00:01:09 <myakura> myakura has joined #css
00:01:44 <masatakayakura> masatakayakura has joined #css
00:01:51 <bradk> bradk has joined #css
00:01:59 <Cyril> Cyril has joined #css
00:03:00 <myakura_> myakura_ has joined #css
00:08:45 <zcorpan> zcorpan has joined #css
00:19:06 <babatakao> babatakao has joined #css
00:24:45 <iank> iank has joined #css
00:29:11 <Cyril> Cyril has joined #css
00:34:21 <babatakao> babatakao has joined #css
00:35:22 <emalasky> emalasky has joined #css
00:40:08 <jdaggett> jdaggett has joined #css
00:49:38 <babatakao> babatakao has joined #css
00:52:28 <tantek> tantek has joined #css
01:03:35 <liam> liam has joined #css
01:04:56 <babatakao> babatakao has joined #css
01:06:15 <tantek> tantek has joined #css
01:07:45 <dauwhe> dauwhe has joined #css
01:11:00 <kangil> kangil has joined #css
01:11:30 <estellevw> estellevw has joined #css
01:12:16 <tantek> tantek has joined #css
01:20:09 <babatakao> babatakao has joined #css
01:25:33 <iank> iank has joined #css
01:35:22 <babatakao> babatakao has joined #css
02:08:22 <dauwhe> dauwhe has joined #css
02:15:09 <smfr> smfr has joined #css
02:26:01 <smfr> smfr has joined #css
02:45:19 <myakura> myakura has joined #css
03:07:49 <dauwhe> dauwhe has joined #css
03:12:14 <florian> florian has joined #css
03:12:56 <florian> I heard someone was looking for me, but not who was. Anybody knows?
03:17:42 <nvdbleek> nvdbleek has joined #css
03:27:55 <florian> florian has joined #css
03:36:16 <florian> florian has joined #css
03:46:20 <bradk> bradk has joined #css
03:48:34 <dholbert> dholbert has joined #css
03:50:52 <dholbert_> dholbert_ has joined #css
03:53:19 <bobtung> bobtung has joined #css
04:00:27 <zcorpan> zcorpan has joined #css
04:08:18 <dauwhe> dauwhe has joined #css
04:09:19 <paul___irish> paul___irish has joined #css
04:11:38 <jdaggett> jdaggett has joined #css
04:30:40 <jrossi> jrossi has joined #css
04:36:05 <dauwhe> dauwhe has joined #css
04:42:40 <florian> florian has joined #css
04:51:50 <masatakayakura> masatakayakura has joined #css
05:04:28 <iank> iank has joined #css
05:09:44 <jcraig> jcraig has joined #css
05:14:45 <dbaron> dbaron has joined #css
05:23:26 <jcraig> jcraig has joined #css
05:32:42 <florian> florian has joined #css
05:45:19 <tantek> tantek has joined #css
05:52:42 <shans__> shans__ has joined #css
05:55:57 <myakura> myakura has joined #css
06:01:15 <liam> liam has joined #css
06:12:16 <myakura> myakura has joined #css
06:20:10 <stakagi> stakagi has joined #css
06:28:17 <florian1> florian1 has joined #css
06:45:44 <stakagi> stakagi has joined #css
07:01:26 <florian> florian has joined #css
07:32:05 <Ms2ger> Ms2ger has joined #css
07:41:34 <anssik> anssik has joined #css
07:45:26 <ArronEi> ArronEi has joined #css
08:05:33 <jdaggett> jdaggett has joined #css
08:33:30 <babatakao> babatakao has joined #css
08:57:50 <dholbert> dholbert has joined #css
08:58:48 <lajava> lajava has joined #css
09:00:04 <Ms2ger`> Ms2ger` has joined #css
10:04:42 <Ms2ger`> Ms2ger` has joined #css
10:21:37 <Cyril> Cyril has joined #css
10:36:50 <Ms2ger`> Ms2ger` has joined #css
11:02:07 <zcorpan> zcorpan has joined #css
11:14:35 <lajava> lajava has joined #css
11:36:29 <nvdbleek> nvdbleek has joined #css
11:46:12 <Ms2ger`> Ms2ger` has joined #css
11:48:10 <darktears> darktears has joined #css
11:53:20 <Cyril> Cyril has joined #css
12:01:53 <tantek> tantek has joined #css
12:23:48 <dholbert> dholbert has joined #css
12:52:43 <myakura> myakura has joined #css
13:30:33 <Ms2ger`> Ms2ger` has joined #css
13:41:41 <vollick> vollick has joined #css
13:56:06 <lajava> lajava has joined #css
14:17:48 <rbyers> rbyers has left #css
14:17:50 <rbyers> rbyers has joined #css
14:40:39 <florian> florian has joined #css
14:42:16 <iank> iank has joined #css
14:47:39 <florian1> florian1 has joined #css
15:01:06 <myakura> myakura has joined #css
15:01:27 <iank> iank has joined #css
15:05:32 <emalasky> emalasky has joined #css
15:18:14 <nsakai2> nsakai2 has joined #css
15:19:04 <kurosawa> kurosawa has joined #css
15:21:02 <babatakao> babatakao has joined #css
15:25:17 <nvdbleek> nvdbleek has joined #css
15:26:27 <Cyril> Cyril has joined #css
15:27:41 <ArronEi> ArronEi has joined #css
15:31:31 <dbaron> dbaron has joined #css
15:31:41 <emalasky> emalasky has joined #css
15:32:09 <babatakao> babatakao has joined #css
15:32:13 <emalasky> emalasky has joined #css
15:35:53 <dbaron> dbaron has joined #css
15:38:31 <shepazu> shepazu has joined #css
15:42:43 <babatakao> babatakao has joined #css
15:45:14 <hiroto> hiroto has joined #css
15:46:27 <kurosawa> kurosawa has joined #css
15:47:23 <stakagi> stakagi has joined #css
15:49:10 <stakagi> stakagi has joined #css
15:49:25 <KeshavP> KeshavP has joined #CSS
15:52:59 <dael> dael has joined #css
15:53:12 <dael> ScribeNick: dael
15:56:04 <dauwhe> dauwhe has joined #css
15:58:18 <vollick> vollick has joined #css
16:00:53 <glenn> glenn has joined #css
16:01:11 <vollick_> vollick_ has joined #css
16:01:16 <hiroshi> hiroshi has joined #css
16:01:58 <glazou> glazou has joined #css
16:02:54 <zcorpan> zcorpan has joined #css
16:03:20 <bobtung> bobtung has joined #css
16:03:37 <andreyr> andreyr has joined #css
16:03:56 <myakura> myakura has joined #css
16:05:09 <yamamoto> yamamoto has joined #CSS
16:05:32 <anssik> anssik has joined #css
16:05:43 <hyojin> hyojin has joined #CSS
16:07:37 <nvdbleek> nvdbleek has joined #css
16:07:54 <smfr> smfr has joined #css
16:08:02 <bradk> bradk has joined #css
16:08:20 <plh> plh has joined #css
16:09:57 <bradk> bradk has joined #css
16:10:07 <hiroto> hiroto has joined #css
16:10:25 <adenilson> adenilson has joined #css
16:11:03 <dael> glazou: Welcome tot he second day of the CSS meeting.
16:11:21 <nsakai2> nsakai2 has joined #css
16:11:33 <dael> glenn: We have a few things for today. The wiki says animation behaviour, but that's this afternoon. We have flexbox issues, layout.
16:11:40 <dael> s/glenn/glazou
16:11:43 <florian> florian has joined #css
16:12:08 <dael> glazou: There's the AC meeting from 11-3, I will be there, plinss will chair until 2. Bert will chair for the 2-3 hour, thank you bert.
16:12:28 <dael> glazou: So we have flexbox issues?
16:13:10 <murakami> murakami has joined #css
16:13:10 <smfr> Simon Fraser
16:13:10 <vollick_> Ian Vollick, Google.
16:13:14 <SimonSapin> Simon Sapin, Mozilla
16:13:14 <Bert> Bert Bos, W3C
16:13:16 <florian> Florian Rivoal, Invited Expert
16:13:17 <dauwhe> Dave Cramer, Hachette Livre
16:13:17 <krit> Dirk Schulze, Adobe
16:13:19 <dbaron> David Baron, Mozilla
16:13:20 <zcorpan> Simon Pieters
16:13:22 <andreyr> Andrey Rybka, Bloomberg
16:13:25 <alant> alant has joined #css
16:13:25 <astearns> Alan Stearns, Adobe
16:13:26 <bobtung> Bobby Tung, Invited Expert
16:13:27 <shans__> shans__ has joined #css
16:13:29 <bradk> Brad Kemper, Invited Expert
16:13:30 <alant> Alan Turransky, IAB
16:13:31 <dael> MaRakow: do you mind if I present?
16:13:34 <shans__> Shane Stephens, Google
16:13:45 <dael> Topic: Discuss split layout/visual viewport and zoom types
16:13:59 <iank> iank has joined #css
16:14:09 <iank> Ian Kilpatrick, Google
16:14:20 <adenilson> adenilson has joined #css
16:14:25 <murakami> Shinyu Murakami, Vivliostyle/AntennaHouse
16:14:29 <dael> maRakow: I want to talk about what's missing from specs as they stand.
16:14:46 <dael> maRakow: The behaviours are for zooming in various ways and how we think about the viewport in various situations.
16:14:47 <hiroshi2> Hiroshi Sakakibara, Beyond Perspective Solutions, Japan
16:15:06 <dael> maRakow: There's a couple current discriptions that we have. In CSS OM we have page and pinch zoom.
16:15:10 <plinss> Peter Linss, HP
16:15:34 <yamamoto> Kazutaka Yamamoto, NTT
16:15:40 <glazou> Daniel Glazman, Disruptive Innovations, Co-chair
16:15:40 <dael> maRakow: And device adaptation actual viewport is the viewport used.
16:15:58 <dael> maRakow: First thing is why don't we have one zoom type. I'll go through this fast to ensure same page.
16:16:14 <dino_> dino_ has joined #css
16:16:22 <dael> maRakow: If we have a page content and we want to zoom there's two ways. Layout zoom where we inc size of content and everything rewraps within the viewport.
16:16:44 <dael> maRakow: WE do this for consistant zooms. This is something the user doesn't have negative issues of zoom in.
16:17:04 <dael> maRakow: The intention of the second type is less about reflowing the content and more about keeping it consistant.
16:17:16 <dael> maRakow: If it's more of a temp zoom you may just want a piece of content
16:17:33 <dael> maRakow: In this situation we call the area you can see as the visual viewport which is distint from layout viewport
16:17:59 <dael> maRakow: This isn't reflected in spec text. They're talking about inital viewport and that's important to the layout, but there's no text about the visual viewport
16:18:19 <dael> maRakow: One reason it's important is pinched zoom and fixed elements. Fixed is desc as attached to a sing viewport
16:18:33 <dael> maRakow: Do you attach fixed to visual, layout, both?
16:18:35 <antonp> antonp has joined #css
16:18:52 <dael> maRakow: [shows an example on the screen]
16:18:56 <AH_Miller> AH_Miller has joined #CSS
16:19:12 <glazou_> glazou_ has joined #css
16:19:35 <AH_Miller> AH_Miller has joined #CSS
16:19:50 <dael> maRakow: The two top fixed elements are meant to travel with you on the page. Side nav is supposed to align nicely witht he right content. That's a problem where fixed are imune to scrolling, but whent he doc only expects one direction of scroll they align to one side and zoom starts to overlap the content.
16:20:05 <dael> maRakow: When the non-fixed content is zoomed it will overlap
16:20:28 <notbenjamin> notbenjamin has joined #css
16:20:33 <AH_Miller> Michael Miller, Antenna House
16:20:38 <dael> maRakow: [shows and example on Gizmodo] On this page there's a side navagation aligned on the left side.
16:21:10 <dael> maRakow: What we do instead is fix to the layout viewport so it stays when you pinch zoom b/c the layout viewport is stationary.
16:21:22 <dael> maRakow: If you attach instead to visual, the content starts to crossover
16:21:37 <dael> maRakow: There's a couple way you can do this.
16:22:10 <dael> maRakow: Otehr scenarios are bars at the top and bottom, content scrolling on left/right side of content (ie ads) and also full page overlays.
16:22:41 <dael> maRakow: If you pinch zoom and attached to upper left corner, it's hard to pinch zoom in.
16:23:05 <dael> maRakow: A page we use a lot is Atlantis World Fair.
16:23:20 <dael> maRakow: It's an ex of fixed content that expects to align with non-fixed content.
16:23:39 <Mike_Miller> Mike_Miller has joined #CSS
16:23:45 <dael> maRakow: Chrome has been doing a lot of work on this. It's similar to what we're doing, they keep content aligned left/right with fixed and not fixed.
16:23:55 <bkardell_> bkardell_ has joined #css
16:24:21 <dael> maRakow: This is a sort of thing we'd like to see desc in some spec in terms of how the viewports interact, how do the types of zoom interact, and defining the types of zoom.
16:24:50 <dael> maRakow: There's a lot of words that get thrown around. base-zoom, layout-zoon, and base-zoom are used interchangeably for things that change inside initail containing
16:25:26 <dael> maRakow: There's also visual-zoom and pinch-zoom. The ones we favor are base and visual zoom since the terms often don't describe all the ways the zoom can occur.
16:25:55 <dael> maRakow: My thoughts are we need to put through the existing spec and spec what each spec is referring to as well as getting good definitions
16:26:03 <dael> krit: Do you expose any of these as APIs?
16:26:25 <krit> s/krit:/dino:/
16:26:45 <dael> maRakow: In part thats were some of the props for the client with client height are defined, They refer to a viewport. mostly we spec the prop hanging off the doc layout with the client height viewport.
16:26:56 <dael> dino: So the user can know they're pinched in two times?
16:27:04 <dael> maRakow: We have a prop that reveals that.
16:27:15 <dael> maRakow: We've talked about wanting a more explicit API.
16:27:37 <dael> dino: Do you ever expect the user or allow layout to happen as the pinch zoom changes. Someone wants a legend on the map and remain 1 to 1
16:28:15 <dael> maRakow: We don't. We have  a few other things like touch keyboard where when we resize we allow scrolling to the bottom with keyboard up. We have a positioning type where you fix an item to the visual viewport, but that's the only case.
16:28:36 <dael> dbaron: My assumption is every spec is referring to a layout viewport b/c I think most were written before visual viewport existed.
16:29:02 <dael> dbaron: I think...there was  talk about the lack of interop of all this that's interesting. I know of one place there the video is online.
16:29:26 <dael> dbaron: I'm inclined to think that it ought not be nec to go through every ast spec, though it would be nice as we revise for clarity.
16:29:54 <liam> liam has joined #css
16:29:55 <dael> maRakow: I spent some time making a list and for the most part it's swapping a word, but there were places where clarifying text would be helpful. As I finish the list I can send it to the ML
16:30:28 <dael> smfr: When I was talking to rossen he desc the model where when you're panning the layout viewport isn't moving, but when you hit the edge you start scrolling. Can you clarify when the scroll events fire?
16:30:40 <dino_> http://lanyrd.com/profile/ppk/
16:30:53 <dino_> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TF9ID1xwxno
16:31:06 <dino_> Presentation on Mobile Viewports
16:31:16 <dael> maRakow: We do fire scroll events. the model we have to interact two viewports, one req is that if you pinch zoom in, scroll down, inch out and scroll up you should be in the same place, so we need to make sure the viewports travel together. They're a box withing a box.
16:31:18 <astearns> also: http://www.smashingmagazine.com/2014/04/29/meet-mobile-web-handbook-new-smashing-book-peter-paul-koch/
16:31:29 <dael> maRakow: So as you go down you drag both viewports with you.
16:31:37 <bradk> http://www.quirksmode.org/mobile/viewports2.html
16:32:14 <dael> maRakow: So if I pinch zoom in and pan up/down he fixed element is aligned to the fixed element. When you hit the edge of the layout port, that's when you start to drag the other viewport.
16:32:24 <dael> maRakow: All the fixed elements are where you expect
16:32:31 <dael> smfr: And if you zoom and scroll sideways
16:32:48 <dael> maRakow: It'll stay consent here since this page doesn't have hor scroll available, but it should.
16:33:09 <dael> smfr: One issue I have is the pos of fixed opbjects depends on how you got to that state. We don't have that in iOS model.
16:33:18 <dael> maRakow: You mean like state pool?
16:33:19 <Shige> Shige has joined #css
16:33:42 <dael> smfr: You're dragging the layout viewport around. If you came back to that same page, but arriv through diff scrolling action, you could end up in a diff place.
16:33:49 <dael> dbaron: What does iOS model do diff?
16:33:54 <dael> smfr: Can I project?
16:34:10 <nikos_> nikos_ has joined #css
16:35:07 <dael> smfr: This is a page with four fixed elements, bars across the top and bottom.
16:36:19 <dael> smfr: This is zoomed out. When I zoom in we keep fixed things relative to physical viewport so bars at 100% width layout to a narrow witdh. If you follow that model and zoom in enough fixed thigns crowd so we start pushing off screen by interpolating between the two viweports so you scoll around and see the edge of the fixed things.
16:36:25 <nvdbleek> nvdbleek has joined #css
16:36:53 <dael> smfr: That gives weird drifting behaviour, but ameliorates the probelm where things get in your way. The layout of fixed position doesn't have any difference.
16:37:15 <dael> ??: the IOS moble website when you're targeting, it wasn't defined for that.
16:37:23 <dael> krit: Would the elevator model work on yours?
16:37:24 <dael> smfr: No.
16:37:35 <dino> s/??/BenPoulain/
16:38:08 <dael> smfr: One thing I'd like to see is web authors express how fixed should zoom. People layout fixed and leave the left or top auto. I'd like them to be able to express that they always want it at the top but it's okay to move it.
16:38:20 <dael> smfr: I've tried keying it off and it doesn't always work.
16:39:03 <dael> maRakow: We're trying to find compat for desktop. We handle fixed so at any point in pinch zoom you see everything when you scroll. WE tackled keeping content on screen at all times with a new prop which is device-fixed which attaches to visual viewport.
16:39:15 <dael> maRakow: It's opt-in, but it seemed dangerious to do that by default
16:39:26 <dael> smfr: And that gives you diff zooming? Doesn't scalle w/ page?
16:39:39 <dael> maRakow: Correct. If an author uses it they should already think of it.
16:40:04 <dael> florian: Both behaviours make sense. Seems we need an author level way of picking which they want.
16:40:22 <dael> dbaron: Some of this is more about adopting desktop to mobile, not really about content made for smaller.
16:40:44 <dael> ???: Not quite. I have a touch screen, but sometimes I want to zoom. I'm not trying to pidgen hole
16:40:54 <dael> dbaron: Keying off auto seems like the wrong thing to me.
16:41:25 <dael> maRakow: It works well with content aligned with non-fixed content. If you leave the top/left on auto you don't have to do resizing logic, it's always just aligned since it's pos as absolute.
16:41:59 <dael> maRakow: In the gizmodo case, if you have a two column layout and then position the fixed as top/bottom/left/right auto as you resize you don't have to say change te left to make it stayed aligned.
16:42:04 <dael> dbaron: Ast he user resizes?
16:42:07 <dael> maRakow: Corrent.
16:42:46 <dael> maRakow: Just resizing. As the margin is reduced by shrinking the window, this pages will have a resize handler that changes left if they're spec finding left. If it's auto that'll auto be repos alongthe content.
16:42:59 <dael> smfr: Auto changes the fixed element relative to te right place.
16:43:10 <dael> dbaron: Based on the assumption it's scrolled to inital scrolling positiong.
16:43:16 <dael> smfr: I think it's indep.
16:43:25 <dael> dbaron: It matches the original position.
16:43:38 <dael> smfr: It's kinda like using auto, you use it where it is. Anyway, authors do this.
16:44:02 <dael> maRakow: I don't exect a conclusion today, I wanted to socialize the problem. We can con't on the mailing list.
16:44:13 <MaRakow> MaRakow has joined #CSS
16:44:42 <dael> smfr: I'm hesitant to say...to spec the zooming viewport behav in such a way that all UAs need to conform and can't innovate, but I'd like to see ways for authors to express what they want and we can converge on behaviour.
16:45:01 <dael> BenPoulain: And think about when you layout in the port.
16:45:07 <MaRakow> http://gizmodo.com/
16:45:08 <dael> maRakow: I think this is a good start.
16:45:13 <MaRakow> https://www.flickr.com/photos/34654941@N02/8560297430/in/photolist-8MXZUM-2nF5aq-baAvmM-fTMsFJ-e3rLc1-hVcTTe-ncLVr5-egjd34-mJuvoW-dDwovw-4aeSwh-6mC7FC-48nagT-bRgbVB-azj7AV-e1Ci8t-9bLLEJ-69489U-dk6EgQ-bXqvdN/lightbox/
16:45:18 <MaRakow> http://www.lostworldsfairs.com/atlantis/
16:45:33 <dael> glazou: Okay, so, nothing else on this?
16:46:13 <dael> glazou: Thank you very much.
16:46:27 <dael> Topic: Flexbox issues
16:46:46 <vollick> vollick has joined #css
16:47:11 <dael> fantasai: I think we gotbasically 3 issues
16:47:20 <dael> fantasai: One of them, well 4.
16:47:34 <dael> fantasai: one was something TabAtkins and I have to work out and might not be quite ready.
16:47:50 <fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Oct/0489.html
16:47:51 <dael> fantasai: 2nd was alinement diff should depend on if the flexbox wraps, not the # of lines it happens to wrap to.
16:48:25 <dael> fantasai: The spec says that if there is one line of flex content than the align content prop is not used. If there's more than one we use align content to figure out how it fits.
16:48:53 <dael> fantasai: The prop is in a flex container that has wrapping the alignment dep on # of lines, so if my screen is wider than test they'll get unexpected behaviour
16:49:07 <dael> fantasai: This should dep on if the flexbox is wrappable, not on if it has more than one line
16:49:25 <dael> TabAtkins: The spec orig behaved like this and Alex Goblieski(?) requested the change
16:49:41 <TabAtkins> s/Goblieski(?)/Mogilevski/
16:49:54 <dael> fantasai: I think is is more likely to give unexpected behaviour. So say I want to base-align to itself and center in theb ox and you don't get that because it falls on one line.
16:50:16 <dael> fantasai: So I thinkw e should change to just dep on flex wrap prop. People responded it makes sense.
16:50:24 <dael> TabAtkins: He did respond and say it was fine.
16:50:36 <dael> fantasai: Other comments?
16:51:03 <dael> TabAtkins: I think we need a Rossen okay and we're fine.
16:51:04 <glazou_> rrsagent, this meeting spans midnight
16:51:09 <dael> fantasai: How do we dial someone in?
16:51:16 <fantasai> zakim, code
16:51:20 <dael> dbaron: They call Zakim and Zakim calls this number.
16:51:26 <dbaron> Zakim, code?
16:51:31 <plinss> zakim, room for 3?
16:51:34 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #css
16:51:42 <dbaron> Zakim, code?
16:51:42 <Zakim> sorry, dbaron, I don't know what conference this is
16:51:44 <plinss> zakim, room for 3?
16:51:45 <Zakim> ok, plinss; conference Team_(css)16:51Z scheduled with code 26634 (CONF4) for 60 minutes until 1751Z
16:51:54 <plinss> zakim, call SantaBarbara
16:51:54 <Zakim> ok, plinss; the call is being made
16:51:55 <Zakim> Team_(css)16:51Z has now started
16:51:57 <Zakim> +SantaBarbara
16:52:35 <plinss> plinss has changed the topic to: https://wiki.csswg.org/planning/tpac-2014#agenda - Zakim code 26634#
16:53:24 <dael> plinss: So we're waiting for a call?
16:53:28 <jcraig> jcraig has joined #css
16:53:29 <dael> fantasai: He says he'll call in a minute.
16:54:08 <Zakim> +[Mozilla]
16:54:45 <dbaron> Zakim, [Mozilla] is dholbert
16:54:45 <Zakim> +dholbert; got it
16:54:48 <dael> TabAtkins: Did elika give you context?
16:54:53 <dael> dholbert: I was folling in IRC.
16:54:56 <fantasai> s/elika/fantasai/g
16:55:08 <glazou_> s/folling/following
16:55:11 <dael> TabAtkins: Comments? Yea/Nay?
16:55:26 <dael> dholbert: Yes. The align content change makes sense to me.
16:55:36 <dael> fantasai: There's one more issue Roseen was going to talk about.
16:55:39 <jrossi> jrossi has joined #css
16:55:40 <dael> TabAtkins: He's not here.
16:55:47 <shans__> s/Roseen/Rossen/
16:55:58 <dael> fantasai: Okay. In that case maybe we can ask dholbert to call back when he's here.
16:56:00 <Zakim> -dholbert
16:56:04 <dael> dholbert: Bye, talk to you soon.
16:56:17 <dael> dbaron: If there were enough to justify it dholbert could drive here.
16:56:44 <dael> fantasai: I thinkw e have 3 issues total, so I think TabAtkins and I should work on one over th break, but I don't think it's a WG issue. I think we'll all get confused.
16:56:53 <Zakim> -SantaBarbara
16:56:53 <dael> fantasai: That's all for now, we can come back with rossen.
16:56:54 <Zakim> Team_(css)16:51Z has ended
16:56:54 <Zakim> Attendees were SantaBarbara, dholbert
16:57:07 <jet> jet has joined #css
16:57:11 <dael> glazou_: I suggest a 15 minute coffee break and that will allow rossen to arrive.
16:57:24 <dael> [Break]
16:57:31 <bradk> bradk has joined #css
16:57:52 <liam> liam has joined #css
17:01:59 <tantek> tantek has joined #css
17:08:26 <nikos_> nikos_ has left #css
17:12:05 <bobtung> bobtung has joined #css
17:12:17 <Shige> Shige has joined #css
17:19:27 <dauwhe> dauwhe has joined #css
17:19:30 <bradk> bradk has joined #css
17:21:03 <bradk_> bradk_ has joined #css
17:22:45 <dael> glazou_: Let's restart
17:22:47 <florian> florian has joined #css
17:23:17 <dael> glazou_: Since everyone is in the room and we have rossen, let's do flexbox
17:23:20 <nsakai2> nsakai2 has joined #css
17:23:36 <iank> iank has joined #css
17:23:39 <dael> fantasai: He's waiting on feedback, so we only have one issue. The total DoC will be 3 comments and we'll have to go through the last one, maybe later.
17:23:58 <dael> rossen: If we get news, they should have had numbers by now. If I get it we'll maybe take 15 minutes.
17:24:07 <shans__> shans__ has joined #css
17:24:11 <dael> glazou_: So I suggest taking things from the afternoon.
17:24:29 <dael> glazou_: Can we do ::role()?
17:24:31 <Rossen_> Rossen_ has joined #css
17:24:45 <dael> Topic: ::role()
17:24:55 <song> song has joined #CSS
17:24:57 <dael> TabAtkins: jcraig suggested a ::role pseduo
17:25:06 <TabAtkins> s/::role/:role/
17:25:25 <dael> hober: There's a few problem. One is the impl RA roles on the elements. When you have multi roles on one element, you get all of them.
17:25:42 <dael> hober: For styling you may want to style that as a switch or a checkbox. Right now that's difficult in CSS.
17:25:56 <dael> hober: THere's also the case of wanting to simply style all the buttons on the page
17:26:08 <dael> hober: You want to be able to say :role() and be done.
17:26:16 <dael> TabAtkins: That's convincing. Is there anything outside that?
17:26:20 <nvdbleek> nvdbleek has joined #css
17:26:23 <dael> hober: WE can always add more.
17:26:40 <jrossi> jrossi has joined #css
17:26:43 <dael> glazou_: You mentioned implied role. So some won't need an assigned role. WE'll need to refer to HTML.
17:26:53 <dael> hober: In CSS we say the host language has that.
17:27:00 <dael> dbaron: It's :: or :
17:27:11 <dael> TabAtkins: It's a functional class. It should be an ident.
17:27:21 <dael> glazou_: Can you have multi roles?
17:27:29 <dael> hober: Syntatically you can.
17:27:43 <dbaron> hober: but only one is active
17:27:44 <dael> glazou_: So if you have multi roles on one ident it's whitespace broken?
17:27:59 <dael> dino: So if you do colen role
17:28:12 <dael> hober: You can do :role button and :role super button. Or we seperate in the list itself.
17:28:22 <dael> glazou_: So the role attr is multi but the role pseudo is only one?
17:28:26 <smfr> s/colen/colon/
17:28:27 <jcraig> jcraig has joined #css
17:28:27 <dael> hober: Yeah.
17:28:56 <dael> dauwhe: dpub is working on adding things for role attr.
17:29:01 <dael> TabAtkins: Do you know if it will be consistent with this?
17:29:09 <dael> dauwhe: They haven't said. I'll raise that with them.
17:29:28 <dael> TabAtkins: So I guess that's simple. obj to adding :role() to selectors?
17:29:51 <dael> TabAtkins: So :role(button) would target anything thatha s a button accoring to aria rules.
17:30:03 <dael> hober: It wouldn't match button role = checkbox or something crazy
17:30:20 <dael> dbaron: So people are okay with agreeing CSS won't do future things to influence what the aria role is.
17:30:29 <dael> hober: It should be defined by pointing overthere.
17:30:57 <dael> fantasai: We need to have another language that has CSS language. OUr stuff should be about styling.
17:31:12 <dael> TabAtkins: If someone would like to impl cascading attr selectors in a browser *shrug*
17:31:22 <dael> dbaron: Having CSS do this side makes sense, but we can't do both.
17:31:33 <dael> hober: Should we have a note in the spec saying "you may be confused"
17:31:44 <dael> glazou_: When we had selectors we didn't have a note. I'm not sure we need a note.
17:31:46 <dael> hober: Okay.
17:31:53 <dael> glazou_: So not obj
17:31:54 <fantasai> fantasai^: People keep asking us to put things in CSS that belong in the DOM, because they want to use CSS selectors and cascading to attach it to the tree.
17:31:59 <dael> RESOLVED: add :role() to selectors
17:32:05 <dael> glazou_: who is going prose?
17:32:08 <dael> TabAtkins: I will.
17:32:24 <dael> Topic: Status of selectors 4
17:32:50 <dael> dbaron: I stuck this on the agenda because I want to get to some things. At some point we should stop adding features and advance it
17:33:17 <dael> fantasai: I think I want to trim it to the thigns that will go to CR when I have time. Make a cut and put everything else in level 5. That was my goal last year, so I don't know if it will happen.
17:33:17 <vollick> vollick has joined #css
17:33:30 <dael> fantasai: I would be happy to take a resolution that :dir should be unprefixed.
17:33:45 <dael> glazou_: So to do that, does the WG think it's stable enough ot do it and 2nd are all impl okay?
17:33:53 <dael> glazou_: So object to it being stable?
17:34:12 <dael> fantasai: :dir and :lang are quite stable, the syntax is obvious, they fall in the level 3 template.
17:34:23 <dael> SimonSapin: Do you think the complex lang matching is ready?
17:34:34 <dael> fantasai: We're just point ing to it. I think Microsoft impl that.
17:34:51 <dael> glazou_: There were bugs in browser impl about :lang where one rendering language wasn't parsing more than one dash.
17:35:03 <dael> glazou_: It was a bit back. Make sure it was fixed.
17:35:20 <dael> glazou_: 2nd question, impl you okay with unprefixed :dir?
17:35:53 <dael> RESOLVED: unprefix :dir and :lang
17:36:14 <dael> florian: Do we have a test suite?
17:36:21 <dael> fantasai: I think Micrsoft does.
17:36:33 <dael> florian: It would be good to share so people who were prefixed get it right.
17:36:33 <ArronEi> There are very few test cases
17:36:35 <fantasai> s/Micrsoft/Mozilla/
17:36:50 <bradk_> :dur? collender?
17:36:51 <dael> glazou_: Anything else on Selectors 4?  Test suite? Very few cases, can we have more?
17:37:08 <dael> fantasai: Mozilla impl so I'm sure they have a bunch of test cases. I'm not sure where.
17:37:10 <ArronEi> I will put the selectors 4 on my list
17:37:23 <ArronEi> ... for more cases
17:37:41 <dael> dino: Has there ever been a prop for an OM API to be able to set a pseudo class on something? Like if you want to set the initial-letter on a div.
17:37:54 <dael> TabAtkins: That's a pseudo element.
17:38:18 <dael> glazou_: So ArronEi suggested an API a way to create programmatically two elements. I'm not sure it got consensus, but I think it should happen.
17:38:35 <astearns> s/ArronEi/astearns/
17:38:41 <adenilson_> adenilson_ has joined #css
17:38:51 <glazou> s/astearns/astearns and I/
17:38:55 <TabAtkins> s/two /pseudo-/
17:39:21 <dael> florian:  On this topic it doesn't look like the test stask from Opera will help. I went through the repo and they're barely there.
17:39:35 <dael> glazou: It would be good to have more tests. Anything else on Selectors 4 dbaron ?
17:39:55 <dael> dbaron: That's it. We have a bunch of JS scripts that would need to be rewritten, but they're straightforward.
17:39:56 <florian> s/stack/stash/
17:40:16 <dael> Topic: Rossen_ 's extra item
17:40:37 <dael> Rossen_: fantasai and I spent time cleaning up. We think we figured out the outstanding issues and cleaning up the lang.
17:40:46 <dael> fantasai: There's one issue open, let me pull it up.
17:40:49 <dael> dbaron: What's the next level?
17:41:01 <dael> fantasai: I think we need to repub WD, ask for review, go to CR
17:41:31 <dael> fantasai: WE say that if you have something you can't fragment, for ex some inline blocks, there's no line break opp possble within a line box