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15:49:31 <ivan_> Meeting: CSV on the Web WG, F2F meeting @ TPAC, 2014-10-28
15:49:46 <ivan_> Agenda: https://www.w3.org/2013/csvw/wiki/F2F_Agenda_2014-10
15:49:52 <ivan_> Chair: Jeni
15:50:28 <ivan_> rrsagent, this meeting spans midnight
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15:52:44 <jtandy> scribenick: laufer
15:53:11 <ivan_> Present: Jeni_Tennison, Dan_Brickley, Bill_Ingram, Jeremy_Tandy, Gregg_Gellogg, Axel_Poleres, Carlos_Laufer, Fabien_Gandon, Bart_van_Leeuwen, Ivan_Herman, Eric_Stephan
15:53:47 <ivan_> rrsagent, set log public
15:53:57 <ivan_> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:53:57 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/28-csvw-minutes.html ivan_
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16:00:13 <ivan_> Present+ Phil_Archer
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16:01:26 <laufer> JeniT: first session about templating
16:01:50 <laufer> ... jenit talking about thw work during the day
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16:02:06 <danbri> (did anyone talk to Liam about XML, I forget the exact question that was to be put to him)
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16:04:51 <laufer> ivan_: talking about the simple mapping
16:05:13 <laufer> datatype mapping is complicated
16:05:41 <laufer> ivan_: datatype mapping is complicated
16:06:04 <danbri> see also https://github.com/w3c/csvw/issues https://github.com/w3c/csvw/labels/CSV%20to%20RDF/JSON%20mapping and nearby
16:06:29 <ivan_> http://www.w3.org/2014/Talks/1028-CSVW-IH/Overview.html
16:06:32 <laufer> gkellogg: picture strings for validation
16:07:59 <laufer> ivan_: we shoud nor have rdf or xml in the sintax
16:08:46 <laufer> ...row level templates and table templates
16:10:21 <laufer> ... talking about the simplest template...
16:11:22 <laufer> ... ...talking about teh table level and the row level...
16:11:42 <JeniT> compare to http://liquidmarkup.org/
16:11:55 <laufer> ... explainig flters line unix piping
16:12:06 <gkellogg> q+ use of Promises for filters?
16:12:29 <laufer> ... recursion is complicated
16:12:58 <JeniT> q+ gkellog to ask about the use of promises for filters
16:13:24 <laufer> ... typical filters: uppe lower row_number replace etc.
16:13:28 <AxelPolleres> q+ to ask about global vs column keys (slide 6)…
16:14:42 <laufer> ... the srguments itself are strings
16:14:59 <danbri> q+
16:15:10 <danbri> q-
16:15:47 <laufer> ... presenting some examples
16:16:00 <danbri> q+ to suggest that we evaluate our experience with 'advanced mappings' (mustache, r2RML etc) for useful common patterns to special case into our REC-track Simple Mapping)
16:16:50 <laufer> ... I have implemented a jquery extension...
16:17:51 <danbri> q+ to ask how the js structured passed into templates compare to simple mapping json (same?)
16:19:16 <AxelPolleres> http://iherman.github.io/CSVPlus/test-templateonly.html
16:19:58 <laufer> ... listing possible additions as for example escape characters in templates
16:20:42 <laufer> ... another example: inclusion of URI template
16:21:14 <JeniT> q?
16:21:18 <JeniT> ack gkellog
16:21:18 <Zakim> gkellog, you wanted to ask about the use of promises for filters
16:21:58 <laufer> gkellogg: asking about using promisses
16:22:11 <AxelPolleres> ivan, one possible other issue/conflict I see is when (slide 6) global keys have the same name as column names.
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16:22:34 <JeniT> ack AxelPolleres
16:22:34 <Zakim> AxelPolleres, you wanted to ask about global vs column keys (slide 6)…
16:22:38 <AxelPolleres> q-
16:22:47 <danbri> ack me
16:22:47 <Zakim> danbri, you wanted to suggest that we evaluate our experience with 'advanced mappings' (mustache, r2RML etc) for useful common patterns to special case into our REC-track Simple
16:22:50 <Zakim> ... Mapping) and to ask how the js structured passed into templates compare to simple mapping json (same?)
16:23:25 <laufer> danbri: looking more to rdf mappings
16:24:00 <laufer> danbri: moustache needs javascript objects
16:24:18 <laufer> ivan_: my first implementation uses moustache
16:24:39 <laufer> Zakim: I hope to giving metadata to moustache it would work
16:24:57 <laufer> ... I had to extrat the data in the metadata
16:25:41 <laufer> ... you have to extratct the data and transform to a format that moustache understands
16:26:42 <laufer> JeniT: if you do a implementation in moustache and uses the json object, it is possible to use in moustache?
16:27:07 <laufer> ivan_:  moustache ask for a simple name:value pairs
16:27:39 <jtandy> q?
16:27:42 <danbri> [according to http://stackoverflow.com/questions/8912540/how-to-access-nested-objects-with-mustache-js-templating-engine you can go deeper into js(on) structures with mustache]
16:27:44 <jtandy> q+
16:28:32 <laufer> ...  the way I used is a replace to a simple mappin
16:28:39 <laufer> ... mapping
16:29:06 <JeniT> ack jtandy
16:30:09 <laufer> jtandy: the metadata needs to reference the template
16:30:51 <JeniT> q?
16:31:35 <laufer> JeniT: has a template media-type
16:33:36 <laufer> JeniT: templates have to media_type:
16:33:57 <laufer> ... targetType: application/json
16:34:09 <danbri> q+ re target type - granularity
16:34:30 <laufer> ... templateType: application/mustache
16:34:45 <JeniT> q?
16:35:04 <JeniT> ack danbri
16:35:04 <Zakim> danbri, you wanted to discuss target type - granularity
16:35:12 <laufer> ivan_: what does the template apply
16:37:11 <JeniT> http://www.w3.org/ns/formats/
16:37:23 <danbri> Is there a spec for URIs for media types?
16:37:25 <ivan_> http://www.w3.org/ns/formats/
16:37:42 <JeniT> http://www.iana.org/assignments/media-types/application/cdmi-queue
16:38:29 <phila> See also the European Union publications office that is defining URIs for file formats that goes beyond media types http://publications.europa.eu/mdr/authority/file-type/index.html
16:38:47 <danbri> JSON-LD -> http://www.iana.org/assignments/media-types/application/ld+json
16:39:16 <laufer> JeniT: use URI for targetType and templateType
16:39:34 <danbri> 1 . https://github.com/w3c/csvw/blob/gh-pages/examples/tests/scenarios/events/source/events-listing.csv
16:40:24 <danbri> 2. https://github.com/w3c/csvw/blob/gh-pages/examples/tests/scenarios/events/output/expected-triples.txt
16:41:19 <danbri> 3. https://github.com/w3c/csvw/blob/gh-pages/examples/tests/scenarios/events/attempts/attempt-1/mapping-events.rml.ttl
16:44:56 <ericP> -> http://www.w3.org/TR/owl2-primer/#OWL_Syntaxes OWL 2 Primer gives readers a serialization choice
16:45:24 <danbri> https://raw.githubusercontent.com/w3c/csvw/gh-pages/examples/tests/scenarios/chinook/ChinookSchema.PNG
16:45:27 <laufer> danbri: explaining a r2rml example
16:45:29 <ericP> q?
16:46:00 <laufer> ivan_: fits nice to the cross references
16:47:40 <phila> laufer: You're saying that this is an RDB and you're using R2RML
16:47:50 <phila> ... but these things are in CSV files or RDB?
16:48:07 <phila> danbri: Actually, I had to create the CSVs as the Chinook DB only gives you the RDB
16:48:22 <phila> laufer: There are lots of tools to do that
16:48:34 <phila> ... you have the relational database, you have a lot of tools available
16:49:12 <JeniT> q?
16:49:31 <danbri> (see https://github.com/w3c/csvw/blob/gh-pages/examples/tests/scenarios/chinook/chinook_tocsv.sh for the sqlite to CSV script)
16:50:33 <danbri> q+ re template syntax - suggest a field for saying "CIDOC CRM" or "Data cube" via URL, alongside targetType URL
16:51:38 <laufer> ivan_: templates apllies to the output or directed in the data
16:52:34 <laufer> JeniT: if you have a csv generated from and excel file so you nedd one more type: a sourceType
16:53:56 <laufer> ivan_: the simple mapping of rdf does not defines the serialization
16:57:24 <danbri> q?
16:57:40 <jtandy> q+
16:57:45 <danbri> ack me
16:57:45 <Zakim> danbri, you wanted to discuss template syntax - suggest a field for saying "CIDOC CRM" or "Data cube" via URL, alongside targetType URL
16:57:54 <JeniT> q+ to ask about templates interacting with schemas
17:00:07 <phila> ivan_: The templateType is now a URL that identifies a processor ID
17:00:09 <danbri> me: targetType is overloaded — a media type is in a different kind of thing
17:00:18 <phila> ivan_: that works on the data
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17:00:35 <phila> ... and the processor tells you what else should be included, but we cannot really define that
17:01:37 <phila> jtandy: We need a name to be able to say I want to use this template, so each template needs to have an ID
17:01:51 <phila> ... that might only be a textual description of what it does
17:01:54 <jtandy> q-
17:02:10 <ivan_> scribenick: phila
17:02:25 <phila> JeniT: In other places, you might want a title
17:02:34 <phila> q?
17:02:57 <phila> jtandy: Yesterday we talked about the need to pre-process a CSV before you parse it. That's a different kettle of fish
17:03:14 <phila> ... we could say that if you need to do that then it's out of scope for this
17:03:38 <phila> ... my example was a CSV that had separate columns for months and days that need to be merged which is hard for templating
17:03:48 <phila> ... I'd like to be able to do that but ...
17:04:06 <phila> JeniT: So you;re asking whether we should have a similar mechism for processing hte imnput as we're talking about for the output
17:04:10 <danbri> (i'm not going to over-argue for it now, but overloading targetType media type to say "Dublin Core" etc seems absolutely the wrong place for that detail, and a URI is needed alongside name/title/blurb etc.)
17:04:24 <phila> ivan_: That's doable with your URL templates
17:04:47 <phila> jtandy: But I want a triple derived from values in two cells but in the simple mapping we're talking about 2 triples
17:04:59 <phila> JeniT: By the template on the output should give you control over that?
17:05:25 <phila> jtandy: It may be an edge case to require pre-processing, but I'd still like simple mapping ro deal with that seemingly simple case
17:05:53 <phila> JeniT: So I've heard reqs: 1 to creatre more than one object from each row; 2 to create one output from two cells
17:06:02 <phila> ivan_: The second is covered by the URI template
17:06:20 <phila> gkellogg: To create a URI, yes, but not, say, a date
17:06:49 <phila> JeniT: I think we need to make a scoping decision on this
17:06:59 <phila> ivan_: I'm afraid of opening the gates of hell...
17:07:16 <AxelPolleres> q+
17:07:18 <gkellogg> q+
17:07:20 <JeniT> ack AxelPolleres
17:07:34 <phila> AxelPolleres: These 2 reqs are doable with R2RML or the templating
17:07:42 <danbri> q+
17:07:44 <phila> ... is that something we can scope with a fragment of R2RML?
17:08:05 <phila> danbri: The turtle I showed had a lot of complication & redundancy there was
17:08:09 <JeniT> ack danbri
17:08:22 <phila> ... what I'd like to be able to do is take that as a JSON format and generate the R2RML from it
17:08:53 <phila> ivan_: As soon as we begin to go into specifying this and that feature - that's what we did all spring
17:09:04 <phila> ... we keep re-doing this
17:09:14 <phila> ... I think we should take what's there as simply as possible
17:09:25 <danbri> q+ to read from charter, "The output of the mapping mechanism for RDF MUST be consistent with either the http://www.w3.org/TR/rdb-direct-mapping/ or http://www.w3.org/TR/r2rml/ so that if a table from a relational database is exported as CSV and then mapped it produces semantically identical data."
17:09:26 <phila> ... defining a proper subset of R2RML is a lot of work
17:09:53 <danbri> I propose to strike from the charter, "The output of the mapping mechanism for RDF MUST be consistent with either the http://www.w3.org/TR/rdb-direct-mapping/ or http://www.w3.org/TR/r2rml/ so that if a table from a relational database is exported as CSV and then mapped it produces semantically identical data."
17:09:53 <phila> ivan_: If we want to go into more complex templates then we need to go through the exercise I did and I showed that there is still more to do.
17:10:00 <phila> ... we don't have the capacity to do that
17:10:06 <phila> ... that's my frustration
17:10:15 <phila> ... 6 months haggling around the conversion side
17:10:17 <JeniT> ack gkellogg
17:10:40 <phila> gkellogg: I'm also wary of something ugly. We've more or less decided to using the URI template.
17:10:53 <phila> ... I've looked at extending that to cover strings, not just URIs
17:11:08 <phila> ... I couldn't find an implementation in Ruby - it wasn't too challenging to do it
17:11:20 <phila> ivan_: We're running ahead into the next session here
17:11:33 <phila> ... but I'd say we take the Template RFC as is and leave it as is
17:11:41 <phila> ... what it gives us is where we stop
17:12:07 <phila> ... I put up an answer to something Jeremy sent round. I included a reference to a list of implementations of that RFC in many languages
17:12:11 <AxelPolleres> Can we do the same with R2RML (i.e. just refer to it via providing a “hook”)? Do we have that hook already?
17:12:16 <JeniT> q?
17:12:18 <phila> ... we do a disservce if we fiddle around with it
17:12:19 <JeniT> ack danbri
17:12:19 <Zakim> danbri, you wanted to read from charter, "The output of the mapping mechanism for RDF MUST be consistent with either the http://www.w3.org/TR/rdb-direct-mapping/ or
17:12:22 <Zakim> ... http://www.w3.org/TR/r2rml/ so that if a table from a relational database is exported as CSV and then mapped it produces semantically identical data."
17:12:34 <phila> danbri: I wanted to make a tech point and a process point
17:13:03 <phila> danbri: I triggered a rant from you on what I thought was uncontentious. A paragraph could describe what it would look like in R2RML
17:13:29 <phila> danbri: Quotes the charter on relationship with RDB and R2RML
17:13:39 <JeniT> q+ AxelPolleres
17:13:46 <jtandy> q+
17:13:56 <JeniT> ack AxelPolleres
17:13:57 <phila> ivan_: In the back of my mind - if you want to do RDF then we should be compatible with the simple mapping
17:14:11 <phila> AxelPolleres: Do we have a hook for referring just to an R2RML mapping?
17:14:20 <JeniT> ack jtandy
17:14:23 <phila> danbri: Nearly, yes - it's on the whiteboard
17:14:53 <phila> jtandy: Having listened, I understand the nervousness... but I am thinking about how I could help deliver
17:15:19 <phila> ... I don't think it's going to be uncommon to flag a column as a do not process
17:15:41 <AxelPolleres> hook to R2RML is enough to fullfill the charter, right? a shortcut notation/nicer syntax for some restricted fragment of R2RML is something somebody else could do later on…
17:15:48 <phila> Reference to UK Gov time periods
17:15:59 <danbri> see also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Data_URI_scheme
17:16:07 <phila> jtandy: If what you wanted to do was to create a string then wouldn't the templating stuff be helpful
17:16:26 <danbri> data:image/png;base64,iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAAAUAAAAFCAYAAACNbyblAAAAHElEQVQI12P4//8/w38GIAXDIBKE0DHxgljNBAAO9TXL0Y4OHwAAAABJRU5ErkJggg==
17:16:34 <phila> ivan_: I guess the implementations are string to string mapping with a few tricks to make them URIs
17:16:49 <phila> jtandy: It does have a few issues - escaping special characters tec/
17:16:57 <phila> JeniT: I would like a decision on...
17:17:45 <phila> PROPOSED: For now, and without limiting our future work, that we scope to the simplest possible thing that might work and therefore do not have multi-object per line or multiple columns per line
17:18:46 <phila> ivan_: If I put the CSV into Oracle and I run the direct mapping, and I take the CSV and run the simple mapping, then the two outputs must be equivalent graphs
17:19:32 <AxelPolleres> IMHO, s/equivalent/entailed/ …
17:19:46 <AxelPolleres> … because of some extra triples we might have.
17:20:12 <AxelPolleres> q+
17:20:48 <JeniT> ack AxelPolleres
17:21:03 <phila> danbri: If our templating said here's how to generate DC, we should perhaps have a paragraph that says these are similar but not the same as R2RML
17:21:25 <phila> AxelPolleres: The question is whether more complex things are in the spec or just say that it can be done
17:22:05 <phila> ivan_: Writing a Note on how these things can be done in R2RML is fine - but we have to do it
17:22:05 <danbri> Axel, let's look at that in coffee break. see https://github.com/mmlab/RMLProcessor/blob/master/src/main/java/be/ugent/mmlab/rml/core/RMLMappingFactory.java#L94
17:22:12 <JeniT> PROPOSED: For now, and without limiting our future work, that we scope to the simplest possible thing that might work and therefore do not have multi-object per line or multiple columns per line
17:22:25 <JeniT> +1
17:22:26 <ivan_> +1
17:22:26 <gkellogg> +1
17:22:36 <ericstephan> +1
17:22:37 <danbri> 0
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17:22:49 <JeniT> PROPOSED: For now, and without limiting our future work, that we scope to the simplest possible thing that might work and therefore do not have multi-object per line or multiple columns per value
17:22:52 <AxelPolleres> +0 (as I find the proposal quite abstract)
17:22:54 <bill-ingram> +1
17:23:00 <jtandy> 0 ... accepting the need to drive for simplicity
17:23:42 <ivan_> +1
17:24:13 <phila> q+
17:24:29 <danbri> +0.9
17:24:36 <jtandy> +1 ... "without limiting our future work"
17:24:42 <JeniT> ack phila
17:24:47 <ivan_> RESOLUTION: For now, and without limiting our future work, that we scope to the simplest possible thing that might work and therefore do not have multi-object per line or multiple columns per value
17:26:03 <danbri> phila: let's get these possible work items into SOTD of the relevant spec(s)
17:26:35 <danbri> phila: I'd like to use this to help attract more effort towards adding these features - "this is limited because" … with an URL for that, so I can send it around to potential contributors
17:26:49 <gkellogg> q+
17:29:12 <JeniT> ACTION: jtandy and ivan to add some text in the mapping spec(s) to indicate the limit in scope and the other features that could be added given more capacity
17:29:12 <trackbot> Created ACTION-43 - And ivan to add some text in the mapping spec(s) to indicate the limit in scope and the other features that could be added given more capacity [on Jeremy Tandy - due 2014-11-04].
17:29:42 <phila> ivan_: A certain time has to pass between FPWD and going to CR - and we don't even have a FPWD
17:29:57 <phila> JeniT: So we need to get to FPWD ASAP to allow that period to pass
17:30:04 <JeniT> ack gkellogg
17:30:05 <phila> ack gkellogg
17:30:14 <jtandy> some of that future work might include being able to use SPARQL Property Paths [http://www.w3.org/TR/sparql11-query/#propertypaths] instead just a simple RDF predicate when defining the semantics relating to a particular column ... and some magic to conflate intermediate blank nodes
17:30:32 <phila> gkellogg: It strikes me that if someone has thoughts on how a simple mapping can cover these case then it would be good to know about it
17:30:55 <danbri> suggestion for ivan: add to simple RDF mapping SOTD a sentence saying something like "The WG solicits input on the value of providing a mapping from single CSV rows into multiple inter-related typed entities, rather than all fields becoming properties of a single entity in the output graph."
17:31:00 <phila> ... the alternative is the template mechanism - that can create more complex outputs. Simple things simple, complex things possible
17:31:13 <phila> ivan_: For now it's on GiHub, the description is in MarkDown...
17:31:35 <phila> JeniT: There's an extension mechanism that we can point to
17:31:53 <phila> ivan_: We have less than a year to complete the work
17:32:13 <JeniT> ack JeniT
17:32:13 <Zakim> JeniT, you wanted to ask about templates interacting with schemas
17:32:25 <phila> gkellogg: If we can't get out of here because we have not met the use cases... we might have to have a very slight complication to the simple mapping or a template mech
17:32:41 <phila> ... and if we can't even specify a template mech than it seems we won't complete our charter
17:32:43 <AxelPolleres> still don’t understand why we need more than a hook to R2RML where we say that other languages can be plugged in, do we?
17:32:47 <phila> RRSAgent, draft minutes
17:32:47 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/28-csvw-minutes.html phila
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17:51:13 <danbri> scribenick: danbri
17:51:15 <ivan_> Present+ Hadley_Beeman
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17:51:25 <danbri> topic: Identifiers
17:52:04 <danbri> jenit: One of the big requirements that we have for creating mappings to RDF, also other formats, is creating URLs/URIs from data within CSV files. A syntax that exists is the URI Templates RFC.
17:52:18 <hadleybeeman> Present+ Hadleybeeman
17:52:22 <danbri> jtandy: [presents slides based on the RFC]
17:52:24 <danbri> url?
17:53:11 <danbri> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-csv-wg/2014Oct/att-0080/RFC6570-uri-template-overview.pdf
17:53:33 <danbri> jtandy: … you can run it reverse, harvest variables (but we're not doing that)
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17:54:14 <danbri> jtandy: there are 4 levels. Simple String expansion. "hello World!" -> Hello%20%21 etc.
17:54:29 <danbri> percent encoding of chars not in ...
17:54:48 <danbri> … if I have reserved string expansion, that is a list of chars that dont get converted.
17:55:37 <danbri> use of +, # etc for special kinds of expansion
17:55:56 <hadleybeeman> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6570
17:55:59 <danbri> see also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/URL_Template
17:56:30 <danbri>  … undefined variables
17:56:55 <danbri> level 3: simple expansion with multiple variables
17:57:21 <danbri> comma separated lists
17:57:36 <danbri> also reserved string expansion with several variables
17:58:04 <danbri> label expansion: X{.x,Y} => X.1024.768
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17:58:47 <danbri> (discussion of other chars in place of ., e.g. /
17:59:11 <danbri> {/var,x}/here => /value/124/here
18:01:01 <danbri> (it has some treatment of ampersands)
18:01:14 <danbri> {?x,y} => ?x=1024&y=768
18:01:54 <danbri> jtandy: You can see that they're all for dealing with common URI structures
18:02:05 <danbri> … it gets more complex. 9/10 of the things you want to do are probably level 1 templates
18:02:18 <danbri> level 4: you can aske for 3 chars, or 1st 30 chars, {var:3}
18:02:28 <danbri> true for all combinations, plus signs etc.
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18:02:35 <danbri> level 4 explode modifier
18:02:42 <danbri> list as an array of values
18:02:59 <danbri> list := ("red","green","blue")
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18:04:42 <danbri> jtandy: you can build up some pretty complex things, … can get confusing.
18:04:52 <danbri> … more details see slides.
18:05:00 <danbri> q?
18:05:14 <danbri> hadley: are you proposing adopting the entire thing for identifiers?
18:05:19 <danbri> jtandy: a q for the group.
18:05:46 <danbri> … we said didn't want to partly adopt it, as some people have implemented whole thing, … better to say we support the whole thing as-is rather than profiling it
18:06:05 <danbri> the level 1-4 terminology comes from the spec, i.e. RFC 6570
18:06:18 <danbri> jtandy: I imagine all 4 will be useful at some stage
18:06:28 <danbri> … there are a healthy number of implementations
18:07:30 <danbri> jtandy: nothing I read in RFC said "you can't use this for dealing with string transformations"
18:08:22 <danbri> danbri: any risk re i18n if we used it beyond its intended scope?
18:08:29 <danbri> …apparently it supports IRIs at least
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18:08:36 <danbri> gregg: so this might appear in the metadata document?
18:08:53 <danbri> jenit: this is point of the discussion now: there are 2 obv places where we might want to generate URLs
18:09:15 <danbri> (I'll always say URL name… but mean URI/IRI etc)
18:09:42 <danbri> jenit: if simple mapping rdf, creating identifier for a row, we might want that to be composed from different fields. Other is actual values, esp for RDF but also JSON
18:09:48 <danbri> … we might want to create urls ther
18:09:50 <danbri> e
18:10:12 <danbri> ivan: let's take the 2 separately
18:10:31 <danbri> … for the rows, what would be the relationship of a template there, and a … [key column value thingy]
18:10:50 <danbri> … in the metadata today, you have the possibility of … certain columns to be key columns
18:10:58 <danbri> primary keys
18:11:12 <danbri> ivan: at moment, the way the mapping is defined, ..
18:11:38 <danbri> ivan: see example in document
18:12:25 <danbri> ivan: if there isn't a primary key its an empty object
18:12:36 <danbri> if is, uri created with a base, … using dash concatenation
18:12:42 <danbri> … exact same as in the direct mapping
18:12:56 <danbri> … if we have additionally possibility to add a row level … [missed]
18:13:06 <danbri> … which mechanism do i use to define a uri template for a row?
18:13:25 <danbri> ivan: I can have that, … if doesn't exist and there are primary keys, … [missing detail]
18:13:55 <danbri> gregg: purpose of primary key is to spec the subject of the result
18:13:59 <danbri> … why not just a uri templ?
18:14:57 <danbri> suggestion to make primaryKey a URI template
18:15:09 <danbri> jenit: primaryKey was copied from JSON Table schema, a column or array
18:15:21 <danbri> … it is in json table schema, not really defined
18:15:41 <danbri> … spec doesn't get into validation
18:15:54 <danbri> ivan: what this tells me: nobody would shout at us if this is what we do
18:16:29 <danbri> jenit: worth trying that. It might be that rufus objects … worth proposing
18:16:51 <danbri> ivan: another Q, probably valid for columns, …  Do we have one template, or templates per target media types
18:17:07 <danbri> e.g. into JSON, and only for JSON users, why would I put the example.org, entire URI?
18:17:23 <danbri> jenit: if you were generating json from this, what does it look like?
18:17:35 <danbri> ivan: it has the @id, … with the cell value not whole expanded thing
18:17:42 <danbri> jtandy: logically there is no difference
18:17:47 <danbri> ivan: yes & no
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18:18:12 <danbri> … the way it works if I produce a JSON, … that there is a base that I put into the @context, and then I use only the expanded part in the object itself
18:18:34 <danbri> … if ppl don't care about URIs they don't get it (whereas json-ld view will get a URI)
18:18:46 <danbri> if I use http://example.org/{GID} everyone has to deal with URIs
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18:19:43 <danbri> ...
18:20:14 <danbri> jenit: my inclination is to say that … if a primary key (or whatever we call it) is specified in this way, or "row ID", … then putting @id on each of the objects within json output is absolutely fine
18:20:20 <danbri> … if not specified, don't have @id
18:20:25 <danbri> … equiv of a blank node
18:20:56 <danbri> ivan: that would be for the rows. For each column(s), rows or cells, i would add a template to generate the value
18:21:25 <danbri> jenit: e.g. you could have:
18:21:29 <JeniT> "urlTemplate": "http://example.org/species/{species}"
18:21:41 <danbri> … inside columns
18:22:34 <danbri> ivan: if for a cell, that key exists, then the expanded one for rdf will be turned into a URI resource.
18:22:50 <danbri> … and that means if we want to be consistent with the json-ld view, then the json output would be an object with an @id being the URI
18:22:54 <danbri> jenit: or just the URL
18:23:02 <danbri> … with possibly a @context
18:23:16 <danbri> ivan: who puts the context there?
18:23:28 <danbri> jenit: my inclination is to not generate a @context
18:23:44 <danbri> jtandy: like "homepage" example yesterday
18:24:00 <danbri> gregg: i'll always argue that we should output a context to make it json-ld
18:24:11 <danbri> … so you don't have to concoct a context and manually expand it
18:24:25 <danbri> jenit: if you really really care about getting some RDF out, use the simple rdf mapping
18:24:33 <danbri> ivan: is there a JSON-LD "tidy" program?
18:24:42 <danbri> gregg: by compacting a document it effectively tidies it
18:25:06 <danbri> ivan: i am perfectly fine then to say that what we produce as json-ld, we say you'll have to compact it with a json-ld prociessor
18:25:19 <danbri> ivan: simplest case, an object with that @id with a URI, and i don't generate a @context
18:25:45 <danbri> jenit: I was arguing that we generate something that looks like: "species": "http://example.org/species/ash"
18:26:04 <danbri> … this would require a context to understand that the value was an URL
18:26:10 <danbri> … wheres you (ivan) are asking for
18:26:26 <danbri> "species": { "@id": "http://example.org/species/ash" }
18:26:33 <danbri> ivan: it's important to represent when something is a URI
18:26:44 <danbri> … if you want to make it more aesthetic run it through a json-ld compactor
18:26:56 <danbri> gregg: would it not be unreasonable to add the predicates within each of these things
18:27:22 <danbri> [missing detail]
18:28:21 <danbri> ivan: the fact of having a predicate is a diff issue
18:28:29 <danbri> … what I am concerned about is … what will be the value?
18:28:39 <danbri> jtandy: if you understand what predicate you are using, you can build the context as you go
18:28:48 <danbri> … to say that the object of this predicate has to be an @id
18:29:07 <danbri> gregg: you have "datatype" there; if you said "id" there, it gives you enough to say that "species" takes identifiers not strings
18:29:23 <danbri> … I don't think that really complicates things
18:29:36 <danbri> jenit: if you want to stay in an rdf ecosystem, use the rdf mapping
18:29:44 <danbri> … not make the json mapping all RDFy
18:30:00 <danbri> if you really want to make some nice json-ld … go via rdf
18:30:11 <danbri> q+