15:16:49 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #social
15:16:49 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/10/27-social-irc
15:16:51 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
15:16:53 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be SOCL
15:16:53 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
15:16:54 <trackbot> Meeting: Social Web Working Group Teleconference
15:16:54 <trackbot> Date: 27 October 2014
15:17:41 <Arnaud> zakim, this is SOCL
15:17:41 <Zakim> sorry, Arnaud, I do not see a conference named 'SOCL' in progress or scheduled at this time
15:18:36 <harry> harry has joined #social
15:18:56 <evanpro> evanpro has joined #social
15:19:00 <harry> How many people want to participate remotely?
15:19:00 <evanpro> Hi everyone
15:19:16 <harry> Zakim, space for 10?
15:19:17 <Zakim> ok, harry; conference Team_(social)15:19Z scheduled with code 7625 (SOCL) for 60 minutes until 1619Z
15:19:26 <harry> Zakim, this is Team_social
15:19:26 <Zakim> sorry, harry, I do not see a conference named 'Team_social' in progress or scheduled at this time
15:19:31 <harry> Zakim, this is SOCL
15:19:31 <Zakim> harry, I see Team_(social)15:19Z in the schedule but not yet started.  Perhaps you mean "this will be SOCL".
15:20:09 <harry> Zakim, space for 10 for 570 minutes?
15:20:09 <Zakim> harry, an adhoc conference was scheduled here less than 2 minutes ago
15:20:17 <harry> Zakim, call Salon2
15:20:17 <Zakim> ok, harry; the call is being made
15:20:18 <Zakim> Team_(social)15:19Z has now started
15:20:19 <Zakim> +Salon2
15:21:20 <harry> Zakim, what's the code?
15:21:20 <Zakim> the conference code is 7625 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), harry
15:22:05 <Zakim> -Salon2
15:22:07 <Zakim> Team_(social)15:19Z has ended
15:22:07 <Zakim> Attendees were Salon2
15:22:09 <Zakim> Team_(social)15:19Z has now started
15:22:16 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:22:30 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
15:22:31 <Zakim> Team_(social)15:19Z has ended
15:22:31 <Zakim> Attendees were [IPcaller]
15:22:38 <Zakim> Team_(social)15:19Z has now started
15:22:44 <Zakim> +??P2
15:22:50 <harry> Zakim, what's the code?
15:22:50 <Zakim> the conference code is 7625 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), harry
15:22:53 <harry> Zakim, call Salon2
15:22:53 <Zakim> ok, harry; the call is being made
15:22:54 <Zakim> +Salon2
15:22:57 <elf-pavlik> Zakim, who's on call?
15:22:57 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, elf-pavlik.
15:23:01 <elf-pavlik> Zakim, who's on the call?
15:23:01 <Zakim> On the phone I see ??P2, Salon2
15:23:08 <harry> elf, can you say something
15:23:11 <harry> we are testing?
15:23:11 <elf-pavlik> Zakim, ??P2 is me
15:23:11 <Zakim> +elf-pavlik; got it
15:25:01 <Arnaud> hi
15:25:06 <Arnaud> folks are still gathering  here
15:25:11 <Arnaud> long queue at the registration
15:25:19 <elf-pavlik> sounds busy there :)
15:26:16 <evanpro> Arnaud: http://evan.prodromou.name/files/TPAC/
15:33:10 <pfefferle_> pfefferle_ has joined #social
15:39:31 <evanpro> We're taking a few minutes to let the people waiting in the registration line get to the room
15:39:39 <evanpro> I'm going to check on the line and see if we're about ready to begin
15:39:46 <elf-pavlik> harry, thanks for setting up VoIP conference! looks like only i needed it :)
15:42:46 <Arnaud> we'll start at xx:45
15:42:52 <nicolagreco> nicolagreco has joined #social
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15:48:58 <harry> I think others will dial-in
15:49:04 <harry> I'll send out the info to the mailing list.
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15:50:53 <AnnBassetti> AnnBassetti has joined #social
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15:51:51 <AnnBassetti> Arnaud:  introduces the meeting, process, timeline
15:51:53 <Andy_> Andy_ has joined #social
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15:52:55 <AnnBassetti> scribenick:  Annb
15:53:55 <AnnBassetti> Arnaud: 2 items submitted as Working Drafts (on Activity Streams) ...
15:54:17 <AnnBassetti> ... need decide what next steps are
15:54:38 <AnnBassetti> ... goal for meeting is to come out with upcoming agenda and actions
15:55:10 <AnnBassetti> ... tomorrow the IG will bring Use Cases, for consideration by WG
15:55:44 <AnnBassetti> ... WG has a specific timeline (2 years), in which to do its work
15:56:07 <AnnBassetti> ... IG doesn't have deadline, so has more flexibility to explore
15:57:32 <harry> Zakim, what's the code?
15:57:32 <Zakim> the conference code is 7625 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), harry
15:58:08 <AnnBassetti> Evan: if WG doesn't finish some deliverables, or new ones come, when this charter runs out .. then what happens?
15:58:29 <AnnBassetti> Arnaud:  need new charter, especially for new deliverables .. due to patent agreements
15:59:05 <AnnBassetti> ... today we'll work all day
15:59:23 <AnnBassetti> ... tomorrow we'll break between 11-2 for the ad-hoc meetings
15:59:51 <harry> q+
16:00:44 <AnnBassetti> ... we'll adjust the agenda based on discussions this morning
16:00:44 <lehawes> What do IG members think about having a breakout meeting/lunch from 11-2 tomorrow? Who is available?
16:00:59 <AnnBassetti> I'm available
16:01:28 <Arnaud> ack harry
16:01:53 <AnnBassetti> Harry: WebApps Sec WG working on types of protection for various types of content
16:02:42 <AnnBassetti> ... Annotations WG has interest for discussions with Social WG .. likely Tues afternoon
16:03:08 <AnnBassetti> ... <discussing when it'd be good for 2 groups to meet, for cross-fertilization>
16:03:24 <lehawes> Thanks AnnBasetti! Anyone else from the IG interested in working together in a breakout tomorrow?
16:03:59 <AnnBassetti> Lloyd:  +1 to Harry
16:04:09 <EdK> I can split out into IG session
16:04:09 <harry> scribenick: AnnBassetti
16:04:46 <elf-pavlik> Arnaud, yes I can hear!
16:04:53 <lehawes> OK EdK. Thanks!
16:05:40 <Arnaud> q?
16:05:43 <AnnBassetti> <some attendees having trouble getting into IRC .. trying to figure it out>
16:06:38 <AnnBassetti> Evan: presents "Social WG Status"
16:06:57 <harry> topic: Social WG
16:07:04 <elf-pavlik> http://evan.prodromou.name/files/TPAC/
16:07:11 <evanpro> Thanks Elf!
16:08:25 <bryan_> bryan_ has joined #social
16:09:14 <AnnBassetti> Evan:  reviews history of various groups on "social" since 2010 at W3C ..
16:09:54 <AnnBassetti> ... immediate causes:
16:10:04 <AnnBassetti> ... convergence of open standards work
16:10:18 <AnnBassetti> ... increased collaboration between OpenSocial and W3C
16:10:25 <AnnBassetti> ... <a couple other points>
16:11:41 <AndyF> ;join #social-chat
16:12:36 <harry> AndyF, everything is just in #social
16:15:23 <AnnBassetti> s/<a couple other points>/Activity Streams 2.0
16:15:25 <Loqi> AnnBassetti meant to say: ... Activity Streams 2.0
16:15:50 <AnnBassetti> ... increased IndieWeb development
16:16:17 <elf-pavlik> also some activity on github: https://github.com/jasnell/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/issues
16:16:36 <AnnBassetti> ... <Evan covered much more; see his slides>
16:18:07 <Shane> Shane has joined #social
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16:21:26 <Shane> Hi all, I'm around on IRC but afraid I forgot my headphones so can't currently listen in at the moment
16:21:44 <AnnBassetti_> scribenick: AnnBassetti_
16:22:19 <AnnBassetti_> Evan: <continuing his introductory presentation>
16:22:53 <AnnBassetti_> ... very diverse set of team members; many different points of focus
16:23:10 <AnnBassetti_> ... also a challenge is how to interact with the IG
16:23:19 <AnnBassetti_> ... tight schedule; fairly high stakes
16:23:27 <AnnBassetti_> .... big opportunity
16:23:49 <AnnBassetti_> ... Next steps:
16:24:04 <AnnBassetti_> ... 1. Commit to strategies for API and protocol
16:24:38 <shepazu> shepazu has joined #social
16:24:39 <AnnBassetti_> ... 2. Push Social API First Public Working Draft for Q4 2014
16:24:57 <AnnBassetti_> ... 3. Keep federation protocol effort spun up for Q1 2015
16:26:41 <AnnBassetti_> ... Opportunities in 2015 and 2016, to build upon the work of this WG
16:26:58 <AnnBassetti_> Evan:  questions? discussion?
16:27:20 <EdK> q+
16:27:34 <harry> q+
16:27:51 <AnnBassetti_> Arnaud: in addition to adding specific items on REC track, we can also have a "wish list"
16:28:37 <evanpro> q?
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16:28:41 <AnnBassetti_> .... the further we get into the Rec process, the more rigorous it is; hard to add new stuff; good to put those things on Wish List
16:28:57 <AnnBassetti_> ... then work on those things when re-chartering subsequent work
16:29:26 <AnnBassetti_> ... really helpful to have a wish list for future opportunities
16:29:27 <evanpro> ack EdK
16:29:55 <AnnBassetti_> Ed Krebs (Ford): reviewed notes from earlier work ...
16:30:06 <Arnaud> ack harry
16:30:15 <AnnBassetti_> ... we might want to add PubSubHub onto Wish List .. or IG to discuss
16:31:36 <AnnBassetti_> q+
16:31:57 <evanpro> ack AnnBassetti_
16:32:29 <tantek> tantek has joined #social
16:33:04 <lehawes> q+
16:34:31 <Arnaud> ack lehawes
16:34:32 <AnnBassetti_> Tantek: gives kudos to Sandro Hawke as Indie developer
16:34:34 <harry> +1 sandro
16:34:56 <tantek> greetings #social!
16:35:02 <jasnell> q+
16:35:07 <jeff> jeff has joined #social
16:35:09 <harry> note that folks can dial -in - also, is KevinMarks stopping by?
16:35:27 <AnnBassetti_> Larry Hawes: could you give us guidance on Use Cases needed for social data syntax?
16:35:43 <AnnBassetti_> ... since a lot of that work has been done
16:36:02 <jeff> present+ jeff
16:36:16 <AnnBassetti_> Evan: yes; a lot of preconception that we'd end up with Activity Streams
16:36:49 <AnnBassetti_> ... not sure what value Use Cases would add at this point ... maybe as validation
16:36:50 <EdK> sidenote - most of my Use Case work tries to focus more on federation related issues, moreso than syntax/activity streams
16:37:07 <Arnaud> ack jasnell
16:37:41 <AnnBassetti_> James Snell:  we don't have very clear use cases for <I missed which>
16:38:02 <AnnBassetti_> ... Need:  what is a social profile in activity stream
16:38:13 <AnnBassetti_> Larry:  yes, that's what we've focused on
16:38:32 <AnnBassetti_> James: is there a minimal set of social objects we need to provide
16:38:58 <jasnell> Ann... was saying that we need use cases and requirements for the additional vocabularies beyond basic activities
16:39:16 <jasnell> for instance, what is the vocabulary for a "social profile"
16:39:24 <AnnBassetti_> Arnaud: yes, we inherited this work, so are sort of coming up with solution before defining the problem ..
16:39:25 <jasnell> how do we describe people, and the objects acted upon, etc
16:39:39 <AnnBassetti_> ... but still useful to define use cases as documentation, validation,
16:39:47 <AnnBassetti_> Larry: and also 'gap analysis'
16:39:55 <lehawes> q-
16:40:05 <AnnBassetti_> Lloyd; use case a few years ago re: describing pictures
16:40:10 <AnnBassetti_> ... what happened?
16:40:27 <AnnBassetti_> Evan:  SWOT 0 (??)
16:40:47 <jasnell> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/federatedsocialweb/wiki/SWAT0
16:40:52 <elf-pavlik> Wed session Social WG + Schema.org may have some relevance to broader vocabulary(ies) https://www.w3.org/wiki/TPAC2014/SessionIdeas#Schema.org_and_Social_WG
16:40:59 <AnnBassetti_> ... Social Web Acid Test
16:41:22 <jasnell> q+
16:41:33 <AnnBassetti_> s/SWOT 0 (??)/SWAT0
16:42:05 <Arnaud> ack jasnell
16:42:12 <tantek> tantek has changed the topic to: Social Web WG: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg - Next meeting agenda: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2014-10-27 - logs: http://socialwg.indiewebcamp.com/irc/social/today
16:42:13 <EdK> SWAT Zero - first use case from federated summit
16:42:42 <AnnBassetti_> James: describes basic use case
16:42:49 <EdK> multiple actors who have accounts on multiple services
16:43:02 <AnnBassetti_> ... 6 basic steps
16:43:39 <jasnell> the link is : http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/federatedsocialweb/wiki/SWAT0
16:43:40 <AnnBassetti_> Lloyd:  sounds like something the IG should include in our list
16:44:02 <jasnell> :-)
16:44:09 <tantek> Note that SWAT0 is a FOUR YEAR OLD use-case
16:44:48 <AnnBassetti_> Evan:  there are a lot of other use cases that could be detailed out of that one
16:44:57 <tantek> see also: http://indiewebcamp.com/SWAT0
16:46:45 <dromasca> Evan: initiate and end subscriptions, approve, etc. - complex space
16:47:24 <elf-pavlik> who asked question?
16:47:30 <AnnBassetti_> Lloyd: do we have preference for business-oriented use cases vs more purely social use cases
16:47:37 <Shane> I like the way SWAT0 works, covers a lot of problems all at once without having a massive list
16:47:39 <wy> wy has joined #social
16:47:42 <AnnBassetti_> Arnaud:  2 diff constituencies here
16:47:45 <jasnell> q+
16:47:55 <AnnBassetti_> ... we should be equal; a lot of shared requirements
16:48:04 <EdK> q+
16:48:08 <dromasca> Arnaud: SAT - the only uc that was voted about
16:48:36 <dromasca> s/SAT/SWAT
16:48:37 <Loqi> dromasca meant to say: Arnaud: SWAT - the only uc that was voted about
16:48:49 <Arnaud> ack jasnell
16:49:01 <AnnBassetti_> Evan:  there are some refinements for the business use cases
16:49:23 <AnnBassetti_> James: would be interesting to describe what addtional requirements are need for business use cases
16:49:27 <AnnBassetti_> +1
16:49:43 <AnnBassetti_> Lloyd:  might be like a road map
16:50:57 <Arnaud> q?
16:51:18 <Arnaud> ack EdK
16:51:28 <dromasca> Ann: add 'approval' chain as business dimension of consumer use case
16:51:30 <AnnBassetti_> Ed:  recruiting is a cross-over use case ..
16:51:31 <tantek> q+ to say, plenty of space on the wiki to document new use-cases as part of the social web IG
16:51:46 <AnnBassetti_> I was saying there are added levels of complexity on business side
16:52:23 <Arnaud> ack tantek
16:52:23 <Zakim> tantek, you wanted to say, plenty of space on the wiki to document new use-cases as part of the social web IG
16:53:18 <jasnell> Question: How many of these business use cases/requirements actually involve interop/federation across application or organization boundaries? Are these things that the WG needs to standardize?
16:53:28 <AnnBassetti_> Tantek:  I'm not convinced there are such strong distinctions
16:53:50 <dromasca> tantek: pls. document social business ucs on wiki
16:53:57 <evanpro> q?
16:55:29 <lehawes> I strongly second tantek's plea to document any use case on the wiki. Starting point is http://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialig/Use_Case_TF
16:55:54 <AnnBassetti_> Tantek: glad we've got Activity Streams out there as public draft .. and call for exclusions
16:55:57 <jeff> jeff has joined #social
16:56:31 <AnnBassetti_> ... we need better documentation on use cases for Activity Streams .. both to add and to subtract components from AS
16:56:40 <dromasca> q+
16:57:13 <AnnBassetti_> ... esp important to document use cases for components of Activity Streams that are important for you
16:57:24 <AnnBassetti_> ... to ensure it gets kept in
16:57:28 <elf-pavlik> +1 for backing all features with a use case requring it
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16:58:03 <AnnBassetti_> ... AS defined as nouns / verbs / objecgts
16:58:16 <AnnBassetti_> ... in IndieWeb camp we discovered we only needed nouns
16:58:31 <AnnBassetti_> Ann: how did you get rid of verbs?
16:58:49 <jasnell> q+
16:59:54 <Arnaud> ack dromasca
17:00:14 <tantek> AnnBassetti: you asked for documentation see: http://indiewebcamp.com/ActivityStreams#Verbs_vs_just_posts for example
17:01:04 <AnnBassetti_> Dan Romascanu: <sorry I can't hear>
17:01:24 <MarkCrawford> q+
17:01:24 <lehawes> q+
17:02:12 <AnnBassetti_> ... asking about how WG approves or selects use cases
17:02:37 <harry> q+
17:03:08 <AnnBassetti_> Arnaud:  at the end, every feature in the spec must have minimum 2 implementations
17:03:31 <harry> q- harry
17:03:38 <AnnBassetti_> ... also, at the end, if there is a feature that no one wants to implement, that can be an important cue
17:03:48 <Arnaud> ack jasnell
17:04:00 <harry> q- jasnell
17:04:00 <Arnaud> ack MarkCrawford
17:04:22 <dromasca> question about how use cases are filtered and consolidated - Arnaud: WG will select a list of pointers to use cases from the IG
17:05:23 <AnnBassetti_> Mark Crawford:  IG has in charter, reqt to deliver Use Case report  ,,, NOT to support WG, but rather to describe social business .. which is broader than what WG focus is
17:05:30 <AnnBassetti_> ... may use diff formats
17:05:56 <Arnaud> ack lehawes
17:06:32 <AnnBassetti_> Larry:  initial focus for IG use cases has been profiles, due to WG focus, but then we'll broaden into others
17:06:34 <lehawes> q-
17:06:35 <AnnBassetti_> <break>
17:06:53 <elf-pavlik> thank you AnnBassetti_ for scribing!!!
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17:25:30 <jasnell> For those not here in person, I'm going to be showing http://tpac.mybluemix.net/index.html on the screen here once we're back from the break
17:25:56 <elf-pavlik> thx jasnell !
17:26:20 <tantek> tantek has joined #social
17:26:23 <jasnell> (warning.. only tested in chrome and firefox ;-) ... sorry ie)
17:28:10 <harry> note we're on break now
17:28:16 <harry> will be restarting in 5 min.
17:28:43 <jtauber> jtauber has joined #social
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17:35:16 <evanpro> scribenick: evanpro
17:35:28 <tantek> talky.io/socialwg is live - someone want to try it out?
17:35:59 <evanpro> jasnell will present overview of status of AS 2.0
17:36:15 <evanpro> Will talk about where we were with 1.0, what's changed with 2.0, what 2.0 looks like, what we need to do
17:36:35 <evanpro> http://tpac.mybluemix.net/index.html
17:36:55 <evanpro> Simple activity: actor, verb, object
17:36:57 <elf-pavlik> tantek, I get "We could not get access to your microphone or camera." and only 'Take me back' button
17:37:01 <evanpro> No i18n, no language context
17:37:06 <evanpro> But can get basic info across
17:37:09 <evanpro> flat namespace
17:37:14 <evanpro> 2.0 activity
17:37:25 <evanpro> additional context
17:37:33 <evanpro> @id for id, some other info
17:37:43 <evanpro> In 1.0 MediaLink objects
17:37:52 <evanpro> url used inconsistently in 1.0
17:37:55 <evanpro> "url"
17:38:03 <evanpro> Never really clearly defined what it points to
17:38:06 <Lloyd_Fassett> Lloyd_Fassett has joined #social
17:38:10 <tantek> elf-pavlik: talky is two way so we can see who is watching
17:38:24 <evanpro> Limited set of properties for MediaLink: height, width, mediaType
17:38:46 <evanpro> AS 1.0 base schema with common verb and object type definitions
17:39:14 <evanpro> e.g. person, video
17:39:28 <tantek> greetings folks on Talky - could you introduce yourselves in IRC?
17:39:28 <evanpro> embedCode for HTML version of the item
17:39:41 <Zakim> -elf-pavlik
17:39:56 <tantek> Talky users - how's the audio quality?
17:40:00 <evanpro> Use cases in base schema were either concrete or not very concrete
17:40:11 <elf-pavlik> tantek, ok-ish
17:40:11 <evanpro> Not everything took off as implementable
17:40:16 <elf-pavlik> i think better than SIP
17:40:22 <tantek> great!
17:40:30 <tantek> better than SIP is an improvement :)
17:40:31 <evanpro> geolocation defined in base schema 1.0 became core in 2.0
17:40:32 <elf-pavlik> thx tantek! :)
17:40:35 <evanpro> Priority e.g.
17:40:36 <tantek> np elf-pavlik
17:40:44 <evanpro> Most of base schema is not yet in AS 2.0 vocabulary
17:41:07 <evanpro> Many verbs from basic schema 1.0 are in use by processors today
17:41:18 <evanpro> Do we need standard identifiers for verbs?
17:41:38 <elf-pavlik> can i get link to your AS1.0 feeds? :)
17:41:51 <evanpro> 4 people implement activity streams
17:41:56 <evanpro> 2 consuming, 4 publishing
17:42:04 <tantek> AS 1.0 ^^^^
17:42:34 <tantek> 1 consuming implementation is only behind a firewall
17:43:00 <evanpro> List of implementers are on the wiki
17:43:07 <evanpro> Changes from 1.0
17:43:25 <tantek> for the record - at the meeting for consming, only jasnell and evanpro raised their hands.
17:43:31 <evanpro> http://tpac.mybluemix.net/whatsnew.html
17:43:34 <tantek> s/consming/consuming
17:43:35 <Loqi> tantek meant to say: for the record - at the meeting for consuming, only jasnell and evanpro raised their hands.
17:44:42 <Zakim> disconnecting the lone participant, Salon2, in Team_(social)15:19Z
17:44:43 <Zakim> Team_(social)15:19Z has ended
17:44:43 <Zakim> Attendees were Salon2, elf-pavlik
17:44:56 <harry> elf-pavlik, you want to dial back in?
17:45:00 <harry> anyone else?
17:45:12 <elf-pavlik> harry, i stick to talky for now :)
17:45:21 <harry> ok.
17:45:48 <evanpro> evan asks: some mechanisms for 1.0 to 2.0 compatibility around media type
17:46:11 <evanpro> tantek: asks no backward compatibility for XML version?
17:46:14 <evanpro> jasnell: no
17:46:43 <evanpro> XML version never made it to 1.0
17:46:53 <evanpro> Added elements: inReplyTo, replies
17:47:02 <evanpro> audience targetting: to, bto, cc, bcc
17:47:07 <evanpro> priority
17:47:12 <evanpro> location
17:48:08 <evanpro> tantek: to be fair, I'm consuming from many clients, see https://github.com/e14n/pump.io/wiki/Clients
17:48:18 <tantek> I'm only supporting publishing AS 1.0 / XML FWIW
17:48:33 <tantek> because it was easy to add it to my existing Atom feed
17:48:36 <evanpro> changed options, include "duration"
17:48:42 <tantek> have not done the work to try to publish any JSON AS
17:48:44 <evanpro> tags and attachments changed to singular
17:49:04 <wilkie> rstatus only supports AS 1.0 through XML too :/
17:49:07 <evanpro> 2.0 supports language map
17:49:23 <evanpro> wilkie: I believe it's the same for GNU Social and Diaspora
17:49:38 <tantek> wilkie AS/XML solidarity!
17:49:43 <wilkie> yay!
17:49:46 <tantek> :)
17:49:51 <evanpro> height and width are pixels
17:50:09 <evanpro> upstream/downstreamDuplicates are deprecated
17:50:30 <wilkie> I am writing the JSON stuff though to catch up. :) the new backend code produces AS 1.0 json but doesn't consume/discover it just yet.
17:50:30 <elf-pavlik> I didn't hear question
17:51:04 <AnnBassetti_> Sandro asked how language here relates to language in json-ld
17:51:05 <evanpro> Sandro asks what the relationship is between language in AS 2.0 and JSON-LD language
17:51:08 <Lloyd_Fassett_> Lloyd_Fassett_ has joined #social
17:51:13 <tantek> evanpro - could you minute question?
17:51:29 <elf-pavlik> https://github.com/jasnell/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/issues/21
17:51:36 <evanpro> jasnell replies that there is additional language support in AS 2.0 since not all processors will support JSON-LD language
17:52:04 <evanpro> Example: unmapped verbs
17:52:54 <evanpro> With unmapped verbs like "post", these become skolems in JSON-LD
17:53:06 <evanpro> can add some verb namespace to avoid this problem
17:53:18 <evanpro> By adding context
17:53:38 <evanpro> Another example shows expanded actors or object
17:53:42 <evanpro> multiple actors and object
17:53:51 <evanpro> actors and objects referred to just by ID
17:53:57 <evanpro> object using the link class
17:54:11 <evanpro> "Link" class means that object is dereferenceable
17:54:46 <evanpro> and has a representation by the given media type
17:54:55 <evanpro> "multiple types"
17:55:12 <evanpro> Link (= dereferenceable) and "Blog Post" (= role)
17:55:29 <evanpro> Can use multiple vocabularies using JSON-LD
17:55:34 <evanpro> e.g. vCard
17:56:15 <evanpro> Actually call out "vcard:" prefix for non-JSON-LD processors
17:57:08 <evanpro> AS relies on other vocabularies
17:57:20 <Lloyd_Fassett_> q+
17:57:37 <evanpro> tantek asks where namespace expansion happens
17:57:57 <evanpro> jasnell says, it's part of the JSON-LD process, using the "@context" property
17:58:38 <Lloyd_Fassett_> q-
17:58:40 <evanpro> how do we use microformats ontologies in the JSON-LD
17:59:00 <AnnBassetti_> Lloyd asked if skills are represented .. .
17:59:03 <AnnBassetti_> answer: no
17:59:20 <tantek> note that the w3c vcard namespace is old vcard3. there is vcard4 now. and h-card
17:59:27 <tantek> which is based on vcard4
17:59:27 <MarkCrawford> MarkCrawford has joined #social
17:59:53 <evanpro> simple collections: using AS 1.0 similar links
18:00:02 <elf-pavlik> Q: do you use different URI for collecition and its first page?
18:00:04 <evanpro> geolocation using W3C geo basic
18:00:29 <evanpro> geolocation using GeoSPARQL is also possible
18:00:39 <hadleybeeman> hadleybeeman has joined #social
18:01:06 <evanpro> example of attachment, similar to email
18:01:40 <AdamB> AdamB has joined #social
18:01:40 <evanpro> Simple link: example 14
18:01:52 <evanpro> "rel" is issue for JSON-LD
18:02:27 <elf-pavlik> thx jasnell
18:03:04 <evanpro> jasnell responds to question: yes, we do have different identifiers per page and for the collection
18:03:12 <evanpro> language example:
18:03:29 <evanpro> "language" defines default language context for all properties
18:03:39 <AnnBassetti> <Tantek gives brief overview to talky.io .. noting that we're seeing elf-pavlik, and he sees at least part of the room>
18:03:57 <evanpro> This doesn't come through to JSON-LD
18:04:04 <evanpro> Since "@language" only attaches to a property
18:04:21 <evanpro> Can also add "@context" to "@language"
18:04:28 <AnnBassetti> s/question: yes,/elf's question: yes,/
18:04:29 <Loqi> AnnBassetti meant to say: <Tantek gives brief overview to talky.io .. noting that we're seeing elf-pavlik, and he sees at least part of the room>
18:04:43 <evanpro> Question: how easy do we want this to be for non-JSON-LD consumers?
18:04:52 <evanpro> AnnBassetti: logging bot for this channel
18:05:02 <tantek> wseltzer arrives
18:05:37 <evanpro> @context allows us to declare separate properties which can have default language
18:05:44 <evanpro> So "displayName_en"
18:05:48 <evanpro> AnnBassetti: yes
18:06:39 <evanpro> Need a better solution for language context
18:06:59 <elf-pavlik> could someone pleaes type questions to IRC?
18:07:00 <evanpro> Sandro points out that we need to have a review at Last Call for i18n
18:07:08 <elf-pavlik> thx :)
18:07:29 <evanpro> jasnell points out that there will be a11y issues here too
18:07:38 <evanpro> AnnBassetti points out naming conventions issue
18:07:48 <evanpro> e.g. family name and individual name
18:08:46 <AnnBassetti> See Richard Ishida's excellent article:  http://www.w3.org/International/questions/qa-personal-names
18:09:00 <evanpro> dromasca asks accessibility, via language analysis
18:09:04 <AnnBassetti> he is lead of  i18n activity in W3C
18:09:18 <evanpro> jasnell says much of the use case is JSON -> HTML
18:09:28 <evanpro> e.g. does a link need alt text
18:09:28 <AnnBassetti> i18n = "internationalization" ... 1st and last letters, with 18 letters in-between
18:09:35 <elf-pavlik> comment: possible issues with using as:alias to reference other resources (instead their @id) https://github.com/jasnell/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/issues/25
18:10:19 <evanpro> Note on slides: http://tpac.mybluemix.net/ are up for review
18:10:44 <evanpro> todos: activitystrea.ms possible to use as ns:
18:10:51 <evanpro> Not a lot using the 2.0 namespace
18:11:05 <evanpro> Question around namespace URI: use dates or not?
18:11:31 <evanpro> Another question: backwards compatibility?
18:11:41 <evanpro> Use a namespace for 1.0 base schema?
18:12:20 <barnabywalters> barnabywalters has joined #social
18:13:08 <tantek> welcome barnabywalters - is that you we see on talky?
18:13:08 <evanpro> tantek asks, can we kick this question of NS to someone else?
18:13:14 <barnabywalters> greetings tantek!
18:13:19 <barnabywalters> yup, that’s me
18:13:21 <evanpro> evan asks, do we have authority to mint namespaces in /ns/
18:13:30 <tantek> barnabywalters joins via talky
18:13:32 <evanpro> sandro answers, and Arnaud confirms: yes
18:13:35 <elf-pavlik> hi barnabywalters o/
18:13:43 <barnabywalters> hi elf-pavlik!
18:14:54 <evanpro> sandro questions whether "/" or "#" should end the namespace
18:14:55 <Shane> Shane has joined #social
18:14:58 <harry> The hash versus slash debate is preventing the Semantic Web from creating the singularity, BTW
18:15:01 <harry> for 15 years!
18:15:09 <evanpro> One document with a hash, or multiple documents?
18:15:15 <elf-pavlik> +1 # :D
18:15:22 <wilkie> +0 :)
18:15:26 <harry> www.example.org/ns#term
18:15:28 <dret> dret has joined #social
18:15:30 <harry> www.example.org/ns/term
18:15:48 <nvdbleek> nvdbleek has joined #social
18:16:08 <sandro>  http://example.com/activitystreams/verb
18:16:11 <evanpro> this would need to go to the JSON-LD context document per jasnell
18:16:11 <sandro>  http://example.com/activitystreams#verb
18:16:18 <jtauber> jtauber has joined #social
18:16:30 <harry> +1
18:16:35 <jasnell> http://www.w3.org/ns/activitystreams#
18:16:41 <deiu> deiu has joined #social
18:16:48 <evanpro> PROPOSED: adoption of "http://www.w3.org/ns/activitystreams#" as namespace for Activity Streams 2.0
18:16:53 <jasnell> +1
18:16:54 <deiu> +1
18:16:54 <sandro> +1
18:16:55 <harry> +1
18:16:55 <MarkCrawford> +1
18:16:56 <rhiaro> +1
18:16:58 <elf-pavlik> +1
18:16:58 <dret> +1
18:17:03 <EdK> +1
18:17:03 <AdamB> +1
18:17:12 <dromasca> +1
18:17:16 <sandro> jtauber: +1
18:17:26 <evanpro> +1
18:17:33 <harry> any objections?
18:17:36 <jtauber_> jtauber_ has joined #social
18:17:38 <wilkie> +1
18:17:42 <evanpro> RESOLVED: adoption of "http://www.w3.org/ns/activitystreams#" as namespace for Activity Streams 2.0
18:17:55 <evanpro> closing this issue
18:18:14 <evanpro> jasnell continues, what to do with base schema 1.0
18:18:32 <evanpro> Does need to be heavily influenced by use cases
18:19:43 <Morbus> Morbus has joined #social
18:20:22 <AnnBassetti> Evan: as an Activity Streams implementer .. I can say that most of the verbs here are core to what happens in social software (follow, join, ...)
18:20:30 <AnnBassetti> ... others not so much
18:20:57 <AnnBassetti> ... questions if it makes sense to define a core schema, with others more tangential
18:21:32 <AnnBassetti> Tantek: to counter Evan's point, many implementations discovered they could make those verbs into nouns
18:22:06 <evanpro> jasnell says everything becomes a noun for IBM too
18:22:07 <AnnBassetti> James: in IBM's experience, that's true re: nouns
18:22:21 <evanpro> Very frist version did not have verbs
18:22:22 <tantek> AnnBassetti: to be clear *every* implementation done by someone in the IndieWebCamp community. not just "most"
18:22:44 <tantek> numerous at this point - dozens
18:22:51 <evanpro> verb becomes optional
18:22:58 <evanpro> fall back on object type
18:23:27 <AnnBassetti> Sandro:  can you explain why you like verbs?
18:24:21 <AnnBassetti> Evan: more comfortable with activity referring to action / actor / object
18:24:29 <elf-pavlik> tantek, can you try reduce mic just a bit? it sounds link you have strong winds there ;)
18:24:44 <tantek> elf-pavlik: that might be the computer fan :/
18:25:28 <elf-pavlik> i don't think so, i just get thos FX after each word said
18:25:34 <barnabywalters> I think it’s just artifacts from a laptop mic being used to try to record an entire room
18:25:46 <tantek> barnabywalters: we're using the Logitech HD camera and mic
18:25:57 <tantek> I can reload and see if it helps
18:25:58 <barnabywalters> tantek: weird — compression artefacts maybe then?
18:26:14 <AnnBassetti> Ann: does this have to be decided now?
18:26:24 <AnnBassetti> Arnaud:  no, but we should open an issue
18:26:24 <tantek> barnabywalters, elf-pavlik just reloaded
18:26:42 <barnabywalters> now there are silent clones
18:27:09 <AnnBassetti> <name?> asks what was the advantage the IndieWeb folks got from this other syntax
18:27:15 <elf-pavlik> tantek, can we just try reducing mic sensitivity a little?
18:27:32 <AnnBassetti> ... this is largely a syntax issue, right?
18:27:38 <AnnBassetti> Tantek: good question
18:27:57 <AnnBassetti> ... we've been proceeding cautiously
18:28:22 <AnnBassetti> Sandro:  is it 1- or 2- degrees of freedom?
18:28:27 <evanpro> Likes, favorites, RSVPs, favorites all work as nouns
18:28:31 <AnnBassetti> ... we need 2, if they are truly orthogonal
18:29:29 <evanpro> question of whether the representation is the event versus the state of the world after the fact
18:29:37 <evanpro> transmission is a notification mechanism
18:29:41 <elf-pavlik> Q: can we consider schema.org approach with "@type": "LikeAction" similar to your noun approach? ( jasnell might have already said someting about it earlier)
18:30:01 <evanpro> "verb": "like" vs. "@type": "LikeAction"
18:30:21 <AnnBassetti> s/<name?>/James Tauber /
18:30:22 <Loqi> AnnBassetti meant to say: ... we need 2, if they are truly orthogonal
18:30:26 <Arnaud> ISSUE: Should we drop verbs and only use nouns/object type instead?
18:30:26 <trackbot> Created ISSUE-3 - Should we drop verbs and only use nouns/object type instead?.  Please complete additional details at <http://www.w3.org/Social/track/issues/3/edit>.
18:30:31 <elf-pavlik> https://github.com/jasnell/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/issues/23
18:30:39 <elf-pavlik> as:Verb & as:verb possibly not needed #23
18:31:20 <AdamB> CRUD
18:31:23 <sandro> CRUD = Create, Read, Update, Delete
18:34:17 <evanpro> evan asks if verb -> type has JSON-LD advantages
18:34:37 <evanpro> type and kind are different axes
18:34:50 <elf-pavlik> you can define properties with rdfs:domain and rdfs:range for subtypes
18:35:08 <elf-pavlik> see: http://schema.org/participant
18:35:11 <nvdbleek> nvdbleek has joined #social
18:35:18 <sandro> why not try to resolve the issue, if we have consensus
18:35:22 <jeff> jeff has joined #social
18:36:22 <evanpro> Implementation experience with indieweb has been that types can be implied
18:37:25 <harry> q+
18:37:42 <jeff_> jeff_ has joined #social
18:38:06 <Arnaud> ack harry
18:38:16 <evanpro> type can be implicit
18:38:27 <jtauber_> q+
18:38:43 <evanpro> objectType is not required for 1.0 as
18:38:48 <evanpro> some implementations use it, some don't
18:38:57 <harry> so as long as its not required and optional, we are OK if people end up using it implicitly
18:39:47 <evanpro> q+
18:40:15 <Arnaud> ack jtauber
18:40:20 <elf-pavlik> having types might make it esasier to filter them
18:40:21 <tantek> sandro asked for a mapping from properties to implied types - here's what we have so far in IndieWebCamp: http://indiewebcamp.com/posts#Inferring_post_kinds_from_properties
18:40:31 <evanpro> sandro asks if we can skip the typing
18:40:39 <evanpro> or mapping properties of types
18:40:56 <sandro> sandro: can we have an official machine-readable mapping from properties to the types they imply?
18:41:01 <evanpro> generic property name for indieweb s "in reply to"
18:41:27 <evanpro> RSVP has its own properties
18:41:33 <Arnaud> ack evanpro
18:41:36 <AnnBassetti> compared to re-posts
18:41:46 <tantek> RSVP has its own property with its own values
18:41:50 <dret> maybe that's a good case for postel's law? be strict in what you produce and liberal in what you accept? implied info makes systems robust but also a bit vulnerable to misinterpretations, right?
18:43:11 <sandro> evanpro: I prefer explicit types to inferred types
18:43:23 <evanpro> Question for social API endpoint receiving an activity as a command
18:43:45 <AnnBassetti> Tantek:  could we capture this as an issue?
18:44:12 <AnnBassetti> Arnaud:  what, exactly, is the issue?
18:44:20 <AnnBassetti> <discussion>
18:44:53 <elf-pavlik> sandro, would you see IndieWeb implicit types similar to rdfs:domain inference?
18:45:16 <evanpro> Is the typing implicit in the presence of a property or explicit in a type or "verb" property
18:45:26 <sandro> elf-pavlik, yes, but I don't think it's helpful to get into that in this group
18:45:32 <elf-pavlik> roger!
18:45:38 <jtauber_> jtauber: jtauber: explicit types allow more generic properties (if properties can be used to infer types AND we have explicit types then the property names have redundancy)
18:46:18 <ahdinosaur> ahdinosaur has joined #social
18:46:28 <elf-pavlik> hey ahdinosaur :D
18:46:37 <ahdinosaur> hey elf :)
18:47:08 <barnabywalters> one interesting side effect I’ve observed and discussed of having implicit types via properties is that a single post can have multiple “types” e.g. be a like and a comment at the same time
18:47:27 <barnabywalters> there are several people in the IWC community who regularly publish these types of posts
18:47:35 <Arnaud> ISSUE: Do we rely on explicit typing or support implicit typing based on explicit property names?
18:47:35 <trackbot> Created ISSUE-4 - Do we rely on explicit typing or support implicit typing based on explicit property names?.  Please complete additional details at <http://www.w3.org/Social/track/issues/4/edit>.
18:47:41 <elf-pavlik> "@type": ["LikeAction", "CommentAction"]
18:47:52 <elf-pavlik> barnabywalters, ^
18:48:18 <barnabywalters> elf-pavlik: that would probably be the AS equivalent — do any AS implementations actively publish or consume (i.e. display intelligently) activities like that?
18:48:34 <elf-pavlik> barnabywalters, AS1 didn't allow it
18:48:47 <elf-pavlik> http://tpac.mybluemix.net/whatsnew.html
18:48:56 <evanpro> harry points out that we can leave it and see what happens next
18:48:58 <barnabywalters> elf-pavlik: I don’t really care if it was *allowed*, I care who uses it ;)
18:49:29 <evanpro> Arnaud notes that it doesn't have to be one or the other
18:49:30 <Shane> barnabywalters++ Rules don't matter if people have a reason to ignore them
18:49:33 <Loqi> barnabywalters has 75 karma
18:49:51 <evanpro> Can use MUST, SHOULD, or MAY to switch between different options
18:50:09 <wilkie> people may want to use them because human beings are more creative than machines, and extensibility still matters
18:50:33 <evanpro> jasnell notes that we don't currently have a vocabulary of activities except 1.0 base schema
18:50:34 <barnabywalters> more specifically, the UIs which were used to create and display those activites
18:51:17 <wilkie> if people want to reduce social data to sludge because sludge is all protocol designers believe people need, more power to you :)
18:51:50 <tantek> wilkie - so far everything published by indiewebcamp implementations are *exactly* what *people* want to publish, not protocol designers
18:51:56 <tantek> exclusively so
18:51:59 <wilkie> less "here's what people do" and more "what can we do to handle people doing more without extensive changes to implementations?"
18:52:27 <wilkie> yeah, well, if your only benchmark is replicating a stream of tweets, then you'll get what you have, no kidding.
18:52:47 <tantek> wilkie - so far every different meaningful "type" has needed changes to implementations because its the UX of those implementations that matter in terms of different types
18:53:03 <tantek> wilkie - stream of tweets was IndieWeb 2010, we're well past that
18:53:10 <wilkie> no, if you don't understand a type, you can read the display name or content common to all types
18:53:21 <tantek> right, h-entry gives you that
18:53:26 <wilkie> then you filter by verb so that you only really try your best at reading 'post' activities
18:53:36 <tantek> "content common to all types" are the properties defined in h-entry
18:53:45 <wilkie> yes, there is a mapping
18:54:06 <tantek> so far implied-typing appears to the be things are evolving: http://indiewebcamp.com/posts#Inferring_post_kinds_from_properties
18:54:23 <wilkie> I really wish indie web cared about extensibility and interop instead of trying to tell everybody that they solved every problem because there is only one problem worth solving :P
18:54:33 <aaronpk> lol
18:54:40 <evanpro> sandro points out that subclassing
18:54:50 <wilkie> if only indie web were a community that wasn't so passive aggressive about how to do things right too
18:55:05 <wilkie> oh well. we'll get there in spite of it all, I'm fairly optimistic
18:55:33 <elf-pavlik> evanpro, can you please try to minute little more in IRC, i get pretty bad sound now :(
18:55:37 <tantek> wilkie - microformats2 is extensible - which is why the indiewebcamp community has been able to so easily add support for and implement new (implied) types
18:55:55 <evanpro> elf-pavlik: working on it
18:56:38 <tantek> wilkie - not sure what you mean about passive-aggressive - indiewebcamp is openly demanding of documentation of use-cases and selfdogfooding. even #social WG demands documentation of use-cases.
18:57:01 <evanpro> sandro points out that subclassing relationship ("love" is a subclass of "like") may benefit from using @type version propertyname ("likeOf", "loveOf") or verb "like" "love"
18:57:14 <evanpro> q?
18:57:16 <elf-pavlik> tantek, wilkie: can we plesae try to stick to the converation in a room? i really have hard time to follow now :'(
18:57:28 <Shane> Also it isn't about doing things right, it is about learning from experience. Just look at how webmentions are changing with vouch etc
18:58:32 <evanpro> tantek says that users don't differentiate between types of content, e.g. image and text
18:58:43 <evanpro> so text with attachment versus image with caption
18:59:44 <pfraze> pfraze has joined #social
19:00:05 <sandro> tantek: Sometimes the users don't know what the "type" is of what they're doing, so maybe explicit typing would be hard
19:00:36 <tantek> remote folks, we are breaking for lunch but will leave the camera on
19:00:38 <tantek> on talky
19:01:14 <jasnell> jasnell has joined #social
19:01:25 <elf-pavlik> tantek, can we try adjusting mic gain a bit
19:05:51 <timeless> timeless has joined #social
19:05:52 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'this meeting spans midnight <- if you want a single log for the two days', timeless.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
19:06:37 <timeless> timeless has left #social
19:07:40 <lehawes> quit
19:19:04 <Shane> Shane has joined #social
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19:29:17 <oshepherd_> WebRTC: Brand new and more reliable than SIP. The world we live in.
19:40:35 <rektide> i wish talky would let me in in spectator mode. i have no mic nor video on this laptop. "You are about to join a video chat" modal dialog on screen with "We could not get access to your microphone or camera"
19:43:16 <wilkie> same
19:46:09 <gRegor> I could hear you, barely, elf-pavlik
19:46:17 <gRegor> That's a bit better
19:48:25 <barnabywalters> barnabywalters has joined #social
19:51:13 <gRegor> very good, elf-pavlik
19:51:15 <nvdbleek> nvdbleek has joined #social
19:51:38 <gRegor> elf-pavlik: mic quality is better
19:53:26 <Shane> Shane has joined #social
19:55:24 <jasnell> jasnell has joined #social
19:56:16 <elf-pavlik> jasnell, could you please ask tantek when he comes back to reduce mic gain? we get a lot of artefacts in the sound :(
19:56:38 <dret> dret has joined #social
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20:00:31 <bblfish> bblfish has joined #social
20:01:23 <jasnell> elf: will do
20:01:26 <dromasca> dromasca has joined #social
20:01:42 <elf-pavlik> thx :)
20:02:29 <nvdbleek3> nvdbleek3 has joined #social
20:04:59 <Arnaud> Arnaud has joined #social
20:05:49 <Arnaud> still waiting for people to be back in the room
20:06:14 <EdK> some folks still returning from lunch, should be able to get started in about 5 minutes ((1;10pm Pacific)
20:06:40 <evanpro> Arnaud: http://evan.prodromou.name/files/TPAC-API/
20:10:12 <jasnell> jasnell has joined #social
20:10:32 <lehawes> Back from lunch :>)
20:10:44 <jasnell> Elf, tantek is not back yet. once he is I'll ask him about the mic gain
20:11:08 <Arnaud> about to start
20:11:52 <jasnell> hey Elf.. what time was that breakout session for wednesday supposed to be? do you remember?
20:12:03 <elf-pavlik> 9:15AM
20:12:03 <rektide> there's no alternative to the talky (which those of us without webconf broadcast gear can't use) ?
20:13:08 <elf-pavlik> rektide, we used Zakim before but talky had better sound
20:13:19 <elf-pavlik> which now doesn't work that well any more...
20:13:38 <lehawes> Arnaud: Do we know what time the IG presentation will be tomorrow morning?
20:14:09 <harry> harry has joined #social
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20:14:30 <gRegor> good, tantek
20:15:03 <gRegor> audio died
20:15:05 <harry> scribenick: harry
20:15:08 <claudio> claudio has joined #social
20:15:15 <harry> Zakim, call Salon1
20:15:15 <Zakim> sorry, harry, I don't know what conference this is
20:15:20 <gRegor> audio's back
20:15:29 <harry> topic: Social API
20:15:49 <harry> evanpro: Presenting slides and then open discussion
20:15:51 <gRegor> I'm the other person, lurking :)
20:15:53 <harry> ... this is next in deliverable list
20:16:41 <AnnBassetti> Evan presents slides re: Social API
20:17:21 <AnnBassetti> http://evan.prodromou.name/files/TPAC-API/
20:17:29 <harry> scribenick: Ann Bassetti
20:17:32 <barnabywalters> barnabywalters has joined #social
20:17:33 <harry> scribenick: AnnBassetti
20:17:59 <Lloyd_Fassett> I can take it
20:18:10 <AdamB> AdamB has joined #social
20:18:48 <Lloyd_Fassett> Issues" Cpmf;atopm pf AS amd E,bedded experiences /
20:18:49 <elf-pavlik> thx Lloyd_Fassett ! sometimes we get poor audio so minutes *help us a lot* to follow
20:19:15 <Lloyd_Fassett> Examples of Social API: Twitter / Facebook / OpenSocial
20:19:31 <Lloyd_Fassett> elf - can you see the slides?
20:19:42 <elf-pavlik> yes, i have them on second screen
20:20:28 <Lloyd_Fassett> If we can't make something that has a passing resemblance to these API's, we're on the wrong track.
20:20:49 <elf-pavlik> q+ re: Action Handlers / Hypermedia Controls / Hypermedia API
20:20:54 <jasnell> If it's helpful to folks, I can give a quick overview of how the OpenSocial spec is organized
20:21:09 <Lloyd_Fassett> We need reusable libraries, you should be able to point a social client at a new service and it should just work
20:21:27 <Lloyd_Fassett> It should be possible be to implement an API facade
20:22:04 <tantek> tantek has joined #social
20:22:25 <Lloyd_Fassett> Social API's manage social connections, publish content, manage responses..a light application platform
20:23:02 <elf-pavlik> tantek, if you have mic settings to reduce gain / boos just 10% or so it could reduce artifacs in sound ...
20:23:07 <Lloyd_Fassett> There's not just a one way follow, but a two way...join a group (manage circles), manage list of friends...manage a group of other accounts can be very useful
20:23:18 <Lloyd_Fassett> Larry Dawes: Does it need to be two way?
20:23:44 <Lloyd_Fassett> Evan: Twitter is one way, Facebook is two way, G+ is either
20:24:38 <Lloyd_Fassett> Social content publication management CRUD...should be able to handle basic types...not all services would handle all
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20:25:25 <Lloyd_Fassett> Responses: typically there is a way to manage responses: Like, vote, comment, reply, share..redistributing content to your followers
20:25:49 <Lloyd_Fassett> Social Applications: event invitations, polls, Q&A, Games, etc.
20:26:00 <elf-pavlik> AFAIK both IBM and Boing have Q&A systems
20:26:18 <Lloyd_Fassett> Models: 1. Command, 2. Resource.
20:26:51 <AdamB> Boeing does have an Q&A system
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20:27:50 <Lloyd_Fassett> Resource model is more common
20:28:04 <Lloyd_Fassett> represent URI's, use http to modify.
20:28:31 <Lloyd_Fassett> Example: post 'tantek' to a stream of information
20:28:48 <oshepherd> Important thing with resource model, syndicating activities is harder
20:28:58 <Lloyd_Fassett> You can have a uniform interface with this...get an endpoint.
20:29:03 <jasnell> jasnell has joined #social
20:29:12 <Lloyd_Fassett> downside is 'unfollowing' and other actions are harder to do
20:29:29 <Lloyd_Fassett> other models will take us off the beaten path of social software
20:30:08 <Lloyd_Fassett> non-JSON representation and non-RESTful are off the beaten path
20:30:16 <dret> q+
20:30:55 <Lloyd_Fassett> Proposals under discussion are Open Social - very command oreinted, http verbs against an AS
20:31:07 <Lloyd_Fassett> use Put to update elements in that stream
20:31:13 <Lloyd_Fassett> very nice straight forward API
20:31:33 <Lloyd_Fassett> We need to make some changes from current state of it.
20:32:09 <Lloyd_Fassett> Pump.io (Evan works on this) is a hybrid of command and resource.
20:32:26 <Lloyd_Fassett> I think we need more proposals, or start working on them internally
20:32:27 <tantek> bunch more on https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Social_API_candidates
20:32:54 <Lloyd_Fassett> we need endpoints
20:33:11 <Lloyd_Fassett> Tantek suggested micropub as an option to consider
20:33:31 <Lloyd_Fassett> We need to make a number of decions, we need to get on the path to resolving them.
20:33:39 <tantek> with existing multiple client and server micropub implementations
20:33:42 <Lloyd_Fassett> first is understanding embedded experience
20:34:08 <oshepherd> tantek: micropub is publish-only, no?
20:34:36 <Lloyd_Fassett> Embedded experiences is a nice system that works with Open Social, but we'll need a lot of work to get it going
20:34:40 <tantek> oshepherd: not sure what you mean? people are using it for CRUD for various post types - which is the core of social API as described
20:34:47 <harry> q+
20:34:58 <oshepherd> tantek: Micropub is a publishing API, doesn't let you fetch /your/ incoming stream
20:34:58 <jasnell> Our actions proposal addressees the embedded experiences stuff, separates it from the api
20:35:05 <Lloyd_Fassett> How deep does social API go in a application?
20:35:23 <tantek> oshepherd: you mean HTTP GET ?
20:35:31 <Lloyd_Fassett> What verbs and domain concepts should be supported, how extensibility is needed?
20:36:13 <Lloyd_Fassett> Other important issues that we may want to punt on are authentication, discovery (will you be able to take an identified user and discover endpoints / AS etc.)
20:36:14 <oshepherd> tantek: What I get with GET http://mypumpserver.com/api/username/inbox, i.e. the activities addressed at me and of everyone I'm following
20:36:48 <Lloyd_Fassett> Arnaud: Thank you Evan
20:36:51 <Arnaud> ack elf-pavlik
20:36:51 <Zakim> elf-pavlik, you wanted to discuss Action Handlers / Hypermedia Controls / Hypermedia API
20:36:53 <elf-pavlik> eg. http://www.hydra-cg.com/spec/latest/triple-pattern-fragments/#controls
20:36:55 <jtauber> q+
20:36:57 <elf-pavlik> "This hypermedia control must be present because there purposely does not exist a fixed URL format that servers of triple pattern fragments need to follow. This means that clients of triple pattern fragments must not need prior knowledge of a server, i.e., they must not assume a certain URL pattern. Instead, clients must interpret the hypermedia control in each triple pattern fragment in order to retrieve another fragment."
20:37:29 <elf-pavlik> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-socialweb/2014Sep/0044.html
20:37:40 <elf-pavlik> [Lecture] REST, Hypermedia, and the Semantic Gap: Why "RMM Level-3 REST" is not enough
20:38:23 <tantek> no existing hydra implementations for the record
20:38:38 <Lloyd_Fassett> Tantek: do you know implementation of that? Elf: no
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20:39:22 <Lloyd_Fassett> (I can't tell what Elf is saying)
20:39:38 <Lloyd_Fassett> Evan: that's wildly unlike any Social API's I talked about at the beginning
20:40:05 <Lloyd_Fassett> those typically have well defined URL's.  I don't know what the starting point would be if we don't give structure to URLs.
20:40:21 <Lloyd_Fassett> Elf: you can sense it in the header.
20:40:24 <Lloyd_Fassett> Evan: how?
20:40:37 <Lloyd_Fassett> (I didn't understand answer)
20:41:16 <Lloyd_Fassett> James: when he said page collection, you're going to have a number of links...you need a template...if the API is a follow your nose
20:41:35 <Lloyd_Fassett> every response includes information about the object
20:42:03 <Lloyd_Fassett> Evan: If I were creating a client, I'd ask for an entry point and then there would be a discovery process.  Is that right
20:42:06 <Lloyd_Fassett> Elf: yes
20:42:19 <Lloyd_Fassett> James: This is the usecase for Webfinger
20:42:21 <tantek> q+ to go through the slides and make comments, slide by slide
20:42:35 <Lloyd_Fassett> Evan: link relations, on page or in header
20:42:47 <Arnaud> ack dret
20:42:52 <Lloyd_Fassett> Eric: I am from (didn't hear)
20:43:00 <AnnBassetti> Siemens
20:43:06 <AnnBassetti> (I think)
20:43:07 <Lloyd_Fassett> Evan when you say API is it http?
20:43:11 <Lloyd_Fassett> Evan: yes
20:43:21 <tantek> re: Webfinger - it conflates user URLs vs API URLs which I think is a problem. we've found it better to use h-card for user URL discovery, and <link> etc. HTTP LINK header for API URL discovery.
20:43:43 <Lloyd_Fassett> Evan: we have a lose definition in our charter.  We have a lot of pressure to do http restful api, if we don't, we have to explain why
20:43:49 <elf-pavlik> Hypermedia API = full REST API
20:44:20 <Lloyd_Fassett> Eric: since AS are http based, how is Social API different?  HOw do they relate?
20:44:30 <tantek> FWIW - we have found that the "static site generation" use-case (which numerous people do), makes REST impossible, so we have dumped strict REST
20:44:32 <Lloyd_Fassett> AS is a data format
20:44:53 <oshepherd> tantek: I think I've mentioned this already, but in the draft I'm going to bring shortly, WebFinger is used *only* for mapping acct:username@domain URIs into dereferencable objects and nothing else :-)
20:44:55 <Lloyd_Fassett> Eric: with links in it
20:45:21 <Lloyd_Fassett> Eric: I think a RESTful api with AS where things are posted/put is close to what is in our charter.  Does that make sense?
20:45:25 <nicolagreco> nicolagreco has joined #social
20:45:29 <tantek> oshepherd: in that case, we have in the simple case that you can skip webfinger and just use the user's URL to get their representative h-card and go from there
20:45:36 <tantek> there's no actual need for webfinger
20:45:38 <elf-pavlik> http://martinfowler.com/articles/richardsonMaturityModel.html
20:45:43 <Lloyd_Fassett> Eric: You need a relative mapping to explain how other social sites show up
20:45:44 <oshepherd> tantek: Backwards compatibility with user@domain URIs?
20:46:06 <tantek> such folks have profile URLs - done
20:46:06 <sandro> q+ sandro to point out that API in the charter is not this
20:46:36 <Lloyd_Fassett> Evan: That's not where I was going with that.  There are a number of API's...http based mostly using JSON that have patterns so you can see your followers, your activity
20:46:58 <Lloyd_Fassett> Eric: the goal is not to have a Social API....
20:47:23 <Lloyd_Fassett> Evan: I think there is a great possibility of doing that....the API could talk to Facebook etc on the back end.
20:47:42 <Lloyd_Fassett> Evan: we'd have a social network server to handle that.
20:47:43 <wilkie> I've found that people will debate whether or not an '@' or a '/' is better until the sun cools
20:47:45 <Arnaud> q?
20:47:52 <Lloyd_Fassett> Tanktek:  A social proxy server
20:48:04 <tantek> wilkie - turns out people that actually post on the web have a URL for their profile
20:48:22 <tantek> so if they're debating it on the web, they're already using a '/'
20:48:31 <tantek> we can judge by actions rather than words
20:48:34 <wilkie> they're just URIs that map identities. webfinger's a little more indirect, so it might be better for service migration, but meh. whooooo caaaaarrrreeees. it's not like webfinger is HARD or anything.
20:48:36 <Lloyd_Fassett> Arnaud: adding use cases for this would be useful.  We all come with different backgrounds.  IT's important to explain where you are coming from so people know where you are coming from.
20:48:57 <tantek> hard or not, webfinger is unnecessary. YAGNI = people don't bother implementing at scale.
20:49:00 <Arnaud> ack harry
20:49:02 <Lloyd_Fassett> Arnaud: Even terminology is an issue
20:49:03 <wilkie> tantek: we can say 'turns out' this and that and point to our userbases allllll day. we'll both be correct. we have seen all of these things. that's why they exist.
20:49:10 <oshepherd> tantek: Its' 1 trivial web request if the user who you're attempting to follow has a user@domain URI. Boohoo
20:49:37 <tantek> a lot of what's been done in indiewebcamp protocols / formats is drop a lot of "1 trivial X"
20:49:37 <sandro> q+ sandro2 to ask whether anyone has a solid proposal for a Resource-style API (because I'm somewhat skeptical that all activities map to this style)
20:49:43 <elf-pavlik> folks, let's leave webfinger in peace for today, it makes it really hard to follow if we have 2 parallel conversations :(
20:49:45 <Lloyd_Fassett> Harry: I think we have time for James Snell to present to talk about embedded experience
20:49:50 <Loqi> aww, cheer up
20:49:54 <tantek> dropping a lot of 1 trivial x type stuff = more publishers and more implementations
20:50:15 <jasnell> Can definitely give an embedded experience overview
20:50:21 <tantek> if you like webfinger, great, implement it on your own site
20:50:22 <Lloyd_Fassett> Harry: Authentication is out of scope. It is being recharged in another WG.  We expect new charters by early 2015.
20:50:30 <tantek> I'm just pointing out trends towards minimalism
20:50:58 <elf-pavlik> q?
20:51:48 <Lloyd_Fassett> Harry: What we can use today, longer term thinking, assign JSON payloads, if we need to do digital signatures...do it the ITF way, The CRG...if you're into digital signatures...don't worry there will be ways to do that are supported by browsers.
20:51:59 <Lloyd_Fassett> Harry: public test suites by the end of Dec.
20:52:41 <shepazu> shepazu has joined #social
20:53:14 <Lloyd_Fassett> Harry: Tanket IETF: SSL issue brings process into  question
20:53:18 <evanpro> q+
20:53:20 <elf-pavlik> Lloyd_Fassett, thanks for scribing!!! with current audio i can only read...
20:54:11 <elf-pavlik> so all in Lloyd_Fassett hands (literaly) :)
20:54:32 <Lloyd_Fassett> Harry: rolling your own crypto and signatures is a bad idea.  For discovery it's the same thing.  Things that have been tried include Host meta, webfinger, Mike Jone's version. Look at IETF for the work they've done
20:54:52 <dret> speak up, everybody!
20:55:01 <Arnaud> ack jtauber
20:55:25 <dromasca> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-anima/
20:55:29 <Lloyd_Fassett> James: when we were talking about verbs and syntatics...events vs states...is that the same as commands vs resources?
20:55:44 <dromasca> charter on the iesg table for approval as we speal
20:55:48 <dromasca> speak
20:55:57 <elf-pavlik> dromasca, link?
20:56:31 <Lloyd_Fassett> Evan: answer: no.  Who has looked at Open Social API?  (3 hands). It has a single place where you expect Activities, like ATOM.  The command model is to fire new activities at that end point.
20:56:43 <Lloyd_Fassett> James: they could represent either?
20:56:46 <Lloyd_Fassett> Evan: yes
20:57:19 <Lloyd_Fassett> Evan: the idea of a resources model where you get a collection of objects, if I was going to get that same information from AS I'd go through the stream
20:57:45 <Lloyd_Fassett> James: The handling of deletion...it's a version of a state...you'd need to know all the events.
20:57:55 <Lloyd_Fassett> Evan: Yes, it's a hard way to manage that mechanism
20:58:29 <Lloyd_Fassett> Evan: One nice thing about that structure is that it's simple and we can publish quickly, but we'd be kicking the deeper issue into the future
20:58:47 <Arnaud> q?
20:59:02 <Lloyd_Fassett> James: It's basically the ATOM model.  While we can get so far with that approach, this is signicantly better
20:59:27 <Lloyd_Fassett> James: you could provide both current state and audit streams
20:59:57 <Lloyd_Fassett> EdKrebs: in  business lense you need some persistence.  In current public state you don't.
21:00:08 <Arnaud> ack tantek
21:00:08 <Zakim> tantek, you wanted to go through the slides and make comments, slide by slide
21:00:12 <Lloyd_Fassett> James: this is good for use case work
21:00:17 <jasnell> Lloyd... There are two james' :) James s. And James t.
21:00:31 <Lloyd_Fassett> thank you.
21:00:44 <jtauber> jasnell: we can't even say the left-handed one ;-)
21:00:58 <elf-pavlik> which page?
21:01:16 <Lloyd_Fassett> Tantek: embedding is a different beast than CRUD.
21:01:24 <oshepherd> tantek+1 on this
21:01:42 <dret> for an interesting approach how to persist events such as deletion, https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6721 (authored by james, btw) might be interesting to look at.
21:01:55 <Lloyd_Fassett> Evan: one thing about embedded experience with embedded streams is perscibed by the activity generator.
21:02:33 <Lloyd_Fassett> Tantek: I thought managing connections vs CRUD interesting...push semantics down into the format.
21:02:44 <Lloyd_Fassett> Jasnell: that gets back to the Resource model
21:02:51 <elf-pavlik> evanpro, could you type into IRC nr or title of discussed page?
21:03:14 <evanpro> http://evan.prodromou.name/files/TPAC-API/
21:03:27 <evanpro> But I'm not scribing right now
21:03:42 <oshepherd> tantek: Audio/video posting from browser... easy if you're just uploading premade files...
21:03:43 <elf-pavlik> evanpro, but you control slides in a room? we just need page nr to follow
21:03:58 <Lloyd_Fassett> Tantek: Video and Audio are hard.  Mobile browser support is not working.  If we can do Text and Image, Vid and Aud are versions of the first two.
21:04:00 <oshepherd> tantek: But with AS1 audio/video is no more complicated than images in th API
21:04:22 <Lloyd_Fassett> Evan: In a business context, Word Processing, Spreadsheets, would be common
21:04:41 <Lloyd_Fassett> Tanktek: pointing to vid conference call "this is real different"
21:05:19 <oshepherd> Punt realtime off into future/IG?
21:05:35 <oshepherd> Realtime is kind of an "event"
21:05:53 <jtauber> q?
21:06:08 <AnnBassetti> elf demonstrates the upside-down use case
21:06:10 <EdK> q+
21:06:47 <dret> RTC could be mapped into a different URI-based interaction space, in the same way as tel: URIs allow to provide links into the telephone interaction space.
21:07:16 <Lloyd_Fassett> Tantek: Other models are difficult non-JSON....the indie camp..using micropub, you can post type of object and number of properties and that's it. If you want to post something with structure the Micropub models requires you post them one at a time.
21:07:50 <Lloyd_Fassett> Lloyd: power went out on projector
21:08:00 <Lloyd_Fassett> Evan: Let's take a break
21:08:02 <claudio> q+
21:08:16 <Arnaud> http://evan.prodromou.name/files/TPAC-API/?full#19
21:08:18 <Lloyd_Fassett> Tanket: Non-json point is that we're not even using html
21:08:42 <Lloyd_Fassett> webmention is a versino of ping back
21:08:50 <Lloyd_Fassett> we used that with Micropub as well
21:09:18 <Lloyd_Fassett> Tantek: In a LInked Data way we post them one at a time we post each item to individual URLs and reference those
21:09:27 <Lloyd_Fassett> we haven't run into limitations
21:09:41 <Lloyd_Fassett> Arnaud: that's expensive for systems.
21:09:48 <Lloyd_Fassett> Tantek: not really
21:09:55 <jasnell> q+
21:10:11 <Lloyd_Fassett> Tantek: Non-REST.  Everyone in INdie world is from REST
21:10:27 <Lloyd_Fassett> STatic site generators are a show stopper for REST
21:10:34 <Lloyd_Fassett> You have to use a common end point
21:11:22 <elf-pavlik> also CDN ...
21:11:23 <Lloyd_Fassett> Tantek: This is a solid use case.  Even the New York Times generates a static site that creates this problem.  They are big enough to be considered Enterprise class.  THis is an important market signal we need to look at
21:11:35 <Lloyd_Fassett> Tantek: we need to support that
21:11:56 <Lloyd_Fassett> Tantek: we make micropub post calls to a published endpoint.
21:12:47 <elf-pavlik> q?
21:12:53 <Lloyd_Fassett> Jasnell: The dataformaty for the client going back to the server is not an important as a shared vocabulary.  Making the terms understandable is important.
21:13:09 <elf-pavlik> +1 shared vocab
21:13:13 <Lloyd_Fassett> Jasnell: we have lots of evidence for both, we need to match up vocabulary
21:13:22 <Lloyd_Fassett> Evan: We need to specify something.
21:13:44 <tantek> FYI micropub: https://indiewebcamp.com/Micropub
21:13:58 <Lloyd_Fassett> Jasnell: JSON-LD vs form POST are the two options
21:14:04 <Arnaud> http://evan.prodromou.name/files/TPAC-API/?full#20
21:14:18 <ahdinosaur> how are SSGs a show stopper for REST?
21:14:30 <Lloyd_Fassett> Tantek: there are mulitple micopub implementations now.
21:15:14 <tantek> http://aaronparecki.com/metrics
21:15:22 <Lloyd_Fassett> Tantek: people are creating multiple clients...a person created a Pebble app to publish what he's eating as an example.
21:15:55 <Lloyd_Fassett> Tantek: reviewed what the person posted to the group.  There's a lot of implementation work there.
21:16:01 <Arnaud> http://evan.prodromou.name/files/TPAC-API/?full#21
21:16:16 <Lloyd_Fassett> Evan: comments on decision slide?
21:16:48 <Lloyd_Fassett> Tantek: Strongly wants to separate embedded experience.  It's important, but a different problem.
21:17:32 <Lloyd_Fassett> Evan: Is there a procedure we can take that embedded experience as a next step after a client API?  It is on our charter.
21:17:52 <Lloyd_Fassett> Harry: The charter is vague on purpose. It would be sad if we didn't deliver an API
21:18:17 <tantek> welcome aaronpk to the talky!
21:18:21 <Lloyd_Fassett> Arnaued: like AS, we are free to split the purpose
21:18:42 <Arnaud> q?
21:19:14 <Lloyd_Fassett> Tantek: how many people are interested in Embedded experience? (ans: about 5)
21:19:33 <Lloyd_Fassett> Tantek: Parralell to CRUD API
21:19:39 <oshepherd> aaronpk: Elf is upside down. I'm the one with the beard. Hopefully the one with the people is obvious :-)
21:19:54 <aaronpk> what is a summary of "embedded experience"? (sorry I joined late)
21:20:00 <Lloyd_Fassett> Jasnelss: I see actions as separate from the API work.
21:20:39 <tantek> and we lost power in the room again
21:20:43 <Lloyd_Fassett> Evan to James: Are you embedding actions into a UI that would respond?
21:20:46 <Lloyd_Fassett> Jasnell: yes
21:21:01 <Lloyd_Fassett> Evan: That's different than Embedded Experience?
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21:21:04 <Lloyd_Fassett> Jasnell: yes
21:21:25 <Lloyd_Fassett> Evan: I would be more supportive of that than something that got to DOM level.
21:22:10 <Lloyd_Fassett> Evan: The Open Social API, you can fire anything at that end point, it doesn't tell you anything about followers of where you post or anything else.  It's an activity lifecycle
21:22:39 <Lloyd_Fassett> Evan: We can do that, or we can support verbs (following, voting, etc.)
21:23:01 <Lloyd_Fassett> Tantek: I"m leaning toward including all the verbs in the format and not the  API
21:23:18 <oshepherd> tantek++ on in the format. Want to syndicate "follow" to followers, for example :-)
21:23:21 <Loqi> tantek has 112 karma
21:23:21 <Lloyd_Fassett> TanteK what is room for extensibility?
21:24:19 <Lloyd_Fassett> Evan: Can we support new verbs in the AS sense. How should a server handle activities it doesn't understand?
21:25:43 <Lloyd_Fassett> Jasnell: We're using AS for in devops..checkin, checkout for code, it's not something a typical social system would see.  How would a system react if it saw that and didn't understand it or be gerenic on CRUD? That's what we need to figure out
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21:26:21 <Lloyd_Fassett> Evan: If the extensibiliy is in the payload, we can say go ahead and put in whatever you want.
21:26:39 <Lloyd_Fassett> Evan: Tweets deliver exactly just tweets.
21:27:10 <Lloyd_Fassett> Tantek: Twitter changed the payload for pictures
21:27:12 <harry> q+
21:27:16 <oshepherd> tantek: Question of does server /act/ on your activities
21:27:30 <oshepherd> e.g. does posting a "follow" activity make the server do something?
21:27:39 <lehawes> q+
21:27:45 <oshepherd> If not, need separate "follow" endpoint
21:27:52 <Lloyd_Fassett> Jasnell: Twitter defines the payload and I can only supply that.  The alternative is that the endpoint is generic and I decide what is in the payload.
21:27:54 <tantek> oshepherd: I suppose, it depends?
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21:28:27 <oshepherd> tantek: Probably the pragmatic option
21:28:30 <Lloyd_Fassett> jasnell: IBM Connections you can submit many things to the API, but it might not surface in the UI
21:28:35 <tantek> oshepherd: typical micropub scenario: publish a post of some time, your server sends webmentions to everything the post links to, and then *those* servers react in some way.
21:28:54 <Lloyd_Fassett> Jasnell: does an endpoint need to accept anything?
21:30:01 <oshepherd> jasnell: IMO should. Extensibility dictates so.
21:30:15 <Lloyd_Fassett> AnneB: What's an endpoint?  Tantek: An endpoint accepts http post requests.  It can be the same server can publish information.  STatic sites use proxies to handle requests.
21:30:21 <Arnaud1> ack sandro
21:30:21 <Zakim> sandro, you wanted to point out that API in the charter is not this
21:30:21 <jasnell> q?
21:30:32 <jasnell> q-
21:31:24 <Lloyd_Fassett> Sandro: http api's are not what the charter says.  The charter language use "client side"
21:31:38 <Lloyd_Fassett> Harry: You can read "client side" in both ways.
21:32:09 <elf-pavlik> client (app) - server (web service) ?
21:32:52 <Lloyd_Fassett> Harry: it was written to mention html 5, many companies requested embedded experience, that's why it's listed in the deiverables.  We are not bound to deliver an API thought for Open Social.
21:33:11 <Lloyd_Fassett> Harry: recharting at this point is a waste of time.
21:33:35 <Lloyd_Fassett> Harry: embedded can be just retrieving AS and it can be thought of as embedded.
21:33:47 <Lloyd_Fassett> Tantek: I think we're streching the charter.
21:34:00 <Lloyd_Fassett> Sandro: I'm concerned we don't get patent coverage
21:34:55 <Lloyd_Fassett> Harry: we'll get it because the licensing comes in at the end.  The initial comits to the drafts.  At the workshop everyone was asking for embedded experiences, not CRUD, but they are not here.
21:35:17 <tantek> aaronpk, you may want to read scrollback about micrpub
21:35:23 <tantek> s/micrpub/micropub
21:35:25 <Loqi> tantek meant to say: aaronpk, you may want to read scrollback about micropub
21:36:40 <Lloyd_Fassett> jasnell: there are lots of API's, Open Social implementations focuses on their gadgets, not the API.  Let's get a good model for embedded experiences and let people create it on their side.
21:36:51 <Arnaud> q?
21:36:58 <Lloyd_Fassett> Harry: OpenSocial has both
21:37:36 <harry> Note that the OpenSocial Submission mixes CRUD and non-CRUD: http://www.w3.org/Submission/2014/SUBM-osapi-20140314/#rfc.section.2.3
21:38:18 <Lloyd_Fassett> Tantek: Is anything in OpenSocial in the charter?
21:38:34 <Lloyd_Fassett> Evan: no.  It was contribution to the process
21:38:51 <harry> The term 'client-side' was used on purpose
21:38:56 <Lloyd_Fassett> Arnaud: I agree with Harry that we're making a mountain out of a mole hill.
21:39:15 <Lloyd_Fassett> Arnaud: Can we get that in writing?
21:39:21 <harry> We can interpret the term 'client-side' API to include both a HTTP CRUD API and Embedded Experiences.
21:39:32 <harry> In particular, both are in the member submission.
21:39:45 <Lloyd_Fassett> Anne: I think Sandro is correct.  I don't follow the discussion.
21:40:00 <Lloyd_Fassett> Eric; I would read the charter as Client Side
21:40:03 <Lloyd_Fassett> Evan: only?
21:40:06 <Lloyd_Fassett> Eric: yes
21:40:21 <Lloyd_Fassett> Eric: Sandro has a good point
21:40:48 <sandro> We seem to agree to that "Social API" includes HTTP APIs, not just embedded experiences APs
21:41:05 <Lloyd_Fassett> Harry: We don't want to put embedded experiences out of scope yet.  We need to give members a chance to respond.  The WG can deliver them in separate documents.
21:41:29 <Lloyd_Fassett> Evan: It sounds like there would be discomfort on an http API
21:41:32 <Lloyd_Fassett> Tantek: no
21:41:34 <AnnBassetti> AnnBassetti has left #social
21:41:40 <AnnBassetti> AnnBassetti has joined #social
21:41:43 <sandro> PROPOSED: This Working Group interprets "Social API" in include HTTP API (and maybe other things)
21:42:00 <sandro> +1
21:42:01 <evanpro> +1
21:42:04 <aaronpk> "in include"?
21:42:05 <Lloyd_Fassett> +1
21:42:06 <oshepherd> +1
21:42:07 <jasnell> +1
21:42:07 <MarkCrawford> +1
21:42:08 <dromasca> +1
21:42:08 <rhiaro> +1
21:42:09 <elf-pavlik> +1
21:42:10 <jtauber> +1
21:42:14 <lehawes> +1
21:42:21 <harry> +1
21:42:22 <AnnBassetti> s/follow the discussion./follow the nuance of the discussion.  But I think it's important to document the consensus of the group./
21:42:23 <tantek> +1
21:42:23 <Loqi> AnnBassetti meant to say: AnnBassetti joined #social
21:42:24 <dret> dret has joined #social
21:42:25 <AdamB> +1
21:42:29 <sandro> RESOLVED: This Working Group interprets "Social API" to include HTTP API (and maybe other things)
21:42:30 <claudio> +1
21:42:30 <harry> s/in include/to include
21:42:31 <Loqi> harry meant to say: +1
21:43:03 <MarkCrawford> q+
21:43:07 <Lloyd_Fassett> jasnell: the charter says embedded format but nothing about CRUD. Should we include that?
21:43:12 <harry> q- harry
21:43:14 <Lloyd_Fassett> Sandro: it's too early for that.
21:43:16 <dret> +1
21:43:20 <Arnaud> ack sandro
21:43:20 <Zakim> sandro2, you wanted to ask whether anyone has a solid proposal for a Resource-style API (because I'm somewhat skeptical that all activities map to this style)
21:44:10 <Lloyd_Fassett> Sandro: resource style...I like the feel of the Resource better, but can you do that for every activity type? I'm dubious
21:44:51 <Lloyd_Fassett> Evan: I agree, it gets complicated.  We may be able to do something that handles mainstream actions.  We could extend it with command structure
21:45:00 <Lloyd_Fassett> AdamB: I agree with that.
21:45:05 <Arnaud> ack evanpro
21:45:08 <Lloyd_Fassett> Sandro: ok
21:45:28 <jeff> jeff has joined #social
21:46:11 <Lloyd_Fassett> Evan: question about authentication.  I agree with Harry.  Authentication is already well covered. Most are using OAuth 1.0 or 2.0.  There are methods people expect
21:46:23 <tantek> q?
21:46:53 <Lloyd_Fassett> Jasnell: Oath 2.0 has a notion of scopes.  If there are specific scopes for Social, we may want to define what those are.
21:47:16 <Lloyd_Fassett> Harry: W3C does lias with IETF.  I prefer not to reinvent OAuth.
21:47:26 <Lloyd_Fassett> AnnB: We use SAML
21:47:30 <aaronpk> building on top of OAuth 2.0 is a good idea
21:47:31 <harry> http://oauth.net/2/
21:47:34 <aaronpk> defining scopes would be useful
21:47:45 <tantek> q+ to say Micropub uses IndieAuth which is pluggable, uses OAuth, Persona, SMS, TOTP etc.
21:47:53 <oshepherd> oauth2++
21:47:54 <Loqi> oauth2 has 1 karma
21:47:58 <Lloyd_Fassett> EdKrebs: We use SAML internally, but with collaboration across partners OATH 2.0 is becoming more important
21:48:05 <oshepherd> need to think about extending it to cover the federated use case
21:48:10 <aaronpk> also note that obtaining authorization is separate from using authorization
21:48:25 <oshepherd> My phone client wants to be able to identify itself to yoursite.com as mysite.com/me
21:48:31 <tantek> aaronpk - I wonder what it would take to plug SAML into IndieAuth
21:48:37 <Arnaud> ack EdK
21:48:39 <aaronpk> OAuth 2.0 is a way to get authorization, which is represented by an access token string
21:48:41 <harry> We regularly co-ordinate with both IETF re OAuth and OASIS re SAML
21:48:54 <harry> so asking for stuff and having questions should be straightforward.
21:48:56 <aaronpk> then clients present the access token to the server
21:49:06 <Lloyd_Fassett> Harry: We can reconnect with SAML if needed.  We can use both with W3C.  W3C monitors developments.
21:49:27 <aaronpk> IndieAuth is built on top of OAuth 2.0 where identifiers are URLs, but the end result is also an access token
21:49:43 <oshepherd> SAML is XML based; OAuth2 is JSON based and more widely deployed on the open web. Related tech, e.g. JSON Web (encryption/signing/token) also aligns well with our use case
21:49:58 <Lloyd_Fassett> EdKrebs: Social Applications, idea management.  3 years ago it was horizontal, 2 years ago they crossed processes (prod dev). Now I see Idea Management.  It's largely around enterprise activities.  It might be somehting the WG would want to prioritize back to the IG.
21:50:09 <aaronpk> this means it's possible to have multiple (incompatible) ways of obtaining access tokens, and as long as the "social API" can accept a bearer token we can deal with authorization as a separate issue
21:50:21 <harry> yes, you will need "an access token"
21:50:23 <Lloyd_Fassett> AnnB: I don't know if it's that different.  IBM Jam did that.
21:50:33 <harry> In consumer-facing space, likely OAuth
21:50:37 <Lloyd_Fassett> EdKrebs: it's more than that.
21:50:39 <harry> In enterprise, likely SAML
21:50:43 <Lloyd_Fassett> AdamB: lifecycle of ideas?
21:50:47 <harry> Regardless, we don't reinvent either.
21:50:59 <oshepherd> Note OAuth is picking up adoption in enterprise space
21:51:01 <aaronpk> tantek: I think it wouldn't be a huge stretch to use SAML in an IndieAuth context
21:51:09 <harry> We like both communities and work with both regularly, in particular with help of ISOC
21:51:18 <Lloyd_Fassett> EdKrebs: there are interesting nuances that are new.  We've had a lot of vendor demo's in the last few months that sparking some ideas.
21:51:24 <Arnaud> q?
21:51:31 <elf-pavlik> aaronpk, any special conditions you can think of with CORS enabled?
21:51:46 <Lloyd_Fassett> Jasnell: Provinance is the piece that is being added. Manage it and track it
21:51:48 <aaronpk> elf-pavlik: I'd have to go brush up on SAML before I can answer that
21:52:20 <Lloyd_Fassett> Tantek: Provenance is important in indie web.  We need it to establish trust. Everything is so distributed.
21:52:31 <elf-pavlik> i meant fo oauth, i know that person has some issues there since server needs to limit Audience for security reasons
21:52:40 <elf-pavlik> s/person/persona/
21:52:41 <Lloyd_Fassett> Harry: We seen failed experiments with digital signatures but I expect it to come back.
21:52:42 <Loqi> elf-pavlik meant to say: i meant fo oauth, i know that persona has some issues there since server needs to limit Audience for security reasons
21:53:03 <Lloyd_Fassett> AnneB: Boeing does not allow anonymous posting. Identity is controlled.
21:53:04 <oshepherd> tantek: Suggest something JSON Web Token based. Use PKI to establish chain of identity from "authority" (Server controling URI)
21:53:06 <tantek> q?
21:53:07 <Arnaud> ack claudio
21:53:45 <Lloyd_Fassett> Claudio: responding to TAntek from an hour ago. I think video conferencing is important.
21:54:04 <Lloyd_Fassett> Tantek: we're using peer to peer in this meeting
21:54:13 <Lloyd_Fassett> Claudio: webrtc?
21:54:17 <Lloyd_Fassett> Tantek: yes
21:54:27 <aaronpk> i'm using Chrome btw
21:54:29 <Lloyd_Fassett> Tantek Chrome Firefox
21:54:31 <aaronpk> for talky
21:54:53 <aaronpk> &yet wrote an iOS app so I can join this talky room from my phone
21:54:56 <Lloyd_Fassett> Tantek: we'd love to see rtc in IOS
21:55:16 <aaronpk> would be nice to see webrtc support in iOS safari though
21:55:23 <tantek> q?
21:55:26 <elf-pavlik> aaronpk, Mozilla Persona limitation which limits its usage with CORS (Explicitly specify the audience parameter) https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/Persona/Security_Considerations
21:55:47 <Arnaud> ack lehawes
21:56:33 <Lloyd_Fassett> Larry: an extension to Sandro's point.  There's a problem now for lack of activity definitions.  Liking isn't the same everywhere.
21:57:04 <tantek> Larry, see http://indiewebcamp.com/like and http://indiewebcamp.com/favorite and in particular http://indiewebcamp.com/like#Variants
21:57:41 <Lloyd_Fassett> Evan: That's reasonsonable.  In the AS world we have a schema that is super fuzzy.  Especially as words in English like Attach, Consume (eat or watch?)
21:57:53 <Lloyd_Fassett> Activy Schema has to do this
21:58:20 <Lloyd_Fassett> jasnell: throw it up at the wall and document.  We need to narrow it down to standardize it.
21:58:47 <Lloyd_Fassett> Eric: If you need something we precise semantics, do your own vocabulary and publish it.  We won't see that in our base Schema
21:59:08 <Lloyd_Fassett> Evan: our core set should cover many things
21:59:51 <Lloyd_Fassett> Tantek: 500px has both a heart button and a like button.  That pattern is not going to end.  Some places have a lot of smily's.
22:00:19 <Arnaud> ack MarkCrawford
22:00:21 <MarkCrawford> Since I have heard the dreaded IP words raised, I think it might be worthwhile to remind folks in the meeting that only the WG members have made the IP commitment because if I remember correctly, the IG members have no licensing commitment.  Also, since we are taking resolutions of the WG, perhaps we should limit the actual polls to WG members only.
22:00:26 <Lloyd_Fassett> jasnell: 500px 'heart' adds to your list, like ads a count of likes
22:00:33 <lehawes> tantek: Thanks! I'll check these out.
22:00:59 <oshepherd> AS1 conflates "favorite" and "like". Perhaps we should disentagle them?
22:01:11 <oshepherd> "favorite" would be a more long term thing, probably have a list of your favorites
22:01:15 <oshepherd> "heart button" would map to favorite
22:01:20 <evanpro> oshepherd: yep, that's pretty complicated
22:01:33 <Lloyd_Fassett> MarkCrawford: IP...we have IG members that have not made WG comittments. We need to be care about taking their contributions. We are taking +1 in the minutes from non WG members.
22:01:49 <Lloyd_Fassett> Arnaud: Fair point, but the outcome would not be different.
22:01:51 <jtauber> FWIW: here's my collection of things that a "favorite" in Twitter can mean: https://thoughtstreams.io/jtauber/taxonomy-of-twitter-favorites/
22:02:11 <Arnaud> ack tantek
22:02:11 <Zakim> tantek, you wanted to say Micropub uses IndieAuth which is pluggable, uses OAuth, Persona, SMS, TOTP etc.
22:02:16 <Lloyd_Fassett> MarkC: we need to be careful because IG members are not making a commitment
22:02:17 <lehawes> q-
22:02:18 <dret> i'd be in favor of not boiling the ocean of formalizing/cataloging/mapping all possible interaction models on social sites.
22:02:21 <Lloyd_Fassett> Harry: Good point
22:02:56 <Lloyd_Fassett> Tantek: Any API that has right to a server will need Authentication.  I recommend Indieauth (?).
22:03:08 <evanpro> s/right/write/
22:03:09 <Loqi> evanpro meant to say: oshepherd: yep, that's pretty complicated
22:03:09 <harry> IndieAuth via SAML may be a world of pain :)
22:03:21 <Lloyd_Fassett> Tankek: I asked someone to look at SAML through Indieauth
22:03:22 <aaronpk> sounds like fun :)
22:03:24 <harry> It's got a very nice metadata framework, but just warning you guys
22:03:27 <tantek> thanks aaronpk!
22:03:38 <jasnell> Anything with SAML is a world of pain
22:03:56 <Arnaud> PROPOSED: Separate Embedded Experiences from "basic" client API
22:04:00 <oshepherd> +1
22:04:07 <tantek> +like
22:04:25 <tantek> ^^^like
22:04:29 <Lloyd_Fassett> Arnauld: Everyone is assuming we'll separate Embedded Experiences from the API.  I'd like to make a proposal.
22:04:48 <elf-pavlik> +elf:like
22:05:07 <Lloyd_Fassett> Jasnell: The way OS did it conflated the issue.  They did a gadget that did many different things.
22:05:15 <tantek> +the_coffee_break
22:05:20 <MarkCrawford> LOL
22:05:22 <Lloyd_Fassett> jasnell: OS embedded experience is too complicated.
22:05:57 <Arnaud> PROPOSED: Separate Embedded Experiences from HTTP client API
22:06:00 <Lloyd_Fassett> jasnell: separating it will make it much easier to get things done
22:06:06 <jasnell> +1
22:06:25 <evanpro> q+
22:06:38 <Arnaud> ack evanpro
22:06:41 <oshepherd> +http://www.w3.org/ns/activitystreams#like :-)
22:06:49 <Arnaud> PROPOSED: Separate embedded experiences from HTTP client API
22:07:00 <evanpro> +1
22:07:03 <oshepherd> +1
22:07:03 <dret> +1
22:07:04 <MarkCrawford> +1
22:07:07 <jtauber> +1
22:07:08 <elf-pavlik> +0
22:07:10 <jasnell> +1
22:07:11 <tantek> like
22:07:11 <sandro> +1
22:07:28 <AdamB> +1
22:07:31 <Arnaud> RESOLVED: Separate embedded experiences from HTTP client API
22:07:40 <jasnell> "@type":"as:like"
22:07:45 <tantek> 💛
22:07:58 <sandro> ♥
22:08:11 <sandro> <3
22:08:25 <elf-pavlik> "@type": ["elf:like", "as:like"]
22:08:37 <oshepherd> proposal: rename "as:like" to "as:♥" ;-)
22:12:10 <jtauber> jtauber has joined #social
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22:16:08 <oshepherd> Audio has gone to hell :-(
22:19:20 <elf-pavlik> oshepherd, nice IRI :)
22:19:32 <elf-pavlik> as:♥
22:20:19 <elf-pavlik> http://www.w3.org/ns/activitystreams#♥
22:21:25 <bblfish_> bblfish_ has joined #social
22:27:12 <ahdinosaur> ahdinosaur has joined #social
22:37:51 <dret> dret has joined #social
22:39:12 <oshepherd> Anonymous person on talky is me, crawled into bed :-)
22:40:10 <jasnell_> jasnell_ has joined #social
22:42:08 <tantek> tantek has joined #social
22:42:12 <harry> We are re-convening
22:42:15 <harry> topic: Federation
22:43:00 <dromasca> federation protocol
22:43:23 <Lloyd_Fassett> Lloyd_Fassett has joined #social
22:43:28 <dromasca> going through the charter
22:44:26 <dromasca> evan: distributing status updates between different servers
22:44:36 <dromasca> two use cases
22:44:57 <dromasca> distributed consumers
22:45:05 <dromasca> 2. business colaboration
22:45:14 <MarkCrawford> MarkCrawford has joined #social
22:45:31 <dromasca> taking data between two security domains probably implemented as servers
22:47:14 <dromasca> feed identified by address or id and subscribe model
22:48:21 <dromasca> other mechanisms  that may work - peer2peer ; but we assume it's rather a server to server mechanism
22:48:59 <dromasca> feed and sindication - depends in the way social api ends looking like
22:49:56 <dret> q+
22:51:34 <elf-pavlik> harry, i have PoC decentralized system which uses The Bayeux for pub/sub http://svn.cometd.org/trunk/bayeux/bayeux.html
22:52:01 <elf-pavlik> s/system/system implementation/
22:52:02 <Loqi> elf-pavlik meant to say: harry, i have PoC decentralized system implementation which uses The Bayeux for pub/sub http://svn.cometd.org/trunk/bayeux/bayeux.html
22:52:43 <evanpro> q+
22:52:52 <Arnaud> ack dret
22:53:00 <harry> Note that we did ask for Pubsubhubbub to be listed as an input to the charter which would require W3C RF licensing, and BradFitz didn't see any reason to move the spec from its current location or change anything.
22:53:17 <harry> So I think Pubsubhubbub is off limits for Rec-track.
22:53:49 <oshepherd> +1 for integrating both into one common protocol
22:54:14 <Arnaud> ack evanpro
22:54:59 <elf-pavlik> http://www.w3.org/community/pubsub/
22:55:08 <harry> ACTION: See if BradFitz did sign on off W3C OWF licensing.
22:55:08 <trackbot> Error finding 'See'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/Social/track/users>.
22:55:19 <harry> ACTION: hhalpin to see if BradFitz did sign on off W3C OWF licensing.
22:55:19 <trackbot> Created ACTION-5 - See if bradfitz did sign on off w3c owf licensing. [on Harry Halpin - due 2014-11-03].
22:55:55 <tantek> q?
22:56:21 <dromasca> Webmention
22:56:50 <elf-pavlik> http://indiewebcamp.com/webmention
22:57:03 <dromasca> previous implementations were not federating with other
22:57:24 <dromasca> exception - diaspora one way federation
22:57:43 <npdoty> npdoty has joined #social
22:57:46 <harry> http://www.w3.org/community/pubsub/participants
22:58:05 <harry> BTW, the answer seems to be neither Brett nor Brad signed the W3C Community License :(
22:58:23 <dromasca> every implementation gor its federation protocol
22:58:31 <dromasca> looking at pingback
22:59:16 <dromasca> 1-1 use case - comment on my side, see it on your side
23:00:22 <dromasca> source marked up - this is an entry, got author, content,
23:00:50 <dromasca> federating comments - more implementations than any other procotol
23:01:05 <dromasca> now events, notifications - use webmention
23:01:22 <jasnell_> q+
23:01:39 <dromasca> thin protocol based on existing publishing resources
23:01:54 <dromasca> basic flaw of pingback - automated spam problem
23:03:37 <dromasca> invite open review - is the automated spam problem solved?
23:04:01 <dromasca> Arnaud: with pingback one can accept or not . tue here?
23:04:05 <harry> q+
23:04:07 <dromasca> yes, true
23:04:27 <dromasca> James: what if firewall in between?
23:04:41 <Arnaud> ack jasnell
23:04:41 <dromasca> uses httppost
23:04:54 <evanpro> q+
23:05:27 <dromasca> harry: solved the spam problem - what about industry implementation?
23:05:29 <Lloyd_Fassett> dromasca: should be either jasnell or jtauber
23:05:29 <tantek> http://indiewebcamp.com/vouch
23:05:32 <Arnaud> ack harry
23:06:04 <dromasca> jasnell
23:06:13 <oshepherd> tantek: I suggested hashcash in the past. What happened to that line of thought?
23:06:42 <dromasca> analog art flowchart on screen
23:07:14 <dromasca> vouch flowchart
23:08:29 <dromasca> vouch url - you believe the recipient will approve, and links to sender
23:08:44 <elf-pavlik> eg. list of participants in some event which you participated
23:08:49 <dromasca> a trust model that does not require any terms of trust!
23:09:24 <elf-pavlik> you could use https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35125/TPAC2014/registrants#SW as vouch url
23:09:37 <dret> webmention looks interesting as a solution to the problem it is solving (better pingback), but it's bit hard to see how it actually applies to the federation API mentioned in the charter.
23:10:26 <dromasca> bar raised enough to solve the automated spam problem?
23:11:46 <Arnaud> ack evanpro
23:12:01 <tantek> q+ sandro
23:13:29 <jeff> jeff has joined #social
23:14:53 <oshepherd> If you have WebMention follow actions and disconnected PubSubHubub subscriptions, you've reinvented the worst aspect of OStatus!
23:15:12 <Arnaud> ack sandro
23:15:34 <jasnell> q+
23:16:22 <dromasca> Sandro - assumption that everybody on its own domain? what if not - vouch would not reflect
23:17:13 <dromasca> Sandro - not vouching from twitter but vouching to twitter
23:17:22 <Ruinan> Ruinan has joined #social
23:17:31 <dromasca> why is vouch based on domain?
23:18:03 <tantek> https://indiewebcamp.com/lj2006
23:18:04 <dromasca> history - explained on subdomain page
23:20:05 <bblfish> bblfish has joined #social
23:20:43 <dromasca> webmention - when sending again the semantics is 'i updated' or 'i deleted my comment', etc.
23:20:59 <jtauber> q+
23:21:08 <tantek> https://indiewebcamp.com/reply-context
23:22:31 <dromasca> replay-context - tw came with it, came on url,
23:23:26 <tantek> https://indiewebcamp.com/recursive_reply-contexts
23:23:40 <nicolagreco> nicolagreco has joined #social
23:23:47 <AdamB> q+ how do you see webmentions working in a corporate environment?
23:24:17 <AdamB> q+, how do you see webmentions working in a corporate environment?
23:24:45 <dromasca> recursive reply-context ; chained reply-context or 'transitive'
23:24:49 <AdamB> q+
23:26:42 <Arnaud> ack jasnell
23:27:00 <tantek> jasnell: agrees with the domain-level vouch
23:27:13 <oshepherd> jasnell: If you can't make that callback, the link is useless anyway!
23:27:19 <dromasca> jasnell: needs to cross firewall, cannot be just dropped
23:27:47 <dromasca> put content in initial post, not to lose the content
23:28:20 <elf-pavlik> jasnell, with application/x-www-form-urlencoded nesting may not work very well...
23:28:47 <dromasca> jasnell: how you mention profile information? use webfinger to discover?
23:29:16 <Arnaud> ack jtauber
23:29:16 <dromasca> jasnell - lot of objects that do not have http id - need to be discovered
23:29:30 <sandro> jasnell: In a lot of our use cases, we have a lot of objects which do not have HTTP URIs
23:29:51 <sandro> q+ to ask jasnell whether it's feasible to give them all HTTP URIs
23:29:53 <dromasca> jtauber - how generic can this go? any resource to any resource
23:30:01 <dromasca> yes - can go general
23:30:37 <jasnell> sandro: it can be possible indirectly... webfinger is one way of accomplishing that
23:30:54 <sandro> q-
23:30:55 <sandro> thanks
23:30:59 <Arnaud> ack AdamB
23:31:29 <dromasca> AdamB - how it would work in enterprise environment where subdomains are not wide spread?
23:32:06 <dromasca> use direct addressing, no need for vouch - do they have spam problems internally
23:32:16 <dromasca> jasnell - may have croo-org
23:32:23 <dromasca> cross-organizations
23:32:32 <tantek> q?
23:32:42 <AdamB> q-
23:33:04 <dromasca> Evan - Linked Data Platform next?
23:33:17 <dromasca> sandro - does not understand why it's there
23:33:24 <dromasca> harry - it was reuested
23:34:27 <dromasca> sandro - take the http idea of posting to create resource - formalize create a container which has a link to each content list
23:34:46 <tantek> q+ to ask is anyone federating comments (or other interactions) using LDP?
23:35:03 <evanpro> q+
23:35:34 <elf-pavlik> q+ to ask about http://cimba.co and http://crosscloud.org/
23:35:36 <dromasca> Arnaud - LDP at lower level, not app specific
23:36:45 <tantek> cleaned up "webmention with vouch" flow diagram: https://indiewebcamp.com/File:2014-285-webmention-vouch-drawing.png
23:36:49 <dromasca> not specific for feferation
23:38:14 <dromasca> Arnaud - process point of view - LDP goes to PR, if it fits could be used
23:38:18 <Arnaud> ack tantek
23:38:19 <Zakim> tantek, you wanted to ask is anyone federating comments (or other interactions) using LDP?
23:38:23 <dromasca> sandro - only if it fits
23:38:36 <dromasca> tantek - anyone tempting to federate?
23:38:42 <dromasca> sandro - me and Andrei
23:38:57 <AnnBassetti> s/tempting /attempting /
23:38:59 <Loqi> AnnBassetti meant to say: s/follow the discussion./follow the nuance of the discussion.  But I think it's important to document the consensus of the group./
23:39:21 <elf-pavlik> tantek, check out http://cimba.co - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0_XaJ97rF0
23:39:57 <elf-pavlik> q-
23:40:37 <evanpro> q-
23:40:44 <evanpro> q+
23:40:46 <dromasca> sandro - emulate twitter experience, but does not scale (60k users, 20k servers), using simba, LDP server + access control
23:41:12 <dromasca> sandro - one client implementation, one server
23:41:16 <Arnaud> ack evanpro
23:41:20 <harry> q+
23:41:22 <elf-pavlik> sandro, cimba == kima ? https://github.com/rww-apps/kima
23:41:45 <npdoty> npdoty has joined #social
23:42:20 <dromasca> evanpro - would it be reasonable to sketch this process on wiki as proposal> looks close with things done on JSON-LD. Does it make sense? can we sketch on wikki
23:42:22 <dret> q+ LDP as AS platform
23:42:33 <dret> q+, LDP as AS platform
23:42:36 <dret> q+
23:42:49 <dromasca> sandro - hesitates, not sure about use case
23:42:53 <elf-pavlik> q-
23:43:21 <Arnaud> ack harry
23:43:26 <dret> aha. thanks, elf
23:44:38 <elf-pavlik> q?
23:45:22 <evanpro> http://www.openwebfoundation.org/announcements/introducingtheopenwebfoundationagreement
23:45:35 <harry> I'm happy to talk through OpenSocial HTTP API with Sandro
23:45:39 <elf-pavlik> q+ re: friendship claims in federated network
23:47:10 <dromasca> owf - dates 2009 - still valid?
23:47:12 <harry> q+
23:47:54 <dromasca> harry - somebody familiar explain pluses and minuses of pubsubhubb -
23:47:54 <evanpro> q+ discuss pubsubhubbub
23:48:11 <Arnaud> ack dret
23:48:29 <tantek> dret: PuSH is not a federation protocol, it's a pushing protocol
23:48:48 <dromasca> dret- pubsubhubbub - push protocol -
23:48:51 <tantek> dret: the latest version hollowed it completely
23:49:07 <tantek> dret: going to be hard to get interoperability
23:49:09 <dromasca> sandro - 0.4?
23:49:10 <tantek> evanpro: 0.4
23:49:21 <tantek> evanpro: idea was to decouple from Atom (XML)
23:49:21 <AnnBassetti> I like @dret's terse statement:  "pubsubhubbub is not the federation protocol; it's the push protocol" ... would be helpful to have such an annotation on all these
23:49:36 <tantek> evanpro: and make it more applicable for other payloads such as images or JSON
23:49:48 <tantek> evanpro: it doesn't specify a ping paylod, so you can't do fat pings
23:49:49 <dromasca> evanpro - other payloads
23:49:50 <AnnBassetti> (although all you geeks may be clear on all of that)
23:49:57 <MarkCrawford> q+
23:50:30 <evanpro> q+
23:50:30 <shepazu> shepazu has joined #social
23:50:49 <tantek> q?
23:51:05 <Arnaud> ack elf
23:51:05 <Zakim> elf-pavlik, you wanted to discuss friendship claims in federated network
23:51:51 <tantek> hence you need provenance
23:52:04 <dromasca> elf-pavlik: silos, simetric relation, i can publish any claims - how people can verify claims?
23:52:29 <AnnBassetti> s/simetric /symmetric /
23:52:29 <tantek> this is one of the reasons we found we had to nounify everything in indieweb
23:52:30 <Loqi> AnnBassetti meant to say: (although all you geeks may be clear on all of that)
23:52:31 <tantek> so you could cite the posts
23:52:36 <tantek> that made the claims
23:52:40 <harry> ack elf-pavlik
23:53:01 <fabien-gandon> fabien-gandon has joined #social
23:53:04 <tantek> q+ to reply to elf re: verifying relationships in a distributed social network, why we nounify things even like following
23:53:08 <jasnell> we need symmetric webmention... initial webmention can include an identifier, that the receiver must include on their side, mention back to the original, that is then verified
23:53:33 <dromasca> evanpro - rough idea - verify information stored on different servers
23:53:35 <Arnaud> ack harry
23:53:52 <evanpro> ack discuss
23:53:59 <evanpro> ack pubsubhubbub
23:54:15 <aaronpk> jasnell: interesting... see current work on webmention status using identifiers for individual webmentions: http://indiewebcamp.com/webmention#Asynchronous_status_polling
23:54:58 <sandro> q?
23:55:13 <dromasca> tantek - pubsuhubbub - working since 2010
23:55:24 <tantek> tantek looks up a citation for that ;)
23:55:25 <jtauber> sounds like a slogan
23:56:29 <dromasca> evanpro - the primary use activity strings, allows for activities info to flow accross the connection
23:56:45 <Arnaud> ack evanpro
23:57:14 <dromasca> sandro - xml only?
23:57:21 <dromasca> evanpro - not any longer
23:58:06 <dromasca> feature to broadcast to large number of subscribers
23:58:26 <tantek> I've published notes with PubSubHubbub on tantek.com since 2010-02-01: http://tantek.com/2010/032/t3/bits-tweeting-from-my-site-favicon-twitter-pubsubhubbub
23:59:06 <dromasca> well supported for produces of atom feeds - bloggers, etc.
23:59:24 <jasnell> http://blog.superfeedr.com/state-of-pubsubhubbub/
23:59:44 <dromasca> downside - no access control mechanis,