15:51:25 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #webapps
15:51:25 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/10/27-webapps-irc
15:51:27 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
15:51:29 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be DOM3
15:51:29 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
15:51:30 <trackbot> Meeting: Web Applications Working Group Teleconference
15:51:30 <trackbot> Date: 27 October 2014
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15:53:17 <ArtB> zakim, this will be RWC_WAPI
15:53:17 <Zakim> ok, ArtB; I see RWC_WAPI()12:00PM scheduled to start in 7 minutes
15:53:23 <colin> colin has joined #webapps
15:53:56 <ArtB> Chair: Art, Charles
15:54:05 <Zakim> RWC_WAPI()12:00PM has now started
15:54:12 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:54:22 <Zakim> + +1.650.318.aaaa
15:55:03 <ArtB> Present: Art_Barstow, Yves_Lafon, Charles_Neville
15:55:22 <Zakim> - +1.650.318.aaaa
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16:04:12 <darobin> Present+ Robin_Berjon
16:04:16 <Yves> Present+ Yves_Lafon
16:04:20 <jungkees> Present+ Jungkee_Song
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16:04:21 <adrianba> Present+ Adrian_Bateman
16:04:23 <rniwa> Present+ Ryosuke_Niwa
16:04:28 <xiaoqian> Present+ Xiaoqian_wu
16:04:28 <Claes> Claes has joined #webapps
16:04:31 <benjamp> Present+ Ben Peters
16:04:33 <schuki> Present+ Natasha_Rooney
16:04:36 <marcosc> Present+ Marcos_Caceres
16:04:37 <Travis> Travis has joined #webapps
16:04:40 <rubys> present+ Sam_Ruby
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16:04:43 <jhund> Present+ Johannes Hund
16:04:43 <wooglae> Present+ Wooglae_Kim
16:04:44 <spoussa> spoussa has joined #webapps
16:04:44 <jungkees> Present+ Kenneth_Christiansen
16:04:50 <paulliu> paulliu has joined #webapps
16:04:50 <plh> Present+ plh
16:04:51 <israelh> israelh has joined #webapps
16:04:57 <Travis> Present+ Travis_Leithead
16:04:58 <jhund> Present+ Johannes_Hund
16:04:59 <alia> Present+ Ali_Alabbas
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16:05:12 <israelh> Present+ Israel_Hilerio
16:05:12 <ArtB> ScribeNick: ArtB
16:05:14 <ArtB> Scribe: Art
16:05:14 <spoussa> Present+ Sakari_Poussa
16:05:21 <lgombos> present+ Laszlo_Gombos
16:05:22 <ArtB> CN: starting Introductin
16:05:36 <a12u> Present+ Hiroyuki_Aizu
16:05:49 <ArtB> Topic: Introductions
16:05:55 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
16:05:56 <Zakim> RWC_WAPI()12:00PM has ended
16:05:56 <Zakim> Attendees were [IPcaller], +1.650.318.aaaa
16:06:04 <Zakim> RWC_WAPI()12:00PM has now started
16:06:11 <Zakim> + +1.650.318.aaaa
16:06:14 <fjh> fjh has joined #webapps
16:06:15 <ArtB> CN: everyone, please Present+ themselves as: Firstname_LastName
16:06:31 <ArtB> Agenda: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Webapps/November2014Meeting
16:06:34 <myakura> Present+ Masataka_Yakura
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16:07:04 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
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16:08:36 <ArtB> CN: before you speak, please say your name
16:08:42 <MikeSmith> Present+ Michael[tm]Smith
16:08:47 <cyns> cyns has joined #webapps
16:08:53 <ArtB> zakim, who's here?
16:08:53 <Zakim> On the phone I see +1.650.318.aaaa, [IPcaller]
16:08:55 <Zakim> On IRC I see cyns, brianraymor, bryan_, waynecarr, LJWatson_, forty4, smaug, fjh, makotom, LJWatson, israelh, paulliu, spoussa, alia, plh, Travis, Claes, myakura, jhund, chaa13,
16:08:55 <Zakim> ... benjamp, aaa, glenn, wooglae, a12u, darobin, rniwa, jungkees, nsakai2_, RRSAgent, Zakim, adrianba, ArtB, marcosc, Zefa, chaals, rubys, lgombos, Hiroto_, marcosc_, kochi1,
16:08:59 <Zakim> ... kochi, tyoshino, igrigorik, stryx`_, stryx`, MikeSmith, botie, hober, paul___irish, slightlyoff, tobie, astearns, cwilso, timeless, scheib, hayato_, krit, cabanier, jsbell,
16:08:59 <Zakim> ... mkwst___
16:09:05 <bryan_> present+ Bryan_Sullivan
16:09:06 <cyns> present cynthia_shelly
16:09:13 <MikeSmith> Zakim, call Portland
16:09:13 <Zakim> ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made
16:09:14 <Zakim> +Portland
16:09:14 <cyns> present+ cynthia_shelly
16:09:14 <ArtB> zakim, call Portland
16:09:14 <Zakim> ok, ArtB; the call is being made
16:09:15 <Zakim> +Portland.a
16:09:18 <Zakim> -Portland.a
16:09:33 <MikeSmith> Zakim, call Portland
16:09:33 <Zakim> ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made
16:09:34 <Zakim> +Portland.a
16:09:37 <ArtB> zakime, who's here?
16:09:37 <Zakim> -Portland.a
16:09:52 <tyoshino> i can hear someone speaking
16:09:56 <MikeSmith> Zakim, call Seattle
16:09:56 <Zakim> ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made
16:09:58 <Zakim> +Seattle
16:10:08 <MikeSmith> Zakim, drop Seattle
16:10:08 <Zakim> Seattle is being disconnected
16:10:10 <Zakim> -Seattle
16:10:22 <forty4> present+ Dowan_Kim
16:10:28 <tyoshino> talking about agenda, yes
16:10:34 <sam> sam has joined #webapps
16:11:00 <MikeSmith> q?
16:11:04 <ArtB> CN: agenda requests
16:11:06 <MikeSmith> q+ to comment
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16:11:20 <ArtB> CS: I have a proposal I'd like to talk about when IndieUI folks are here
16:11:32 <MikeSmith> Zakim, call Portland
16:11:32 <Zakim> ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made
16:11:35 <Zakim> +Portland.a
16:11:36 <Zakim> -Portland.a
16:11:56 <ArtB> AB: we can allocate time tomorrow Cindy
16:11:58 <ArtB> CS: ok
16:12:06 <ArtB> CN: any other topics
16:12:17 <ArtB> MS: URL spec
16:12:24 <ShijunS> ShijunS has joined #webapps
16:12:26 <ArtB> … want to have Larry Manister
16:12:57 <ArtB> SR: what about Dan?
16:13:11 <ArtB> AB: please tell Larry and Dan to be here at 10:00
16:13:36 <ArtB> PLH: TAG says 10:00 will not work for them today
16:14:07 <ArtB> CN: PLH, please figure out a good time for Tuesday
16:14:13 <fjh_> fjh_ has joined #webapps
16:14:44 <ArtB> MS: are we having a SysApps joint meeting?
16:15:00 <ArtB> MC: Mounir will be here after lunch
16:15:13 <ArtB> … should wait for him
16:15:28 <ArtB> JS: tomorrow Wonsuk will be here
16:15:57 <ArtB> ACTION: Marcos work with SysApps to find an agenda slot for Tuesday
16:15:57 <trackbot> Error finding 'Marcos'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/users>.
16:16:04 <ArtB> Topic: Spec Roll call
16:16:36 <Travis> scribe: Travis
16:16:52 <Travis> Topic: Rundown of pubstatus
16:16:58 <Travis> Clipboard events
16:17:09 <Travis> ... hallvord has a few issues he wanted to deal with
16:17:10 <kawai> kawai has joined #webapps
16:17:27 <Travis> ... "strip dangerous content for paste"
16:17:38 <Travis> ... would be useful for email (to have a standard way to do this)
16:18:12 <Travis> ... allow beforepaste event; are there privacy concerns?
16:18:27 <Travis> ... chaals thinks 'no'
16:18:50 <Travis> ... This spec goes back a while... is this converging to an LC?
16:18:59 <Travis> ... anyone interested in committing to this?
16:19:38 <Travis> rniwa: clarify the question?
16:19:52 <Travis>  (no volunteers to help in the room)
16:20:45 <Travis> marcosc_: Not sure on mozilla stance... wondering if others are planning to implement?
16:20:50 <Travis> ... is Apple?
16:21:05 <Travis> benjamp: Microsoft is.
16:21:31 <stone> stone has joined #webapps
16:21:37 <Travis> rniwa: Apple is paying "close attention"
16:21:57 <Travis> DOM Level 3 Event
16:22:08 <ArtB> ScribeNick: ArtB
16:22:14 <darobin> Travis: for this we published an updated WD in September
16:22:20 <ArtB> TL: we published new D3E spec last month
16:22:27 <darobin> ... it is our intention to keep pushing this spec to the end of its day
16:22:33 <ArtB> ScribeNick: darobin
16:22:41 <darobin> ... we've tried to harmonise with DOM4, notably for events (definition, dispatch)
16:22:51 <darobin> ... we have a number of additional significant bugs to tackle
16:23:03 <darobin> ... notably defining the order of dispatch of events in relation to the task queue model
16:23:10 <darobin> ... a few more clarifications and a whole lot of cleanup
16:23:20 <darobin> ... it's looking, rough estimate, 6 months to another LC
16:23:39 <darobin> marcosc: it wasn't clear to me last I looked at HTML, if it defines task queues
16:23:52 <Claes> Present+ Claes_Nilsson
16:23:53 <darobin> Travis: you can select from the queue you want
16:24:03 <plinss> plinss has joined #webapps
16:24:04 <darobin> ... if you put them in the same queue
16:24:21 <darobin> chaa13: and this is like a legacy spec, right?
16:24:35 <shepazu> shepazu has joined #webapps
16:24:37 <darobin> Travis: to a large extent, as we update it we are applying new spec patterns but it's arduous
16:24:41 <darobin> marcosc: UI Events?
16:24:59 <ArtB> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/d4e/raw-file/tip/source_respec.htm -> UI Events ED
16:24:59 <darobin> Travis: it was the future of D3Ev, but as we continue to polish this one, we realised we needed to do some of those things now
16:25:06 <forty41> forty41 has joined #webapps
16:25:06 <darobin> ... this is also part of the delay
16:25:19 <Zakim> +[IPcaller.a]
16:25:23 <darobin> marcosc: my confusion is that I keep finding the UI events and getting confused
16:25:27 <darobin> plh: should we deprecate it?
16:25:35 <smaug> Zakim, [IPcaller.a] is Olli_Pettay
16:25:35 <Zakim> +Olli_Pettay; got it
16:25:36 <darobin> Travis: that sounds good to me, it has very little if anything
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16:25:50 <smaug> Zakim, nick smaug is Olli_Pettay
16:25:50 <Zakim> ok, smaug, I now associate you with Olli_Pettay
16:25:55 <darobin> chaa13: publish as empty Note, point to D3Ev
16:26:06 <darobin> Travis: when D3Ev is done, where do the new events go?
16:26:16 <darobin> marcosc: we can restart this
16:26:26 <ArtB> ACTION: barstow start CfC to publish UI Events as a "gutted" WG Note
16:26:26 <trackbot> Created ACTION-734 - Start cfc to publish ui events as a "gutted" wg note [on Arthur Barstow - due 2014-11-03].
16:26:47 <darobin> RESOLUTION: deprecate UI Events as a deliverable and publish a gutted Note for it
16:27:02 <darobin> ArtB: anything about the key specs
16:27:12 <MikeSmith> Zakim, who's on the phone?
16:27:12 <Zakim> On the phone I see +1.650.318.aaaa, [IPcaller], Portland, Olli_Pettay
16:27:16 <darobin> Travis: they go with D3E, should go to Rec at the same time?
16:27:35 <darobin> ArtB: pubstatus says D3E still has tests in Mercurial, still the case?
16:27:42 <MikeSmith> smaug, can you hear us on the phone?
16:28:06 <smaug> yes
16:28:07 <darobin> ACTION: Travis to check that the D3E tests are in GH or Mercurial, and if needed fix
16:28:07 <trackbot> Created ACTION-735 - Check that the d3e tests are in gh or mercurial, and if needed fix [on Travis Leithead - due 2014-11-03].
16:28:14 <smaug> MikeSmith: surprisingly well
16:28:17 <darobin> ArtB: is Alex still available to work as a test facilitator
16:28:27 <darobin> Travis: I don't believe he is, we should find a new facilitator
16:28:36 <smaug> MikeSmith: but I'm just listening in the background while doing other stuff
16:28:50 <MikeSmith> smaug, OK greatーthanks
16:28:59 <ArtB> ACTION: barstow work with Adrian to find a replacement TC for Alex and D3E
16:29:00 <trackbot> Created ACTION-736 - Work with adrian to find a replacement tc for alex and d3e [on Arthur Barstow - due 2014-11-03].
16:29:09 <darobin> Travis: Gary is interested in testing the spec further
16:29:13 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent,
16:29:13 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand '', MikeSmith.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
16:29:18 <darobin> Travis: DOM-PS
16:29:19 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
16:29:19 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/27-webapps-minutes.html MikeSmith
16:29:43 <darobin> ArtB: that was listed in potential topics, possible CR
16:29:54 <darobin> Travis: I don't know that we have much that's controversial
16:30:02 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make logs public
16:30:04 <darobin> ... should we have a breakout
16:30:10 <ArtB> https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/tree/master/html/syntax -> DOM P&S tests
16:30:11 <darobin> Robin: are there bugs?
16:30:22 <darobin> Travis: status is we have a CR, in June, contingent on TS
16:30:23 <Hyunjin> Hyunjin has joined #webapps
16:30:29 <darobin> ... the TS has yet to coalesce
16:30:31 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
16:30:31 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/27-webapps-minutes.html MikeSmith
16:30:34 <darobin> chaa13: so we need tests
16:30:35 <ArtB> https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/labels/dom-parsing -> DOM P&S test open issues
16:30:50 <darobin> Travis: Ms2ger had tests, some need porting, new ones are needed
16:31:05 <darobin> ArtB: no test coordinator
16:31:19 <darobin> Travis: I'm happy to be a facilitator
16:31:32 <darobin> plh: what could help is if you can at some point write down the list of needed test
16:31:36 <darobin> ... that helps people pick things up
16:31:48 <darobin> cindy: I'm happy to help, but I'll need your help to step in
16:31:55 <darobin> Travis: that would help!
16:32:05 <Hyunjin_> Hyunjin_ has joined #webapps
16:32:17 <darobin> rniwa: do you have any sense on how consistent browsers are?
16:32:29 <tantek> tantek has joined #webapps
16:32:32 <darobin> Travis: the spec largely follows an implementation that is pretty close to Gecoj
16:32:43 <darobin> ... Chrome had serious issues serialising namespaced attributes
16:32:47 <darobin> ... but they indicated progress
16:32:51 <smaug> s/Gecoj/Gecko/
16:32:56 <darobin> ... otherwise the basics are widely implemented
16:33:16 <darobin> ... we'll see how bad that is with testing
16:33:26 <darobin> darobin: are you going to do anything with innerText?
16:33:43 <darobin> Travis: there was opposition because it depends on rendering, but some thought it might be doable
16:33:59 <Domenic> someone speccing innerText would be amaaaazing
16:34:03 <darobin> ... happy to include it if there's consensus, but otherwise would leave it alone
16:34:08 <darobin> ... maybe a new spec?
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16:34:23 <darobin> rniwa: Selection API also depends on innerText, it would be valuable to have a spec for that
16:34:38 <darobin> ... it's a lot of work, because it's hard, don't want to block DOM-PS
16:34:57 <gludi_> gludi_ has joined #webapps
16:35:14 <Domenic> for the record, previous attempts (with tests apparently) at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-whatwg-archive/2011Feb/0025.html; use archive.org to follow the dead links.
16:35:16 <darobin> Travis: heard a recommendation to start a new spec as part of the editing TF, we should pursue that, it's a good idea
16:35:36 <darobin> chaa13: any takers?
16:35:42 <kurosawa> kurosawa has joined #webapps
16:36:04 <darobin> Travis: if no volunteers, I can be the default
16:36:30 <fjh> fjh has joined #webapps
16:36:42 <darobin> ben: how does it relate to textContent?
16:37:03 <darobin> Travis: they both serialise text...
16:37:40 <darobin> ... innerText serialises "what you see on screen" text, textContent is pure object model
16:37:49 <darobin> ... let's get a new component in the bug DB for that
16:37:58 <darobin> scribenick: Travis
16:38:01 <ArtB> ACTION: barstow create a new bugzilla component for Inner Text
16:38:04 <trackbot> Created ACTION-737 - Create a new bugzilla component for inner text [on Arthur Barstow - due 2014-11-03].
16:38:14 <Travis> chaals: Moving on to FileAPI
16:38:22 <Travis> ... oh, on the agenda already... skipping
16:38:30 <Travis> ... FullScreen
16:38:40 <Travis> ... calling tantek
16:39:21 <ArtB> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2014OctDec/0213.html -> Tantek's proposal re Fullscreen API
16:39:22 <Travis> ... chaals says tantek says let the WHATWG do it. Anyone interested in publishing in W3C
16:39:49 <Travis> ... if no one moves it forward, it will likely be parked as a Note.
16:40:15 <Travis> ArtB: In our charter, we don't make binding decisions in f2f meetings. We can take a poll here...
16:40:32 <Travis> ... any objecting to parking fullscreen?
16:40:48 <Travis> ... (no objections noted)
16:40:52 <ArtB> ACTION: barstow start a CfC to publish a "gutted" WG Note of the Fullscreen API
16:40:55 <trackbot> Created ACTION-738 - Start a cfc to publish a "gutted" wg note of the fullscreen api [on Arthur Barstow - due 2014-11-03].
16:41:12 <Travis> marcosc: can we redirect the parked specs to the active specs.
16:41:28 <Travis> plh: If the spec is going to be parked, we need to update the TR
16:41:43 <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:41:43 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/27-webapps-minutes.html timeless
16:41:49 <Travis> chaals: Status information is important, the redirect will be noted in the doc.
16:42:00 <Travis> marcosc: can we tell Google not to index it?
16:42:06 <gludi|3> gludi|3 has joined #webapps
16:42:41 <Travis> chaals: Gamepad.
16:42:59 <Travis> ... is anyone following? I see discussion going on...
16:43:26 <Travis> ... OK.
16:43:35 <Travis> IndexedDB
16:44:39 <Travis> sicking: I'm not sure what's blocking; implementation seem interoperable
16:44:48 <smaug> Fixing https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/issues/1304 would give quite some more green in IDB tests
16:45:01 <Travis> ArtB: looking at the implementation report...
16:45:15 <myakura> http://w3c.github.io/test-results/IndexedDB/less-than-2.html
16:45:25 <ArtB> http://www.w3c-test.org/IndexedDB/interfaces.html -> IDB interfaces Web IDL
16:45:26 <Travis> darobin: Note the "interfaces.html" (WebIDL interfaces)
16:45:43 <Travis> ... Those are WebIDL related problems, not necessarily IndexedDB...
16:45:53 <Travis> ... if you opt those out, there aren't that many failures.
16:46:35 <Travis> plh: for WebIDL we should ignore non-basic bindings...
16:46:45 <Travis> marcosc: strongly object. We should fix the IDL...
16:47:06 <smaug> IDB webidl tests are buggy
16:47:09 <Travis> sicking: why do we keep blocking IndexedDB on WebIDL failures
16:47:14 <smaug> not implementations
16:47:19 <Travis> plh: truth is no one implements WebIDL correctly yet.
16:47:19 <smaug> in this case
16:47:43 <Travis> ... implementations have been trying to get WebIDL bindings correctly.
16:47:55 <Travis> marcosc: if it affects authors, it's bad, otherwise OK.
16:49:02 <Travis> chaals: If these failures are 'theoretical purity' issues, then we should just move on and fix those later.
16:49:42 <Travis> joshua: should we followup with a review of the failures just to make sure?
16:50:07 <Travis> chaals: If it doesn't cause real-world issues for users, then that's the use case.
16:50:45 <Travis> ArtB: Straw poll: any objections based on result.
16:51:13 <Travis> sicking: I'm not convinced (we were looking at the 'less-than-2' results...
16:51:43 <Travis> plh: 37 tests failing out of 595.
16:52:02 <Travis> ... if you factor out WebIDL tests it's even better.
16:52:30 <ArtB> ACTION: barstow start a CfC to publish a Proposed Recommendation of IDB
16:52:33 <trackbot> Created ACTION-739 - Start a cfc to publish a proposed recommendation of idb [on Arthur Barstow - due 2014-11-03].
16:52:37 <Travis> chaals: Lots of support for moving it forward. Let's ship it!
16:53:05 <Travis> ArtB: Anything else regarding IDB v2?
16:53:09 <kbx> kbx has joined #webapps
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16:53:38 <Travis> joshua: Just focusing on service worker (SW), digesting feedback around using Promises. No progress to report.
16:53:40 <DaveWalp> Present+ David Walp
16:54:00 <Travis> chaals: IME
16:55:54 <Guest> Guest has joined #webapps
16:56:23 <xiaoqian> Travis: MS is considering to implement IME API @@...spec is relatively stable.
16:56:24 <Travis> MikeSmith: Looking for another test facilitator... please?
16:56:37 <Travis> ... any other implementation interest?
16:56:42 <chaals> q?
16:57:31 <Travis> hober: Goal to support script avoiding IME seems reasonable
16:57:42 <Travis> ... I worry assumptions are based on current IMEs
16:57:47 <Travis> ... not sure what the future holds.
16:57:59 <Travis> ... scope is reduced; think it looks better than before.
16:58:29 <Travis> rniwa: Apple is interested in improving editing; it important to look at how IME API fits into the overall system.
16:58:43 <Travis> ... we don't want to be introducing lots of ways to do the same thing.
16:58:59 <jcraig> jcraig has joined #webapps
16:59:22 <Travis> chaals: We definiately don't want to introduce conflicts.
16:59:24 <ArtB> ACTION: barstow issue a Call for Test Facilitator for IME spec
16:59:30 <trackbot> Created ACTION-740 - Issue a call for test facilitator for ime spec [on Arthur Barstow - due 2014-11-03].
16:59:34 <Travis> MikeSmith: Jonas/Marcos, any help?
16:59:45 <Travis> sicking: I know what it is; don't know any plans.
17:00:03 <Travis> chaals: Yandex has an interest; we build IMEs; but don't have anyone to offer.
17:00:20 <Travis> ishida: to what extent is this JP vs JP & CN?
17:00:38 <sicking> sicking has joined #webapps
17:00:47 <Travis> MikeSmith: Not to go too deep--but main use case is to avoid IME overlaps with web-based suggestions.
17:01:10 <Travis> ... biggest problem is occlusion/overlap; that's the primary scenario driving the spec.
17:01:34 <Travis> ishida: main users will be JP/CN. Anyone from those communities interested in moving this forward?
17:01:51 <Travis> chaals: Status: it's moving forward slowly
17:02:23 <Travis> rniwa: We should try to get someone from KO/CN/JP interest groups to help (vs. folks who've never used them before)
17:02:50 <ArtB> ACTION: charles ask cjk interest group and others about IME (use cases, tests, etc.)
17:02:55 <trackbot> Created ACTION-741 - Ask cjk interest group and others about ime (use cases, tests, etc.) [on Charles McCathie Nevile - due 2014-11-03].
17:03:12 <hiroki> hiroki has joined #webapps
17:03:14 <Travis> cindy: tencent/baidu can help (from China)
17:03:34 <Jinwang_Qi> Jinwang_Qi has joined #webapps
17:03:36 <Travis> chaals: OK. Moving to PointerLock
17:03:43 <JonathanJ1> JonathanJ1 has joined #webapps
17:03:48 <Travis> ArtB: No status report from Vincent Scheib
17:04:00 <Travis> ... there is a link to test suite, but only has WebIDL templates...
17:04:01 <jrossi> jrossi has joined #webapps
17:04:10 <JonathanJ1> Present+ Jonathan_Jeon
17:04:14 <Travis> chaals: Anyone know anything more on status.
17:04:36 <Travis> chaals: Quota Management?
17:04:46 <hober> Present+ hober
17:04:56 <Travis> ArtB: Kinuko sent mail
17:05:04 <sicking_> sicking_ has joined #webapps
17:05:09 <Travis> ... status is "not very active". Anyone interested in helping push this forward?
17:05:29 <Travis> ... not hearing anything.
17:05:41 <Travis> chaals: Screen Orientation - on the agenda for tomorrow.
17:05:48 <Travis> ... so is Selection API
17:06:00 <Travis> ... Server-Sent Events
17:06:53 <Travis> ArtB: At one point, it looked like we were close to finishing, but with new tests, we seem to have more failures.
17:07:13 <Travis> ... rate looks like 13/124 failures.
17:07:25 <Travis> darobin: Looks like there are some major timeout failures.
17:07:52 <Travis> ... timeout could be a test failure, but we don't know for sure.
17:08:12 <sam2> sam2 has joined #webapps
17:08:34 <Travis> ... I'm also interested in taking feedback on the implementation report--send me bugs.
17:08:35 <ArtB> ACTION: barstow re SSE test results, followup on the Timeouts with the 2 test facilitators
17:08:38 <trackbot> Created ACTION-742 - Re sse test results, followup on the timeouts with the 2 test facilitators [on Arthur Barstow - due 2014-11-03].
17:09:08 <Travis> chaals: Service Workers
17:09:23 <Travis> chaals: Streams API on the agenda already
17:09:31 <Travis> ... URL
17:09:31 <Travis> ArtB: Yes, this is on the agenda, combined with Push API
17:09:34 <Travis> ... is on the agenda
17:09:48 <Travis> ... WebIDL
17:10:31 <sam2> quit
17:10:31 <Travis> Yves: Had one bug to fix on integrating the test suite...
17:10:32 <Zakim> + +1.650.318.aabb
17:10:44 <Travis> MikeSmith: Boris/Cameron not working on this (don't have time)
17:10:45 <Zakim> - +1.650.318.aaaa
17:10:51 <Travis> ... we want to move this ahead.
17:11:01 <ArtB> ACTION: yves, follow with Cameron re PR 271 and the Web IDL test suite
17:11:03 <trackbot> Error finding 'yves,'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/users>.
17:11:06 <Travis> Yves: With no reply, I will probably do this myself.
17:11:24 <Travis> marcosc: we need a better plan. Cameron is not moving it forward; who can do that.
17:11:41 <Travis> sicking: Cameron _is_ moving it forward, just not as fast as we want.
17:11:52 <JonathanJ1> rrsagent, draft minutes
17:11:52 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/27-webapps-minutes.html JonathanJ1
17:11:59 <Travis> ... features are being added from use cases in other specs.
17:12:24 <Travis> marcosc: We need a proper plan, we have a devision between v1 and v2.
17:12:45 <Travis> ... we keep fixing features and adding features. It's continuing to evolve.
17:12:55 <Travis> chaals: Are you volunteering to publish a v1?
17:12:59 <Travis> Yves: Yes, of course.
17:13:17 <Travis> chaals: Straw Poll: shall we try to publish a V1?
17:13:31 <Travis> marcosc: I think we risk fragmentation.
17:13:41 <israelh> israelh has joined #webapps
17:13:43 <Travis> Yves: It's documenting what's pretty stable. We have tests, etc.
17:13:56 <Travis> ... we are mostly adding things, not modifying things
17:14:06 <Domenic> -1 on v1. Disagree that things are only being added.
17:14:28 <Travis> marcosc: we've been talking about the v1/v2 thing for awhile... if Yves can't get it done, we should kill it.
17:14:36 <MikeSmith> -> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?component=WebIDL&list_id=46230&product=WebAppsWG&resolution=--- 107 open WebIDL bugs
17:14:46 <Travis> chaals: Any other concerns (from non marcosc)
17:15:05 <Travis> MikeSmith: I think the level of effort is high.
17:15:17 <Travis> ... there are 107 bugs... we could use some extra help.
17:15:21 <ArtB> ACTION: yves, work on moving Web IDL v1 to REC
17:15:23 <trackbot> Error finding 'yves,'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/users>.
17:15:33 <Domenic> I am concerned that people will look at v1 and view it as authoritative, when v2 is much more up to date.
17:15:40 <Travis> chaals: Anyone here want to help finish WebIDL v1?
17:15:58 <ArtB> ACTION: charles try to find someone to help Yves, Cam and Boris on Web IDL v1
17:15:59 <trackbot> Created ACTION-743 - Try to find someone to help yves, cam and boris on web idl v1 [on Charles McCathie Nevile - due 2014-11-03].
17:16:04 <Travis> Yves: This will help with the "how do we reference WebIDL question'
17:16:13 <Travis> chaals: Web Messaging
17:16:34 <MikeSmith> ACTION: Yves to work on moving Web IDL v1 to REC
17:16:36 <trackbot> Created ACTION-744 - Work on moving web idl v1 to rec [on Yves Lafon - due 2014-11-03].
17:16:45 <Travis> ArtB: KrisK from Microsoft was going to provide some updated data.
17:17:00 <Travis> ... is Kris available to work on this?
17:17:17 <Travis> adrianba: I will check with Kris
17:17:29 <Travis> ArtB: Same story for Web Sockets
17:17:44 <Travis> ... Workers
17:17:56 <Travis> ... Simon is test facilitator
17:18:01 <tantek> tantek has joined #webapps
17:18:20 <Travis> ... He noted a few bugs, but claims the test suite is relatively complete
17:19:16 <ArtB> ACTION: adrian determine Kris' availability to work on the Web Messaging and Web Sockets implemenation reports
17:19:20 <trackbot> 'adrian' is an ambiguous username. Please try a different identifier, such as family name or username (e.g., abateman2, ayanes).
17:19:41 <ArtB> ACTION: barstow followup with Simon re running the Web Workers tests
17:19:43 <trackbot> Created ACTION-745 - Followup with simon re running the web workers tests [on Arthur Barstow - due 2014-11-03].
17:19:57 <Travis> chaals: XHR is on the agenda...
17:19:59 <Travis> ... Web Components?
17:20:06 <MikeSmith> ACTION: abateman2 to determine Kris' availability to work on the Web Messaging and Web Sockets implemenation reports
17:20:08 <trackbot> Created ACTION-746 - Determine kris' availability to work on the web messaging and web sockets implemenation reports [on Adrian Bateman - due 2014-11-03].
17:20:40 <kusakak> kusakak has joined #webapps
17:20:48 <Travis> ArtB: Now showing Dmitri's status report on custom elements...
17:21:51 <hjshin> hjshin has joined #webapps
17:22:04 <Travis> rniwa: For custom elements, the lifecycle methods are defined pretty vague. I believe this needs to be more well-defined.
17:22:16 <ArtB> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2014OctDec/0248.html -> Custom Elements status from Dimitri 2014-Oct-24
17:22:19 <Travis> ... "transitioning from script to user-agent code" not precise enough.
17:22:43 <Travis> ArtB: One other thing: on April meeting we talked a lot about these three specs.
17:22:44 <Domenic> +1
17:23:02 <Domenic> annevk was looking into the transition from script to user-agent code thing at one point
17:23:32 <Travis> ... dimitri has sent out requests for feedback, but it looks like no one is showing that must interest?
17:23:56 <Travis> sicking: in our experience, the spec is lacking and ambiguous; it's been hard to get things defined.
17:24:06 <Travis> ... we've tried to implement, but it's been hard/impossible.
17:24:13 <ArtB> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2014OctDec/0249.html -> HTML Imports status report frm Hajime on 2014-Oct-24
17:24:25 <Travis> ... I sadly have no specific examples, but it would be nice to address these issues.
17:24:50 <HZ> HZ has joined #webapps
17:24:57 <Domenic> callbacks/transition from user code bug: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=24579
17:25:04 <Travis> rniwa: I don't have a lot of time to engage in tech conference all the time; I'm pretty busy. I prefer to stick to the mailing list to work async.
17:25:19 <zcorpan> zcorpan has joined #webapps
17:25:22 <ArtB> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2014OctDec/0222.html -> Shadow DOM status report from Hayato on 2014-Oct-23
17:25:29 <Travis> chaals: Seems like folks want this and are waiting for it to be done.
17:25:32 <jcraig> jcraig has joined #webapps
17:26:10 <Travis> sicking: Are the spec editors willing to have co-editors?
17:26:20 <tantek> tantek has joined #webapps
17:26:23 <Travis> chaals: chairs may be willing to appoint co-editors.
17:26:42 <Travis> ArtB: For resource committments, folks can talk to us
17:27:01 <Travis> rniwa: Given Mozilla is implementing, can we see some help from there.
17:27:33 <hallvors> hallvors has joined #webapps
17:28:12 <Travis> (google) we're open to help (I work with dimitri)
17:29:19 <Travis> chaals: Poll says lots of folks enthusiastically ready to see this tech delivered. More test cases, spec editing help appreciated.
17:29:24 <Travis> ... volunteer now!
17:29:31 <Travis> ... or when you want to :-)
17:29:38 <smaug> tantek: are you following the discussion?
17:30:09 <timeless> scribe: timeless
17:30:15 <timeless> scribenick: timeless
17:30:15 <Travis> chaals: This sums up the review of pubstatus.
17:30:22 <jcraig_> jcraig_ has joined #webapps
17:30:25 <timeless> s/Travis/scribe/
17:30:34 <timeless> [ Break until 11:00 ]
17:30:54 <tantek_> tantek_ has joined #webapps
17:30:59 <Zakim> -Olli_Pettay
17:31:14 <tyoshino> Present+ Takeshi_Yoshino
17:32:34 <a1zu> a1zu has joined #webapps
17:37:17 <a1zu> a1zu has joined #webapps
17:40:56 <jhund> jhund has joined #webapps
17:43:08 <rubys> rubys has joined #webapps
17:43:14 <rubys> rubys has left #webapps
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17:47:05 <notbenjamin> notbenjamin has joined #webapps
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17:54:16 <makotom> makotom has joined #webapps
17:56:38 <fjh> fjh has joined #webapps
17:57:23 <Zakim> +Domenic
17:58:54 <Zakim> +[IPcaller.a]
17:59:28 <anssik> zakim, [IPcaller.a] is me
17:59:28 <Zakim> +anssik; got it
17:59:35 <anssik> Present+ Anssi_Kostiainen
18:00:03 <tyoshino> zakim, +1.650.318.aabb is me
18:00:03 <Zakim> +tyoshino; got it
18:00:18 <Zakim> +[IPcaller.a]
18:00:30 <smaug> Zakim, [IPcaller.a] is Olli_Pettay
18:00:30 <Zakim> +Olli_Pettay; got it
18:00:43 <smaug> Zakim, nick smaug is Olli_Pettay
18:00:43 <Zakim> ok, smaug, I now associate you with Olli_Pettay
18:00:52 <smaug> Present+ Olli_Pettay
18:02:55 <arunranga> arunranga has joined #webapps
18:03:48 <MikeSmith> I am a fish
18:04:30 <timeless> Zakim, who is on the call?
18:04:30 <Zakim> On the phone I see [IPcaller], Portland, tyoshino, Domenic, anssik, Olli_Pettay
18:04:31 <ArtB> zakim, who's here?
18:04:33 <Zakim> On the phone I see [IPcaller], Portland, tyoshino, Domenic, anssik, Olli_Pettay
18:04:33 <Zakim> On IRC I see arunranga, fjh, makotom, notbenjamin, jhund_, tantek, jcraig, hallvors, zcorpan, kusakak, israelh, jrossi, hiroki, gludi|3, kurosawa, gludi_, youngwoojo, shepazu,
18:04:33 <Zakim> ... plinss, ShijunS, anssik, sam, bryan_, smaug, alia, Travis, benjamp, glenn, darobin, jungkees, RRSAgent, Zakim, adrianba, ArtB, marcosc, Zefa, chaals, lgombos, Hiroto_,
18:04:36 <Zakim> ... marcosc_, kochi1, kochi, tyoshino, igrigorik, stryx`_, stryx`, MikeSmith, botie, hober, paul___irish, slightlyoff, tobie, astearns, cwilso, timeless, scheib, hayato_, krit,
18:04:36 <Zakim> ... cabanier, jsbell
18:04:51 <timeless> Zakim, [IPCaller] is probably lgombos
18:04:52 <Zakim> +lgombos?; got it
18:04:56 <tyoshino> Zakim, nick tyoshino is Takeshi_Yoshino
18:04:56 <Zakim> sorry, tyoshino, I do not see a party named 'Takeshi_Yoshino'
18:05:03 <a1zu> a1zu has joined #webapps
18:05:04 <tyoshino> Present+ Takeshi_Yoshino
18:05:14 <hiroki> hiroki has joined #webapps
18:05:27 <Claes> Claes has joined #webapps
18:06:08 <timeless> Zakim, timeless has entered Portland
18:06:08 <Zakim> +timeless; got it
18:06:12 <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
18:06:12 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/27-webapps-minutes.html ArtB
18:06:27 <sicking> sicking has joined #webapps
18:06:46 <rniwa> rniwa has joined #webapps
18:06:50 <makotom> present+ Makoto_Morise
18:07:15 <timeless> Topic: Streams
18:07:32 <timeless> present+ timeless
18:07:40 <timeless> chaals: we recently published Streams
18:07:42 <Zefa> Zefa has joined #webapps
18:07:49 <timeless> ... Domenic, do you want to tell us where we're up to?
18:07:52 <timeless> Domenic: yeah
18:08:04 <timeless> ... from the previous discussion, the idea was to split the work into separate efforts
18:08:06 <ArtB> https://streams.spec.whatwg.org/ -> Streams by WHATWG
18:08:07 <timeless> ... one for low level JS API
18:08:14 <timeless> ... and then on top of that, one for Blobs
18:08:25 <timeless> ... a lot of the work tyoshino and I have worked on
18:08:25 <kbx> kbx has joined #webapps
18:08:29 <ArtB> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/streams-api/raw-file/tip/Overview.htm -> Streams API W3C Editor's Draft
18:08:30 <timeless> ... is going reallly well
18:08:39 <forty4> forty4 has joined #webapps
18:08:48 <timeless> s/tyoshino/DD/
18:08:53 <jdsmith> jdsmith has joined #webapps
18:08:55 <wooglae> wooglae has joined #webapps
18:08:57 <timeless> ... the public API is extremely stable at this point
18:09:03 <weinig> weinig has joined #webapps
18:09:08 <timeless> ... as we make these tweaks to external behavior
18:09:14 <spoussa> spoussa has joined #webapps
18:09:17 <timeless> ... we've been maintaining a testsuite and a polyfil
18:09:28 <timeless> ... i think coverage of testsuite against polyfil should be 80% or higher
18:09:34 <timeless> ... which i'm really happy about
18:09:36 <waynecarr> waynecarr has joined #webapps
18:09:40 <timeless> ... wrt the wider ecosystem
18:09:48 <timeless> ... there's been work to integrate with TCP Socket
18:09:55 <timeless> s|TCP|TCP/UDP|
18:10:03 <tyoshino> Polyfill -> https://github.com/whatwg/streams/tree/master/reference-implementation
18:10:04 <brianraymor> brianraymor has joined #webapps
18:10:06 <waynecarr> present+ waynecarr
18:10:15 <timeless> ... Section Service Worker
18:10:18 <timeless> ... WebAudio
18:10:39 <timeless> s/DD/tyoshino/
18:10:50 <timeless> ... tyoshino has been working on ByteStreams
18:10:54 <timeless> ... that's been going really well
18:11:06 <timeless> ... we merged that this morning, it's at first-draft status
18:11:12 <tyoshino> ByteStream -> https://github.com/whatwg/streams/blob/master/BinaryExtension.md
18:11:12 <timeless> ... the public api is unchanged
18:11:26 <ArtB> -> https://github.com/whatwg/streams/issues?q=is%3Aopen WHATWG Streams Open Issues
18:11:28 <timeless> chaals: during the publishing discussion
18:11:39 <timeless> ... people said you have a mismatch between the spec and MSE
18:11:49 <adrianba> q+
18:11:58 <MikeSmith> ack makotom
18:11:59 <timeless> s|ByteStream -> https://github.com/whatwg/streams/blob/master/BinaryExtension.md|-> https://github.com/whatwg/streams/blob/master/BinaryExtension.md ByteStream|
18:12:04 <MikeSmith> ack MikeSmith
18:12:04 <Zakim> MikeSmith, you wanted to comment
18:12:11 <timeless> Domenic: we talked w/ the MSE spec author
18:12:21 <timeless> ... the old direction wasn't good
18:12:37 <timeless> ... we're looking on being able to integrate MSE streams w/ other streams in the ecosystems
18:12:40 <timeless> ... kind of the point
18:12:43 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
18:12:43 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/27-webapps-minutes.html MikeSmith
18:12:46 <sicking_> sicking_ has joined #webapps
18:12:49 <timeless> chaals: anyone here from an MSE who wants to speak?
18:12:51 <timeless> q?
18:13:15 <alan-i> alan-i has joined #webapps
18:13:24 <timeless> jdsmith: we're still trying to evaluate the changes necessary to implement streams w/ the new model
18:13:30 <timeless> ... it's a moderate amount of work
18:13:37 <timeless> ... we haven't made a determination of the technical merits
18:13:42 <MikeSmith> ack adrianba
18:13:49 <ShijunS> present+ Shijun_Sun
18:13:50 <jhund> jhund has joined #webapps
18:13:50 <timeless> adrianba: i wonder if there's a little confusion between MSE streams
18:13:55 <timeless> ... and MediaStreams in MediaCapture
18:14:10 <timeless> ... it sounded like what Domenic spoke about was more applicable to MediaStreams
18:14:12 <adrianba> http://www.w3.org/TR/2014/CR-media-source-20140717/#sotd
18:14:14 <timeless> ... in MSE we have a note
18:14:15 <chaals> q+ art
18:14:29 <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
18:14:29 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/27-webapps-minutes.html ArtB
18:14:40 <timeless> s|http://www.w3.org/TR/2014/CR-media-source-20140717/#sotd|-> http://www.w3.org/TR/2014/CR-media-source-20140717/#sotd Media Source Extensions Status of This Document|
18:14:45 <timeless> adrianba: when we went to CR
18:14:55 <timeless> ... it was early in the work that Domenic was doing on the Stream API
18:15:04 <timeless> ... we took a dependency to a Stream Object
18:15:13 <timeless> ... a readable stream that could be read asynchronously
18:15:24 <timeless> ... i think that dependency should be to ReadableByteStream
18:15:31 <timeless> ... i don't think MSE has a big issue for integration
18:15:38 <plh> plh has joined #webapps
18:15:40 <alan-i> present+ Alan_Iida
18:15:52 <timeless> Domenic: i was talking with Aaron Kolel
18:15:58 <timeless> ... AppendStream
18:16:07 <timeless> ... could take readable stream with bytes
18:16:11 <miterho> miterho has joined #webapps
18:16:13 <adrianba> s/Kolel/Colwell/
18:16:18 <timeless> ... we also want to expose a writeable stream
18:16:27 <aaa> aaa has joined #webapps
18:16:33 <timeless> ... the AppendStream pattern is a little specific to MSE
18:16:47 <timeless> ... but we also want to allow people to just write to a WriteableStream
18:16:54 <timeless> adrianba: that makes sense
18:17:05 <timeless> Domenic: that shouldn't block MSE from advancing
18:17:14 <DaveWalp> DaveWalp has joined #WebApps
18:17:14 <timeless> s/WriteableStream/WritableStream/
18:17:49 <chaals> ack art
18:18:05 <timeless> ArtB: at one point, there was discussion, that Streams would move into TC39
18:18:09 <timeless> ... and become part of EcmaScript
18:18:14 <timeless> ... is that still the plan?
18:18:18 <timeless> ... do you have any update on it?
18:18:29 <timeless> Domenic: as i've been working on it, i'm not sure
18:18:32 <timeless> ... it's JS
18:18:40 <timeless> ... it takes no dependencies on Web specific stuff
18:18:49 <timeless> ... on the other hand, EcmaScript is very small
18:18:52 <timeless> ... and this would be very big
18:18:58 <timeless> ... so I want to see what the committee says
18:19:10 <timeless> ... I'm sure this could ship in multiple environments, including Node.js
18:19:27 <timeless> ... not just theoretically, we (me) could get this shipping in Node.js
18:19:56 <timeless> israelh: how does the fact that there's this portion of Stream APIs in WHAT WG
18:20:04 <timeless> ... how do we take a dependency on that?
18:20:11 <timeless> ... I understand W3 process to documents
18:20:15 <timeless> ... but this other dependency
18:20:23 <timeless> chaals: there are 2 ways you can do it
18:20:33 <timeless> ... one, you can publish a version of the content @ W3C
18:20:46 <ArtB> q+ marcos
18:20:46 <timeless> ... WHATWG says "we can have specs you can fork, but we don't want you to"
18:20:56 <ArtB> ack marcos
18:21:07 <timeless> ack marcosc
18:21:24 <tomoyuki> tomoyuki has joined #webapps
18:21:27 <timeless> marcosc: we had a call with tyoshino and others
18:21:36 <timeless> ... the WHAT WG version would be an ED
18:21:40 <myakura> myakura has joined #webapps
18:21:42 <timeless> ... and we'd work with the W3 Process
18:21:46 <stone> stone has joined #webapps
18:22:02 <timeless> ... because we understood it was important for MSE
18:22:22 <timeless> ... plh put forward the proposal to have [WHATWG] EDs in TR
18:22:32 <timeless> ... particularly for Streams
18:22:38 <timeless> Domenic: we had that call a while ago
18:22:47 <timeless> ... I agreed that if that's what it takes, that's what I'll do
18:22:57 <timeless> ... I'd like to investigate a way to reference directly
18:23:02 <timeless> ... if not, then we can just copy
18:23:28 <timeless> plh: on ED, what we're doing for this is to have no human involved in propagating WDs
18:23:38 <timeless> ... I wouldn't want people to lose focus
18:23:45 <timeless> ... on Wednesday, we'll have W3C 20
18:23:55 <timeless> ... we're going to use a plugin to broadcast live
18:24:03 <timeless> ... we have users today who'd love to broadcast live
18:24:16 <timeless> ... until we get Streams done, we can't do this without plugins
18:24:29 <timeless> ... can you get it done by Wednesday (and Deployed)
18:24:34 <timeless> s/)/)?/
18:24:41 <plh> plh: :)
18:24:55 <timeless> chaals: W3C needs to get a document, or people need to figure out how to reference
18:25:02 <timeless> ... this is politics... including us
18:25:10 <timeless> israelh: do we have an action item to do the copying?
18:25:12 <miterho> present+miterho
18:25:29 <timeless> Domenic: all commits are reference global by unique url
18:25:33 <timeless> ... you can reference a single version
18:25:41 <timeless> ... i'm willing to work with you guys on this process
18:25:54 <timeless> chaals: my understanding is that we have an agreement to publish a W3C version from time to time
18:26:11 <timeless> Domenic: i will not go back on that agreement, even though I like it less and less
18:26:15 <timeless> chaals: anything more on streams?
18:26:31 <timeless> ArtB: thanks Domenic
18:26:39 <Zakim> -Domenic
18:27:09 <Zakim> -anssik
18:27:16 <timeless> [ Break until 11:30 ]
18:27:19 <plh> s/broadcast live/broadcast live using HTML5/
18:28:32 <hiroto> hiroto has joined #webapps
18:29:05 <Zakim> -tyoshino
18:29:15 <darobin> darobin has joined #webapps
18:29:40 <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
18:29:40 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/27-webapps-minutes.html timeless
18:30:23 <brianraymor> brianraymor has joined #webapps
18:30:23 <timeless> s|Polyfill -> https://github.com/whatwg/streams/tree/master/reference-implementation|-> https://github.com/whatwg/streams/tree/master/reference-implementation Polyfill|
18:30:41 <Zakim> + +47.21.65.aacc
18:30:49 <timeless> s|https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/streams-api/raw-file/tip/Overview.htm -> Streams API W3C Editor's Draft |-> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/streams-api/raw-file/tip/Overview.htm Streams API W3C Editor's Draft|
18:31:00 <timeless> Zakim, aacc is hallvors
18:31:00 <Zakim> +hallvors; got it
18:31:20 <timeless> s|https://streams.spec.whatwg.org/ -> Streams by WHATWG|-> https://streams.spec.whatwg.org/ Streams by WHATWG|
18:31:22 <timeless> Topic: XHR
18:31:26 <ArtB> -> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/xhr/raw-file/default/xhr-1/Overview.html XHR1 ED
18:31:34 <timeless> jungkees: we already discussed before the meeting
18:31:41 <timeless> ... speaking on behalf of the Editors
18:31:50 <timeless> ... we decided to publish a new version
18:31:53 <timeless> ... at W3C
18:31:57 <timeless> ... to have a stable version
18:32:15 <timeless> ... we will specify clearly that "this spec specifies features as of this date"
18:32:26 <Zakim> +tyoshino
18:32:37 <MikeSmith> q+ to ask if bz is on board with that plan
18:32:41 <timeless> ... "but that for future versions/features, you will have to use the WHATWG version"
18:32:43 <ArtB> -> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/xhr/raw-file/default/xhr-1/Overview.html XHR L2 ED
18:32:56 <waynecarr> waynecarr has joined #webapps
18:32:58 <timeless> chaals: straw poll, do people think that's a crazy idea?
18:33:03 <timeless> ... publish XHR1-legacy spec
18:33:22 <timeless> ... and that there is no current plan to work on future versions of XHR in this WG
18:33:36 <timeless> weinig: what's the value?
18:33:56 <timeless> chaals: there's value to have a referenceable version
18:34:05 <timeless> ... like what Spanish governments use
18:34:10 <MikeSmith> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2014OctDec/0164.html Comments from bz on earlier proposed options
18:34:10 <wooglae> wooglae has joined #webapps
18:34:15 <plh> plh has joined #webapps
18:34:15 <timeless> ... lots of people use this
18:34:25 <timeless> ... they use basic features of non bleeding edge technology
18:34:27 <rubys1> rubys1 has joined #webapps
18:34:28 <timeless> ... including XHR
18:34:33 <timeless> ... quite important to consumers/market
18:34:34 <Zakim> -Olli_Pettay
18:34:42 <timeless> ... they say, can we please have a stable version of the spec
18:34:44 <JonathanJ1> JonathanJ1 has joined #webapps
18:34:51 <timeless> ... W3C happens to be in a position to do that
18:35:06 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
18:35:12 <timeless> ... if you try to tell WebMasters working across Spain, they have real problems working within their legal requiements
18:35:17 <smaug> Zakim, [IPcaller] is Olli_Pettay
18:35:17 <Zakim> +Olli_Pettay; got it
18:35:21 <timeless> weinig: if we don't do it, what would spain do?
18:35:27 <timeless> s/spain/Spain/
18:35:33 <timeless> chaals: it depends on whereabouts you are
18:35:39 <timeless> ... some will go out and make stuff up
18:35:39 <wooglae> wooglae has joined #webapps
18:35:41 <adrianba> q+
18:35:47 <timeless> ... a lot of places will just NOT USE XHR
18:35:52 <timeless> ... which is destructive
18:35:57 <timeless> q?
18:35:59 <marcosc> q+
18:36:03 <wooglae> wooglae has joined #webapps
18:36:03 <timeless> ... because XHR is really valuable
18:36:04 <gludi|3> gludi|3 has joined #webapps
18:36:05 <timeless> ack MikeSmith
18:36:05 <Zakim> MikeSmith, you wanted to ask if bz is on board with that plan
18:36:19 <timeless> MikeSmith: it sounds like what you're planning to do is what bz thought was a good idea
18:36:51 <timeless> ... but it's good to confirm this is in line with what bz suggested
18:37:24 <timeless> [ bz: If we want to publish something at all, I think this is the most ]
18:37:24 <timeless> [ ... reasonable option, frankly.  I have no strong opinions on whether this ]
18:37:24 <timeless> [ ... is done REC-track or as a Note, I think, but I think such a document ]
18:37:24 <timeless> [ ... would in fact be useful to have if it doesn't exist yet. ]
18:37:33 <timeless> ack Yves
18:37:38 <timeless> Yves: what's the current status?
18:37:43 <marcosc> q-
18:37:53 <timeless> ... having only one document with errata?
18:38:04 <timeless> jungkees: the current ED / latest public WD
18:38:10 <timeless> ... don't have the changes from the Fetch spec
18:38:25 <timeless> ... what we're trying to do is publish the legacy capabilities and features that the browsers implement
18:38:41 <timeless> ... saying that this spec defines those capabilities / features that browsers implement as of this date
18:38:51 <timeless> Yves: do people want to add more things to XHR?
18:38:57 <timeless> jungkees: that would be XHR.2
18:39:03 <timeless> ... we don't have an idea of what that is
18:39:10 <timeless> ... annevk is working on Fetch
18:39:17 <timeless> ... he pointed out several features as well
18:39:21 <chaals> q+
18:39:23 <timeless> ... there will be more changes as time goes by
18:39:28 <timeless> ... we aren't following that point
18:39:41 <jeff_> jeff_ has joined #webapps
18:39:46 <timeless> ... what we're trying to do as of now is that there's a pointer to the future spec (outside W3)
18:39:56 <timeless> ... the editors haven't discussed a v2 plan
18:40:02 <timeless> ... forking Fetch wouldn't really work
18:40:11 <timeless> ... WHATWG is working on Fetch very actively
18:40:12 <timeless> ack adrianba
18:40:12 <chaals> q+ art
18:40:32 <hallvors> q+
18:40:49 <timeless> adrianba: XHR is a really old technology
18:40:54 <timeless> ... we (MS) shipped it a really long time ago
18:41:02 <timeless> ... I think there's a bunch of sites on the web that use it
18:41:15 <timeless> ... the Spanish people will use it once we get this done
18:41:26 <timeless> ... There are some issues w/ event ordering and other related things
18:41:34 <chaals> q-
18:41:37 <timeless> ... I think there's particular value in having a REC with IP commitments
18:41:45 <timeless> ... I'd like to see this done w/ minimum effort
18:41:50 <timeless> ... get the legacy thing written down
18:41:59 <jcraig> jcraig has joined #webapps
18:41:59 <timeless> ... don't worry too much about implementation differences
18:42:08 <marcosc> Q+
18:42:11 <timeless> ... I remember being here five years ago having the same discussion about the differences
18:42:12 <sunghan_> sunghan_ has joined #webapps
18:42:16 <timeless> ... the web hasn't collapsed
18:42:21 <timeless> ... let's get this done
18:42:34 <timeless> jungkees: we could publish as NOTE
18:42:41 <timeless> [ NOTE does not get IP committment ]
18:42:43 <timeless> ack ArtB
18:42:50 <timeless> ArtB: I support publishing
18:42:51 <plh> ack art
18:42:59 <timeless> ... at some point, we published Level 2
18:43:21 <timeless> ... we should at a minimum move this to WG NOTE, gut it, and include a pointer to WHATWG
18:43:30 <timeless> ... if there's support for that, I'll make a CfC for it
18:43:39 <timeless> ... on L1, do you want to move it to REC?
18:43:50 <timeless> jungkees: we thought it brings value to the industry
18:43:55 <chaals> q+
18:43:56 <timeless> ... but we'll follow the decision of the grou[
18:43:59 <timeless> s/[/p/
18:44:10 <timeless> ArtB: the plan of record is to take L1 to REC
18:44:14 <timeless> ack hallvors
18:44:29 <timeless> hallvors: on the future of XHR and Fetch
18:44:39 <timeless> ... annevk's plan is to merge XHR into Fetch
18:44:50 <timeless> ... going forward, there may not be an XHR spec at WHATWG
18:44:55 <timeless> ... just a Fetch spec
18:45:07 <timeless> ... I think we should just get rid of the level 2 draft
18:45:16 <timeless> ... and just refer to whatever annevk has developed
18:45:22 <timeless> ack marcosc
18:45:33 <timeless> marcosc: i'd like to hear from the Editors what changes they expect to make
18:45:36 <timeless> ... and in what time frame
18:45:37 <timeless> ... let
18:45:43 <timeless> s/let/let's move this to PR/
18:45:45 <ArtB> ACTION: barstow start a CfC to gut XHR L2 and publish a WG Note
18:45:45 <trackbot> Created ACTION-747 - Start a cfc to gut xhr l2 and publish a wg note [on Arthur Barstow - due 2014-11-03].
18:45:59 <timeless> jungkees: the status of the document is WD
18:46:03 <timeless> ... we have a Test Suite
18:46:18 <hallvors> (I can't hear you anymore, not sure what happened)
18:46:21 <timeless> ... we have ~80% test cases passing more than 2 implementations
18:46:31 <timeless> Zakim, who is on the call?
18:46:31 <Zakim> On the phone I see lgombos?, Portland, hallvors, tyoshino, Olli_Pettay
18:46:33 <Zakim> Portland has timeless
18:46:39 <timeless> s/(I can't hear you anymore, not sure what happened)//
18:46:43 <timeless> ack chaals
18:46:53 <timeless> chaals: if the Editors have a spec
18:46:54 <ArtB> -> http://jungkees.github.io/XMLHttpRequest-test/ XHR Test Results
18:46:55 <Zakim> -hallvors
18:47:09 <timeless> ... and it's highly likely that people can put XHR in web sites
18:47:13 <timeless> ... and have it not fall over
18:47:19 <timeless> ... then we can take that argument to the Director
18:47:23 <Zakim> +hallvors
18:47:24 <timeless> ... and say that
18:47:31 <timeless> ... and that is how we'd get it out the door
18:47:38 <timeless> ... i'd like to return to the straw poll
18:47:51 <timeless> q?
18:47:58 <timeless> q+ Yves
18:48:04 <timeless> q+ rniwa
18:48:10 <timeless> ... are there people who object to the proposal that we publish L1?
18:48:15 <timeless> [ None ]
18:48:24 <timeless> ... are there people who are in favor ofthe proposal that we publish L1?
18:48:28 <timeless> s/ofthe/of the/
18:48:30 <plh> ack Yves
18:48:36 <timeless> [ A good number of hands ]
18:48:43 <timeless> Yves: there are a couple of tests with failures
18:48:47 <timeless> ... due to implementation bugs
18:48:56 <timeless> ... it doesn't mean that the specification is failing
18:49:01 <timeless> ... they're bugs in the implementations
18:49:04 <timeless> ack rniwa
18:49:13 <waynecarr_> waynecarr_ has joined #webapps
18:49:15 <timeless> rniwa: are there inconsistencies between the XHR1 spec and the WHATWG spec?
18:49:22 <hallvors> q+
18:49:43 <timeless> jungkees: Fetch spec is more interested in the underlying details
18:49:50 <timeless> chaals: are there behavior differences?
18:49:57 <timeless> jungkees: annevk mentioned Service Worker
18:50:06 <timeless> ... but XHR2 doesn't cover that
18:50:24 <timeless> rniwa: does the current XHR1 spec have inconsistent behaviors to the WHATWG XHR spe
18:50:26 <timeless> s/spe/spec/
18:50:29 <plh> q+
18:50:40 <timeless> ... if someone implemented XHR1 perfectly and that was incompatible w/ WHATWG
18:50:44 <timeless> ... that would be bad
18:50:50 <timeless> jungkees: WHATWG just has more features
18:50:57 <timeless> ... there wouldn't be inconsistencies to the legacy behavior
18:51:07 <timeless> marcosc: i don't think anyone would implement just XHR1
18:51:17 <timeless> q?
18:51:29 <timeless> chaals: people will use just XHR1
18:51:30 <Domenic> there are behavior diferences
18:51:31 <timeless> ack hallvors
18:51:35 <Domenic> XHR1 does not go through service worker
18:51:42 <Domenic> WHATWG XHR goes through service worker
18:51:50 <timeless> hallvors: it's important that we not specify in XHR1 things that are incompatible w/ WHATWG
18:51:58 <timeless> ... most of the differences are due to refactors
18:52:05 <timeless> ... moving things from XHR to Fetch
18:52:17 <timeless> ... I think we should do some extra reviews to make sure we don't have incompatibilities
18:52:37 <timeless> ... so that developers who implement to our spec won't have to change and change back
18:52:38 <timeless> ack plh
18:52:48 <timeless> plh: I was going to say what I said to the CSS WG 8 years ago
18:52:59 <timeless> ... recommending a spec that isn't getting implemented isn't useful
18:53:06 <Domenic> earlier someone said publishing would be useful for developers. that is not true. tutorials are useful for developers, but a(n outdated) spec is not.
18:53:10 <timeless> ... unless the implementers will change their implementation
18:53:15 <timeless> ... we need to spec what's implemented
18:53:18 <chaals> q+
18:53:22 <timeless> ... no use in recommending a spec that isn't implemented
18:53:29 <timeless> ... we need tests and make sure it's implemented
18:53:32 <timeless> ... this is what we need to spec
18:53:34 <timeless> ack chaals
18:53:43 <timeless> chaals: introducing known incompatibilities is dumb
18:54:01 <timeless> ... there's a use in having things defined that work
18:54:13 <timeless> ... there's nothing wrong with saying "doing this would be kind of dumb"
18:54:30 <adrianba> q+
18:54:37 <timeless> ... clarifying bits that would have trouble
18:54:42 <timeless> ... with a warning of where to look
18:54:46 <timeless> ... these are all good things
18:54:53 <timeless> ... including getting/giving IP commitments
18:55:08 <timeless> adrianba: it may be that to follow the CSS model, we may need to add some ambiguity to the spec
18:55:10 <timeless> [ laughter ]
18:55:19 <timeless> adrianba: from the browser perspective, it isn't super important
18:55:26 <timeless> ... but to allow for developers to read this
18:55:33 <timeless> ... saying you should have things in a certain order
18:55:41 <timeless> ... if someone relies on this order, then that's a problem
18:55:52 <timeless> ... if we say "you should do it this way, but you can't rely on it this way"
18:56:08 <timeless> ... using those test results, we might want to codify those differences
18:56:14 <timeless> chaals: you want us to describe the known unknowns
18:56:26 <jeff_> present+ jeff
18:56:27 <timeless> adrianba: but not the unknown unkowns
18:56:32 <timeless> [ laughter ]
18:56:51 <timeless> chaals: seems there's quite a lot of support for the plan of record
18:56:57 <timeless> ... a spec that's useful that people can use
18:56:59 <timeless> ... and publish it
18:57:10 <timeless> ... i suggest that a provisional resolution is that's what we do
18:57:13 <timeless> ... objections?
18:57:15 <timeless> [ none ]
18:57:30 <timeless> [ Lunch until 1:00 pm ]
18:57:30 <alan-i> alan-i has left #webapps
18:57:36 <timeless> Topic: Push API and Service Workers
18:57:42 <Zakim> -Olli_Pettay
18:57:43 <xiaoqian> RRSAgent, drop minutes
18:57:43 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'drop minutes', xiaoqian.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
18:57:46 <marcosc> marcosc has joined #webapps
18:57:55 <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
18:57:55 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/27-webapps-minutes.html timeless
18:57:58 <Zakim> -lgombos?
18:59:20 <Zakim> -hallvors
19:00:12 <ArtB> RRSAgent, help
19:00:41 <ArtB> RRSAgent, this meeting spans midnight
19:00:43 <darobin> darobin has joined #webapps
19:06:38 <Zakim> -tyoshino
19:15:48 <mvano> mvano has joined #webapps
19:18:05 <myakura> myakura has joined #webapps
19:34:17 <mvano> mvano has joined #webapps
19:39:27 <arunranga> arunranga has joined #webapps
19:51:07 <TNK> TNK has joined #webapps
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19:57:39 <johnmellor-chrome> johnmellor-chrome has joined #webapps
19:57:41 <notbenjamin> notbenjamin has joined #webapps
19:58:57 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
19:59:07 <jsbell> Present+ Joshua_Bell
19:59:24 <wooglae> wooglae has joined #webapps
19:59:27 <Zakim> +??P1
19:59:51 <lgombos> Zakim,  +[IPcaller] is lgombos
19:59:51 <Zakim> sorry, lgombos, I do not recognize a party named '+[IPcaller]'
19:59:55 <rubys> rubys has joined #webapps
19:59:58 <benjamp> benjamp has joined #webapps
20:00:01 <lgombos> Zakim,  [IPcaller] is lgombos
20:00:01 <Zakim> +lgombos; got it
20:00:16 <weinig> weinig has joined #webapps
20:00:55 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
20:00:59 <alan-i> alan-i has joined #webapps
20:01:32 <notbenjamin> notbenjamin has joined #webapps
20:01:42 <a12u> a12u has joined #webapps
20:01:59 <smaug> Zakim, [IPcaller] is Olli_Pettay
20:01:59 <Zakim> +Olli_Pettay; got it
20:02:28 <DaveWalp> DaveWalp has joined #webapps
20:02:39 <Zakim> + +44.207.095.aadd
20:02:41 <israelh> israelh has joined #webapps
20:02:43 <abarsto> abarsto has joined #webapps
20:03:39 <aaa> aaa has joined #webapps
20:04:10 <rniwa> rniwa has joined #webapps
20:04:40 <myakura> myakura has joined #webapps
20:05:01 <timeless> Zakim, who is on the call?
20:05:01 <Zakim> On the phone I see Portland, lgombos, ??P1, Olli_Pettay, +44.207.095.aadd
20:05:04 <Zakim> Portland has timeless
20:05:18 <brianraymor> brianraymor has joined #webapps
20:05:19 <Zakim> -??P1
20:05:54 <mvano> 44 is me
20:06:02 <Zakim> +??P1
20:06:18 <timeless> Zakim, aadd is mvano
20:06:18 <Zakim> +mvano; got it
20:06:21 <johnmellor-chrome> I'm one of the people on the phone
20:06:22 <timeless> s/44 is me//
20:06:28 <timeless> Zakim, P1 is johnmellor-chrome
20:06:28 <Zakim> sorry, timeless, I do not recognize a party named 'P1'
20:06:32 <timeless> Zakim, ??P1 is johnmellor-chrome
20:06:32 <Zakim> +johnmellor-chrome; got it
20:06:33 <mvano> audio is terrible though
20:06:40 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
20:06:44 <timeless> s/audio is terrible though//
20:06:46 <ArtB> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2014OctDec/att-0283/RTC_and_Push_scenario.pdf Push API Slides by Shijun
20:06:50 <brianraymor> Present+ Brian_Raymor
20:06:51 <ArtB> zakim, who's here
20:06:51 <Zakim> ArtB, you need to end that query with '?'
20:06:54 <anssik> zakim, [IPcaller] is me
20:06:54 <Zakim> +anssik; got it
20:07:02 <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
20:07:02 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/27-webapps-minutes.html timeless
20:07:26 <ArtB> zakim, who's here?
20:07:26 <spoussa> spoussa has joined #webapps
20:07:26 <Zakim> On the phone I see Portland, lgombos, Olli_Pettay, mvano, johnmellor-chrome, anssik
20:07:28 <Zakim> Portland has timeless
20:07:28 <Zakim> On IRC I see spoussa, brianraymor, myakura, rniwa, aaa, ArtB, israelh, DaveWalp, a12u, notbenjamin, alan-i, weinig, benjamp, rubys, wooglae, johnmellor-chrome, hiroki, TNK,
20:07:28 <Zakim> ... arunranga, mvano, gludi|3, hiroto, hallvors, plinss, anssik, bryan_, smaug, jungkees, RRSAgent, Zakim, lgombos, marcosc_, kochi1, kochi, tyoshino, igrigorik, stryx`_, stryx`,
20:07:30 <Zakim> ... MikeSmith, botie, hober, paul___irish, slightlyoff, tobie, astearns, cwilso, timeless, scheib, hayato_, krit, cabanier, jsbell, mkwst___, Domenic, FerasM__, dcooney___, pdr__,
20:07:30 <Zakim> ... Hixie
20:07:33 <marcosc> marcosc has joined #webapps
20:07:55 <timeless> s|https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/streams-api/raw-file/tip/Overview.htm -> Streams API W3C Editor's Draft|-> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/streams-api/raw-file/tip/Overview.htm Streams API W3C Editor's Draft|
20:07:58 <alia> alia has joined #webapps
20:08:13 <timeless> Topic: Introductions 2
20:08:21 <timeless> alex: Alex Russel, Google
20:08:22 <forty4> forty4 has joined #webapps
20:08:34 <timeless> mounir: Mounir, Google
20:08:38 <ArtB> Present+ Alex_Russel, Mounir, Ben_Poulain
20:08:50 <Zakim> -mvano
20:08:54 <timeless> notbenjamin: Benjamin, Apple
20:09:01 <timeless> weinig: Sam Weinig, Apple
20:09:22 <timeless> norbert: Norbert Lindenberg, Invited Expert
20:09:24 <ArtB> Present+ Sam_Weining, Joshua_Bell, Norbert_Lindenberg, Kenji
20:09:33 <timeless> kenji: Kenji, Google
20:09:41 <timeless> Joshua_Bell: Joshua Bell, Google
20:09:42 <ArtB> zakim, who's here?
20:09:42 <Zakim> On the phone I see Portland, lgombos, Olli_Pettay, johnmellor-chrome, anssik
20:09:46 <Zakim> Portland has timeless
20:09:46 <Zakim> On IRC I see forty4, alia, marcosc, spoussa, brianraymor, myakura, rniwa, aaa, ArtB, israelh, DaveWalp, a12u, notbenjamin, alan-i, weinig, benjamp, rubys, wooglae,
20:09:46 <Zakim> ... johnmellor-chrome, hiroki, TNK, arunranga, mvano, hallvors, plinss, anssik, bryan_, smaug, jungkees, RRSAgent, Zakim, lgombos, marcosc_, kochi1, kochi, tyoshino, igrigorik,
20:09:46 <Zakim> ... stryx`_, stryx`, MikeSmith, botie, hober, paul___irish, slightlyoff, tobie, astearns, cwilso, timeless, scheib, hayato_, krit, cabanier, jsbell, mkwst___, Domenic, FerasM__,
20:09:46 <Zakim> ... dcooney___, pdr__
20:09:52 <timeless> lgombos: Lazlo Gombos, Samsung
20:09:56 <timeless> johnmellor-chrome: John Mellor, Google
20:09:59 <timeless> q?
20:10:08 <timeless> Zakim, who is on the call?
20:10:08 <Zakim> On the phone I see Portland, lgombos, Olli_Pettay, johnmellor-chrome, anssik
20:10:11 <Zakim> Portland has timeless
20:10:17 <Zakim> + +44.207.346.aaee
20:10:20 <timeless> anssik: Anssi Kostiainen, Intel
20:10:33 <Claes> Claes has joined #webapps
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20:10:37 <mounir> +Michael_van_Ouwerkerk
20:10:50 <mounir> Present+ Michael_van_Ouwerkerk
20:10:52 <timeless> Michael_van_Ouwerkerk: Michael van Ouwerkerk, Google
20:11:00 <timeless> s/Topic: Push API and Service Workers//
20:11:03 <timeless> Topic: Push API and Service Workers
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20:11:30 <timeless> QQ: The slides are based on the mailing list
20:11:54 <timeless> s/QQ/Shijun/
20:12:03 <timeless> ... We want to use Push
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20:12:20 <timeless> [ Slide 2 ]
20:12:25 <timeless> Purpose
20:12:35 <timeless> Make sure we understand the steps and options in the basic E2E flow
20:12:35 <timeless> of Real-Time Communications (RTC) with push message, i.e. push an
20:12:35 <timeless> “incoming call” notification to the user.
20:12:39 <zcorpan> zcorpan has joined #webapps
20:12:40 <kenneth__> kenneth__ has joined #webapps
20:12:40 <timeless> • Identify bottlenecks and open issues.
20:12:42 <kbx> kbx has joined #webapps
20:12:44 <timeless> [ Slide 3 ]
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20:12:53 <timeless> Priorities
20:12:53 <timeless> • Low latency
20:12:53 <timeless> • High reliability
20:12:53 <timeless> • High power efficiency
20:12:57 <timeless> [ Slide 4 ]
20:13:03 <timeless> < graphic >
20:13:12 <timeless> Shijun: if you use Skype.com
20:13:17 <timeless> ... the user goes there, logs in
20:13:18 <plh> plh has joined #webapps
20:13:23 <timeless> ... we want the app to be able to register something for the user
20:13:23 <plh> Present+ mnot
20:13:29 <timeless> ... it isn't sensitive to realtime
20:13:33 <timeless> ... the user isn't making a call yet
20:13:42 <timeless> ... we need to set up something for the service worker
20:13:51 <timeless> weinig: this proposal doesn't include the security model
20:13:56 <timeless> ... for insuring that you want that push?
20:14:07 <mt_> mt_ has joined #webapps
20:14:08 <timeless> Shijun: the security model isn't included in that yet
20:14:24 <timeless> ... I'm sure within the WG people here, there are people interested in Security/UI/...
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20:14:39 <timeless> ... Here, we want to focus on Low latency, High reliability, High power efficiency
20:14:52 <timeless> israelh: The assumption we're making is that
20:14:59 <timeless> ... by the time you're going to deliver these messages
20:15:07 <timeless> ... the handshakes and correct permissions have happened at this point
20:15:12 <timeless> ... handshakes with servers
20:15:18 <timeless> ... client registration has been done
20:15:25 <timeless> weinig: doesn't that mean we should address them before?
20:15:30 <timeless> ... since they're pre-reqs
20:15:41 <timeless> Shijun: we recognize that it's an issue
20:15:59 <timeless> ... but the focus for us is to understand the scenario when the user makes a call/receives a call
20:16:09 <timeless> ... we're not trying to ignore/dismiss the other topics
20:16:12 <timeless> q?
20:16:20 <adrianba> q-
20:16:23 <timeless> q- adrianba
20:16:37 <timeless> [ Slide The Scenario: RTC call with push message ]
20:16:55 <timeless> Shijun: flows from app server to push server, push server to push client
20:16:58 <JonathanJ1> JonathanJ1 has joined #webapps
20:17:06 <timeless> ... push client to UA
20:17:12 <timeless> ... -- that's specific to the device
20:17:16 <timeless> ... it's implementation specific
20:17:27 <timeless> ... the next step is UA to Service Worker
20:17:38 <JonathanJ1> rrsagent, draft minutes
20:17:38 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/27-webapps-minutes.html JonathanJ1
20:17:39 <timeless> [ #4. UA dispatch the message ]
20:17:46 <timeless> s/#/Slide -- #/
20:17:58 <timeless> • Current option
20:17:58 <timeless> a. UA wakes up the service worker (SW) and dispatch the message to the SW
20:17:58 <timeless> b. SW processes the message
20:17:58 <timeless> c. SW displays a notification, and optionally renders a ringtone
20:17:58 <timeless> d. Upon user click, SW launches the webapp
20:18:19 <timeless> Shijun: that's our expectation -- the sound isn't defined, just an expectation
20:18:49 <timeless> • Questions
20:18:49 <timeless> 1. Latency – How much latency between “UA receives the message” and “SW
20:18:49 <timeless> displays a notification” to user?
20:18:49 <timeless> 2. Reliability – Can SW stay alive until user click? (issue #85)
20:18:49 <timeless> 3. Power Efficiency – Are long-living SWs a problem to the device? (issue #84)
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20:19:04 <timeless> Shijun: are we introducing latency beyond the network overhead
20:19:43 <slightlyoff> q+
20:19:44 <timeless> ... pause here for comments
20:19:58 <mounir> q?
20:20:01 <mounir> q+ johnme
20:20:09 <sicking> q+
20:20:13 <timeless> rniwa: without knowing details of the api
20:20:20 <timeless> ... keeping the SW alive doesn't seem possible
20:20:27 <timeless> ... i could have my pc at work alive for 48 hours
20:20:30 <timeless> ... and get 50 notifications
20:20:42 <timeless> ... there's no way i want 50 SWs running on my computer when i get back
20:20:42 <bryan_> q+
20:20:47 <timeless> ack slightlyoff
20:20:56 <timeless> slightlyoff: thanks for the detailed description of the process
20:21:07 <timeless> ... i think johnmellor-chrome will say the same
20:21:11 <timeless> ... SW is designed to be killable
20:21:16 <timeless> ... to get reliability back
20:21:29 <timeless> ... we'll pass a transparent structured data object to the SW
20:21:43 <song> song has joined #webapps
20:21:43 <timeless> ... the application sends data w/ the notification
20:21:53 <timeless> ... when the notification is clicked, the data can be returned to the SW
20:22:02 <mounir> ack johnme
20:22:04 <tantek> tantek has joined #webapps
20:22:04 <timeless> ... this gives power efficiency and data avialability
20:22:14 <timeless> s/avialability/availability/
20:22:24 <timeless> johnmellor-chrome: latency in Chrome/Nexus 5 is <50ms
20:22:31 <timeless> ... you receive a message in Java
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20:22:35 <timeless> ... it wakes up the browser
20:22:36 <slightlyoff> q+
20:22:38 <timeless> ... it wakes up a SW
20:22:43 <mounir> s/50ms/750ms/
20:22:46 <timeless> ... we think it's possible to optimize this a lot
20:22:49 <timeless> ack sicking
20:22:53 <timeless> sicking: we've found latency
20:23:03 <timeless> ... the most expensive piece is starting the relevant process
20:23:08 <timeless> ... starting a process to show a notification
20:23:12 <timeless> ... when the user clicks the notification
20:23:20 <timeless> ... we always need to start the related process
20:23:25 <timeless> ... that's the bottleneck
20:23:29 <timeless> ... -- in FirefoxOS
20:23:51 <timeless> ... it doesn't matter if we're starting a Worker or a UI
20:23:59 <timeless> ... when it comes to Phone calls
20:24:02 <chaa13> chaa13 has joined #webapps
20:24:03 <timeless> ... vs. a Chat thing
20:24:08 <timeless> ... you don't want to just display a notification
20:24:13 <timeless> ... you often want a full screen thing
20:24:16 <song_> song_ has joined #webapps
20:24:22 <timeless> ... you want a picture of the caller, and a yes / no button
20:24:28 <timeless> ... to display that, we need the full process
20:24:32 <timeless> q?
20:24:34 <timeless> ack bryan_
20:24:44 <timeless> bryan_: i'm assuming the question about latency will resolve itself
20:24:50 <timeless> ... based on experience w/ testing
20:24:51 <chaa13> q+ shujin
20:24:59 <timeless> ... i'm assuming SW will minimize startup time
20:25:12 <timeless> ... I assume a WebRTC app that you use for calling
20:25:16 <timeless> ... will need a long lived SW
20:25:23 <sicking> q+
20:25:30 <timeless> ... but we need to optimize this so the response to the incoming event is minimal
20:25:42 <timeless> ... the thing that receives the event could be a call app ui
20:25:54 <timeless> ... to the extent that this is dependent on browser technology
20:25:55 <timeless> ack slightlyoff
20:26:00 <timeless> slightlyoff: your 8s window target
20:26:06 <timeless> ... -> shujin
20:26:10 <timeless> ... what does that include?
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20:26:28 <timeless> [ Slide #4-a. Alternative option ]
20:26:39 <timeless> shujin: the end to end latency
20:26:44 <timeless> ... from server to device
20:26:49 <timeless> ... and coming back with confirmation
20:26:54 <timeless> ... 65% <1s
20:27:12 <timeless> ... for the app to launch the background process is pretty fast
20:27:20 <timeless> q?
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20:27:39 <timeless> ack sh
20:27:40 <timeless> ack sicking
20:27:48 <timeless> sicking: we have System Messages, which are like SW
20:27:54 <timeless> ... we found that works really really well
20:28:06 <timeless> ... we have yet to find an instance where we need to keep an application running in the background
20:28:16 <timeless> ... we find additional events to wake the application
20:28:24 <timeless> ... if an app wants to poll, it can use a scheduler
20:28:31 <timeless> ... for online, we can use notices
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20:28:43 <timeless> ... for incoming messages when the device is off
20:28:51 <timeless> ... we can have a startup message and deliver the messages
20:29:10 <timeless> ... we haven't found a case where we need long running background
20:29:16 <timeless> slightlyoff: did you have 85/95% numbers?
20:29:21 <timeless> shujin: no
20:29:29 <timeless> ... our experience isn't browser specific
20:29:36 <timeless> [ Slide #4-a. Alternative option ]
20:29:56 <timeless> • Proposal
20:29:56 <timeless> a. The push client wakes up a lightweight independent background process and pass the message to
20:29:56 <timeless> it
20:29:56 <timeless> • The background process can be developed by browser implementers
20:29:56 <timeless> • This process only handles push messages
20:29:56 <timeless> • The push client automatically wakes up this process when needed
20:29:56 <timeless> b. The background process parses the message property to identify predefined action(s)
20:29:56 <timeless> • The process only executes a small set of predefined actions: display notification, play ringtone
20:29:57 <timeless> • PushRegistraiton can be registered with the predefined action(s)
20:29:57 <timeless> c. If predefined actions are identified, the background process displays a notification, and optionally
20:29:57 <timeless> renders a preloaded ringtone
20:29:57 <timeless> d. Upon user click, the background process launches the UA which in turn forwards the push
20:29:57 <timeless> message to either a webapp or a SW
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20:31:38 <slightlyoff> q+
20:31:47 <MikeSmith> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2014OctDec/att-0283/RTC_and_Push_scenario.pdf "Scenario analysis: RTC call with push message" slides from Shijun
20:31:58 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
20:31:58 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/27-webapps-minutes.html MikeSmith
20:32:00 <timeless> shujin: the background process is an extension of the push client
20:32:25 <chaals> ack sl
20:32:28 <timeless> ... that's the solution we see, which could be more friendly for mobile devices
20:32:30 <mounir> q?
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20:32:44 <timeless> slightlyoff: what is the memory/cpu cost of the persistent background process?
20:32:58 <timeless> ... we've found we're middle of the pack for Chrome for push messages (cpu/memory)
20:33:07 <timeless> ... vs. gmail/facebook
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20:33:25 <sicking> q+
20:33:35 <timeless> shujin: i don't have the numbers handy, but i can give the numbers to the ML
20:33:40 <MikeSmith> i/Slide 2/-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2014OctDec/att-0283/RTC_and_Push_scenario.pdf "Scenario analysis: RTC call with push message" slides from Shijun
20:33:45 <mt_> q+
20:33:46 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
20:33:46 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/27-webapps-minutes.html MikeSmith
20:33:48 <slightlyoff> q+
20:33:57 <timeless> ... this is what is recommended to Windows apps
20:34:25 <timeless> ... for push message in Windows, >99% of the messages are processed by the background process
20:34:42 <timeless> ... IE is considered by Windows as an application
20:34:48 <timeless> ... and it should have a separate background process
20:34:51 <timeless> ack sicking
20:34:59 <timeless> sicking: i think that's the model that the spec is proposing
20:35:10 <timeless> ... except that, the background process is the SW
20:35:18 <timeless> ... i think what jake is proposing, is
20:35:27 <timeless> ... in what instances do you only want to display a notification/ringtone
20:35:36 <johnmellor-chrome> q+
20:35:39 <timeless> ... if you're playing a ringtone, you also want to render an onscreen ui
20:35:55 <johnmellor-chrome> q-
20:36:01 <mounir> q+
20:36:01 <timeless> ... if you're displaying something, you might want to download data
20:36:20 <timeless> shujin: analogy, each website as an independent app
20:36:32 <timeless> ... from the User perspective, each website might want to tailor the experience
20:36:49 <timeless> ... but based on the ML discussion, there's a tradeoff between how long you can keep a SW alive
20:36:56 <timeless> ... and how much can be done in a SW
20:37:04 <timeless> ... what we're proposing
20:37:12 <timeless> ... IE has a special background SW
20:37:18 <timeless> ack mt_
20:37:26 <timeless> mt_: (Martin Thomson)
20:37:35 <timeless> ... what you're asking for is something faster than the XX ms
20:37:44 <timeless> ... i don't think this requires more than a lightweight process
20:37:54 <timeless> ... an SW spins up whatever is necessary to run the js in the SW
20:38:03 <timeless> ... a very lightweight process that handles the notification, handles it
20:38:07 <weinig> q+
20:38:10 <timeless> ... if that requires launching the rendering engine
20:38:16 <timeless> ... it invokes the API for that, to get that
20:38:23 <timeless> ... i don't see that's a problem
20:38:31 <timeless> ... I see an opportunity for the OS
20:38:43 <timeless> ... for the lightweight process to be able to handle the notification w/o starting a SW
20:38:54 <timeless> ... a message comes down, immediately rendered into the notification window
20:39:13 <weinig> q-
20:39:14 <timeless> ... maybe we can provide a way to say that certain messages can become a notification directly
20:39:17 <mounir> ack slightlyoff
20:39:17 <timeless> ack slightlyoff
20:39:27 <timeless> slightlyoff: in SW, we note where we don't know what we don't know
20:39:37 <timeless> ... where app-cache failed
20:39:57 <timeless> ... we have this because we don't have a good track record of doing that
20:40:02 <timeless> ... i caution us to use data
20:40:13 <timeless> ... 750ms is the full time w/ Chrome + background process
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20:40:27 <timeless> ... the entire world of optimizing is several quarters forward
20:40:34 <timeless> ... we think there's a huge ramp of oportunities
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20:40:43 <timeless> ... i'd like us to prefer generality over specific cases
20:40:53 <timeless> ... if there's specific evidence for the relative weight
20:41:02 <timeless> ... if you have credible evidence
20:41:10 <timeless> ... i'd like to caution us on specifics w/o data
20:41:19 <timeless> mounir: the push team at Google when we designed the Push API
20:41:26 <timeless> ... we thought about a specific API for notifications
20:41:31 <timeless> ... for the reason sicking noted
20:41:38 <timeless> ... a lot of sites will have different needs
20:41:47 <timeless> ... as noted earlier, we could make that optimization later
20:41:57 <timeless> ... offering faster
20:42:05 <timeless> ... unlike app-cache (not working)
20:42:14 <timeless> israelh: maybe the paradigms that we're looking at
20:42:23 <timeless> ... from our perspective, we wanted a common paradigm
20:42:30 <timeless> ... we wanted very little you could customize
20:42:40 <timeless> ... maybe the various more powerful rendering experiences we didn't want
20:42:47 <timeless> ... we wanted a more cohesive experience
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20:43:04 <timeless> ... our model is how we've been doing it since Windows 8 (3 years)
20:43:14 <timeless> ... we need to give you the specifics, i agree
20:43:17 <johnmellor-chrome> q+
20:43:25 <timeless> ... this subprocess we're describing is very specialized
20:43:27 <timeless> ... only for push
20:43:34 <timeless> ... we didn't need to enable more
20:43:46 <timeless> ... that we'll have the UA in control
20:43:54 <timeless> ... allow the SW that are instantiated to get the message
20:43:56 <mt_> I think that perhaps slightlyoff is casting this in the wrong light: SW *is* a lightweight process in a sense, but it just gets forced to be idle if it isn't dealing with an event
20:44:00 <timeless> ... we aren't saying it isn't a good thing
20:44:12 <timeless> ... offering an intermediary that's sort of lightweight
20:44:17 <timeless> ack mounir
20:44:23 <timeless> mounir: with your process
20:44:27 <timeless> ... if i want to update my database
20:44:30 <timeless> ... say i have a tutor client
20:44:34 <timeless> ... i get a message
20:44:37 <timeless> ... i don't click on it
20:44:40 <timeless> ... i go offline
20:44:44 <timeless> ... the app can't save that?
20:44:51 <timeless> israelh: there are different types of pushes
20:44:55 <timeless> ... some are raw data type
20:45:04 <timeless> ... which potentially push to the app running behind the scenes
20:45:10 <timeless> ... that gets the registered events
20:45:25 <timeless> shujin: in our case, the push message is the raw format
20:45:32 <timeless> ... in comparison to the windows messages
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20:45:52 <timeless> ... we're talking about letting the developers choose simple/lightweight or not
20:45:59 <timeless> ... giving the developer more power, from a different perspective
20:46:08 <timeless> mounir: you're making an early assumption
20:46:12 <chaals> q+ dan
20:46:16 <timeless> ... that developers get a push message, and show a notification
20:46:19 <mt_> q+
20:46:36 <timeless> ... many times the developer might get data, and show the notification later
20:46:46 <timeless> shujin: i agree we shouldn't remove that from the developer
20:47:03 <timeless> ... if the message has enough information that the developer can do without predefined actions, that's still available
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20:47:10 <timeless> ... when SW is run on different devices
20:47:18 <timeless> ... whether a SW can complete is another question
20:47:29 <timeless> ... whether to enable a rich experience, somehow we might not be able to guarantee
20:47:32 <timeless> ack johnmellor-chrome
20:47:42 <timeless> johnmellor-chrome: the standard thing is notifications
20:47:48 <timeless> ... when i look at a native app
20:47:56 <timeless> ... if an app is in the foreground, it usually won't show a notification
20:48:09 <timeless> ... some apps will only show notifications if you aren't looking at inbox
20:48:16 <timeless> ... some apps will download content
20:48:22 <timeless> ... gmail might get data
20:48:32 <timeless> ... but only show information if you've configured labels that match the data
20:48:40 <timeless> ... you could imagine location specific decisions
20:48:44 <timeless> q?
20:48:46 <timeless> ack dan
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20:49:04 <mounir> q+
20:49:04 <timeless> ddruta: i think it would be useful if the push could go to different UAs
20:49:21 <timeless> ack mt_
20:49:35 <mounir> q-
20:49:37 <timeless> shujin: the push client is an OS component
20:49:41 <timeless> q+ mt_
20:49:50 <timeless> ... apps can implement their own SWs
20:49:58 <timeless> ack mt_
20:50:07 <timeless> mt_: i think we're reaching the saturation point
20:50:15 <timeless> ... a lot of the pushback is around the optimizations MS made
20:50:22 <timeless> ... people aren't seeing strong justification for doing
20:50:31 <timeless> ... that's what I got from slightlyoff , that's what i got from johnmellor-chrome
20:50:37 <timeless> q+ timeless
20:50:50 <timeless> ... i think you should go back to the people at MS and ask why they put in the shortcuts
20:50:59 <timeless> ... something more generic would be useful here
20:51:04 <timeless> ... we could make this optimization available
20:51:08 <timeless> ... but there are costs involved
20:51:13 <timeless> ... with the api as structured
20:51:16 <chaals> scribe: chaals
20:51:18 <timeless> ... those costs are significant
20:51:40 <chaals> Timeless: They wanted to enforce a consistent UI. (Answering MT_)
20:52:02 <chaals> … every time the userhas a similar thing, in a different client, they want it to look the same. (This is what Shujin said)
20:52:11 <chaals> … as a user, I support that goal.
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20:52:38 <timeless> scribe: timeless
20:52:45 <timeless> israelh: as you get a flurry of notifications
20:52:50 <timeless> ... the client can synthesize those
20:52:56 <timeless> ... it can buffer those notifications together
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20:53:01 <timeless> s/Timeless/timeless/
20:53:10 <timeless> ... I don't think we're saying that the model shouldn't support SW
20:53:13 <timeless> ... that isn't what we're saying
20:53:25 <timeless> ... what we're saying, what others are calling optimizations
20:53:38 <timeless> ... we'd like to see a mechanism where those optimizations are allowed, enabled, encouraged
20:53:44 <timeless> ... as opposed to no, it has to be this other way
20:53:55 <timeless> mounir: could we keep that door open for a v2 api?
20:54:00 <timeless> ... as opposed to v1
20:54:11 <timeless> israelh: we were under the impression that the Push API was still early enough
20:54:15 <timeless> ... that we could make those comments
20:54:21 <timeless> ... if we think we're at LC for Push
20:54:29 <timeless> mounir: i don't think it's an API maturity
20:54:38 <timeless> ... i think it's a developer feedback issue
20:54:53 <forty4> forty4 has joined #webapps
20:54:59 <sicking> q+
20:55:03 <timeless> q-
20:55:08 <timeless> kenji: as the PM for the team implementing SW
20:55:14 <timeless> ... if you can provide developer feedback to explain why
20:55:19 <timeless> ... that's good feedback for us as well
20:55:37 <timeless> shujin: would it be helpful if we could propose an API?
20:55:45 <timeless> ... put on the ML for discussion?
20:55:55 <timeless> ... and then discuss for current spec
20:56:06 <timeless> sicking: one way to get implementation/developer feedback right now
20:56:09 <timeless> ... is looking at existing apps
20:56:12 <alia> alia has joined #webapps
20:56:15 <timeless> ... do existing apps
20:56:25 <timeless> ... where the only thing they do is play a ringer/display a notification
20:56:31 <timeless> ... we know twitter only displays a notification
20:56:38 <timeless> ... but when you click it, you might not see the tweet
20:56:42 <timeless> ... provide UCs
20:56:43 <Zakim> +arunranga
20:56:48 <timeless> q+ timeless to point to BB10 apps
20:56:57 <timeless> shujin: we can go back and collect the data
20:56:57 <arunranga> Zakim, mute me
20:56:57 <Zakim> arunranga should now be muted
20:57:00 <timeless> ack sicking
20:57:21 <chaals> q+
20:57:27 <chaals> ack ti
20:57:27 <Zakim> timeless, you wanted to point to BB10 apps
20:58:08 <forty41> forty41 has joined #webapps
20:58:46 <timeless> ack timeless
20:58:49 <schuki> timeless: use case for blackberry is normal things, you can send push notifications, we had categories and common apps fit into these categories
20:58:49 <schuki> ... for most of these things it worked well
20:58:49 <schuki> ... some thingdid drain battery, but most didn't
20:59:01 <timeless> chaals: would people like to see an api?
20:59:05 <timeless> [ a number of hands for yes ]
20:59:11 <timeless> chaals: or would people like to see data?
20:59:19 <timeless> sicking: i'd like to see data?
20:59:23 <timeless> weinig: what data?
20:59:26 <Hyunjin> Hyunjin has joined #webapps
20:59:31 <timeless> chaals: would people like to see UCs?
20:59:32 <hiroto__> hiroto__ has joined #webapps
20:59:36 <timeless> weinig: i would
20:59:44 <timeless> israelh: a quick clarification on UCs
20:59:49 <kurosawa> kurosawa has joined #webapps
20:59:53 <timeless> ... how much more detailed on UCs do you want to see?
20:59:59 <timeless> ... for example Twitter, Facebook, Email client
21:00:08 <timeless> ... the UCs are fairly common
21:00:16 <timeless> ... what granularity are you looking for?
21:00:21 <timeless> sicking: those UCs need to come w/ numbers
21:00:32 <forty41> forty41 has joined #webapps
21:00:33 <timeless> ... if you show Email clients only show notification w/o fetching data
21:00:38 <timeless> israelh: if you want only numbers
21:00:44 <timeless> ... perhaps i can give you just numbers
21:00:52 <timeless> ... these types of apps do these types of things
21:01:01 <timeless> ... our Store app shows notifications when it finishes updating/downloading
21:01:14 <timeless> ... shows notifications for new apps/updates available
21:01:20 <timeless> ... popular apps w/ this type of behavior
21:01:33 <timeless> s/schuki/scribe/
21:01:33 <timeless> s/schuki/scribe/
21:01:34 <timeless> s/schuki/scribe/
21:01:49 <timeless> weinig: in terms of UCs, I think we heard a lot of UCs here
21:01:57 <timeless> ... it would be good if you came with a specific list
21:02:00 <mounir> s/sicking: those UCs need to come/mounir: those UCs need to come/
21:02:15 <timeless> ... and then to slightlyoff, indicate which UCs go with which patterns
21:02:32 <timeless> q?
21:02:40 <timeless> israelh: we can work with that
21:02:41 <timeless> ack chaals
21:02:44 <timeless> chaals: thank you, we're done
21:02:56 <timeless> s/thank you, we're done/we're done, thank you/
21:03:18 <glenn> glenn has joined #webapps
21:03:21 <timeless> bryan_: in the last month, there were a number of issues raised to github
21:03:29 <timeless> ... a number have reached consensus
21:03:39 <timeless> ... a number have engendered discussion
21:03:56 <timeless> ArtB: we have a lot of holes in tomorrow's agenda
21:04:00 <timeless> ... if you want to use slots
21:04:05 <timeless> bryan_: yeah
21:04:28 <timeless> chaals: the 11-3pm overlaps with AC
21:04:44 <mt_> I'd like to get any decision on the agenda change promptly
21:04:49 <bryan_> I suggest we update the wiki with the "lightweight / low latency" use cases
21:05:03 <timeless> weinig: is there a place where the workflow for clients can be seen?
21:05:09 <timeless> ... i looked at the slidedeck
21:05:17 <fjh> fjh has joined #webapps
21:05:19 <timeless> weinig: "client" = "web site author"
21:05:36 <timeless> mounir: client registers for push, you get server+registration id
21:05:41 <fjh> fjh has joined #webapps
21:05:44 <rubys> rubys has joined #webapps
21:05:44 <timeless> ... developer sends that from client to its own server
21:05:51 <timeless> ... which then talks to the server w/ the registration id
21:05:52 <fjh> fjh has joined #webapps
21:05:56 <timeless> ... apple has its own push server
21:06:02 <timeless> weinig: if a client wants to use push notifications
21:06:14 <timeless> ... they need separate agreements w/ each vendor?
21:06:17 <timeless> [ YES ]
21:06:20 <sicking> q+
21:06:32 <timeless> mounir: there's a separate discussion in IETF to standardize that
21:06:40 <timeless> topic: File API
21:06:42 <schuki> scribenick: schuki
21:06:51 <timeless> scribe: schuki
21:06:55 <arunranga> Zakim, unmute me
21:06:55 <Zakim> arunranga should no longer be muted
21:06:59 <schuki> sicking:
21:07:04 <timeless> s/sicking://
21:07:18 <schuki> arunranga: file api can go to LC
21:07:22 <glenn_> glenn_ has joined #webapps
21:07:23 <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
21:07:23 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/27-webapps-minutes.html timeless
21:07:33 <schuki> ... whenever the publishing ??? is lifted
21:07:53 <schuki> ... we also want to talk about file system api
21:08:01 <MikeSmith> s/???/moratorium
21:08:17 <schuki> ArtB: i am displaying the bugs for file api
21:08:22 <schuki> ... we can go to LC with thia
21:08:28 <schuki> s/thia/this
21:08:32 <timeless> s/... we've tried to harmonise/Travis: we've tried to harmonise/
21:08:37 <schuki> ArtB: does anyone have issues with this?
21:08:50 <ArtB> -> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?component=File%20API&list_id=46243&product=WebAppsWG&resolution=--- File API Bugs
21:09:03 <schuki> sicking: if we mark style lists and remove later
21:09:10 <timeless> s/style lists/file lists/
21:09:12 <Zakim> - +44.207.346.aaee
21:09:20 <timeless> s/and (as at risk) and/
21:09:26 <timeless> s|s/and (as at risk) and/||
21:09:30 <timeless> s/and/ (as at risk) and/
21:09:37 <schuki> sicking: it's a matter of doing a pull request on the spec
21:09:37 <schuki> ... so we should just mark it at risk
21:09:43 <schuki> ... and then do the rest
21:09:43 <plh> q+
21:09:47 <kbx> kbx has joined #webapps
21:09:49 <plh> ack sick
21:09:51 <ArtB> ACTION: Arun mark file list as Feature @ Risk
21:09:51 <trackbot> Created ACTION-748 - Mark file list as feature @ risk [on Arun Ranganathan - due 2014-11-03].
21:09:54 <schuki> paulc:
21:09:54 <Zakim> -johnmellor-chrome
21:10:00 <timeless> s/paulc://
21:11:10 <Hyunjin_> Hyunjin_ has joined #webapps
21:11:10 <weinig> +q
21:11:16 <timeless> s/+q/q+/
21:11:21 <ArtB> ACTION: barstow start a CfC to publish File API LCWD
21:11:22 <trackbot> Created ACTION-749 - Start a cfc to publish file api lcwd [on Arthur Barstow - due 2014-11-03].
21:11:25 <gludi|3> gludi|3 has joined #webapps
21:11:28 <schuki> sicking: it has been at LC, may be brought back before then
21:11:29 <MikeSmith> q?
21:11:39 <schuki> q?
21:11:43 <anssik> http://www.w3.org/standards/history/fileapi
21:11:47 <schuki> ack plh
21:12:09 <schuki> plh: which webapp will be break if we remove file list
21:12:17 <schuki> sicking: hopefully none
21:12:17 <schuki> ack weinig
21:12:28 <schuki> weinig: file writing was removed at some point?
21:12:30 <Zefa> Zefa has joined #webapps
21:12:32 <schuki> sicking: no was always in file system
21:12:42 <schuki> weinig: so file saving is in file system?
21:12:42 <schuki> sicking: yup
21:13:05 <schuki> arunranga: you can trigger a file save path
21:13:28 <schuki> ... this was probably the specs put forward by google
21:13:28 <schuki> ... file system then diverged
21:13:32 <schuki> ... this google spec has become a note
21:13:36 <timeless> s/agenda requests/Topic: agenda requests/
21:13:44 <schuki> chaals: so yes, this is what file system does
21:13:52 <schuki> chaals: q about file api
21:13:54 <schuki> q?
21:14:39 <schuki> arunranga: requirement is file save as
21:14:43 <ArtB> -> http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/FileAPI/#requirements File API UCs and Requirements
21:14:52 <schuki> chaals: says no, as file save as can't be met
21:15:03 <timeless> s/Clipboard events/Topic: Pub-Status: Clipboard events/
21:15:18 <schuki> sicking: at best this statement is ambigous
21:15:19 <timeless> s/DOM Level 3 Event/Topic: Pub-Status: DOM Level 3 Event/
21:15:29 <schuki> chaals: so you're not meeting the requirement?
21:15:33 <schuki> sicking: that's right
21:15:42 <schuki> topic: file system
21:15:45 <ArtB> ACTION: Arun deleted the UC in File API that starts with "Data should be able to be stored ..."
21:15:45 <trackbot> Created ACTION-750 - Deleted the uc in file api that starts with "data should be able to be stored ..." [on Arun Ranganathan - due 2014-11-03].
21:15:49 <timeless> s|https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/d4e/raw-file/tip/source_respec.htm -> UI Events ED|-> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/d4e/raw-file/tip/source_respec.htm UI Events ED|
21:16:02 <MichaelC> MichaelC has joined #webapps
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21:16:08 <schuki> arunranga: so, the room agrees requirement should be removed?
21:16:08 <schuki> chaals: yes
21:16:12 <schuki> topic: file system
21:16:18 <timeless> s/UI Events/Topic: Pub-Status: UI Events/
21:16:23 <arunranga> http://w3c.github.io/filesystem-api/Overview.html
21:16:30 <kurosawa> kurosawa has joined #webapps
21:16:31 <rubys> rubys has left #webapps
21:16:32 <schuki> arunranga: file system api link ^
21:16:32 <schuki> ... editors draft
21:16:57 <schuki> arunranga: this  file system api build on model put forth by google but uses promises not callbacks
21:16:58 <timeless> s/anything about the key specs/Topic: Pub-Status: DOM3 key specs/
21:17:19 <schuki> ... there are some things we want to preserve, url
21:17:38 <schuki> ... this spec also relies on platform primatives: event stream e.g.
21:17:39 <timeless> s|https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/tree/master/html/syntax -> DOM P&S tests|-> https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/tree/master/html/syntax DOM P&S tests|
21:17:53 <schuki> ... we will follow some ideas in posix, we have some ability to write also
21:18:02 <timeless> s|https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/labels/dom-parsing -> DOM P&S test open issues|-> https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/labels/dom-parsing DOM P&S test open issues|
21:18:50 <timeless> s/Travis: DOM-PS/Topic: Pub-Status: DOM-PS/
21:19:02 <timeless> RRSAgent, draft mintues
21:19:02 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'draft mintues', timeless.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
21:19:05 <schuki> ... there is the file handle and writable file handle
21:19:05 <schuki> ... we want feedback from implementers
21:19:05 <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
21:19:05 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/27-webapps-minutes.html timeless
21:20:08 <timeless> i/are you going to do anything with innerText/Topic: innerText/
21:20:48 <timeless> i/chaals: Moving on to FileAPI/Topic: Pub-Status: FileAPI/
21:20:58 <timeless> scribe: timeless
21:21:08 <timeless> israelh: ... say i keep something open
21:21:19 <timeless> ... allow my writes to prevail
21:21:27 <timeless> ... it doesn't seem to be as analogous as indexeddb
21:21:36 <timeless> ... because you can't necessarily add transactions
21:21:44 <schuki> sicking: would be good to here microsft comments
21:21:44 <schuki> israelh: we are thinking of the model of keeping something open
21:21:48 <schuki> sicking: typically there's never multiple users touching a file
21:21:52 <schuki> ... because they're sandboxed
21:21:55 <timeless> i/sicking: would/scribe: schuki/
21:22:08 <schuki> ... storage policy for filesystem is no difference between indexeddb and sql
21:22:16 <chaals> q+
21:22:18 <timeless> i/.. FullScreen/Topic: Pub-Status: FullScreen/
21:22:43 <schuki> sicking: you could implement file system api on top of indexeddb with some issues, and no file system url working
21:22:49 <timeless> i/chaals: Gamepad./Topic: Pub-Status: Gamepad/
21:22:50 <schuki> ... then it;s a differen api
21:22:56 <timeless> s/it;s/it's/
21:23:01 <timeless> s/differen/different/
21:23:02 <jmhyeon_> jmhyeon_ has joined #webapps
21:23:02 <schuki> ... actual storage policy is same as indexeddb
21:23:11 <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
21:23:11 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/27-webapps-minutes.html timeless
21:23:22 <schuki> israelh: i thought there was a notion that you could break out of sandox
21:23:54 <schuki> arunranga: i can see how that could have come from discussion of use case
21:24:02 <schuki> ... this use case is a "nice to have"
21:24:07 <jmhyeon_> jmhyeon_ has joined #webapps
21:24:07 <schuki> ... we want to focus on sandbox major
21:24:17 <timeless> i/sicking: I'm not sure what's blocking/Topic: Pub-Status: IndexedDB/
21:24:23 <schuki> ... if this use case is misleading we will abandon
21:24:47 <schuki> arunranga: bigger use case of breaking out does not seem credible
21:24:52 <schuki> sicking: i agree
21:24:58 <schuki> ack chaals
21:25:07 <schuki> q+ chaals
21:25:09 <timeless> s|http://www.w3c-test.org/IndexedDB/interfaces.html -> IDB interfaces Web IDL|-> http://www.w3c-test.org/IndexedDB/interfaces.html IDB interfaces Web IDL|
21:25:37 <schuki> israelh: why not enbale with log file? People are used to this
21:25:43 <timeless> i/IDB interfaces Web IDL/Topic: IndexedDB + Web IDL/
21:26:22 <schuki> sicking: you could easily create dead locks
21:26:23 <schuki> s/logs/locks
21:26:35 <kurosawa> kurosawa has joined #webapps
21:26:38 <timeless> s/chaals: IME/Topic: Pub-Status: IME/
21:26:42 <schuki> sicking: the problem is if you open pages, one that opens file a, then file b, then does stuff with either
21:26:50 <schuki> ... then you have another sub component that opens file b
21:26:57 <schuki> ... then dead lock - this isn't good
21:27:12 <schuki> israelh: so if you surface dead locks to the applications, then you can manage them
21:27:16 <timeless> s/chaals: OK. Moving to PointerLock/Topic: Pub-Status: PointerLock/
21:27:18 <schuki> ... we could provide mechanisms to handle them
21:27:25 <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
21:27:25 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/27-webapps-minutes.html timeless
21:27:33 <schuki> ... more intuitively than indexeddb
21:27:42 <schuki> sicking: it could cause race conditions then
21:27:45 <timeless> [ laughter ]
21:27:48 <timeless> s/timeless/scribe/
21:28:03 <schuki> israelh: so then the complexity of programming increases
21:28:14 <schuki> sicking: complexity is a complicated thing
21:28:27 <schuki> ... you do need to open the file open, but then no need to deal with dead locks
21:28:47 <schuki> ... is it simpler to have things like they are now, or open the files in order always?
21:28:52 <schuki> ... seems like no good solutions
21:29:17 <schuki> sicking: still interested in microsoft implementation status
21:29:22 <schuki> israelh: we're looking at it
21:29:23 <schuki> ack chaals
21:29:34 <arunranga> israelh, great :)
21:29:39 <schuki> chaals: arunranga you said use case of having files is not credible
21:29:48 <schuki> ... want to build on sandoxed system of indexeddb
21:30:04 <schuki> ... is this a solution looking for a problem?
21:30:04 <ArtB> ACTION: Yves followup with Cameron re PR 27 and the Web IDL test suite
21:30:05 <trackbot> Created ACTION-751 - Followup with cameron re pr 27 and the web idl test suite [on Yves Lafon - due 2014-11-03].
21:30:49 <schuki> chaals: what are the barriers (if can build security system that could work) to using the file system api to handle access from multiple apps to same file?
21:30:50 <sicking> q+
21:31:08 <schuki> ... has something been built that cannot handle multiple access?
21:31:10 <schuki> ack sicking
21:31:30 <timeless> i/chaals: Quota Management?/Topic: Pub-Status: Quota Management/
21:31:39 <schuki> sicking: there is nothing inherent with files which makes them more interesting to share than with things such as indexeddb
21:31:57 <schuki> ... firefoxos is doing something, but for security reasons this wouldn't work for web
21:32:16 <timeless> i/... Server-Sent Events/Topic: Pub-Status: Server-Sent Events/
21:32:23 <schuki> chaals: there are use cases when apps would want to work on the same files
21:33:09 <schuki> weinig: from apple perspective: osx is file coordination system, you're only allowed to do something in a block
21:33:27 <schuki> ... you can use filehandle to do stuff
21:33:36 <timeless> s/... WebIDL/Topic: Pub-Status: WebIDL/
21:33:38 <schuki> ... user has to give access to all files on ios
21:33:58 <schuki> sicking: we have multiple solutions for firefoxos, in every case user must make decisions
21:34:11 <timeless> s/... Web Components?/Topic: Pub-Status: Web Components/
21:34:16 <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
21:34:16 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/27-webapps-minutes.html timeless
21:34:33 <schuki> chaals: question remains: is there something in file system that could break multi user problem?
21:34:42 <schuki> sicking: no, we just need to solve the security problems
21:35:11 <timeless> s|http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2014OctDec/0248.html -> Custom Elements status from Dimitri 2014-Oct-24|-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2014OctDec/0248.html Custom Elements status from Dimitri 2014-Oct-24|
21:35:28 <schuki> weinig: same q as before: how does using this api trigger an explicity save somewhere else?
21:35:32 <schuki> sicking: open write
21:35:33 <timeless> s|http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2014OctDec/0249.html -> HTML Imports status report frm Hajime on 2014-Oct-24|-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2014OctDec/0249.html HTML Imports status report frm Hajime on 2014-Oct-24|
21:35:43 <schuki> sicking: there's nothing to trigger save dialogue
21:35:52 <schuki> weinig: this seems to be a major pain point
21:36:06 <timeless> s|http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2014OctDec/0222.html -> Shadow DOM status report from Hayato on 2014-Oct-23|-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2014OctDec/0222.html Shadow DOM status report from Hayato on 2014-Oct-23|
21:36:30 <arunranga> q+
21:36:52 <schuki> sicking: file saver api could be used, with progress saver events
21:36:54 <adrianba> q+
21:36:59 <timeless> q+ to ask if anyone has actually *used* that approach (href=blob:, download=) ? or + sending a click to that
21:37:22 <schuki> ack arunranga
21:37:31 <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
21:37:31 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/27-webapps-minutes.html timeless
21:37:42 <schuki> arunranga: you can request the save as and trigger the dialogue
21:37:52 <schuki> ... this file system api allows write to sandox file system
21:38:08 <schuki> ... is there a req to do something more to prompt user interaction?
21:38:20 <schuki> schuki: earlier sicking mentioned could use download attr on anchor tag
21:38:42 <schuki> weinig: no, was just confused!
21:38:51 <timeless> s|http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2014OctDec/0213.html -> Tantek's proposal re Fullscreen API|-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2014OctDec/0213.html Tantek's proposal re Fullscreen API|
21:38:52 <schuki> q?
21:39:05 <ArtB> zakim, who's here?
21:39:05 <Zakim> On the phone I see Portland, lgombos, Olli_Pettay, anssik, arunranga
21:39:07 <Zakim> Portland has timeless
21:39:07 <Zakim> On IRC I see kurosawa, jmhyeon_, stone, MichaelC, Zefa, gludi|3, kbx, glenn_, fjh, forty41, hiroto__, alia, jrossi, shepazu, tomoyuki, jcraig, bkardell_, wooglae, Jun_MA, darobin,
21:39:07 <Zakim> ... JonathanJ1, chaa13, youngwoojo, tantek, song, chaals, miterho, mt_, plh, kenneth_, sicking, zcorpan, adrianba, a1zu, waynecarr, kusakak, hjlee, Claes, marcosc, spoussa,
21:39:09 <Zakim> ... myakura, rniwa, ArtB, israelh, notbenjamin, alan-i, weinig, benjamp, hiroki, arunranga, hallvors, plinss, anssik, bryan_, smaug, jungkees, RRSAgent, Zakim, lgombos, marcosc_,
21:39:09 <Zakim> ... kochi1
21:39:19 <schuki> arunranga: we would like feedback from apple
21:39:24 <schuki> ack adrianba
21:40:12 <schuki> adrianba: [1] save case is independant from file system api
21:40:44 <schuki> ... we want something more than anchor tag
21:40:46 <timeless> s/independant/independent/
21:40:53 <schuki> ... we made proposal previously
21:41:02 <timeless> s/[1]/1)/
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21:41:23 <schuki> ... proposal was you may have a offline app, an online app, so want to simulate a local application simulation dialogue
21:41:37 <schuki> ... therefore a number os use cases exist for saving scenario
21:41:39 <schuki> ... need to revisit
21:41:41 <timeless> ack me
21:41:41 <Zakim> timeless, you wanted to ask if anyone has actually *used* that approach (href=blob:, download=) ? or + sending a click to that
21:41:43 <schuki> ack timeless
21:41:44 <schuki> ?
21:42:33 <anssik> FWIW, here's my demo <a download> w/ .click(): http://anssiko.github.io/html-media-capture/capture-and-download.html
21:42:39 <schuki> timeless: do people do the flow of anchor tag with blob and download attr?
21:42:48 <schuki> sicking: i think gmail does it but not sure
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21:43:32 <schuki> weinig: could non normatively reference in one of the api specs so other people don't get confused
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21:43:53 <arunranga> weinig, I will take an action to do this
21:44:18 <weinig> thanks arunranga!
21:44:19 <schuki> darobin: could use a json trick but could create a massive json file to pull down
21:44:34 <timeless> timeless: +1 to weinig's suggestion
21:44:49 <schuki> ArtB: coffee break
21:44:52 <schuki> ... no coffee
21:44:57 <schuki> ... not here till 3
21:45:02 <schuki> ... actually 5 mins away
21:45:17 <schuki> ... let's start straight after 3
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21:45:28 <schuki> [break: return at just after 3pm]
21:46:07 <schuki> sicking: arunranga is working on some edits to file system
21:46:15 <arunranga> q+ to say I will work towards FPWD
21:46:23 <schuki> sicking: apart from that, given microsoft is maybe interested then we should move forward
21:46:37 <schuki> ArtB: arunranga do some edits, let me know, and we'll go for workiong draft
21:46:57 <timeless> ACTION arun to do edits on file system spec
21:46:57 <trackbot> Created ACTION-752 - Do edits on file system spec [on Arun Ranganathan - due 2014-11-03].
21:47:02 <schuki> arunranga: we can take some discussions to mailing list
21:47:10 <timeless> s/workiong/working/
21:47:37 <schuki> jungkees: service worker cfc ok?
21:47:42 <schuki> ArtB: yes go ahead
21:47:45 <timeless> s|https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/streams-api/raw-file/tip/Overview.htm">https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/streams-api/raw-file/tip/Overview.htm -> Streams API W3C Editor's Draft |XXXscribeERROR|
21:47:50 <arunranga> Zakim, mute me
21:47:50 <Zakim> arunranga should now be muted
21:47:51 <sicking> arunranga, might be worth adding that to the File API. We could even replace the current "save to disk" use case with a informative note that says that the spec supports it in collaboration with the HTML download attribute
21:47:52 <schuki> [break: return at just after 3pm]
21:48:03 <timeless> s|-> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/streams-api/raw-file/tip/Overview.htm Streams API W3C Editor's Draft|ZZZ|
21:48:09 <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
21:48:09 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/27-webapps-minutes.html timeless
21:48:10 <arunranga> sicking, yep, promised weinig I would do it
21:48:13 <Zakim> -anssik
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21:50:53 <Zakim> -arunranga
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22:01:50 <Zakim> -Olli_Pettay
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22:11:50 <benjamp> Agenda for Selection, Editing, Intentions: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-editing-tf/2014Oct/0021.html
22:12:06 <benjamp> Explainer for Intentions: http://w3c.github.io/editing-explainer/commands-explainer.html
22:12:14 <benjamp> Explainer for Editing: http://w3c.github.io/editing-explainer
22:14:08 <schuki> topic: selection, editing and user interactions
22:14:17 <schuki> benjamp: i have added links to irc ^
22:14:28 <timeless> i/Agenda/topic: selection, editing and user interactions/
22:14:29 <jcraig> jcraig has joined #webapps
22:14:29 <timeless> s/topic: selection, editing and user interactions//
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22:14:40 <schuki> ... overview: started with editing (exitensible web summit in jan)
22:14:44 <kbx> kbx has joined #webapps
22:14:45 <jhund> jhund has joined #webapps
22:14:52 <schuki> ... started to think about how to spec it
22:14:56 <timeless> s|Explainer for Editing: http://w3c.github.io/editing-explainer|-> http://w3c.github.io/editing-explainer Explainer for Editing|
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22:15:07 <schuki> ... since then had meetings on editing, and user intentions
22:15:16 <timeless> s|Agenda for Selection, Editing, Intentions: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-editing-tf/2014Oct/0021.html|-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-editing-tf/2014Oct/0021.html Agenda for Selection, Editing, Intentions|
22:15:18 <schuki> [diagram in spec]
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22:15:20 <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
22:15:20 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/27-webapps-minutes.html timeless
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22:15:37 <schuki> benjamp: diagram shows inputs, and what the user wants to accomplish
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22:15:50 <schuki> benjamp: today the situation is not well connected between the two
22:16:29 <ArtB> -> http://w3c.github.io/editing-explainer/ W3C Editing Explainer
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22:16:38 <schuki> ... trying to solve both at the same time
22:16:53 <ArtB> -> http://w3c.github.io/editing-explainer/commands-explainer.html User Intentions Explainer
22:16:55 <schuki> benjamp: we are brining people together to talk about this
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22:17:17 <schuki> benjamp: explainer doc (link above) talks about how we can make a single shape for all these intentions
22:18:12 <ArtB> -> http://w3c.github.io/selection-api/ Selection API
22:18:38 <schuki> benjamp: interested groups / apis: html, webapps, indie-ui, selection api, clipboard api, scroll,
22:18:44 <schuki> ... also interested in how this works with web components
22:18:54 <ArtB> Present+ Michael_Cooper, Rick_Byers
22:18:57 <schuki> ... to look at behaviours rather than just clip events
22:19:02 <schuki> s/clip/click
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22:19:24 <schuki> benjamp: also want to discuss how we can work on this with ARIA so you can update properties on the fly
22:19:28 <cyns> https://rawgit.com/cyns/wapa/master/wapa.html
22:19:39 <schuki> q?
22:19:41 <cyns> Web Accessibility Properties and Actions (WAPA) Explainer
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22:19:55 <timeless> q?
22:19:58 <schuki> ack arunranga
22:19:58 <Zakim> arunranga, you wanted to say I will work towards FPWD
22:19:59 <timeless> q- arunranga
22:19:59 <schuki> q?
22:20:06 <timeless> s/arunranga, you wanted to say I will work towards FPWD//
22:20:33 <schuki> benjamp: task force is working on editing and user intentions
22:20:42 <darobin> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-editing-tf/
22:20:47 <schuki> benjamp: [referring to spec]
22:20:49 <ArtB> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-editing-tf/  Editing TF list
22:20:54 <schuki> benjamp: you can refer an action based on intention
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22:21:33 <schuki> benjamp: we want to have a unified shape, and we need to work this out
22:21:42 <schuki> ... clipboard is one implementation
22:21:48 <schuki> ... indie-ui is another
22:21:56 <ArtB> Present+ Janina_Sajka, Richard_Schwerdtfeger
22:22:02 <schuki> ... dom lvl3 is working on implementing this
22:22:22 <schuki> benjamp: based on everyone's use acses, we could come up with small number of events
22:22:36 <jcraig> q+
22:22:48 <schuki> ... e.g. input, scrolling
22:22:53 <Norbert> q+
22:22:53 <ArtB> Present+ James_Craig, Katie_Haritos-Shea
22:22:58 <schuki> ... can we create 4/5 individual events to represent?
22:23:03 <schuki> ack jcraig
22:23:14 <schuki> jcraig: i see distinction between discreet and continuous events
22:23:22 <schuki> ... most so far have been discreet
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22:23:50 <richardschwerdtfeger> s/discreet/discrete/
22:23:58 <schuki> benjamp: rick, how about for scrolling?
22:24:14 <schuki> richt: we were worried about a lot of events
22:24:24 <schuki> ... does pressing down want to make many different events
22:24:32 <schuki> s/events/events?
22:24:42 <schuki> ... the harder problem is how these things are composed
22:24:53 <schuki> ... are dom events the right thing for this?
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22:25:29 <schuki> richt: scroll is a different case, a node may have a custom logic, then i need to work with custom logic and browser logic
22:25:48 <schuki> richt: we don't have a solution now, but this is a big question
22:26:07 <rniwa> +q
22:26:32 <schuki> richt: e.g. input. If i hit letter 'a', custom node, how does the flow with custom script and browser handle work?
22:26:38 <schuki> benjamp: would this be like other events?
22:26:43 <schuki> jcraig: yes
22:27:07 <schuki> ... we talked about instead of having custom event types you could have custom control
22:27:12 <schuki> ... e.g. this div represents stepper
22:27:22 <schuki> ... it has increment and decrement
22:28:00 <timeless> s/+q/q+/
22:28:02 <schuki> Norbert: it's getting complicated! More things: input methods (intercept keyboard events)
22:28:14 <schuki> ... minimising api would mean application needs api to talk to input method
22:28:17 <timeless> s/input methods/input methods [IMEs]/
22:28:19 <jcraig> s/it has increment and decrement/so it has a settable value, as well as increment and decrement methods/
22:28:22 <schuki> ... spelling checkers are another issue
22:28:29 <schuki> ... modifying text behind your back
22:28:33 <schuki> ... can cause issues
22:28:52 <schuki> benjamp: editing & intentions can be seen as different
22:29:02 <schuki> ... editing there could be some way that IMEs could be lost
22:29:07 <timeless> q+ to say that IMEs and spellcheckers should be considered as the same
22:29:10 <schuki> ... we need to think about this, file a bug on github
22:29:12 <schuki> ack Norbert
22:29:17 <chaals> q- later
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22:29:33 <chaals> q-
22:29:50 <sam> sam has joined #webapps
22:30:09 <timeless> ack rniwa
22:30:32 <schuki> rniwa: you have an action before / after, key input is discrete, either before or after
22:30:58 <schuki> ... these events bubble, content editing host could cancel but not everything can do this
22:31:01 <cyns> q+
22:31:10 <benjamp> q+
22:31:12 <schuki> rniwa: could also discuss input methods
22:31:37 <schuki> ... behaviour input methods interesting: random text is corrected by spelling mistake, which cause issues
22:31:54 <schuki> ... e.g. mac auto correction bubble
22:32:19 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/27-webapps-minutes.html Yves
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22:32:27 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/27-webapps-minutes.html ted
22:32:30 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/27-webapps-minutes.html Yves
22:32:32 <schuki> rniwa: so, intents might not identify everything, may need to think about context
22:32:37 <schuki> q?
22:32:42 <schuki> ack timeless
22:32:42 <Zakim> timeless, you wanted to say that IMEs and spellcheckers should be considered as the same
22:32:49 <ted> ted has left #webapps
22:32:57 <schuki> timeless: spellchecker could be considered the same
22:33:04 <schuki> ... some devices don't have a keyboard
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22:33:32 <schuki> ... mobile device e.g.
22:33:42 <schuki> ... web should not treat these differently
22:33:53 <schuki> timeless: latin lands are used to spell checkers
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22:34:42 <schuki> ack cyns
22:35:33 <timeless> s/spell checkers/spell checkers - cjk to IME, -- and not to the other one -- by merging the concepts, you ensure that anyone who codes to handle one case doesn't break when they encounter the other/
22:36:03 <schuki> cyns: idea is to solve use cases [1] scenario around another state by downloading another bunch of ARIA [2] word document, these can be long, dom has subset, content could have list elements, numbers etc, doc isnt good representation of a document
22:36:19 <schuki> ... idea is to allow assitive technology to trigger events
22:36:37 <schuki> ... there may also be more actions that it could do
22:36:44 <schuki> s/it/api
22:37:02 <schuki> cyns: this could work for testing of custom elements and web driver accessiblity
22:37:12 <schuki> ack benjamp
22:37:14 <cyns> https://rawgit.com/cyns/wapa/master/wapa.html
22:37:22 <rniwa> +q
22:37:22 <schuki> benjamp: there are many scenarios that need to be solved
22:37:25 <jcraig> q+ to mention dictation UI is similar to IME UI
22:37:25 <chaals> q+ richSchwer
22:37:42 <jcraig> q+ to mention API for custom RTE may be the right approach for editing.
22:37:43 <schuki> benjamp: needs intention shape for intention events
22:37:57 <schuki> ... then take this and see if it works for use cases
22:37:58 <timeless> s/+q/q+
22:38:22 <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
22:38:22 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/27-webapps-minutes.html timeless
22:38:38 <schuki> ... we need data
22:38:42 <schuki> ... input text could be one, and data would be text
22:39:07 <schuki> benjamp: good idea?
22:39:07 <chaals> q+ to ask about shapes
22:39:14 <jcraig> q+ to mention intentional events reconciliation with related physical events
22:39:17 <timeless> i/This sums up the review of pubstatus/Topic: Rundown of pubstatus/
22:39:22 <schuki> benjamp: if we had unified shape: intention, type, data
22:39:27 <schuki> comments?
22:39:35 <hober> q?
22:39:38 <schuki> ack richSchwer
22:39:53 <schuki> richSchwer: if you're going to scroll, you need range
22:40:09 <schuki> ... you need to tell app something rather than work it out itseld
22:40:22 <schuki> ... each platform has accessibility apis
22:40:32 <schuki> ... we need to get that to be seamless
22:40:45 <timeless> s/itseld/itself/
22:40:49 <cyns> q+ to agree that abstracting the platform apis is a goal
22:40:52 <schuki> ... we're getting back to the design pattern
22:40:55 <jcraig> s/has accessibility apis/has differences between each accessibility api/
22:41:02 <schuki> ... about delivering inform to the app
22:41:05 <jcraig> ack rn
22:41:17 <timeless> s/starting Introductin//
22:41:17 <schuki> rniwa: it would be useful for interested parties to come up with use case list
22:41:23 <schuki> ... to add to explainer
22:41:31 <darobin> q+ to have use cases as code as much as possible
22:41:39 <schuki> ... then proposal can be vetted against these use cases
22:41:46 <timeless> s/present cynthia_shelly//
22:41:48 <jcraig> ack me
22:41:48 <Zakim> jcraig, you wanted to mention dictation UI is similar to IME UI and to mention API for custom RTE may be the right approach for editing. and to mention intentional events
22:41:52 <Zakim> ... reconciliation with related physical events
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22:42:00 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
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22:42:36 <timeless> s/definiately/definitely/
22:42:52 <schuki> jcraig: rniwa Norbert were talking about IMEs, an idea could be an api which custom view could implement
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22:43:53 <timeless> s/frm Hajime/from Hajime/
22:44:27 <schuki> ... jcraig: reconciliation with physical events, intention will have id, and reconciliation can ???
22:44:28 <timeless> s/committments/commitments/
22:44:32 <myakura> s/richt/rbyers/
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22:44:54 <schuki> chaals: generic shape for events: good idea?
22:44:57 <rbyers> q+
22:45:03 <schuki> [5/6 hands up]
22:45:04 <timeless> q+ hober
22:45:05 <timeless> q+ weinig
22:45:08 <schuki> ack chaals
22:45:08 <Zakim> chaals, you wanted to ask about shapes
22:45:18 <hober> q-
22:45:20 <timeless> s/requiements/requirements/
22:45:29 <schuki> chaals: +1 to jcraig, need to figure out how intentional events can interact
22:45:36 <timeless> s/committment/commitment/
22:45:49 <schuki> ... need to figure out where events go when you start to pile them
22:45:59 <timeless> s/diferences/differences/
22:46:03 <schuki> ... we looked at this before
22:46:10 <timeless> s/unkowns/unknowns/
22:46:17 <schuki> ... a very simple set in 90s
22:46:24 <schuki> ... we had a set of events and they weren't used
22:46:40 <sam__> sam__ has joined #webapps
22:46:41 <jcraig> s/intention will have id, and reconciliation can ???/first event object could have id, and subsequent events could reference previous events by ID, to reconcile which physical events caused the related intention events/
22:46:44 <timeless> s/oportunities/opportunities/
22:46:53 <schuki> chaals: once you've done touch / pointer / slides etc.
22:47:02 <schuki> chaals: then remember you forgot mouse!
22:47:39 <schuki> chaals: the data payload for event, i am hearing rich and jcraig say objects need to provide information
22:47:40 <timeless> s/userhas/user has/
22:47:50 <timeless> s/thingdid/thing did/
22:47:51 <chaals> q?
22:48:02 <schuki> jcraig: yes so if view can take scroll then it should tell you how far you canview (scroll poisition, scroll range)
22:48:09 <timeless> s/primatives/primitives/
22:48:15 <timeless> ack cyns
22:48:15 <Zakim> cyns, you wanted to agree that abstracting the platform apis is a goal
22:48:20 <darobin> ack me
22:48:20 <Zakim> darobin, you wanted to have use cases as code as much as possible
22:48:36 <timeless> s/microsft/microsoft/
22:48:46 <timeless> s/sandox/sandbox/
22:48:57 <schuki> darobin: could have shims, reuse code methods
22:48:58 <benjamp> q+
22:48:59 <timeless> s/enbale/enable/
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22:49:24 <timeless> s/sandoxed/sandboxed/
22:49:32 <schuki> richt: is i have a componet that manages a list
22:49:36 <timeless> s/explicity/explicitly/
22:49:44 <schuki> ... when you hit space it does certain things
22:49:52 <schuki> ... inside this list people could make widget
22:49:59 <schuki> ... now if someone hit space bar what happens?
22:50:01 <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
22:50:01 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/27-webapps-minutes.html timeless
22:50:18 <schuki> ... ideally it extensible web view should handle this
22:50:30 <jcraig> q+ to mention potential requested code sample:
22:50:42 <timeless> s/sandox/sandbox/
22:50:52 <schuki> ... if we say devs design for this, then checkbox will never run, and before event will make container, container creates beforedefault etc...
22:51:02 <jcraig> q+ to [Example]
22:51:02 <schuki> scribe: timeless
22:51:02 <jcraig> partial interface UIEvent {
22:51:04 <jcraig>   readonly attribute EventID id; // UID of current event
22:51:05 <jcraig>   readonly attribute EventList relatedEvents; // List of related events, with ID and potentially type of each event.
22:51:06 <jcraig>   // This "dismissrequest" event is associated with the previous "keydown" and "keyup" events.
22:51:07 <jcraig> }
22:51:20 <timeless> benjamp: if the checkbox handles the spacebar
22:51:26 <timeless> ... ---
22:51:34 <timeless> ... keydown, if handled by checkbox, you're done
22:52:09 <timeless> q?
22:52:11 <timeless> ack weinig
22:52:23 <timeless> weinig: my concern with the question, and i wanted
22:52:35 <timeless> ... "should we look for generic shapes for intention events"
22:52:42 <timeless> ... i'd understand you'd want this for keyboard actions
22:52:47 <timeless> ... first a physical key event
22:52:57 <timeless> ... the os gets a chance to get decide what it means
22:53:13 <timeless> ... the thing i don't understand is why we'd generalize this to many different problem sets from the get go
22:53:23 <timeless> ... i'm not sure why polymorphism would be necessary
22:53:31 <timeless> ... why scroll/keyboard interactions should be handled identically
22:53:44 <timeless> chaals: you scroll using down / pagedown key / gesture / assistive technology
22:54:00 <timeless> ... the issue we have is that if you don't collect each of this different things and deal with them at the same level
22:54:06 <timeless> ... the problem isn't that a given thing will kill us all
22:54:17 <timeless> ... it's that the diversity means that web developers screw it up
22:54:38 <timeless> ... web developers interfere with a noticable number of people's user interface
22:54:47 <timeless> ... scroll, but for a user, it might mean something else
22:54:52 <timeless> ... twitter does this to me, every day
22:55:08 <timeless> q+ to say that FCC's complaint form interfered with me
22:55:23 <timeless> weinig: if it all goes well, Twitter would just have to handle one event handler for scroll, and get them all for free
22:55:31 <timeless> ... rubber band or scroll or bump
22:55:36 <timeless> chaals: correct
22:55:45 <timeless> ... the complication is that there are differences in what can be done
22:56:04 <timeless> weinig: it seems to be hard to fathom custom scrolling with scrolling with
22:56:12 <timeless> ... it would seem you want completely different code running
22:56:12 <timeless> q?
22:56:13 <jcraig> q?
22:56:21 <rbyers> q-
22:56:35 <timeless> [ We have an extra 15 minutes ]
22:56:37 <timeless> ack benjamp
22:56:46 <timeless> benjamp: we can schedule more time for editing tomorrow
22:56:58 <chaals> q+ to say contenteditable doesn't really work for most editors...
22:56:59 <timeless> ... what i want to show everyone is what this looks like
22:57:19 <timeless> ... this is a demo of intention events
22:57:33 <timeless> [ Demo ]
22:57:34 <jrossi> q?
22:57:50 <timeless> [ presses "a" ]
22:57:56 <timeless> [ gets an event ]
22:58:05 <timeless> [ presses "ctrl-b" ]
22:58:13 <timeless> [ gets a format event ]
22:58:24 <timeless> [ presses "ctrl-a" ]
22:58:39 <jrossi> demo: http://w3c.github.io/editing-explainer/demos/intentions-demo.html
22:58:42 <timeless> [ gets before selection change ]
22:58:56 <timeless> s|demo: http://w3c.github.io/editing-explainer/demos/intentions-demo.html|-> http://w3c.github.io/editing-explainer/demos/intentions-demo.html Demo|
22:59:40 <timeless> benjamp: on this sample, you could do content editable with intention events
22:59:51 <timeless> ... MS Office wanted to be able to style text w/o being able to modify text
22:59:59 <timeless> ... to give you a default style for email
23:00:17 <timeless> ... you could do that by canceling all text events except formatting
23:00:27 <timeless> ... you could talk about how intention events could apply to a custom component
23:00:32 <jcraig> ack me
23:00:32 <Zakim> jcraig, you wanted to mention potential requested code sample: and to [Example]
23:00:37 <rniwa> q+
23:00:54 <jcraig> [Example]
23:00:55 <jcraig> partial interface UIEvent {
23:00:55 <timeless> jcraig: someone mentioned specific examples
23:00:56 <jcraig>   readonly attribute EventID id; // UID of current event
23:00:57 <jcraig>   readonly attribute EventList relatedEvents; // List of related events, with ID and potentially type of each event.
23:00:58 <jcraig>   // This "dismissrequest" event is associated with the previous "keydown" and "keyup" events.
23:00:59 <jcraig> }
23:01:18 <timeless> ... we had Jason Kiss
23:01:20 <sicking> sicking has joined #webapps
23:01:24 <timeless> ... develop a polyfill for some of these events
23:01:28 <chaals> q-
23:01:38 <timeless> ack me
23:01:38 <Zakim> timeless, you wanted to say that FCC's complaint form interfered with me
23:02:39 <timeless> timeless: Both the web page (FCC) and myself wanted to advance to the next field, (I pressed tab), we both won -- I lost (double advance)
23:02:44 <timeless> ack rniwa
23:02:49 <cyns> q+
23:02:57 <timeless> rniwa: "Keyboard is easy to spec"
23:03:03 <benjamp> q+
23:03:03 <timeless> [ Travis kicks him ]
23:03:17 <timeless> ... when you move the cursor, it said "modify event"
23:03:25 <weinig> weinig has joined #webapps
23:03:26 <timeless> ... but different OSs/Browsers do different things
23:03:37 <chaals> q+
23:03:44 <timeless> ... right could mean right-physical, or next-logical
23:03:53 <timeless> ... cursor end could mean line end or page end
23:04:09 <timeless> ... we need to be careful what kind of extensibility we need to be aware of
23:04:13 <chaals> q+ to say "how you move the cursor is different from browser to browser" is sort of the point
23:04:14 <timeless> ... valueChange
23:04:26 <timeless> ack cyns
23:04:27 <AndroUser> AndroUser has joined #webapps
23:04:29 <timeless> cyns: scrolling
23:04:37 <timeless> ... while you might want different behavior for the scroll itself
23:04:44 <timeless> ... infinite scroll (image search results)
23:04:49 <timeless> ... you still want to load the next batch of things
23:04:53 <jcraig> q+
23:04:54 <timeless> ... using the intention event
23:05:00 <timeless> ... and other scripts for the details
23:05:02 <timeless> ack benjamp
23:05:11 <timeless> benjamp: rniwa, maybe actions can be tied to extensions
23:05:15 <timeless> ... "shift-right-arrow"
23:05:31 <timeless> ... conjecturing, associate with "modify caret" + "to right"
23:05:46 <timeless> ... if the site wants to do something else, they could listen to the keys and said a different intention event
23:05:51 <timeless> ... you can modify what an intention is
23:05:56 <jmhyeon> jmhyeon has joined #webapps
23:06:06 <timeless> [ Editing Explainer ]
23:06:11 <timeless> benjamp: for a keyboard event
23:06:18 <timeless> ... DeclareIntention(
23:06:20 <nvdbleek> nvdbleek has joined #webapps
23:06:24 <timeless> ... changing the intention of an action
23:06:29 <rniwa> q+
23:06:31 <timeless> ... "shift-right-arrow" in RTL
23:06:37 <timeless> ... i want it to be non standard
23:06:46 <timeless> ... I can map this to be "modify-selection" + "left"
23:06:49 <timeless> ... )
23:06:50 <jcraig> q-
23:06:57 <timeless> ... then you can respond to it in the intention handler
23:07:02 <timeless> ack chaals
23:07:02 <Zakim> chaals, you wanted to say "how you move the cursor is different from browser to browser" is sort of the point
23:07:32 <timeless> chaals: instead of you listening to the interface action in the web app
23:07:36 <timeless> ... you get the platform event
23:07:41 <timeless> ... concept
23:07:43 <timeless> ack rniwa
23:07:46 <song> song has joined #webapps
23:07:54 <timeless> rniwa: what if today all browsers do selection logically
23:08:01 <timeless> ... but what if a browser wants it to be physically
23:08:13 <timeless> ... extend bidi text selection to the right
23:08:18 <jcraig> s/physically/visually/
23:08:34 <timeless> ... it might be different
23:08:40 <vollick> vollick has joined #webapps
23:08:48 <timeless> ... to be able to extend physically
23:08:58 <timeless> benjamp: if a browser creates selections that are disjoint
23:09:06 <timeless> ... the browser needs to keep in mind that this may break sites
23:09:14 <fjh> fjh has joined #webapps
23:09:30 <timeless> rniwa: how do we support new intentions
23:09:41 <timeless> chaals: we already have that problem
23:09:46 <timeless> ... we add a new device interface
23:09:53 <timeless> ... and the web app becomes totally unusable
23:10:00 <jcraig> q+
23:10:05 <timeless> ... i suspect that's not a really big problem
23:10:11 <timeless> ... future proofing is always difficult
23:10:21 <timeless> ... but future proofing based on what we've got is a nightmare
23:10:29 <timeless> ... we will continue to see new intentions
23:10:31 <timeless> ack jcraig
23:11:00 <timeless> jcraig: rniwa and weinig were describing selection model changing
23:11:11 <timeless> ... that might be the case for the api to set the specific selection
23:11:19 <timeless> ... in continuous scroll
23:11:32 <timeless> ... instead of a series of scroll events
23:11:38 <timeless> ... set some values on view
23:12:01 <timeless> janina: sometimes we say intention and talk about the way we achieve something
23:12:21 <vollick_> vollick_ has joined #webapps
23:12:22 <timeless> ... we need to be careful about language
23:12:43 <timeless> chaals: that gives you lots of things to think about
23:12:51 <timeless> ... shall we put this on the agenda tomorrow?
23:12:55 <timeless> benjamp: yes
23:13:11 <timeless> chaals: people want to make contenteditable go away
23:13:29 <jeff> jeff has joined #webapps
23:13:46 <timeless> ArtB: preference?
23:13:48 <timeless> chaals: after 3
23:13:55 <timeless> rniwa: likewise (but for performance conflict)
23:14:01 <timeless> ArtB: ok, 3-4
23:14:11 <timeless> jcraig: we had other topics other than events/editing
23:14:16 <timeless> ... join had topics about selection api
23:14:20 <Hyunjin> Hyunjin has joined #webapps
23:14:34 <timeless> ... computed role on element
23:14:44 <timeless> ... user context / user settings
23:15:19 <timeless> s/3-4/3:30-5/
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23:21:59 <chaals1> scribe: Chaals
23:22:05 <chaals1> Topic: Annotations
23:22:31 <chaals1> FJH: The idea is to enable an annotation to something that is on the web. You have a body of an annotation annotating something.
23:22:31 <a12u> a12u has joined #webapps
23:22:40 <chaals1> … you need to point to the thing you are annotating.
23:22:57 <chaals1> … which might be a part of a resoource - word, sentence, video fragment...
23:23:04 <chaals1> … that's a target of the annottation.
23:23:17 <chaals1> The thing you annotate may change. So how do you keepthe target pointing to the right place
23:23:25 <chaals1> s/The/... the
23:23:36 <chaals1> … using a word-count might be fragile, for example.
23:23:47 <chaals1> … We might not get perfection but we want robust linking.
23:23:55 <chaals1> … Doug has done some stuff, and Rob too.
23:24:26 <chaals1> DS: I use a Mac, so we have problems connecting to things
23:25:01 <azaroth_> azaroth_ has joined #webapps
23:25:08 <azaroth_> q?
23:25:13 <JonathanJ1> JonathanJ1 has joined #webapps
23:25:21 <chaals1> s/https://www.w3.org/wiki/Webapps/November2014Meeting//
23:25:31 <fjh> q?
23:25:43 <chaals1> DougS: This is sort of related to Selection API. Instead of based on user input it is based on something that was being selected before.
23:26:02 <chaals1> … problems include not having ids, having duplicate strings, or a documnt gets changed, ….
23:26:16 <chaals1> [slide: solutions]
23:26:59 <chaals1> [slide: example of context - 32 characters before and after the thing that is being selected]
23:27:24 <chaals1> … have a strawman, looking for help on how to achieve. One idea was using the find-in-page function...
23:27:48 <chaals1> … we don't expose the text locations through an API
23:27:49 <MichaelC> MichaelC has joined #webapps
23:28:09 <chaals1> TL: There's nothing in W3C platform. In the DHTML platform from MS we had something like this.
23:28:11 <ArtB> zakim, who's here?
23:28:11 <Zakim> On the phone I see Portland, lgombos
23:28:13 <Zakim> Portland has timeless
23:28:13 <Zakim> On IRC I see MichaelC, JonathanJ1, azaroth, a12u, marcosc, myakura_, smfr, forty41, ArtB, chaals1, jeff, vollick_, fjh, song, nvdbleek, sam__, tantek, mihnea_____, sam, arunranga,
23:28:13 <Zakim> ... kn1, MarkS, rbyers, joanie, jrossi, jhund, rniwa, alan-i, kurosawa, Tomoyuki, Zefa, glenn_, hiroto__, bkardell_, darobin, plh, kenneth_, zcorpan, adrianba, hjlee, hiroki,
23:28:15 <Zakim> ... plinss, anssik, bryan_, jungkees, RRSAgent, Zakim, lgombos, marcosc_, kochi1, kochi, tyoshino, igrigorik, stryx`_, stryx`, MikeSmith, hober, paul___irish, slightlyoff, tobie,
23:28:15 <Zakim> ... astearns
23:28:19 <smfr> smfr has left #webapps
23:28:25 <chaals1> … IE's find on page is built on top of this, on the precursor to the DOM range API.
23:28:30 <vollick_> vollick_ has left #webapps
23:28:39 <chaals1> DS: That could be an interesting starting point, perhaps.
23:28:53 <chaals1> ACTION: travis to find an MSDN page that describes this
23:28:54 <trackbot> Created ACTION-753 - Find an msdn page that describes this [on Travis Leithead - due 2014-11-03].
23:28:54 <myakura_> s/richt/rbyers/
23:29:03 <MichaelC> MichaelC has left #webapps
23:29:08 <chaals1> s/describes this/describes the finding thing in IE
23:29:21 <chaals1> DS: This is all speculative. We want to find text...
23:29:26 <chaals1> [slide: strawman]
23:29:34 <fjh> q?
23:29:41 <darobin> https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/window.find -> windows.find() is also related to this
23:29:44 <chaals1> … simple case is a string you want to match
23:30:00 <fjh> the MSDN page: http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ie/ms536422(v=vs.85).aspx
23:30:00 <chaals1> … have an idea how to style this too.
23:30:05 <benjamp> benjamp has joined #webapps
23:30:10 <chaals1> close action-753
23:30:10 <trackbot> Closed action-753.
23:30:12 <HZ> HZ has joined #webapps
23:30:23 <chaals1> [slide: strawman part 2]
23:30:24 <youngwoojo> youngwoojo has joined #webapps
23:30:42 <chaals1> [slide: styling]
23:31:03 <chaals1> q?
23:31:09 <Ian> Ian has joined #webapps
23:31:24 <azaroth> q+
23:31:32 <chaals1> TL: You showed some potential ways to find the annotation. And you ended up proposing stuff based on literal text and before/after. Is there a reason why that bubbled to the top?
23:31:36 <chaals1> DS: Not really.
23:31:47 <chaals1> … don't know how this would work, and what it would try.
23:31:48 <chaals1> q+
23:32:03 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/27-webapps-minutes.html Yves
23:32:13 <chaals1> … I didn't know how to do edit distance. CSS selector would be the fastest if you knew how to do it
23:32:25 <chaals1> FJH: Did you run this by the annotation conf?
23:32:36 <chaals1> Kristof: We're working on a fork of @@
23:32:39 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/27-webapps-minutes.html Yves
23:32:48 <Ian> Ian has left #webapps
23:33:13 <chaals1> … we implemented something related to this. You can pass in a bunch of selectors using different types, and a bunch of registered @@@ strategies. The framework is meant to run through the strategies to find solutions.
23:33:33 <chaals1> … they could be ranges, or in the case of images you might want to return specific part of the image which has been identified.
23:33:39 <chaals1> s/@@@/anchoring/
23:34:01 <chaals1> … We have one using Xpath selector, one that is character position, or using context and levenstein distance.
23:34:06 <chaals1> … These all should be extensible.
23:34:38 <chaals1> … Other side of the equation, pass in a fragment and describe it with different selectors, so you get the fragment, and it gives back different selectors.
23:34:55 <ArtB> q?
23:34:55 <chaals1> … We save the selection, and try to re-anchor with several strategies for robustness.
23:34:56 <chaals1> q?
23:35:11 <Norbert> Norbert has joined #webapps
23:35:14 <chaals1> DS: There are plenty of approaches we could take, this is a strawman.
23:35:28 <chaals1> … we want things useful for the platform in general not just annotations.
23:35:40 <chaals1> TL: This seems like a missing piece. You can use selectors, but this doesn't exist yet.
23:35:57 <chaals1> DS: Right. Seen people wanting to find text in the content but not the chrome of a webapp
23:36:12 <chaals1> TL: Manual text finding from the node tree is slow.
23:36:16 <chaals1> DS: Right
23:36:31 <chaals1> … a find in page dialog won't cross or block on boundaries.
23:37:08 <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
23:37:08 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/27-webapps-minutes.html ArtB
23:37:20 <fjh> q?
23:37:22 <chaals1> RobS: Various ways of selecting the area, and then deciding if something matches. Levenstein distance isn't the same as Xpath.
23:37:29 <chaals1> … does it match vs where is it.
23:38:02 <chaals1> … in open annotation data model we have what we call selectors, - text quote selector and offset. Data offset for arbitrary bitstreams, SVG, fragment selector
23:38:25 <ArtB> Present+ Doug_Schepers, Robert_Sanderson, Frederick_Hirsch
23:38:27 <chaals1> … One way forward is to figure out how you transfer a set of selectors via the API.
23:38:33 <ArtB> q?
23:38:38 <chaals1> DS: That's what the options object would be
23:38:39 <ArtB> ack azaroth
23:38:44 <ArtB> ack chaals
23:39:32 <ArtB> Present+ Kristof_Csillag
23:39:46 <chaals1> CMN: Have you looked at the fuzzy pointers developed about 12 years ago for EARL? Like Xpointers designed for HTML, to solve this kind of problem
23:39:56 <fjh> q?
23:39:57 <chaals1> ACTION: Doug to ask chaals where fuzzy pointers stuff is
23:39:57 <trackbot> Error finding 'Doug'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/users>.
23:40:03 <chaals1> DS: There is a lot of prior art here...
23:40:20 <chaals1> Kristof: We find text in a corpus and map it back to where it is in the DOM
23:40:31 <ArtB> ACTION: frederick work with Doug and Chaals re fuzzy pointers stuff for Web Annotations WG
23:40:31 <trackbot> Created ACTION-754 - Work with doug and chaals re fuzzy pointers stuff for web annotations wg [on Frederick Hirsch - due 2014-11-03].
23:40:37 <chaals1> … the browser knows where the teext it finds is, but doesn't expose that. Doing so would be good for everyone.
23:40:49 <chaals1> … We are using selectors defined by Open Annotation group.
23:40:54 <chaals1> q?
23:40:55 <ArtB> q?
23:41:08 <chaals1> FJH: What are our next steps?
23:41:44 <chaals1> [looking at http://jibbering.com/discussion/fuzzy-pointers.html is aprt of solving action 754]
23:42:03 <chaals1> FJH: We're looking at next steps. Are there any problems with where Doug is going?
23:42:46 <chaals1> Kristof: Are we doing this to work on any kind of document, or just for a few data rtypes? Because if the former we cannot just rely on DOM ranges now, and need a new type.
23:43:06 <chaals1> ArtB: API scope is a common question for us. One answer is always "what are the use cases"?
23:43:20 <chaals1> … whatis the status of use cases for this?
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23:43:40 <fjh> q?
23:43:42 <chaals1> RobS: In digital publishing IG we have a long set of use cases some of which cover this.
23:43:54 <chaals1> … that's work in W3C and IDPF (who do ePub)
23:44:13 <chaals1> … there are definitely use cases around annotating images. HTML and text are the things that change most often.
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23:44:29 <chaals1> FJH: I would argue taht we should start focusing on text in HTML.
23:44:47 <chaals1> … where you know someone will edit it, but you want your link not to die.
23:45:01 <chaals1> … this was discussed in Annotation Workshop and is in proceedings.
23:45:18 <chaals1> ArtB: To best engage with Webapps, should identify the use cases that are clearly in scope.
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23:45:49 <chaals1> FJH: We have a proposal that goes beyond the use cases, but we need to figure out how to progress it. It needs to be implemented - do we do that through webapps?
23:45:56 <Cyril> rrsagent, pointer
23:45:56 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2014/10/27-webapps-irc#T23-45-56
23:46:00 <chaals1> TL: W=You could polyfill now, and it will just be slow, right?
23:46:28 <chaals1> DS: Right. So we should come up with solid use cases, make a spec and polyfill it and see if we get people to agree.
23:47:18 <chaals1> TL: Think you should continue. Please support your scenarios with some APIs you want in general. On finding text, it will probably be prohibitively expensive to find all matches at once. Finding all is an iteration on find next where you can yield back.
23:47:43 <chaals1> … text should be senstitive to unicode issues for characters - some things might not match all the time.
23:47:57 <marcosc__> marcosc__ has joined #webapps
23:48:00 <chaals1> … to generalise it, case insensitivity, regexp, etc would be useful.
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23:48:10 <chaals1> … Think that this really is something missing from the platform.
23:48:17 <ArtB> q?
23:48:19 <azaroth> q?
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23:48:44 <chaals1> PaulC: Go look at all of the string matching stuff in Xquery/Xpath. We looked at all of those things when we did that stuff. It's in a standalone W3C spec.
23:48:48 <fjh> q?
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23:49:25 <chaals1> FJH: Next steps: Bring summary of use cases to webapps. In our group do a survey of previous work, and produce a working draft and share it.
23:49:35 <chaals1> … want to understand how we get beyond that.
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23:49:44 <azaroth> ACTION: azaroth to update use case document and extract robust anchoring items to provide to webapps
23:49:44 <trackbot> Error finding 'azaroth'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/users>.
23:49:44 <chaals1> … does webapps have any constraints about timelines?
23:49:51 <chaals1> TL: Is it in our charter?
23:50:05 <chaals1> ArtB: Yep. can be done as a joint deliverable.
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23:50:18 <chaals1> FJH: Anything happening in webapps we should know about?
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23:51:38 <chaals1> CMN: Look at editing - you can maybe use taht sometimes to help understand what changed, and get updates to keep your pointers able to find what happened.
23:51:59 <chaals1> RB: There is also a CG that worked a while ago on "CSS Xpointer scheme".
23:52:28 <chaals1> … it would have to be rewritten to make stuff work, but I have some notes somewhere and think this can be mapped onto an HTML DOM, and would allow you to make webpointers. It's pretty easy.
23:52:48 <chaals1> ACTION: Robin to solve the rest of the problems related to robust targeting of changing documents.
23:52:48 <trackbot> Created ACTION-755 - Solve the rest of the problems related to robust targeting of changing documents. [on Robin Berjon - due 2014-11-03].
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23:53:44 <chaals1> Kristof: There are different applications and document types, and to support tehm all we should be able to register new anchor types and discovery algorithms. So we should have a framework that applications can use to communicate through, adding new algorithms rather than trying to a priori specify them all.
23:53:45 <darobin> *cough*
23:54:08 <chaals1> action-755 due wednesday
23:54:08 <trackbot> Set action-755 Solve the rest of the problems related to robust targeting of changing documents. due date to 2014-10-29.
23:54:29 <chaals1> … we should be able to inject a new strategy for finding things into the framework.
23:54:42 <chaals1> FJH: Right but I don't think that bears on the webapps group.
23:54:54 <chaals1> DS: That would have to be something that isn't the same as find-text.
23:55:08 <chaals1> FJH: We'll figure it out when we get a better proposal today
23:55:32 <chaals1> DS: Travis were you saying we make something like a regex, and then apply it repeatedly finding the next match is what we should do?
23:55:37 <ArtB> q?
23:55:46 <chaals1> TL: Sure… maybe...
23:55:54 <chaals1> [adjourned]
23:56:32 <Zakim> -lgombos
23:56:39 <Zakim> -Portland
23:56:41 <Zakim> RWC_WAPI()12:00PM has ended
23:56:41 <Zakim> Attendees were +1.650.318.aaaa, Portland, Portland.a, Seattle, Olli_Pettay, Domenic, anssik, tyoshino, lgombos?, timeless, +47.21.65.aacc, hallvors, lgombos, +44.207.095.aadd,
23:56:41 <Zakim> ... mvano, johnmellor-chrome, +44.207.346.aaee, arunranga
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23:58:10 <chaals1> rrsagent, draft minutes
23:58:10 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/27-webapps-minutes.html chaals1
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15:57:14 <ArtB> zakim, this will be rwc_wapi
15:57:14 <Zakim> ok, ArtB, I see RWC_WAPI()12:00PM already started
15:57:27 <ArtB> RRSAgent, log?
15:57:27 <RRSAgent> I'm logging.  Sorry, nothing found for 'log'
15:57:40 <ArtB> RRSAgent, help
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15:58:27 <ArtB> RRSAgent, bye
15:58:27 <RRSAgent> I see 27 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/27-webapps-actions.rdf :
15:58:27 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Marcos work with SysApps to find an agenda slot for Tuesday [1]
15:58:27 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/27-webapps-irc#T16-15-57
15:58:27 <RRSAgent> ACTION: barstow start CfC to publish UI Events as a "gutted" WG Note [2]
15:58:27 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/27-webapps-irc#T16-26-26
15:58:27 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Travis to check that the D3E tests are in GH or Mercurial, and if needed fix [3]
15:58:27 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/27-webapps-irc#T16-28-07
15:58:27 <RRSAgent> ACTION: barstow work with Adrian to find a replacement TC for Alex and D3E [4]
15:58:27 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/27-webapps-irc#T16-28-59
15:58:27 <RRSAgent> ACTION: barstow create a new bugzilla component for Inner Text [5]
15:58:27 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/27-webapps-irc#T16-38-01
15:58:27 <RRSAgent> ACTION: barstow start a CfC to publish a "gutted" WG Note of the Fullscreen API [6]
15:58:27 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/27-webapps-irc#T16-40-52
15:58:27 <RRSAgent> ACTION: barstow start a CfC to publish a Proposed Recommendation of IDB [7]
15:58:27 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/27-webapps-irc#T16-52-30
15:58:27 <RRSAgent> ACTION: barstow issue a Call for Test Facilitator for IME spec [8]
15:58:27 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/27-webapps-irc#T16-59-24
15:58:27 <RRSAgent> ACTION: charles ask cjk interest group and others about IME (use cases, tests, etc.) [9]
15:58:27 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/27-webapps-irc#T17-02-50
15:58:27 <RRSAgent> ACTION: barstow re SSE test results, followup on the Timeouts with the 2 test facilitators [10]
15:58:27 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/27-webapps-irc#T17-08-35
15:58:27 <RRSAgent> ACTION: yves, follow with Cameron re PR 271 and the Web IDL test suite [11]
15:58:27 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/27-webapps-irc#T17-11-01
15:58:27 <RRSAgent> ACTION: yves, work on moving Web IDL v1 to REC [12]
15:58:27 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/27-webapps-irc#T17-15-21
15:58:27 <RRSAgent> ACTION: charles try to find someone to help Yves, Cam and Boris on Web IDL v1 [13]
15:58:27 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/27-webapps-irc#T17-15-58
15:58:27 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Yves to work on moving Web IDL v1 to REC [14]
15:58:27 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/27-webapps-irc#T17-16-34
15:58:27 <RRSAgent> ACTION: adrian determine Kris' availability to work on the Web Messaging and Web Sockets implemenation reports [15]
15:58:27 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/27-webapps-irc#T17-19-16
15:58:27 <RRSAgent> ACTION: barstow followup with Simon re running the Web Workers tests [16]
15:58:27 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/27-webapps-irc#T17-19-41
15:58:27 <RRSAgent> ACTION: abateman2 to determine Kris' availability to work on the Web Messaging and Web Sockets implemenation reports [17]
15:58:27 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/27-webapps-irc#T17-20-06
15:58:27 <RRSAgent> ACTION: barstow start a CfC to gut XHR L2 and publish a WG Note [18]
15:58:27 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/27-webapps-irc#T18-45-45
15:58:27 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Arun mark file list as Feature @ Risk [19]
15:58:27 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/27-webapps-irc#T21-09-51
15:58:27 <RRSAgent> ACTION: barstow start a CfC to publish File API LCWD [20]
15:58:27 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/27-webapps-irc#T21-11-21
15:58:27 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Arun deleted the UC in File API that starts with "Data should be able to be stored ..." [21]
15:58:27 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/27-webapps-irc#T21-15-45
15:58:27 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Yves followup with Cameron re PR 27 and the Web IDL test suite [22]
15:58:27 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/27-webapps-irc#T21-30-04-1
15:58:27 <RRSAgent> ACTION: travis to find an MSDN page that describes this [23]
15:58:27 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/27-webapps-irc#T23-28-53
15:58:27 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Doug to ask chaals where fuzzy pointers stuff is [24]
15:58:27 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/27-webapps-irc#T23-39-57
15:58:27 <RRSAgent> ACTION: frederick work with Doug and Chaals re fuzzy pointers stuff for Web Annotations WG [25]
15:58:27 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/27-webapps-irc#T23-40-31
15:58:27 <RRSAgent> ACTION: azaroth to update use case document and extract robust anchoring items to provide to webapps [26]
15:58:27 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/27-webapps-irc#T23-49-44
15:58:27 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Robin to solve the rest of the problems related to robust targeting of changing documents. [27]
15:58:27 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/27-webapps-irc#T23-52-48
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15:58:59 <bryan_> present+ Bryan_Sullivan
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