the complexit yand bagage 00:03:28 With respect to the Federation Protocol, I would hope that we can define a protocol that can support multiple solutions and not limit to LDP or webmention or any other. There are those that are focused on OData driven solutions for outbound feeds and experimentation around federations. 00:03:29 ack MarkCrawford 00:04:07 MarkCrawford: there are those using OData for their outbound feeds 00:04:19 MarkCrawford: including SAP and Microsoft 00:04:20 Re SubPubHubbub: Lack of access control is a showstopper for social business 00:04:56 MarkCrawford - must it be based on LDP, or webmention - newer cases based on social data 00:05:26 q? 00:05:35 q- 00:05:52 To clarify on MarkCrawford's comment, the social data is published using oData 00:06:19 q+ 00:06:42 There was a conversation around mapping oData and RDF in W3C ages ago 00:06:47 ack tantek 00:06:47 tantek, you wanted to reply to elf re: verifying relationships in a distributed social network, why we nounify things even like following 00:06:49 not sure where that went. 00:08:16 tantek - delayed response how to verify relations - every verb becomes a post - list of followers can be linked 00:08:40 evanpro - digital signatures can be another idea 00:09:34 reminds me of hosted and signed assertions in https://wiki.mozilla.org/Badges 00:09:38 ack Lloyd_Fassett 00:09:45 ack jasnell 00:09:45 q- 00:10:41 jasnell - many of these techniques based on pings / fat pings (content included) 00:10:49 ack evanpro 00:11:20 evanpro - pompeio - inbox endpoint that you ping 00:11:28 pump.io 00:11:34 pumpio 00:11:53 http://pump.io/ 00:12:04 we're not ready, open to proposal, may need to wait til next f2f 00:12:12 ACTION: hhalpin to cycle with Wendy and Google on PUSH licensing 00:12:13 Created ACTION-6 - Cycle with wendy and google on push licensing [on Harry Halpin - due 2014-11-04]. 00:12:24 Arnaud - what is the next step? not clear yet 00:12:58 for federation, perhaps we can start a wiki page like we did for social api? 00:13:01 wow! 00:13:07 oshepherd: wow 00:13:58 harry - few suggestions - one draft on http-based api and a strawman proposal for federation 00:14:11 oshepherd: very nice! 00:14:25 ldp work , action handlers work already have owners 00:14:49 jasnell, we never got to http://jasnell.github.io/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/activitystreams2.html#actions 00:15:11 https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Social_API_candidates 00:15:18 elf: not yet. I believe we'll be talking actions in detail tomorrow 00:15:27 Micropub is on there 00:15:36 jasnell, cool! :) 00:16:23 tantek - wiki page for api proposals - add more content? 00:16:27 we have this now: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Social_API_candidates 00:16:33 that wiki page looks like its covering everything 00:16:41 sandro - ldp only a place holder 00:17:30 shall we start: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Federation_candidates ? 00:17:32 pffft. EVERY TIME I need to log into w3.org on a new device I have to do the forgot my password thing 00:17:35 Arnaud - try to wrap-up 00:18:33 Arnaud - showing agenda for tomorrow 00:20:39 annotation wg - move to 3:30 (to avoid conflict w/ AC meeting) 00:22:51 I wish you all nice dinner! :) 00:23:01 is agenda on wiki right for tomorrow? 00:24:17 KevinMarks: yes 00:24:45 I'll be back on tomorrow evening (afternoon your time, I guess). See you all tomorrow 00:24:49 so 9am start? 00:25:11 KevinMarks: what are you doing right now? 00:25:15 Come have dinner with us! 00:25:19 KevinMarks, do you have any recs for food in the area? 00:25:23 Faultline Brewery? 00:25:26 We need to find a place to eat nearby? 00:25:26 trying to figure out a nearby place to eat 00:25:35 tantek, thanks once again for setting up talky! 00:25:36 I'm having dinner at home shortly, sorry 00:25:39 RRSAgent, generate minutes 00:25:39 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/28-social-minutes.html harry 00:25:44 hm, not many good palces over that side 00:25:52 elf-pavlik: you're welcome! glad it worked out. 00:26:36 Yeah, its 00:30AM here. I'll be back tomorrow after work :) 00:29:49 to eat there you're either in the hotels nearby or a drive into town 00:33:17 KevinMarks: there's all the places in the Mercado Center too 00:33:23 I think we're considering the Italian place 00:33:25 Lloyd_Fassett has joined #social 00:33:26 forgot the name 00:34:17 Informal dinner right now at Tomatino 3127 Mission College Blvd, Santa Clara, CA 95054 00:40:21 bblfish has joined #social 00:52:28 tantek has joined #social 01:06:33 tantek has joined #social 01:08:15 npdoty has joined #social 01:12:34 tantek has joined #social 02:11:36 bblfish has joined #social 03:15:04 bblfish has joined #social 03:17:42 nvdbleek has joined #social 03:27:47 Arnaud has joined #social 03:49:55 jasnell has joined #social 04:07:58 jtauber has joined #social 04:48:03 jtauber has joined #social 05:14:36 npdoty has joined #social 05:16:32 bblfish has joined #social 05:45:19 tantek has joined #social 06:19:56 bblfish has joined #social 06:25:14 bblfish has joined #social 07:25:47 bblfish has joined #social 08:04:11 bblfish has joined #social 10:07:53 bblfish_ has joined #social 10:35:47 nicolagreco has joined #social 11:09:50 nicolagreco_ has joined #social 11:10:31 nicolagreco has joined #social 11:36:29 nvdbleek has joined #social 12:01:53 tantek has joined #social 12:04:07 nicolagreco has joined #social 12:05:59 nicolagreco has joined #social 12:13:26 bblfish has joined #social 12:15:52 cmhobbs has joined #social 12:35:05 elf-pavlik has joined #social 13:14:34 nicolagreco has joined #social 13:24:00 Zakim has left #social 13:27:27 pfefferle has joined #social 13:36:37 pfefferle_ has joined #social 14:06:54 cmhobbs has joined #social 14:23:59 barnabywalters has joined #social 15:12:32 are the 0.8.2 consumer changes different than 0.9.0 consumer rewrite? 15:22:35 Arnaud has joined #social 15:25:17 nvdbleek has joined #social 15:28:46 Arnaud has changed the topic to: Social Web WG: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg - Next meeting agenda: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2014-10-27#Tuesday_28_October_-_With_breakouts - logs: http://socialwg.indiewebcamp.com/irc/social/today 15:31:51 jtauber has joined #social 15:32:12 AdamB has joined #social 15:33:36 jasnell has joined #social 15:38:39 shepazu has joined #social 15:40:35 lehawes has joined #social 15:41:02 MarkCrawford has joined #social 15:44:07 jasnell has joined #social 15:45:47 trackbot, start meeting 15:45:49 RRSAgent, make logs public 15:45:50 Zakim has joined #social 15:45:51 Zakim, this will be SOCL 15:45:51 I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot 15:45:52 Meeting: Social Web Working Group Teleconference 15:45:52 Date: 28 October 2014 15:45:54 rrsagent, this meeting spans midnight 15:46:32 EdK has joined #social 15:48:20 Arnaut: we did pretty good yesterday. We started out with a loose agenda but ended up filling the whole day. It is always hard at the beginning when we have no preset issues, so we did pretty well. 15:50:15 Arnaut: It is hard to solve a problem that is not well defined. When we talked about Social API, people don't really know what we mean - client or server. If we come to consensus, we can do a better job of solving defined problems. The IG has a broader scope for use cases, and can come up with use cases over time whereas the WG has to clearly identify what we want to focus on in a shorter period of time. 15:51:02 jasnell_ has joined #social 15:51:17 q+ 15:51:33 Arnaut: There is a feeling that the WG doesn't need to redefine use cases, but we should have a document that we can point to that identifies what we want to focus on. If there is a document that we can leverage, then fine, but we have to agree to do this. 15:52:35 dromasca has joined #social 15:52:43 Arnaut: The IG has agreed to initially focus on those that are most important to the WG. the IG report is not important, but we need something for the WG that we can point to that clearly identifies what we are working on and what problems we are trying to solve. 15:52:53 elf: - Tanteck is not here yet 15:54:10 ack sandro 15:54:28 Arnaut: identified use cases prove extremely useful as we move forward to develop our deliverables. This issue came up several times yesterday which just reinforce my thinking. 15:55:31 Sandro: do we need only 3 or so valid use cases to do our work? 15:55:41 s/Arnaut/Arnaud/g 15:55:43 wseltzer meant to say: rrsagent, this meeting spans midnight 15:56:03 can somebody throw in here the link to the swat0 use cases sandro mentioned? 15:56:07 Sandro: a paragraph or so should be sufficient for each use case 15:56:16 AnnBassetti has joined #social 15:56:17 http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/federatedsocialweb/wiki/SWAT0 15:56:17 http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/federatedsocialweb/wiki/SWAT0 15:56:24 thanks elf! 15:56:33 and others! 15:57:33 zakim, room for 4 15:57:33 I don't understand 'room for 4', Arnaud 15:57:51 elf-pavlik: What's the talky address? 15:58:01 bryan_ has joined #social 15:58:14 elf -- we're going to try to get you going with Talky 15:58:18 Lloyd_Fassett has joined #social 15:58:19 I have a web cam 15:58:32 ok, we're trying to get talky set up 15:58:57 Thank You :) 15:59:15 elf: the presentation we are about to see is in the IG wiki main page 15:59:21 http://talky.io (room: socialwg) 15:59:30 Link to IG presentation is http://www.w3.org/wiki/File:Social_IG_TPAC_Update.pdf 15:59:54 MarkCrawford, got it! 16:00:01 thx lehawes! 16:00:03 elf-pavlik talky should be good to go 16:00:25 \o/ 16:01:23 i'll just watch and listen 16:01:26 pleaes go on! 16:02:01 no worries 16:02:15 we can sort it out during coffee break 16:02:34 wy has joined #social 16:03:14 AnnBassetti, I see slides directly from pdf 16:03:26 Larry: Social IG Update. Agenda is to talk about work that has preceeded us, review our charter/scope/deliverables, give status update, look at example use cases and next steps. 16:04:19 Larry: slide 2 - review Pre-IG use case work. Social Web Incubator Group has 5 years of effort and at least one solid use case in their final report. 16:04:51 Larry: the other very influential report is the Cloud standards customer Council which has 4-5 solid use cases. 16:04:58 elf, OK .. trying to show you the person presenting ... in this case Larry Hawes .. guy in blue shirt, dark hair 16:05:14 Larry: we have also brought in those already identified by the WG as well as some of our own. 16:05:19 perfect! thanks AnnBassetti :) 16:06:26 Larry: slide 3: charter and scope. Chartered to deliver use case report by 12/31/2016. Intend to harvest existing and produce new use cases that illustrate non-technical requirements. 16:07:04 elf, any idea why my video is split? 16:07:29 no, but let's just roll with it for now 16:07:35 Larry: Slide 4 Deliverables. Use Case and requirements report; Social architecture report (Leveraging Headlights report); social vocabularies inventory. 16:07:35 ok, sorry 16:08:05 Larry: Slide 5 - Membership. Enough to get good work done 16:09:02 Larry: Slide 6 - Process. 16:09:11 Sandro: When is the IG meeting this week? 16:09:20 Larry: during the ad hoc time today 16:11:17 KevinMarks has joined #social 16:11:53 it wasn't me! 16:11:54 wei_james has joined #social 16:13:10 jasnell has joined #social 16:13:13 ok, good luck with overcoming those issues! 16:13:14 Larry: Slide 7 - Status. # meetings, task forces. Scenarios are just a narrative for use cases. Use Case is more detailed per our template which will give us a formal way to document and publish them. 16:13:58 I'll keep an eye on the room! you folks can got out get some fresh air :) 16:22:56 bblfish has joined #social 16:35:57 jasnell has joined #social 16:36:03 evanpro has joined #social 16:38:24 jtauber has joined #social 16:39:50 can you hear, elf? 16:39:50 resuming 16:40:01 still on slide 7 status 16:40:03 yes i can hear 16:40:19 we have the doors open, behind me ... is there too much ambient noise 16:40:54 AdamB has joined #social 16:40:58 i can hear good (even better than yesterday!) video got frozen though 16:41:11 Larry: working to categorize use cases and we have a first stab at that on the wiki 16:41:40 hmm .. I see people moving on video 16:41:41 Larry: Slide 8: just read 16:42:11 elf, do you need me to restart video? 16:42:18 AnnBassetti, yes please 16:42:21 q? 16:42:22 Larry: Slide 9 - Next steps: discussed 16:42:30 harry has joined #social 16:42:39 dromasca has joined #social 16:42:54 hmm .. maybe I need to drop off and come back in 16:43:02 q+ re: any implementations we derrive usecases from? eg: PLP has one https://github.com/hackers4peace/plp-docs 16:43:21 LarryHawes: Going over a slide-set describing use-cases 16:43:25 ... see wiki for updates 16:43:28 Larry: switched to wiki and discussed how you can find the use case TF from the social ig wiki. 16:43:32 sandro, can you unmute yourself so i can hear? 16:43:36 ... most of focus on profile federation and social data syntax use-cases 16:43:37 please :) 16:43:46 thx! 16:43:53 ... we want to work on API and Human interaction, but that's next 16:44:04 MarkCrawford: We've created a few links to non-existent wiki pages 16:44:14 npdoty has joined #social 16:44:32 ... we will create web-pages in the wiki 16:44:37 ... and use blanks to refine categorization 16:44:44 ... currently red ones are from the W3C Headlights report 16:44:52 ... there's a bit of duplication, will try to refine it. 16:45:06 LarryHawes: Jump to the use-case themselves 16:45:10 sandro, please mute again :) 16:45:23 ... mapping to the CRUD framework 16:45:25 AnnBassetti, can you unmute please? :) 16:45:27 ... social profile creation 16:45:34 ... its in the template 16:45:36 done 16:45:44 great! thank you :) 16:45:45 can you hear? 16:45:46 ... narrative, actors, goals of actors, success scenario, success criteria, failure criteria 16:45:49 Larry: Social Profile Creation Use Case. We want your feedback on both the template as well as the content. 16:45:54 ... feel free to give us input on the template itlsef 16:45:58 now there's a big fan behind me .. is that too noisy? 16:46:13 a bit but not a big deal 16:46:53 Larry: Social Profile Creation wiki page 16:48:04 https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialig/Use_Case_TF/Profile_Use_Cases 16:48:24 Larry: Working with an openID model around social profile creation such as google that could then be federated to other social profile maintainers. 16:50:09 Larry: Noted Success Scenario and Success and Failure Criteria. 16:50:48 Not crazy about verb: federate. 16:51:00 Sandro: copied or mirrored 16:51:14 AnnBassetti, can you ask tantek to mute? 16:51:49 Harry: do you want to copy, open, or share? 16:52:04 copy on request to another system or automatically update other systems? 16:52:13 AnnBassetti, your laptop has better sound then tantek's webcam 16:52:15 James: should at least spell out the different options 16:52:33 ok 16:53:11 better? 16:53:18 Larry: some could have graphic representation. We also need to add id for original submitter. 16:53:54 AnnBassetti, yes and with 2 cameras i can now see everything :D 16:54:03 yes, cool 16:54:16 ?? How do we get comments? 16:54:16 I wish I could zoom my view 16:54:43 + remote control ;) 16:54:51 :-) 16:54:56 use cases need to be on individual wiki pages, have comment section, and tolerate inline changes to leverage wiki concept 16:55:19 oh, are we still doing our meeting today? 16:55:27 I guess everyone else is at TPAC 16:55:30 https://talky.io/socialwg 16:55:42 cwebber2, join us :) 16:56:00 Larry: federation of Profile Information to a nNew Network or System. 16:56:47 JonathanJ3 has joined #social 16:56:50 Mark: there are two James' in the room :-) ... please show my comments as jasnell to differentiate 16:57:00 Larry: read Social Profile Updates UC 16:57:24 harry has joined #social 16:57:41 Larry: read social Profile Deletion UC 16:58:23 +q 16:58:35 q+ 16:58:56 elf-pavlik, feel free to type question as well 16:59:02 JonathanJ3 has joined #social 16:59:12 JonathanJ3 has joined #social 16:59:15 ack elf-pavlik 16:59:15 elf-pavlik, you wanted to discuss any implementations we derrive usecases from? eg: PLP has one https://github.com/hackers4peace/plp-docs 16:59:23 https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialig/Use_Case_TF/Profile_Scenarios#Portable_Linked_Profiles 16:59:29 http://www.open-steps.org/introducing-the-new-open-knowledge-directory-with-plp-profiles/ 16:59:46 dret has joined #social 16:59:50 elf: we have a prototype for the use cases here, wondering if we have others to compare? 16:59:59 we have implementation and i wonder about other implementations 17:00:06 Larry: elf is pointing to a scenario, not something in our UC format. 17:00:08 so we can compare and test interoperability 17:00:30 Arnaud: I don't understand elf's point. 17:00:43 Larry: this is detail oriented, but not UC 17:00:52 do we track somehow implementations? 17:01:30 Arnaud: I am interested in - we just saw an overview of what we saw as profiles. Is that capturing what we are thinking, or is there others that we also need to capture so that my problem can be solved. 17:01:31 ack dromasca 17:01:45 ?? Does profile include privacy options? 17:01:57 q+ to ask how this connects to identity, and changing identity 17:01:59 tantek has joined #social 17:02:01 Larry: It should, and i think we tried to capture. 17:02:16 ?? I define privacy as between the owner and provider. 17:02:26 Larry: No, we don't currently capture that? 17:02:56 Larry: we have not yet gotten to requirements out of these yet. My vision is you build high level use cases and then build requirements out of that. 17:03:31 ?? Is your federated system considered an end to end type of relation? 17:03:47 Larry: that is an implementation choice and there should be a way to control 17:04:06 q+ 17:04:09 ack jasnell 17:04:27 ?? = dromasca 17:04:29 q+ 17:05:01 james: so, the actors in this case we cant create or delete and the system controls. We may be the subject, but not the owner. there is an additional role - profile owner might be the providor. 17:05:04 ack sandro 17:05:04 sandro, you wanted to ask how this connects to identity, and changing identity 17:05:10 s/Is your federated system considered an end to end type of relation?/Is your federated system considered an n to n type of relation? 17:05:10 dromasca meant to say: ?? = dromasca 17:06:03 whoo, finally connected 17:06:07 hi cwebber2 :) 17:06:19 Sandro: the way I think of profiles as different than this. Profiles as the art of identity. The way I talk about people is their profile. You frmaed this as like facebook. What are the identifiers? 17:06:29 So profiles are for personas rather than persons? 17:06:40 Larry: We do not plan to touch ideentity. there is a relationship between these. 17:07:08 cwebber2, can you hear OK? 17:07:12 yup! 17:07:25 cool 17:08:01 harry has joined #social 17:08:12 q+ 17:08:37 q- 17:08:46 ack evanpro 17:09:24 evan: I want to express concern about identify management, it is a big topic that has been addressed by other organizations and we may want to defer. 17:09:48 Ann: won't be solved here. 17:09:58 JonathanJ3 has joined #social 17:10:41 +1 harry: avoid use of the word "identity", and just deal with profiles 17:11:16 Harry: I have a simple rule - dont use the word Identity as there is confusion when it is used. littany of organizations who deal with this. For this particular use case the word profile helps clarify that we are talking about editing and sharing profiles. 17:11:31 Harry: access control is something that is very hard. 17:12:33 Arnaud: Charter did not address the access control issue because it could be a rat hole so we agreed that we would only address requirements/use cases. Next version of charter can address once we are clear on what we are concerned with. 17:12:36 q? 17:12:40 ack harry 17:12:41 ack harry 17:13:21 can you guys hear Tantek? (at far end of room from me) 17:13:35 good enough 17:13:44 good 17:13:47 tantek: I share evan's concern about the use of the word federation. Need to be more clear about what you mean. A lot of us use more specific terms like syndication which is much more specific. 17:14:03 tantek: pushing or pulling is something you can implement to. 17:14:35 Larry: I hope it would be as we do requirements as to what choice we are making. We are purposely trying to find a vague term and once we get to requirmements we can refine. 17:14:48 Larry: may be a difference between business and development. 17:15:35 tantek: whatever thing you are federating, you use the same identifier for that across the network. 17:16:06 tantek: phone number and email are examples of federation across networks 17:16:53 tantek: example of breaking federation is twitter t.co. that is not federation as it breaks the identifier. 17:17:12 tantek: It's only federation if you're using the original identifier 17:17:17 tantek: both openID and indiauth use the same identifier. 17:17:27 q+ 17:17:27 Evan: we have different ideas about this. 17:17:33 sando: is there another word? 17:17:39 ack evanpro 17:18:33 tantek: looking it up in the context of technology passport and passport number is an example of federation across countries. 17:18:40 q+ 17:18:56 q+ to share that within the enterprise its common that people have the same identifier / identity across systems 17:19:03 me: tanteks vision strikes me as a federated network for a specific id rather than a federated profile. 17:19:17 ack AnnBassetti 17:20:20 q+ 17:21:21 ann: trying to understand the distinction between identifier and federation. IDs like phone number, passport number use to identify me, but I don't see that as federated. the example I have in my brain is where we all create our user profile in boeing where the sys creates a generic profile and the subject can then amplify. We then have sharepoint which creates a separate profile. We want to create where sharepoint pulls the profile. 17:21:47 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federation_%28information_technology%29 17:21:53 Tantek - that is not federation, its centralization. 17:22:10 Ann: I don't understand how the passport is federation and not identification 17:22:13 tantek, maybe worth capturing your point somewhere in https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg#Hypotheticals 17:22:35 q+ 17:22:38 I think Tantek has a very good point BTW 17:22:52 jasnell has joined #social 17:22:53 or https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg#Federation 17:22:55 action - need to define what we mean by federation 17:22:55 Error finding '-'. You can review and register nicknames at . 17:23:00 i.e. decentralized creations of identifiers that are accepted across different systems 17:23:00 but arguing is hard 17:23:01 q- 17:23:33 Ann: we need to collectively define. 17:23:57 and have consensus on our use of these terms 17:24:04 ISSUE: need glossary for terms used in use cases e.g. "federation" 17:24:04 Created ISSUE-5 - Need glossary for terms used in use cases e.g. "federation". Please complete additional details at . 17:24:29 q? 17:24:38 ack AdamB 17:24:38 AdamB, you wanted to share that within the enterprise its common that people have the same identifier / identity across systems 17:26:01 jasnell_ has joined #social 17:26:55 q+ to say that business use cases can extend beyond the internal company, i.e. collaborations beyond (in response to AdamB 17:27:20 ack MarkCrawford 17:27:45 q? 17:27:47 q+ 17:28:37 ack EdK 17:28:37 EdK, you wanted to say that business use cases can extend beyond the internal company, i.e. collaborations beyond (in response to AdamB 17:29:08 bblfish has joined #social 17:29:29 q? 17:29:35 PaulJeong has joined #social 17:29:35 ack jasnell_ 17:29:42 +q 17:29:55 q+ 17:30:02 http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-scim-use-cases/ 17:30:30 MarkC: I want to know, as we share profiles across systems, that we have commonality on profile component definitions 17:30:59 ack dromasca 17:31:13 Ann: yes, we will come to the day when we have external partners and suppliers logging in at our firewall 17:31:26 ... and we will need to federate profiles in each direction 17:31:48 ack evanpro 17:32:15 MarkCrawford has joined #social 17:32:37 when two or more orgs agree to federate, they agree to treat each others' identifiers as first-class citizens, use them directly, and expect that users on each system may use them directly, without requiring "local" wrappers/versions of each identifier. 17:32:53 all - for the last ten minutes my typing was not posting in irc. If you spoke, please enter your comments in irc so we don't loose them 17:33:26 Larry: now that we have a better understanding, we can refine what we are doing. 17:33:38 It’s interesting the different perspective that a corporation brings to these situations. Corporation have one unique identifier for an employee, the ‘employee identifier’. That identifier is used in all the systems I use throughout the course of the week so identity isn’t nearly as much of a problem for corporations. 17:33:40 Evan: I want to get more involved 17:33:40 MarkCrawford, cany you copy paste from your machine? 17:33:55 q? 17:34:05 we seem to be talking about federation of identity information - not all belongs to the social space 17:34:38 i posted the url of prior art work in the scim wg in the ietf - http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-scim-use-cases/ 17:34:54 Examples of federated orgs and identifiers: phone companies & phone numbers; email hosts & email addresses; countries & passport numbers 17:35:10 Non-example: US social security numbers: single provider, many consumers. 17:35:20 There is what we refer to as Human Resources (HR) data and then user provided data. A person cannot delete their HR data but can remove their user provided information. 17:35:36 EdK discussed that primary "federation" is about profile information between dissimilar systems, primarily between business collaboration efforts e.g. suppliers, university partnerships, etc. This IMHO is beyond identity - for example SKILLS is a profile component, not an identity component. 17:36:19 Arnaud: before we leave, we need to talk about the next F2F meeting. I am hoping that what we have already accomplished these two days convinces folks about the importance of F2F meetings. Perhaps a two day meeting is most reasonable. 17:36:25 half-way examples: OpenID and IndieAuth - many *providers* of OpenID & IndieAuth identities, however, not all *providers* also consume all identifiers from other providers. 17:37:17 Arnaud: The F2F is hosted by one of the WG members. Provide a meeting room big enough for the number of expected participants, food, etc. 17:37:23 annbassetti/tantek: Passports are a particularly good example, because they're issued by multiple authorities (countries) and recognised/used by multiple entities (other countries). 17:37:42 Ann: we should be fair to geographic considerations. I need to get permission before I can commit. 17:37:57 q+ 17:38:06 q+ 17:38:07 Sandro can also volunteer 17:38:15 fair to geograhic considerations - Europe? ;) 17:38:23 Tantek: if folks don't show up they feel left out. 17:38:46 +1 Europe :) 17:38:54 tantek: Sandro suggested that we try to co-locate with e.g. an IndieWeb camp. 17:39:41 if doingit near MIT, might be interesting to do it near libreplanet 17:39:44 time-wise 17:39:49 general back and forth on different locations 17:39:54 some relevant people might already be in cambridge :) 17:39:58 pool? 17:40:06 thanks Tsyesika 17:40:20 (libreplanet is the FSF's conference) 17:40:23 are you, cwebber2? 17:40:30 Arnaud: not trying to settle anything yet. Question is timing. List of possible dates and locations. 17:40:44 AnnBassetti: I'm not in cambridge, but I will be for libreplanet 17:41:02 tommorris and oshepherd are also Europe I believe 17:41:05 aha 17:41:21 oshepherd? 17:41:22 how many days? 2 ...? with possible interop event included to test implementations? 17:41:25 welcome bret on talky! 17:41:28 evan: Perhaps align with due dates when we are expecting to have somehting like a federation protocol that we can discuss? 17:41:30 It's about 8 folks from Europe, 6 folks from Asia/Austrailia 17:41:39 You are not getting sound from me right? 17:41:44 ?? Doodle poll? 17:41:51 +1 pool 17:42:01 Harry, and, how many from NAmerica? 17:42:04 rhiaro: I've resigned from the WG for personal reasons, but thanks for the thought. 17:42:08 bret you're muted if you're the person who just joined :) 17:42:14 Harry: typically WGs do 6 months. 17:42:15 cool 17:42:26 ahdinosaur has joined #social 17:42:34 (sometimes my mic still makes noise on Zakim if I mute client side.. no idea why) 17:43:02 Harry: we should rotate so we are not geographically biased. 17:43:16 bret, we're not using Zakim 17:43:22 I vote march around the same time as libre planet 17:43:24 I'm going to be proposing a federation hackathon at libreplanet, for those who might be there 17:43:29 as I'm likely to be in boston then 17:43:42 evanpro: maybe we should coordinate on doing such a thing 17:44:34 cwebber2: that'd be nice 17:45:40 I'm about to head over to the location. 17:46:09 Should I bring my external mic for later on? 17:46:11 Mostly 17:46:23 KevinMarks: yeah audio is pretty rough 17:47:02 KevinMarks, do you have mic with protection from wind? 17:47:14 general discussion around dates. 17:47:16 cwebber2, Tsyesika: that's the end of March, too far out 17:47:16 First week of February in Cambridge, MA works fine for me 17:47:59 There is wind? I normally put a towel over it for that 17:48:26 evanpro: gotcha 17:48:43 I can probably make something in feb in cambridge also 17:50:08 First week of March is better for me 17:50:17 ISSUE: make sure we have teleconferencing equipment for next F2F 17:50:17 Created ISSUE-6 - Make sure we have teleconferencing equipment for next f2f. Please complete additional details at . 17:50:25 discussion around providing virtual attendance capabilities for future meetings 17:50:34 let's do next one in summer europe then :D 17:50:43 q? 17:50:45 second next 17:50:50 Cambridge MA is fine, also I can host in San Francisco at Mozilla SF for early March. 17:50:50 elf-pavlik: +1 17:50:55 Summer in Turin 17:50:56 ack evanpro 17:51:02 +1 Turin 17:51:22 evan: How do we push to a decision point? 17:51:31 Larry: don't we need to include those not here now? 17:51:39 npdoty has joined #social 17:52:02 arnaud: we need to make sure this is minuted and broadcast so that objections can be raised. 17:52:17 dromasco says there was good WebRTC support for remote participation for joint IETF / W3C meeting 17:52:17 tantek: wants to keep first week of march on table. 17:52:24 we need to find out how they did that 17:52:26 Arnaud: we can have poll 17:53:17 Arnaud to take action to set up doodle poll with different options 17:53:33 ACTION: arnaud to set up a doodle poll for next F2F, with 1st week of Feb and March 17:53:33 Created ACTION-7 - Set up a doodle poll for next f2f, with 1st week of feb and march [on Arnaud Le Hors - due 2014-11-04]. 17:53:41 q 17:53:42 Evan: suggest we have as a minimum the chairs and editors can make it to the meeting. 17:53:42 q 17:53:44 q+ 17:53:51 ack harry 17:54:12 can't hear now... 17:54:35 We will resume at 3:30 17:54:52 ack jasnell 17:54:56 background reading before joint meeting with annotations WG at 3:30: http://indiewebcamp.com/marginalia and http://indiewebcamp.com/fragmentions 17:55:25 claudio has joined #social 17:56:25 Yay for fragmentions 17:56:40 (biased, me?) 17:56:59 heh, probably a little 17:57:15 you folks on the camera ... I have to go to AC meeting .. break now, then others will have task force meeting. 17:57:21 they'll use Tantek's camera 17:57:26 see hyou later 17:57:32 thanks AnnBassetti have a good AC meeting! 17:57:38 which camera is pointing at the projector? seems to be the most clear 17:57:54 bret, frozen one? :D 17:58:07 well frozen now. Was working earlier 17:58:37 really, stayed frozen for me all the time ... 17:58:45 weird 17:59:00 webRTC is funky 17:59:09 cool - looks like I confirmed with elf-pavlik that we're live 17:59:19 tantek, unmute? 17:59:27 I'll be leaving that connection in the room for the next 4.5 hours but won't be here in person 17:59:41 yes 17:59:56 jtauber has joined #social 18:00:04 jasnell has joined #social 18:00:42 Of all days why did my Occulus Rift have to turn up today? :p 18:01:32 oshepherd, you want 3D stream? 18:01:46 elf-pavlik: No, I want to play with it :p 18:02:03 well you have your chance now for a bit... 18:02:24 Hah it'll probably take me that long to get it set up 18:02:42 npdoty has joined #social 18:07:03 oshepherd elf-pavlik pair it with https://www.flickr.com/photos/bretc/15466384617/ 18:07:55 bret: WTF is that? 18:08:04 360 webcam! 18:08:09 hah 18:08:25 cool! put it on a drone and fly around room ;) 18:10:38 bblfish has joined #social 18:10:58 evanpro has joined #social 18:11:15 On the subject of use cases, I added a couple of links to the wiki 18:11:17 https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialig/Use_Case_TF/Social_API 18:13:21 tantek has joined #social 18:14:32 AnnBassetti has joined #social 18:15:24 we do it now? 18:16:35 AdamB has joined #social 18:18:43 i just listen 18:18:53 jasnell has joined #social 18:19:05 scribenick: rhiaro 18:19:25 lehawes: Offical meeting of use cases TF begins 18:19:33 harry has joined #social 18:19:36 ... goal to talk about AS scenarios 18:20:46 EdK: Talking about internal and federated 18:21:02 lehawes: How will AS be used within Ford? 18:21:42 q+ re: tracking implementation efforts for use cases we gather and prioritizing them accordingly 18:22:06 EdK: Information streams, by IBM & Ford. Unique value proposition of social platform. Connecting people who don't normally connect, and to connect people with information that they wouldn't normally have connections with 18:22:20 ... Nodes aren't just individuals, but the information itself 18:22:52 ... Driven from core applications within the company, where information posted from the system itself, rather than by individuals 18:23:18 ... eg. all data centre incidents get published (server down, network congestion etc) 18:23:25 ... this information published into a stream as events 18:23:46 ... once issues are known, reduces calls to helpdesk 18:24:13 for those joining remotely... we're doing a quick ad hoc Social IG meeting. The full WG meeting is reconvening at 3:30 pacific 18:24:39 Thanks jassnell! 18:24:41 ... Also, if system posts there's an outage somewhere, somebody elsewhere is having the same issue, which allows issues being tracked and eg. escalated to global vs local 18:25:10 npdoty has joined #social 18:25:27 To clarify, this meeting is the Use Case Task Force subgroup of the Social IG 18:25:31 ... Need to bridge between social discussions around things, and the system itself. System doesn't have a concept of the social interactions going on 18:25:59 ... The social thread becomes an important part of how the system functions 18:26:06 q? 18:26:53 ack elf-pavlik 18:26:53 elf-pavlik, you wanted to discuss tracking implementation efforts for use cases we gather and prioritizing them accordingly 18:27:14 npdoty_ has joined #social 18:27:15 i see it important that we track implementation efforts for use cases and prioritaze them accordingly 18:27:16 go ahead elf 18:27:32 in WG we need feedback from people who implement AS etc. 18:27:37 elf: who is "we" 18:28:06 if no one implements use case i would prioritize it lower 18:28:12 ok 18:28:12 jasnell: For every use case, identify someone doing osmething with it - bit early 18:28:56 EdK: Proof of concept not necessarily implementation 18:29:26 elf-pavlik: Understood and agreed on prioritization. I think we're too early in process to begin doing that now, but should happen later. 18:29:29 Lloyd_Fassett has joined #social 18:29:31 right now we're in the process of identifying the use cases. Documenting implementers comes next. It's still too early and would be counterproductive to focus on implementations too much at this point 18:29:43 q? 18:30:53 EdK: Four or five procurement systems in use. The person making a request sends an email to someone who puts it into the system, then a buyer gets involved, then there's a finance system, then a recieving system 18:31:17 ... The person who needs the item isn't a part of any of those systems. So can't subscribe to notifications from those systems. 18:31:30 Reminder to self to harvest EdK's procurement use case from Social Business Community Group's work 18:31:31 ... Security/authorisation issue in large companies. 18:32:16 ... So subscribing is one part in the social system. Further, actions that can be taken on things in the stream 18:32:51 ... Using an embedded experience to grab data (if allowed), preserving the original security around the data object 18:32:54 tantek_ has joined #social 18:33:06 grantmacken has joined #social 18:33:19 ... Then to be able to take action about something with the same system, is beyond the normal definition of a social system 18:34:10 ... Notion of priorities in AS. If you're expected to take action, you need to be actively notified, not just see it by chance in the stream. 18:34:19 For those just joining the #social IRC chat, this is an ad hoc meeting of the Use Case Task Force of the Social IG. We're having an informal discussion of Activity Streams 2.0 related use cases until Noon'ish. 18:34:25 ... This is from the social business community 18:34:40 ... It was a proof of concept, not finished building. 18:35:59 Sounds like use cases should be focused on core functions of AS2 18:36:42 Lloyd_Fassett: Sounds like AS didn't have priorities, and now it does, that was the gap. 18:37:25 ... The standards we're discussing are generic, not specialised, but a hook for a specialised vocabulary 18:37:29 tantek has joined #social 18:37:32 ... Specialisations like domain expertise 18:37:53 dret has joined #social 18:37:53 ... But currently no way to hook that into AS? 18:38:01 jasnell: That's what JSON-LD context is for 18:38:07 ... you can have multiple contexts 18:38:27 ... publish specialised vocabs in a public location and add it as a context. Reciever can't necessarily do anything with it, but it can be processed 18:39:23 KevinMarks arrives! 18:40:24 R2-D2 style mic ;) 18:40:31 Lloyd_Fassett: So we need to delineate types of use cases 18:40:49 ... We're not going to worry about vertical issues, specialisations 18:40:51 elf-pavlik: yes, it's quite shiny too! 18:41:01 big question is: will AS2 *require* JSON-LD context mechanism, or allow the AS1 way of using terms. my preference would be to allow but not require JSON-LD contexts, and have a registry for namespaces so that people can make their vocabularies know to the world. these may be described in the JSON-LD way, or like the AS1 vocabulary: as a simple list of terms annotated with human-readable descriptions. 18:42:08 jasnell: Two camps of consumers with JSON-LD 18:42:15 ... some people just want JSON 18:42:18 ... some people want semantics 18:42:26 elf-pavlik: Good. Sorry, but we tried to make it better for you. :>) 18:42:40 thanks! much appreciated :) 18:42:42 ... We can have a publisher of an AS document write a document in more than one way. comes out the same regardless of whether you use JSON-LD 18:43:16 ... People looking at things from a pure JSON point of view can't interoperate, because every consumer has to understand JSON-LD 18:43:25 ... there's code available, it's not too difficult 18:43:31 KevinMarks_ has joined #social 18:43:32 ... but people who just do json might not like that 18:44:11 ... Some clients only care about one endpoint, so they're going to write their client to interoperate with that endpoint 18:44:21 ... and that's fine 18:44:21 ... if they want to optimise so they're only parsing json, that's fine 18:45:22 ... Publishers can add JSON-LD augmentations or not. It's the consumers who have the problem, not knowing what they'll be consuming 18:45:26 q? 18:45:32 in which cases exactly one can't treat JSON-LD as JSON? (not AS1 JSON) 18:45:41 KevinMarks: Adding more constraints doesn't necessarily make things work properly 18:45:50 jasnell: Key thing is we can't target / make it easy for both camps 18:45:57 ... (recognising that not everyone will be happy) 18:46:30 all of this will need to be answered in the processing model section of the AS spec: as a generic client, when you see AS data flowing by, what can you say about it? and also: in which ways can you rewrite AS data (as an AS proxy) without changing what it means? 18:46:58 adding JSON-LD extra to a JSON structure is fine, but requring them to be correct makes this much harder 18:47:20 dret: thanks for injecting that into the meeting record! 18:47:46 the key challenge is that if we allow publishers to use JSON-LD mechanisms, consumers MUST be capable of processing those, or we break interop 18:48:03 elf, JSON-LD always is JSON, of course, but for somebody with JSON-LD goggles, the world looks different. if you want to see the world the same way, you essentially have to implement JSON-LD. 18:48:07 EdK: Client-side resolution starts sounding like aggregation. Talking about resolving things into a thread so that the conversation makes sense. Keeping the social fabric seperated. It's useful to end user, but not to overall enterprise 18:48:20 jasnell if you MUST the LD parts you break interop directly 18:48:27 ... So question becomes: where is the connection between the system and the social? 18:48:38 dret, even if we recommend always using JSON-LD compacted with AS2.0 context? 18:48:38 publishers are not required to use the LD stuff 18:48:41 they MAY 18:49:43 ... Direction of discovery is an issue. User has to find something vs thing finding user through system 18:49:45 jasnell key question is if AS2 allows free-form JSON as AS1 did. this would be invisible to consumers with JSON-LD goggles. 18:50:11 Lloyd_Fassett: That's data-first. Kind of different from this group, which is profile-first 18:50:58 I thought JSON-LD was supposed to add context, not remove it 18:51:24 dret, can you post some concrete examples to mailing list? 18:51:34 the AS2 @context maps unknown properties to blank nodes, so they are at least preserved through the expansion algorithm 18:51:46 ... In data first, define the data well, and add the social layer on top 18:52:06 lehawes: To bring this back to AS, jasnell: are there specific use cases to help move forward 18:52:10 ..? 18:52:16 jasnell: No 18:52:34 jasnell if you say MAY JSON-LD, then JSON-LD is out of the picture in the processing model section, and there's just an appendix that explains why the base syntax supports JSON-LD, but processors have to be prepared to deal with any JSON. that will make life hard for people working with JSON-LD toolsets, because they cannot assume to always see everything through their JSON-LD goggles. 18:52:46 ... Where we use AS, it doesn't matter if it's coming from a system or a person. Something happens and we need to let people know what happens based on their relationship to the actor or the object 18:53:01 ... Entry point to a workflow / starting point to an interaction 18:53:06 are these old use-cases relevant? http://wiki.activitystrea.ms/w/browse/#view=ViewFolder¶m=Examples 18:53:08 ... I have to know what's going on in order to be able to respond to what's going on 18:53:40 ... AS is a lower priority than actions. Acting on something in context is the next step 18:54:28 ... Right now, push notifications send an action, but use their own format. Needs mapping to Android, iOS, webapps, etc. Need a consistent model for this. 18:54:41 EdK: Once you get to that, you want the response mechanism as well 18:54:47 ... to also be consistent 18:55:05 lehawes: So you would see this task force focussing on the actions / embedded experiences use case, rather than sharing the stream? 18:55:12 jasnell: Sharing is pretty well defined 18:55:25 ... AS is the latest iteration of this, been working on for years 18:55:33 ... We don't need to worry about documenting use cases for AS itself 18:55:40 ... But for embedded experiences, potential actions, we do 18:55:45 ... need use cases 18:56:15 ... This will be discussed more this afternoon. 18:56:30 lehawes: Any other comments? 18:56:42 Lloyd_Fassett: There are actions at the AS 2.0 level, then there are embedded actions? 18:56:47 jasnell: They're basically the same 18:57:01 ... AS lets you attach a Potential Action to any Activity 18:57:05 ... eg. potential http request or opening a browser view 18:57:15 ... describes specific actions (or commands) that can occur 18:57:20 ... eg for carrying out a like or a follow 18:57:34 Lloyd_Fassett: Can't that adapt to a market place scenario? 18:57:39 jasnell: Yes, that's one of the use cases being worked on 18:58:07 ... where multiple third parties make offers, and how you handle it depends on who is providing it, but it's all tied to the same 'offer' action 18:58:51 q? 18:59:02 EdK: It's the same offer, but if you already have a relationship with someone it might be different to if you don't - but implementation worries about that. 'Offer' action is the same 19:00:02 lehawes: Food market scenario can be fleshed out to become a use case 19:00:10 ... by Lloyd_Fassett 19:00:17 jasnell: another use case is pushing to mobile devices 19:00:25 ... pushing an activity out as a notification 19:00:46 ... We want to be able to integrate with notifications without having to write extensions to the mobile device APIs 19:01:26 ... Need simple declarative ways of describing what an action is supposed to do 19:02:20 KevinMarks: At the moment this is done by people embedding forms and iframes 19:03:01 jasnell: Currently you can say eg. you do a share by embedding this html 19:03:07 ... if it's a browser view, you do a share by opening this window 19:03:15 ... if it's a REST API, you do a share by passing these params 19:03:17 ... etc. 19:03:29 ... Currently no standards for deep linking 19:03:41 ... Every platform does it differently, and 3 or 4 competing efforts 19:03:56 ... 4 different for Android currently in use 19:04:05 lehawes: We need actions use cases 19:04:20 ... Post scenarios to turn into use cases please! 19:04:45 Not sure what you mean by "4 competing efforts" on Android for sharing things 19:04:49 Lloyd_Fassett: Could flesh out with jasnell if time 19:04:55 Erm, you fire off an ACTION_SEND intent 19:05:08 on android, you can claim http URLs as intent from an app; the OS manages contention - on iOS you need to define your own protocol per app and there is no contention resolution 19:05:22 ... it is a real-world scenario 19:05:42 KevinMarks_: Only if you're explicitly targetting another app. On Android sharing is a part of the platform 19:05:46 lehawes: We can get multiple scenarios around the same concept that can be normalised into one use case 19:06:17 Lloyd_Fassett: To do a marketplace you probalby need JSON-LD 19:06:22 jasnell: yes, for domain specific information 19:06:26 ... There are existing vocabs out there 19:06:27 on android, my app can claim http://twitter.com/* 19:06:35 the OS will manage contention over them 19:06:43 FYI http://blog.schema.org/2012/11/good-relations-and-schemaorg.html 19:06:43 on iOS behaviour is undefined 19:07:18 KevinMarks_: But claiming URIs isn't at all involved in the process of "sharing" things 19:07:25 Lloyd_Fassett: MarkCrawford says vocab task force should create a list of vocabs 19:07:31 To share things on Android you send an ACTION_SEND intent without a URI 19:07:33 lehawes: Watch out for licensing issues 19:07:34 see http://epeus.blogspot.com/2013/06/how-apples-ios-fragmentation-problems.html#connect+between+applications 19:07:39 ... but they should be on the list so we can eliminate things 19:07:43 ... so put everything on the list 19:07:51 jasnell has joined #social 19:07:57 ... might get ruled out, but don't have that constraint building list 19:08:02 ... Time to wrap up! 19:08:12 for finding vocabs: http://lov.okfn.org/dataset/lov/ 19:08:49 share is an OS verb on android that anyone can hook; on iOS this was hard-coded, just changed a bit 19:08:52 Lunch time! 19:09:11 enjoy your meal everyone!!! 19:09:51 Thanks everyone for your thoughts around scenarios and use cases related to action-oriented aspects of AS2! 19:10:29 "Note: If more than one third-party app registers to handle the same URL scheme, there is currently no process for determining which app will be given that scheme." https://developer.apple.com/library/ios/documentation/iPhone/Conceptual/iPhoneOSProgrammingGuide/Inter-AppCommunication/Inter-AppCommunication.html 19:11:54 KevinMarks_: Yeah. There seemed to be insinuation that there were ~4 ways to share things on Android. Maybe I was misreading the conversation 19:15:24 harry has joined #social 19:22:00 cwebber2, still with us? 19:25:34 Tsyesika, online? 19:25:40 yep 19:25:46 great! :) 19:26:02 i prepare comparison of actions in AS, schema.org and Hydra 19:26:13 and may use example of movie review with rating 19:26:29 do you have review/rate feature in MediaGoblin? 19:26:45 not at the moment, just commenting 19:27:02 would be a good feature to have 19:27:05 schema.org uses such example in their docs http://schema.org/docs/actions.html 'Example: Movie review site API with -input and -output' 19:28:19 cool, once i have it published maybe you could give me feedback? 19:29:14 okay, how long until you publish 19:29:25 you cought me as i was going off for the evening :P 19:29:46 oh, please just go ahead :) anytime in next days will work just fine! 19:30:28 okay cool :) feel free to ping me on here or via email and i'll pick it up tomorrow :) 19:30:32 I added a diagram to the wiki 19:30:33 https://www.w3.org/wiki/images/5/54/Social-api-layers.png 19:30:38 i think chris will be around later too 19:30:44 elf-pavlik: oh hi 19:30:50 Which I think might be useful to guide our ideas about the Social API 19:30:53 I didn't realize things were continuing, opening back up 19:30:58 ok, have a good one Tsyesika! 19:31:33 elf-pavlik: I did get your email btw 19:31:42 and will respond to it... I just got back from another conference 19:31:49 cwebber2, no rush! 19:32:09 evanpro, looks cool :) 19:32:44 elf-pavlik: it is! 19:32:56 evanpro: elf-pavlik: btw, I know it's maybe not directly in the scope of this working group, but I wonder if maybe it would be good to get feedback from here, esp from those with experience 19:33:49 tsyesika is currently overhauling our db schemas to handle the additions of federated activitystreams stuff 19:34:36 it's quite a lot of stuff to figure out how to handle moving this into a relational db design, especially given that simple foreign key patterns don't work anymore once you're about to link to just about anything (though we have some ways around we're investigating) 19:34:57 evanpro, do you understand my point with advantage of hypermedia controls over arbitrary paths like /evan/notes /evan/images /evan/friends /evan/meals /evan/books etc. ? 19:35:15 I'm not sure if there's anyone with experience or interest who might be interested in reviewing... it could be helpful, also, for mediagoblin to write up how we handled the schema in a relational db so other implementers can reference it 19:35:33 I realize that's out of scope of the wg specifically tho :) 19:35:35 elf-pavlik: yes I absolutely do 19:35:45 I think that's an API design issue that we'll need to address 19:35:47 cwebber2, please send it directly to WG (implementers) list, i don't see it out of scope at all! 19:35:55 elf-pavlik: okay, great! 19:36:01 Tsyesika: ^^^^ 19:36:06 The big advantage of arbitrary paths is that it's what social developers are used to 19:36:07 we'll talk tomorrow about doing that 19:36:20 in silo environments ... 19:36:26 Yep 19:37:03 similar as symetric relations like friends, we will face some need to change our way of thinking in federated environment 19:37:42 elf-pavlik: not sure where the arbitrary paths bit is being referenced from, but I agree it is important if I'm reading right 19:37:52 but i do get your point about people currently having certain expectations to APIs 19:38:14 cwebber2, we had this conversations yesterday, sorry for mixing conversations ... 19:38:21 esp since projects that are trying to add federation later may have their own URL schemes 19:38:22 ah :) 19:38:34 apologies if I'm jumping in unhelpfully 19:38:55 cwebber2, i recommend watching https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UkAt9XSOfaE 19:40:07 also https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KB94dIamAQc 19:40:18 elf-pavlik: okay, will watch... maybe tonight when unwinding :) 19:40:20 much shorter :D 19:40:37 second just 7min and IMO very relevant to MediaGoblin! 19:42:01 cwebber2, James will talk about Actions during next session - this 7min vid can give you great intro :) 19:42:17 elf-pavlik: aha, great! Tsyesika and I were trying to see how we might make use of them 19:42:39 am I right that in some ways they could be useful as a kind of flip side to webintents? 19:42:46 also Caley may solve your issues with relational database ... 19:43:19 ie, webintents has a user say "I want to favorite with this" whereas this might mean between services "you can favorite this with our tool here" 19:43:19 ? 19:43:21 I guess I can wait for the talk :) 19:43:46 How long until the next session? 15 min? 19:44:47 https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2014-10-27#Tuesday_28_October_-_With_breakouts 19:45:22 Currently geting a bunch ofn oise over the talky. elf-pavlik, an issue on your end? 19:45:48 no session now 19:46:14 next one in ~3h i think 15:30 their time 19:46:14 Yeah, thats why I presume you, they're offline :p 19:47:23 Maybe try muting yourself? 19:50:08 jtauber has joined #social 19:50:24 elf-pavlik: great video, thank you for sharing :) 19:51:15 welcome :) 19:51:35 relevant to GMG? 19:52:04 highly, I think! 19:52:25 elf-pavlik: one thing we have been figuring out how to deal with is that many mediagoblin sites can have different media types supported 19:52:34 and those media types may be configured to have certain features on / off 19:52:36 so you can't assume 19:52:44 for example? 19:52:46 this seems like the perfect way to broadcast what without assuming 19:53:29 with hypermedia you just include supported controls so client app will not expect features you don't provide! 19:53:38 elf-pavlik: well, the different media types is an easy one: we have images/video/audio/documents/3d models 19:53:43 ascii art ;) 19:53:52 by default, only images is turned on 19:53:54 but 19:54:08 yes, so audio would have 'listen' control and video 'watch' for example 19:54:13 right 19:54:17 there are some features, like geolocation support, which aren't on by default also for images 19:54:23 but you can turn them on 19:54:44 geolocation is a bad example, there are better, but I'd have to look at the config specs since I'm very jetlagged :) 19:54:50 but you get the idea. 19:54:58 cwebber2, do you have some form of collections / albums ? 19:55:11 elf-pavlik: we do, they're a bit crude, but we have a collections feature 19:55:21 BTW i think we SHOULD extract some use cases based on GMG features!!! 19:55:27 :D 19:55:55 expecially if you will work on implementing stuff and providing much needed feedback 19:56:01 yes, real-world implementation use-cases are great 19:56:06 elf-pavlik: http://mediagoblin.com/u/cwebber/collection/mediagoblin-rewards-2014/ 19:56:08 a collection 19:56:08 wilkie++ 19:56:10 wilkie has 2 karma 19:56:20 could be better 19:56:22 but they're there 19:57:13 elf-pavlik: I've somewhat wondered how we're going to express different media types with federation 19:57:23 we already have some... I mean, audio / video are represented 19:57:33 but stuff like presentations aren't.... I've figured json-ld will help make this cleaner 19:58:02 but one thing that the actions stuff seems to make really appealing is that it removes the assumptions/guesswork from stuff like audio / video playing 19:58:23 we can create types for them, for example sub types of http://schema.org/CreativeWork 19:58:31 elf-pavlik: ah great :) 19:58:35 they should be extensible enough. should be able to create an arbitrary object type. "image", "displayName" and "content" are all generic for all objects in AS and can be used to kinda represent them on systems that don't know what those object are. 19:58:57 and they you'd have a link to the actual content which is navigated in the normal way or something 19:59:30 so actually 19:59:47 one thing Tsyesika and I are discussing that I think is going to be cmplex 19:59:49 complex 20:00:00 is assuming you do something like youtube-style "subscriptions" in mediagoblin 20:00:21 or even adding media on different domains to collections, etc, other federation examples 20:00:41 if you click a thumbnail to a federated video, for instance 20:00:49 will that destroy navigation locally? 20:01:04 there are a lot of UI decisions we're going to have to make... at the moment, I've assumed those are outside of the WG 20:01:12 cwebber2 i think James will present embeded experiences during next session :) 20:01:18 but maybe if other people are thinking about these things 20:01:20 oh great! 20:01:27 stellar 20:01:55 http://jasnell.github.io/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/activitystreams2-actions.html#dfn-embeddedview 20:02:12 elf-pavlik: btw, you may be interested 20:02:13 oh yeah, embedded views are possible. but even in the low-tech minimal sense, a thumbnail that navigates is not that bad I don't think. 20:02:43 that Tsyesika is collecting her research as she goes at https://theperplexingpariah.co.uk/GMG/mediagoblin_research.html 20:02:45 from old draft: http://elf-pavlik.wwelves.org/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/activitystreams2-actions.html#embedActionHandler 20:03:10 cwebber2, thanks for link! 20:03:44 evanpro has joined #social 20:03:51 elf-pavlik: yup 20:04:41 maybe we should be getting more in the habit of Tsyesika and I discussing some of the federation implementation issues in here as we run into them 20:04:52 as well as on the list, obviously 20:05:05 :) 20:05:08 cwebber2, please do! 20:06:49 otherwise if you two plan to figure it all out on your own, please let us know so we stop wasting our time and find something else to do ;) 20:06:57 cwebber2: BTW, as somebody familiar with the Pump API, you might like my WIP soon-to-be submission: http://oshepherd.github.io/activitypump/ActivityPump.html . Comments very much invited :-) 20:07:09 elf-pavlik: haha :) 20:07:20 no, I think we'd prefer to work together :) 20:07:24 elf-pavlik: I'm not sure if you're aware but GMG is going to implement the Pump.io API at the present moment in time 20:07:29 cwebber2++ 20:07:31 cwebber2 has 2 karma 20:07:44 we're already in process of implementing it 20:07:50 or rather, Tsyesika is in process 20:08:05 but we intend to support the social wg specs, assuming all goes well :) 20:09:20 IMO implementing Pump.io API as its stands now can give very useful input to Social WG work! 20:09:42 enjoy your typing break ;) 20:10:20 oshepherd: I'm interested in your thoughts on https://www.w3.org/wiki/images/5/54/Social-api-layers.png 20:12:00 evanpro: My concern with all resource-based direct updates is when do these turn into activities, or, more importantly: do I do a thing and that generates an activity, or do I post an activity and that does a thing? 20:13:05 Yep 20:13:12 It's confusing! 20:13:25 I kind of feel that it should be "You do something, that generates an activity", because that makes all activities not special 20:13:33 At least with pump.io a POST to /user/evan/following will generate an activity 20:15:33 (hard to concentrate on things when new toy is screaming at you "play with me!" :p) 20:20:15 No way 20:20:17 Cool! 20:20:23 What do you do with it/ 20:20:24 ? 20:21:19 npdoty has joined #social 20:24:05 evanpro: Its' only just arrived, so mostly set it up so far :p 20:26:42 bblfish has joined #social 20:27:39 oshepherd: I find it really interesting but don't know what I'd do with it 20:28:14 Maybe if I ever find the free time (HAH!) I'll develop something for it... 20:28:44 In the meantime its' squarely in the "Play" category 20:31:14 I haven't done anything interesting with either of mine (DK1 and DK2), but here are my (ongoing) notes in case you're interested (although most of them are about the DK1): https://thoughtstreams.io/jtauber/oculus-rift/ 20:32:03 Oh FFS energy companies are useless "Heres your bill. You can pay it online" Great! Whats my account number? -_- 20:32:06 jasnell has joined #social 20:32:23 Like, seriously, why is my account number not on the bill?! 20:35:21 Hurrah! Of course its' hidden in the small print about paying by telephone 20:36:18 tantek has joined #social 20:41:20 AdamB has joined #social 20:41:41 clapierre has joined #Social 20:41:58 thanks for the great post, departed evanpro 20:45:01 dret has joined #social 20:45:14 shepazu has joined #social 20:46:35 tantek has joined #social 20:46:52 jtauber: I'm fortunate enough not to wear glasses 20:47:06 yeah, it's tough with them 20:47:22 One of the game demos I tried put a reflection of your face in the field of view. That was quite cool 20:47:34 (your avatar is wearing a helmet, so it makes physical sense) 20:51:39 jasnell has joined #social 20:54:56 evanpro has joined #social 20:57:07 shepazutu has joined #social 20:58:37 cmhobbs has joined #social 21:00:09 cmhobbs has joined #social 21:01:22 evanpro: thanks for the great diagram! really enjoyed seeing something 21:01:57 rektide: I hope it informs the discussion 21:04:00 Zakim has left #social 21:06:36 rektide: by "mentions" do you mean the type of thing where I say "@rektide good idea!" and it goes to a special stream that shows all posts that mention you? 21:06:59 that would get filtered through the general inbox for activities? 21:07:40 although you probably want a route to pull all mentions that have been filtered "/evan/mentions" 21:07:48 Right 21:07:52 seems like an optional thing for implementors 21:08:29 since it is more server->client than server->server syndication stuff 21:09:03 Arnaud has joined #social 21:09:33 So it's probably worth breaking this kind of thing up 21:10:52 npdoty has joined #social 21:11:45 I think filtering should be orthogonal to the general API 21:11:59 I agree 21:12:04 /evan/inbox?type=Mention&type=Like or whatever 21:12:33 That's an interesting idea 21:12:36 it's possible that "mentions" is a completely separate feed, and thus a whole other object and thus a unique resource 21:12:36 You should be able to request filtering from any API endpoin (and the server should also be free to ignore you) 21:12:43 I don't know where to capture this stuff 21:13:00 but filtering of any particular feed, yeah, would be good 21:13:26 OK I started here https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/API/Layers 21:13:27 it's the kind of thing that you'd want to subscribe to... "/evan/activities" where activities are posted articles 21:13:41 so in that case, it is server->server facing hm 21:13:46 dwhly has joined #social 21:14:17 evanpro: yeah, external resources with inbound linkage 21:15:09 wilkie: i think /evan/mentions might be a candidate collector for mention resources, but otoh i'm not sure why individual resources wouldn't expose their own mentions collector 21:15:49 if you want to filter a feed, you'd do it as a query like oshepherd suggested 21:16:09 Mentions really breaks down to two different important actions 21:16:22 TBH I think that "mentioning" somebody is really just cc:ing them 21:16:33 One is sending someone a note or image or whatever "@oshepherd check this out!" 21:16:46 pfefferle has joined #social 21:16:52 And the second is search and monitoring, "Who is talking about me?" 21:17:25 i don't feel like /evan/inbox is a good permenant resource for the mention... where does it really get filed? 21:17:38 rektide: In your inbox. Everything gets filed in your inbox 21:17:43 Not all social software conflates the two 21:18:10 oshepherd: ahh ok. sorry, not quite up to speed /w ya'll across the board. 21:18:30 evanpro: agreed with your breakdown 21:19:13 KevinMarks has joined #social 21:19:16 bblfish_ has joined #social 21:19:21 rektide: Just think of your "inbox" as your feed (what you see on the homepage of facebook or twitter or whatever) 21:19:38 a "timeline" 21:19:50 or whatever 21:20:44 Right 21:21:04 "Stuff by people I follow, or in groups I'm a member of, or sent directly to me, or by me" 21:21:16 Roughly 21:35:06 AdamB has left #social 21:35:13 AdamB has joined #social 21:35:27 evanpro_ has joined #social 21:37:54 evanp has joined #social 21:39:12 evanp has left #social 21:48:21 jasnell has joined #social 21:51:01 clapierre has left #social 21:52:46 jasnell_ has joined #social 21:53:44 evanpro_ has joined #social 21:58:50 npdoty has joined #social 22:09:19 next session in 20min ? 22:17:55 I don't know if anyone else saw this great infographic on Web Annotations 22:17:56 http://www.w3.org/annotation/diagrams/annotation-architecture.svg 22:18:00 But I really like it 22:19:54 that's great! 22:22:10 bblfish has joined #social 22:22:21 evanpro, when do we start? 22:22:38 elf-pavlik: I think 3:30PM PDT 22:22:44 Roughly 22:23:27 in ~10 min 22:24:01 tantek has joined #social 22:27:56 jasnell has joined #social 22:30:01 now 22:31:06 should we be joining talky.io? 22:31:07 evanpro has joined #social 22:31:11 I see a potted plant, at present. 22:31:30 EdK has joined #social 22:31:32 we're in the other room - the #annotation one 22:31:33 So we just moved into #annotation 22:31:35 cwebber2, yes i wait for someone to start it in the room 22:31:45 People who are participating remotely may want to join that 22:31:49 Since someone is scribing there 22:31:53 great 22:32:02 bigbluehat has joined #social 22:32:07 hi new friends! 22:32:13 ujvari has joined #social 22:32:14 azaroth has joined #social 22:32:15 nickstenn has joined #social 22:32:16 tilgovi has joined #social 22:32:21 JakeHart has joined #social 22:32:33 can you scribe in 2 rooms at once? 22:32:36 AdamB has joined #social 22:32:38 tantek has joined #social 22:32:38 hi #annotation :) hey tilgovi! 22:32:41 I could noterlive... 22:33:12 fjh has joined #social 22:33:12 We're not scribing here 22:33:13 slides for #annotation http://www.w3.org/2014/annotation/diagrams/annotation-architecture.svg 22:33:16 could someone start https://talky.io/socialwg ? 22:33:17 So please come to #annotation 22:33:41 we're asking to scribe in here 22:33:41 we are scribing here 22:33:43 who will annotate the annotators? 22:33:45 ScribeNick: nickstenn 22:33:50 bjdmeest has joined #social 22:33:51 !!!! 22:33:54 because #social folks are split across rooms 22:33:58 physical rooms 22:34:05 raphael has joined #social 22:34:06 shepazu: we have a charter that contains a number of things 22:34:07 tzviya_ has joined #social 22:34:18 ... some deliverables we hope we don't have to make and #social will make instead 22:34:33 ... want to explain what we're trying to accomplish overall for annotations 22:34:46 ... [presents diagram of "Web Annotation Architecture"] 22:34:50 aron_ has joined #social 22:35:03 ... this is an attempt of a description of what we hope to see as the overall architecture 22:35:25 ... everything starts with someone creating some content 22:35:31 http://www.w3.org/2014/annotation/diagrams/annotation-architecture.svg is diagram if you just joined 22:35:41 ... content creator sends content to a publisher (maybe the same person) who publishes it 22:35:44 csillag has joined #social 22:35:55 ... footnotes and comments may be added to the document 22:35:56 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/28-social-minutes.html raphael 22:36:22 ... comments aren't in separate documents 22:36:39 ... another role -- a reader -- who can annotate documents 22:36:44 ... can annotate footnotes or comments 22:37:03 ... they target a discrete selection within the document 22:37:06 ... support for overlapping annotations 22:37:16 ... annotations aren't supposed to live on the same document 22:37:41 ... when I submit a comment to someone's blog, I'm implicitly entering into a creator-publisher relationship with the blog owner 22:37:56 aron_ has joined #social 22:38:14 ... we think it would be more interesting if an annotator can publish their own annotations without the say-so or involvement of the publisher/creator of the document 22:38:37 ... we also want the ability to notify a publisher of annotations made on their documents 22:38:59 s/!!!!/Topic: Joint meeting Social/Annotation WG 22:39:00 raphael meant to say: RRSAgent, draft minutes 22:39:01 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/28-social-minutes.html raphael 22:39:18 ... annotation services provide a way for readers to discover and subscribe to annotation content on the web 22:39:50 ... the aim is a distributed mechanism for creating, storing, and discovering annotations 22:40:08 ... we introduce another character, the "sharer" 22:40:19 ... people can share the annotations [as first-class entities] 22:40:33 ... and there's a chain of attribution 22:40:39 s/!!!!/Topic: Joint meeting Social-Annotation WG/ 22:40:41 nickstenn meant to say: ... and there's a chain of attribution 22:40:56 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/28-social-minutes.html raphael 22:41:06 ???: this is a perfect use case for the stuff we're looking at 22:41:19 s/???/James Snell/ 22:41:25 ... this flow here fits in perfectly with what we've been talking about 22:41:44 harry has joined #social 22:41:54 ??2: i'll run through a status update on what [social] have been working on 22:42:11 s/??e/Evanpro 22:42:14 ironically can't annotate that presentation with fragmentions as it's in SVG 22:42:22 http://evan.prodromou.name/files/TPAC/ 22:42:39 harry: mark crawford is chair of interest group 22:43:03 mark crawford: we have a template for use cases 22:43:03 ... on the wiki 22:43:15 ... you can fill that out, add any figures you want 22:43:33 evanpro: social ig/wg chartered in julyt 22:43:44 s/julyt/july/ 22:43:45 tilgovi meant to say: I don't have to escape those ?s do I? This isn't regex? 22:44:03 ... social ig is working on use cases and issues around social and identifying ways the w3c can be helpful in this space 22:44:10 ... three main deliverables 22:44:12 Loqi is logging 22:44:13 Social data syntax 22:44:13 ... 1) social data syntax 22:44:14 Social API 22:44:14 Federation protocol 22:44:19 ... 2) social api 22:44:25 ... 3) and a federation protocol 22:44:38 fabien-gandon has joined #social 22:44:55 ... 1) is a repr of activities (status updates, etc.) that happen in a social context -- changes to the social graph, content creation, content replies, etc. 22:45:01 This link (appears first above) is to slides being summarised right now: http://evan.prodromou.name/files/TPAC/ 22:45:16 ... it's a syntax that's JSON(-LD) 22:45:33 ... just went to FPWD with activity streams 2.0 22:46:03 ... activity streams is a subject-verb-object structure "Evan - posted - this image" 22:46:05 Loqi is the social logging bot for indieweb et al - generates nice HTML logs http://socialwg.indiewebcamp.com/irc/social/2014-10-28#bottom 22:46:06 AnnBassetti has joined #social 22:46:19 Activity streams 2.0 FPWD at http://www.w3.org/TR/activitystreams-core/ 22:46:23 ... 2) social API -- a client/server HTTP based API that will use the social data syntax 22:46:26 elf, setting up talky right now 22:46:35 ... there's a client embedding API 22:46:37 Loqi has 314 karma 22:46:46 ... we are currently in the process of developing this social API 22:47:03 ... working off existing work that came out of open social, and a number of other social APIs 22:47:08 ... goal is to get social API to a WD this quarter 22:47:34 ... 3) federation protocol -- a syndication of activities across different security domains 22:47:44 ... if I generate a number of activities that I'm storing in a social store 22:48:03 ... people will be able to follow me remotely and receive updates on those activities -- under my control 22:48:25 ... aim is to have a well-documented mechanism to transfer social data between different locations 22:48:56 ... we could walk through the Web Annotation Architecture, but a lot of people in the room can probably see where they fit pretty quickly 22:49:10 shepazu: everything that's not at the document level is a pretty obvious fit 22:49:18 ... i want to call out the work we're doing that you're not 22:49:35 ... we're defining a data model that says what an annotation is 22:49:43 ... also working on serializations 22:49:48 people like JSON-LD? 22:50:33 ... working on the piece that links to a specific part of a document -- what we're calling robust anchoring 22:50:36 yes, I like JSON-LD 22:50:46 tantek: some of the work on webmention may have overlap on that as well 22:50:47 it solves a major problem for us 22:51:07 james snell: we're not modelling the specific content types so this fits very well for us 22:51:13 thank you AnnBassetti :) 22:51:20 AnnBassetti has 1 karma 22:51:35 AnnBassetti: [introduces people from Europe on a webrtc link] 22:52:03 fjh: I want to know what the actions are when we're done discussing 22:52:13 Lloyd_Fassett has joined #social 22:52:13 shepazu: at the very least we should be giving [social] some use cases 22:52:33 james snell: we're looking for feedback on our FPWD 22:52:33 elf-pavlik et al, video laptop just lost power, coming back momentarily 22:52:41 tantek: hi, I'm the co-chair of the social WG 22:52:49 ... one of the inputs to the federation protocol is webmention 22:53:33 ... [demos a note, with a bunch of comments that have come into the site via the webmention protocol] 22:53:53 fjh: is this an open-source implementation? 22:54:38 tantek: [demos an example of a reply made using an open-source implementation hosted on someone's own site] 22:54:51 ... the other example you're probably more interested in is marginalia 22:54:51 sorry guys, lost power on the webcam 22:55:16 ... ??? combined webmentions with fragment identifiers to create "fragmentions" 22:55:48 Second demo link is https://kartikprabhu.com/article/marginalia 22:55:49 Aaron Parecki 22:55:51 ... [shows example of inline margin comment, published again on someone's own site, but which makes reference to a specific location in a published document] 22:56:04 s/???/Aaron Parecki/ 22:56:41 harry has joined #social 22:57:17 shepazu: I'd like to see what the next steps look like 22:57:20 elf-pavlik: so far no JSON-LD needed for webmention comments, or marginalia, or fragmentions 22:57:40 may very well be needed for adding new media types in mediagoblin, etc 22:58:02 or, at least, keep various identifiers in the json from being lonnnnng 22:58:12 fjh: why do you folks need use cases from us? 22:58:37 James Snell: we can look at it and see if our stuff [Activity Streams] fits what you're doing 22:58:45 In summary - I showed this post with favorites and reposts and comments federated via webmentions: http://aaronparecki.com/notes/2014/10/15/3/border-none 22:59:33 harry: we can formalise the relationship between the WGs if there are clear dependencies 22:59:56 fjh: there may be some of our standards effort that overlaps with social APIs, and some that doesn't 23:00:00 and then I showed Marginalia: https://kartikprabhu.com/article/marginalia and the annotation on this fragmention: https://kartikprabhu.com/article/marginalia##So+if+you+sent+a+webmention posted on another site here: https://kylewm.com/2014/06/this-is-super-exciting-great-work-building-it-and-a-real-testament 23:00:17 Social IG for use-case discussion is Wednedays at 10:00 AM 23:00:26 Eastern (biweekly) 23:00:53 fjh: is fragmentions something you're looking to standardise? 23:00:55 Social WG (focussed on ActivityStreams and specs) is Tuesdays Noon Eastern 23:00:55 See web-pages 23:00:56 www.w3.org/Social/WG 23:01:00 www.w3.org/Social/IG 23:01:01 KevinMarks - came up with fragmentions after attending the Annotations Workshop in April 23:01:12 see http://indiewebcamp.com/fragmentions for the spec 23:01:24 KevinMarks: came up with it after I Annotate 2014. it was the simplest thing I could think of which addressed the problem of identifying a part of a document. 23:01:47 ... so far it's just on the IndieWebCamp wiki 23:01:57 it was the annotations meeting in April that inspired fragmentions: http://www.kevinmarks.com/w3cannotation.html#quotation+from+the+work http://www.kevinmarks.com/fragmentions.html 23:02:52 TimCole: there are potentially issues with fragmentions (IP, overloading the meaning of fragment identifiers, etc.) 23:03:33 shepazu: the way fragmentions and what we're looking to do dovetails is as follows 23:03:43 ... you currently need a javascript library to make that work 23:03:58 q+ 23:04:01 q? 23:04:03 ... one possibility is that we standardise a "find text" in page API 23:04:30 Zakim has joined #social 23:04:33 q? 23:04:38 q+ fjh 23:04:45 tantek: hasn't been proposed for standardisation, but it is CC0, on the web 23:04:58 and interoperably implemented 23:05:10 see http://indiewebcamp.com/fragmentions#Open_Source for implementations 23:05:16 q? 23:05:20 there is a prior art discussion at http://indiewebcamp.com/fragmention#Related+work 23:05:38 Lloyd Fassett 23:06:02 q? 23:06:03 Lloyd_Fassett: there was a mention of if someone liked "Ice Cream" they could follow "Ice Cream" ... what are the proposals for that? 23:06:18 fjh: probably a throwaway comment we can ignore 23:06:25 elf , did you want to be on queue? 23:06:39 s/fjh/someone/ 23:06:40 nickstenn meant to say: someone: probably a throwaway comment we can ignore 23:06:50 AnnBassetti, just Zakim not present when fjh tried get on queue... 23:06:58 s/probably a throwaway comment we can ignore/not sure that we have an answer for this/ 23:06:59 fjh meant to say: q? 23:07:04 aha 23:07:24 sandro: is there a nominated liaison between the two groups? 23:07:37 +1 liaison 23:08:03 azaroth: we have no invited experts at the moment, but this may be an opportunity to add one 23:08:17 ACTION: identify a liaison between the two WGs 23:08:17 Error finding 'identify'. You can review and register nicknames at . 23:08:42 I believe we just nominated Kevin Marks 23:08:51 or as he prefers to be called in IRC, KevinMarks 23:09:03 ACTION: KevinMarks to act as liaison between the two WGs 23:09:03 Error finding 'KevinMarks'. You can review and register nicknames at . 23:09:16 KevinMarks, your w3 nick? 23:09:22 kmarks2 23:09:38 Arnaud: there's a pretty big overlap in general, not restricted to robust anchoring 23:09:52 ACTION: kmarks2 to act as liaison between the two WGs 23:09:52 Error finding 'kmarks2'. You can review and register nicknames at . 23:10:01 q? 23:10:07 ack fjh 23:10:15 fjh: maybe just Evanpro and I should just talk and arrange the liaison we deem appropriate 23:10:21 Sorry, raphael, I don't understand 'trackbot hates nickstenn :-)'. Please refer to for help. 23:10:33 Arnaud: it's good we've identified the overlap early on 23:11:35 Sorry, elf-pavlik, I don't understand 'trackbot says Loqi s/LOL/:D/ ??'. Please refer to for help. 23:11:55 tantek: it'll be interesting to see how the overlap pans out, as the social WG is focused heavily on use cases, user scenarios, whereas you are starting from an abstract model 23:12:17 azaroth: we have discussed use cases at length in the CG, it's simply that we're not going to be rediscussing those in the WG 23:12:32 http://www.w3.org/community/openannotation/ 23:12:47 James Snell: I can take an action look at the existing data model and see how it fits 23:12:52 this wiki looks a bit blank: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Web_Annotations 23:13:11 fjh: we'll get back in touch before our next call 23:13:36 ACTION: James Snell will look at web annotation model and figure out how it maps into social work 23:13:36 'James' is an ambiguous username. Please try a different identifier, such as family name or username (e.g., jsnell, jktauber). 23:13:42 https://www.w3.org/annotation/wiki/Main_Page 23:13:50 azaroth: I'll take the corresponding reverse action to look at Activity Streams 2.0 23:14:03 ACTION: azaroth to look at the Social WG FPWD 23:14:03 Error finding 'azaroth'. You can review and register nicknames at . 23:14:08 hhalpin has joined #social 23:14:09 Arnaud: where are you in terms of legacy, backwards compatibility problems? 23:14:25 ... in social WG we have some issues around this -- that's why it's Activity Streams 2.0 23:14:41 FYI: here is a permalink to the start of our joint meeting and minuting between #social and #annotation: http://socialwg.indiewebcamp.com/irc/social/2014-10-28#t1414535621356 23:15:00 s/social work/social work and Activity Streams / 23:15:01 ACTION: jasnell to look at web annotation model and figure out how it maps into social work 23:15:01 Error finding 'jasnell'. You can review and register nicknames at . 23:15:01 AnnBassetti meant to say: ACTION: James Snell will look at web annotation model and figure out how it maps into social work and Activity Streams  23:15:05 q+ to ask about existing deployed protocols 23:15:17 ACTION: jsnell to look at web annotation model and figure out how it maps into social work 23:15:17 Created ACTION-8 - Look at web annotation model and figure out how it maps into social work [on James Snell - due 2014-11-04]. 23:15:19 azaroth: we're in pretty much the same situation -- two groups originally that joined forces in 20xx and published a joint spec for data model and serialization (no APIs) 23:15:41 ... we have free rein for the HTTP API and client-side/server interactions 23:16:26 q? 23:16:50 ... looked at several platforms, including Annotea, which we eventually abandoned 23:16:56 http://www.w3.org/2001/Annotea/ 23:17:07 ack sandro 23:17:07 sandro, you wanted to ask about existing deployed protocols 23:17:25 sandro: are there protocols that are currently being used being by products in this space? 23:17:41 azaroth: nothing beyond basic REST APIs afaik 23:18:05 ... multiple ways of doing search 23:18:15 in the social realm, we have interop across many implementations with Webmention http://indiewebcamp.com/webmention 23:18:20 in terms of a protocol 23:18:25 sandro: we'd like to know what you need from the protocol in this context? 23:18:34 Evanpro: we need to wrap 23:18:38 *: thanks all round 23:18:53 talky guys ... I'll reconnect in other room 23:20:32 jasnell has joined #social 23:20:57 jtauber has joined #social 23:21:03 #social as:<3 #annotation ;) 23:21:37 evanpro has joined #social 23:22:17 bjdmeest has left #social 23:24:08 lehawes has joined #social 23:24:27 scribenick EdK 23:24:29 claudio has joined #social 23:24:37 https://www.w3.org/wiki/TPAC2014#Session_Grid 23:24:44 Wed morning 9:15 am unmeeting with schema.org 23:25:10 jasnell: opensocial embedded experience was an input 23:25:17 primarily built around a gadget model 23:25:49 jasnell: not sure anyone is interested in continuing to use the gadget model 23:26:07 potential actions like a share is something could to with content 23:26:17 then a set of actions of what should happen 23:26:33 for example call out a deep link in a mobile app 23:27:08 a simple action like Share could be done with simple declarative syntax 23:27:20 the user experience would be a buoon - a share or like button 23:27:33 then it could open a view, like a browser view 23:27:51 raphael has left #social 23:28:01 the media type will define what is embedded, like a video 23:28:16 embedding a script tag is far more common 23:28:59 jasnell: where different actions might be done, open a browser view, a native mobile action, 23:29:21 want to embed with the content so the . can choose which to use 23:29:52 it would be that the implemetner could leverage the options, or could ignore them and do their own thing 23:30:16 these are the publisher's options, the things teh publisher says you could do with it 23:30:49 decoupled this, comapred to Embedded Experience in OpenSocial which was tightly tied 23:31:00 the details about whatr you are embedding isn't part of this 23:31:12 could be web component, iFrame, scripts, a number of different ways 23:31:57 in current editors draft is an "expects" property, which is a variety of additional metadata 23:32:07 but this overlapw with other work like hydra 23:32:17 dow we want to define or leverage other prior work 23:32:46 tantek has joined #social 23:32:49 can designate the sandbox policy 23:33:25 the activity vocabulry defines the model for this embedded view, it does not define the share action 23:33:43 reference yesterday can verbs be just nouns, would make this quite a bit easier 23:33:51 linke to presentation? 23:34:28 can have an activity statement like a share, currently activity being modeled different than a potential action 23:34:48 http://tpac.mybluemix.net/as2.html#19 ? 23:34:52 http://tpac.mybluemix.net 23:35:01 jasnell, cool! thx 23:35:03 q+ 23:35:12 Sandro: difference wouldn't be noticed by user 23:35:30 jasnell: right, the implementor determines 23:35:53 Lloyd_Fassett has joined #social 23:36:02 this is something that needs to be worked out, should there be a ui ... 23:36:02 q+ 23:36:06 dret has joined #social 23:36:10 ack claudio 23:36:56 dromasca has joined #social 23:37:12 jasnell - basically what potential actions can be done aganst a containing object, it doesn't matter what the object is (images or whatever) 23:38:18 query the data store gets the actions along with it. the action data travels along with it. 23:38:36 Sandro: how close to running code? 23:38:45 q? 23:38:47 ack evanpro 23:38:51 jasnell: some is running now 23:39:05 tantek_ has joined #social 23:40:02 evanpro: support 3 basic actions share like and comment, this could be a big payload to pass along, perhaps not attach to each and every payload 23:40:15 q+ 23:40:18 q+ to point out indiewebcamp.com/webactions and what's been deployed 23:40:23 an event with rsvp options, a poll that could be replied to, games, whater 23:40:32 s/whater/whatever/s 23:40:34 EdK meant to say: an event with rsvp options, a poll that could be replied to, games, whatever 23:41:10 some security issues with accepting a url from someone else, action syas use this to open something else, etc. 23:41:38 q? 23:41:42 cwebber2 do you get audio/video? 23:41:50 I'm getting audio, no video 23:41:52 on the room 23:41:53 I see you 23:41:53 I had to reconnect .. lost you 23:41:58 jasnessl: no standard way to do a Like, if we had a standard, thenw e could pass it without the identifiers. but there are too many to accomplish, so could do the basics and then detail teh others 23:42:02 q? 23:42:04 oh yeah? I don't see you 23:42:14 more important you see the room 23:42:22 I don't see the room but I see elf-pavlik 23:42:30 rats 23:42:35 AnnBassetti: thanks for handling the recording btw, greatly appreciated 23:42:42 I'll reconnect 23:42:48 my pleasure; it's a drag to be remote 23:42:50 another alternative is to have a thing we can do like, share, comment. a get would say what these actions are 23:43:05 q+ to note existing implementations 23:43:07 could use whitelisting, haven't found a better solution yet 23:43:09 ack dret 23:43:21 there we go, looks fine now 23:43:27 roger dodger 23:43:42 except I don't understand why I have split screen 23:43:45 oh well 23:43:53 dret: I see repeating these actions over and over could be noisy, but if push to type, then can teh client infer that. if not, then they can't tell waht action to do for an activity. 23:44:45 ack tantek 23:44:45 tantek, you wanted to note existing implementations 23:45:00 or Adam pushes something into the feed, discussed that its been done in several ways, need to solve so we don't attach 20 actions and send around 23:45:14 dret, have you looked at http://www.hydra-cg.com/spec/latest/core/ ? 23:45:20 indiewebcamp.com/webactions 23:45:24 tantek: in webcamp have a lot of experience, not theoretical, done over more than a year 23:45:34 displaying page noted in irc 23:45:47 s/Adam pushes/ATOM pushes/ 23:45:49 AnnBassetti meant to say: oh well 23:45:50 it'll be ok 23:45:58 q+ 23:46:02 hmm ... now why? 23:46:11 tantek: webintents had issues that translated into UI nightmare 23:46:39 came up with a set of common actions, this is what people are deploying today. 23:47:06 only 2 attributes "do", "with" 23:47:10 webrtc seems to work well as long as you're willing to reconnect ;) 23:47:24 even if you have no support for webactions, the page will still work 23:47:31 link for Tantek's discussion http://indiewebcamp.com/webactions 23:48:13 if you are handling an indie action, user has specified what to do with the action 23:48:50 demonstrated a few approaches linked from the above noted page 23:49:38 berry frost used text and graphic/icon as a good use case example 23:49:56 took some webcomponent magic, he used CSS 23:50:35 demonstrated fallback action to twitter when not defined 23:50:45 pfefferle has joined #social 23:50:54 evanpro: when using feedreader approach, can you operate on teh actions? 23:51:50 tantek: is inside the hentry, currently wouldn't do something. certainly doable erhaps as simple as one class name 23:51:57 you mean e-action tantek? 23:52:49 q? 23:53:18 Sandro: what about if you dont' do what evan just asked: 23:54:22 tantek: using register protocol handler. can register on your site. the site you are browsing doesn't know that. asks if you have a handler, if not it will fall back 23:56:06 discussed "register the web action protocol" as teh method 23:56:41 q+ 23:57:16 ack tantek_ 23:57:16 tantek_, you wanted to point out indiewebcamp.com/webactions and what's been deployed 23:57:21 ack jasnell 23:57:48 jasnell: the action handler work, jasmes sees lots of overlap. the action handler type prevents more options, but is much simpler. roughly equivalent approaches, support of multiple fallback options, dealing with verbs, don't see thse as too far off 23:58:18 tantek: doesn't say how to handle the verb. you can have an indei-action tag without a fallback 23:58:21 q? 23:58:41 s/indei/indie/s 23:58:42 EdK meant to say: tantek: doesn't say how to handle the verb. you can have an indie-action tag without a fallback 23:59:14 ack evanpro 00:00:16 evanpro: issue he'd liek to address, where will we handle in our schedule and process. ack that James is already working on. is a llot for the working group to address. getting the social api and teh federation protocol may want to happen earlier than in-browser experiecne 00:00:30 q+ 00:00:54 +1 to federation / social stuff coming first... I do think actions stuff is something that will be critical to a lot of people, but federation stuff is more critical I feel 00:01:10 http://indiewebcamp.com/webmention 00:01:11 would like to talk about whether to include these actions. preference is to push off until after federation protocol, then can discuss using these actions in a federated environment. 00:01:21 I meant to say: 00:01:22 q+ to suggest federation protocol before social API 00:02:01 timing discussed, feeling is that should be toward end of process 00:02:25 tilgovi has joined #social 00:03:04 q+ 00:03:05 Arnaud: asked if these use cases mean we do have use cases. 00:03:07 q+ 00:03:13 ack jasnell 00:04:36 jasnell: has an editor's draft, will continue to work on it. on road to FWD doesn't mean have to talk a lot about it. suggests Tantek and James discuss. would like to at least look at in draft, even if it isn't going to end up being prioritized. see actions as an entrypoint into the API discussions 00:04:52 provides use case insight 00:05:29 ARnud: is concern about resources and would be delaying things, or is this about dependancies 00:06:36 evanpro: both. limited bandwidth to apply to issues, schedule of others on teh roadmap will define dependencies. roadmap is on page, but not ordered in teh charter. 00:06:40 dret has joined #social 00:07:23 ack tantek 00:07:23 tantek, you wanted to suggest federation protocol before social API 00:07:33 jasnell: not in a rush to be finished for this work, is a priority in own company. won't let it derail WG efforts, if it has to wait it will. want to start it going. 00:07:53 tantek: would put federation protocol before api based on experience in his work. 00:08:17 +1 on webmention maturity 00:08:50 maybe tehre are different scopes in mind for federation, but wrt webmention, seems mature enough to go somewhere. freinding, following, pushing out live updates is an area that needs a lot more work though. 00:08:53 q+ to ask if "action" suffices for our embedded experience API 00:09:11 would like to see tha actions draft contain the superset, then can point to what is being deployed on the web today 00:09:19 I think that part of federation stuff is foundational enough that I don't think federation can be considered partially done 00:09:50 ack evanpro 00:09:50 evanpro, you wanted to ask if "action" suffices for our embedded experience API 00:09:52 jasnell: propose to put heads together on these approaches, come up with one that will work. 00:10:28 cwebber2: you mean federation is unitary? Can't be incrementally implemented? 00:10:29 tilgovi_ has joined #social 00:10:37 evanpro: from charter point of view, if action indicators are in social data syntax, would that suffice for embedded experiecne api or would there be more work to do there. 00:11:01 ack hhalpin 00:12:00 harry: problem is too many working drafts will mean can't finish. have to fit together. darwinian process... supports the general activity streams, api, federation, happy with embedded experience work toward the end 00:12:18 KevinMarks: I'm having a hard time understanding how federation where subscribing/pushing updates/commenting/liking are not all clearly enough implemented where there is a solid enough of a foundation to do much else 00:12:24 maybe I'm wrong, but 00:12:53 jasnell: doesn't want to confuse Open Social Big E embedded experience with the work James is doing about little e experiences. 00:13:26 sugarCRM doesn't want to do open social gadgets work anymore either, 00:13:56 q? 00:14:00 q+ 00:14:07 the micropub/webmention split seems quite good in practice for update/notify 00:14:28 harry: need http api out soon, federation. need to get webmention as working draft, no problem also working on embedded draft too. 00:14:53 subscription and updates is tricker though PubSubHubbub is a marker there as discussed yesterday 00:15:05 main holdup will not be lack of good concepts, will be lack of editor's time in drafts. would focus on http api first. 00:15:21 q+ 00:15:40 q- 00:15:49 q+ 00:16:38 I disabled my video for a sec :) 00:16:50 clarification there is no order in the charter, but there is a schedule. but it isn't a big deal to change that and inform people of there is a better order. 00:16:54 sorry for the confusion 00:17:01 thx for staying on top of it, AnnBassetti 00:17:11 evanpro: feels federation is harder, 00:17:17 the indie-action technique could be a gadget replacement, but with user-chosen gadget binding 00:17:32 q? 00:17:38 ack jasnell 00:18:02 jasnell: there is no proposal for the api draft yet, what is the plan to get on teh table for discussion. 00:18:17 harry: need to get all tof them on teh table as soon as possible 00:19:07 suggests everyone put out editr's draft as soon as possible as teh mechanism to drive timing and forward progress 00:20:24 Arnaud: recapped the rather lengthy process to get through all the drafting and review processes, test suites, implementations and reportback of results. putting drafts is lower hanging fruit but the working group has a lot of things to do and can't push a lot of parallel thigns through 00:20:55 bblfish has joined #social 00:20:58 harry: not concerned about meeting chrter, more worried on time 00:21:20 tantek: ok with seeing multiple drafts to get many more eyes on it, even if it is multiple approaches. 00:21:31 +1 staying open to multiple drafts 00:21:51 evanpro: could we do with proposals to drafts, winnow down to effort 00:22:16 tantek: can see multiple drafts expanding collaboration regarind potentially independent use cases. 00:22:37 ack evanpro 00:22:49 http://indiewebcamp.com/SWAT0 00:22:53 q+ 00:23:26 sandro: re SWAT0, asked the other day about whether it was implemented in indeweb 00:23:37 ProjectDanube? 00:23:47 evanpro: did in 3 implementatiosn, statusnet, rstatus, another I missed :-) 00:23:59 buddycloud 00:24:09 I say it is implemented; Tantek is quibbling about what "tagging somone in a photo" means 00:24:45 http://buddycloud.com/ (XMPP based) 00:24:59 AnnB: so you think it is achievable? 00:25:04 tantek: yes. 00:25:09 ack hhalpin 00:25:30 harry: coming to the end of the day. want to finalize with clear editors. 00:26:00 q+ indieweb arguably has SWAT0 implemented, depending on what "tagging" means 00:26:49 http://indiewebcamp.com/micropub as well for a social API 00:26:57 possibly Hydra and Linked Data Fragments ! 00:27:00 evanpro: seems like there are 3 pump.io, micropub, ....? 00:27:02 see and add to https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Social_API_candidates 00:27:12 thanks tantek 00:27:56 q? 00:28:08 Arnaud: want to use last 1/2 hour to wrap up. are we done with actions discussion at the moment? 00:28:13 q? 00:29:14 KevinMarks suggests indieweb did (mostly) meet SWAT0 00:29:23 Arnaud: great meeting over last 2 days 00:29:36 what is important is have clear idea who needs to do what 00:29:45 some actions notes, some issues not noted formally 00:30:11 anything not related to a specific draft, broader should be recorded in tracker. 00:30:29 jasnell: indiewebcamp.com/webactions and indiewebcamp.com/indie-config 00:30:29 review different topics agree what to do next 00:30:44 activity stream specs - are we clear? 00:31:01 jasnell: next step is to get feedback. 00:31:29 Arnaud: need 2 people to commit to reading and commenting on specs. 00:32:01 Arnaud: are we near last call yet? 00:32:05 jasnell: no 00:32:20 shepazu has joined #social 00:32:37 fjh has joined #social 00:33:14 rrsagent, generate minutes 00:33:14 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/28-social-minutes.html fjh 00:33:20 jasnell: need one more working draft to add namespace, resolve questions like verbs as nouns, may need one more working draft early december to wrok out that. then can work on starting to do some tests and test suite 00:33:32 evanpro: what would a test suite be evaluateing: 00:33:47 jasnell: make sure parsing is handled the same way? 00:33:48 o/ 00:34:04 q+ 00:34:09 Arnoaud: who is planning implementing - given all the other work. 00:34:29 is http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-snell-link-method-10 meant to be a webmention equivalent, jasnell ? 00:34:35 Sandro: what is implementation ... 00:34:49 q? 00:34:51 evanpro: would do parser for consuemr, but what else? 00:35:30 jasnell: has some opensource, library not an application. java and javascript parsing and consuming 00:36:07 jasnell: where is the opensource library at today? 00:36:56 need to have a JSON-LD to fully handle. All valid AS1.0 must be consumed. 00:37:14 thx AnnBassetti 00:37:22 ack cwebber2 00:37:35 tantek: use cases should drive tests 00:37:41 for an implementation 00:37:44 ISSUE: Are AS consumers REQUIRED to understand the pre-JSON-LD syntax? 00:37:44 Created ISSUE-7 - Are as consumers required to understand the pre-json-ld syntax?. Please complete additional details at . 00:38:16 cwebber2: right now implementing at mediagoblin, suggests will have more than 1 implementation likely. 00:38:43 Arnaud: may be boring but figuring out what spec is first, helps people know what to implement. 00:39:20 thx for handling that AnnBassetti 00:39:25 tantek: finding existing implementations can make sure the call goes out to find out who will then implement the spec 00:39:47 we should invite Echo and Gnip to comment as they have existing AS implementations 00:39:59 KevinMarks: +1 00:40:08 q+ 00:40:17 oh I should be off the queue 00:40:22 q- 00:40:33 harry: need to recognized that some implementers tend to wait. 00:40:35 logical guess of queue management command worked ;) 00:40:46 this is what I'm talking about: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Activity_Streams#Implementations 00:42:46 Arnaud: one thing practically that can be done, sooner we have test suite sframework set up, tell people what a test looks like, then people can submit tests and therefore implement a test suite 00:42:49 shepazutu has joined #social 00:42:58 q? 00:43:06 q+ 00:43:38 ACTION: test suite for Activity Streams 2.0 00:43:38 Error finding 'test'. You can review and register nicknames at . 00:43:41 ack evanpro 00:44:09 I started already with testing RDF from examples in the spec draft, if that counts as useful test... 00:44:16 ISSUE: test suite for Activity Streams 2.0 00:44:16 Created ISSUE-8 - Test suite for activity streams 2.0. Please complete additional details at . 00:44:17 evanpro: what is action - to create test suite for AS2.0? who gets teh action? better create an issue 00:44:40 oh yay. good. 00:44:45 :) 00:45:19 evanpro: since don't have a vocabulary, haven't adopted AS1.0, need an action. 00:45:31 ack evanpro 00:45:31 ACTION: jasnell adapt Basic Schema from Activity Streams 1.0 to 2.0 00:45:31 Error finding 'jasnell'. You can review and register nicknames at . 00:45:41 https://github.com/jasnell/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/pull/32 first version of tests for expected RDF 00:45:58 tantek: that implementation list doesn't even have statusnet or rstatus on it heh 00:46:03 ACTION: evanpro share verbs and object types from pump.io with jsnell before adapting basic schema 00:46:03 Error finding 'evanpro'. You can review and register nicknames at . 00:46:12 wilkie heh - please edit it! :) 00:46:22 evanpro: try jsnell 00:46:29 ACTION: jsnell adapt Basic Schema from Activity Streams 1.0 to 2.0 00:46:29 Created ACTION-9 - Adapt basic schema from activity streams 1.0 to 2.0 [on James Snell - due 2014-11-05]. 00:46:33 tantek: will do *salutes* :) 00:46:36 q? 00:46:43 wilkie++ thank you! 00:46:45 wilkie has 3 karma 00:46:45 s/identity/profiles/ ;) 00:46:45 ack hadleybeeman 00:46:45 ACTION: eprodrom share verbs and object types from pump.io with jsnell before adapting basic schema 00:46:45 Created ACTION-10 - Share verbs and object types from pump.io with jsnell before adapting basic schema [on Evan Prodromou - due 2014-11-05]. 00:46:47 elf-pavlik meant to say: https://github.com/jasnell/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/pull/32 first version of tests for expected RDF 00:47:15 who speaks? 00:47:26 hadleybeeman is speaking, elf-pavlik 00:47:44 hadleybeeman: introduced herself. story about needing to make crx very clear in the beginning, to smooth discussions with the director 00:48:53 test or validation? 00:49:40 jasnell: AS1.0 did not define conformance. now with implementations can define within test sutie for 2.0 00:49:44 ...to smooth discussions with the director and to avoid discovering unexpected confusion later on. 00:49:49 s/sutie/suite/s 00:49:51 EdK meant to say: jasnell: AS1.0 did not define conformance. now with implementations can define within test suite for 2.0 00:51:00 KevinMarks: "test or validation" wrt AS? 00:51:46 harry: hard to test based on user experience, so parser is default 00:51:53 q? 00:52:23 sandro: just testing whether the stream has valid syntax is not a test of a consumer. 00:52:32 Arnaud: lets keep on going with actions, it is useful. haven't said anything about dederation, should we ahve an action 00:52:52 s/dederation/federation/s 00:52:53 EdK meant to say: Arnaud: lets keep on going with actions, it is useful. haven't said anything about federation, should we ahve an action 00:52:56 sandro: so some kind of round-tripping? 00:52:59 https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Federation_candidates 00:53:12 s/sandro:/sandro,/ 00:53:14 sandro meant to say: sandro, just testing whether the stream has valid syntax is not a test of a consumer. 00:54:11 KevinMarks, I don't really have much idea, other than manual testing. It seems like a really hard problem. 00:54:13 AnnBassetti: I don't now, I disconnected and reconnected 00:54:16 thanks :) 00:55:10 consumers can be judged by number of users, which can be documented rather easily if there are products with X customers or in open-source products where you can list number of subscribers/users. 00:55:21 ISSUE: need candidates for federation protocol 00:55:21 Created ISSUE-9 - Need candidates for federation protocol. Please complete additional details at . 00:55:32 ISSUE: need candidates for Social API 00:55:32 Created ISSUE-10 - Need candidates for social api. Please complete additional details at . 00:55:39 https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Social_API_candidates 00:55:49 So, if we have a parser for a project with no subscribers or a product with no estimated number of users, then it doesn't count in my book. 00:56:06 is micropub also federation? 00:56:15 That's why W3C didn't want to launch group till we had some clear products that were interested in the space. 00:56:23 reminder: tomorrow meeting with schema.org - https://www.w3.org/wiki/TPAC2014/SessionIdeas#Schema.org_and_Social_WG 00:56:24 Since its harder to tell with open-source projects 00:56:31 hhalpin: that all looks fine to me. I'm not fussed how you measure conformance or what the CR exit criteria are — just don't want you all to end up frustrated with this later! 00:56:33 micropub does indeed count as a federation. 00:56:54 I need to drop off 00:57:00 sounds like things are wrapping up anyway 00:57:03 annB says her browser crashed 00:57:04 thank you, all! 00:57:04 I'm also totally happy with things not going to Rec if they don't have users. 00:57:28 AnnBassetti: and thanks again for handling the recording 00:57:45 cwebber2, come back for picture! 00:57:54 AnnBassetti, no need! 00:58:11 we take one next summer in Europe :) 00:58:26 Arnaud: closes meeting, time for pictures 00:58:30 great job everyone!!! 00:59:01 trackbot, end meeting 00:59:01 Zakim, list attendees 00:59:01 sorry, trackbot, I don't know what conference this is 00:59:05 RRSAgent, generate minutes 00:59:05 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/28-social-minutes.html hhalpin 00:59:09 RRSAgent, please draft minutes 00:59:09 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/28-social-minutes.html trackbot 00:59:10 RRSAgent, bye 00:59:10 I see 16 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/27-social-actions.rdf : 00:59:10 ACTION: See if BradFitz did sign on off W3C OWF licensing. [1] 00:59:10 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/27-social-irc#T22-55-08 00:59:10 ACTION: hhalpin to see if BradFitz did sign on off W3C OWF licensing. [2] 00:59:10 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/27-social-irc#T22-55-19 00:59:10 ACTION: hhalpin to cycle with Wendy and Google on PUSH licensing [3] 00:59:10 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/28-social-irc#T00-12-12 00:59:10 ACTION: arnaud to set up a doodle poll for next F2F, with 1st week of Feb and March [4] 00:59:10 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/28-social-irc#T17-53-33 00:59:10 ACTION: identify a liaison between the two WGs [5] 00:59:10 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/28-social-irc#T23-08-17 00:59:10 ACTION: KevinMarks to act as liaison between the two WGs [6] 00:59:10 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/28-social-irc#T23-09-03 00:59:10 ACTION: kmarks2 to act as liaison between the two WGs [7] 00:59:10 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/28-social-irc#T23-09-52 00:59:10 ACTION: James Snell will look at web annotation model and figure out how it maps into social work [8] 00:59:10 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/28-social-irc#T23-13-36 00:59:10 ACTION: azaroth to look at the Social WG FPWD [9] 00:59:10 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/28-social-irc#T23-14-03 00:59:10 ACTION: jasnell to look at web annotation model and figure out how it maps into social work [10] 00:59:10 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/28-social-irc#T23-15-01 00:59:10 ACTION: jsnell to look at web annotation model and figure out how it maps into social work [11] 00:59:10 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/28-social-irc#T23-15-17 00:59:10 ACTION: test suite for Activity Streams 2.0 [12] 00:59:10 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/28-social-irc#T00-43-38 00:59:10 ACTION: jasnell adapt Basic Schema from Activity Streams 1.0 to 2.0 [13] 00:59:10 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/28-social-irc#T00-45-31-1 00:59:10 ACTION: evanpro share verbs and object types from pump.io with jsnell before adapting basic schema [14] 00:59:10 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/28-social-irc#T00-46-03 00:59:10 ACTION: jsnell adapt Basic Schema from Activity Streams 1.0 to 2.0 [15] 00:59:10 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/28-social-irc#T00-46-29 00:59:10 ACTION: eprodrom share verbs and object types from pump.io with jsnell before adapting basic schema [16] 00:59:10 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/28-social-irc#T00-46-45-3 00:59:17 cwebber2, get back on video, eh? 00:59:23 Ann'll take screen shot 00:59:35 oh 00:59:35 okay 00:59:41 EdK: just in time :)