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06:36:04 <dauwhe> Is there a general TPAC channel on IRC?
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15:43:03 <glazou> test
15:43:30 <glazou> test again
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15:56:12 <smfr> smfr has changed the topic to: https://wiki.csswg.org/planning/tpac-2014#proposed-topics
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16:06:31 <dael> glazou: Let's start. Welcome to the first day of TPAC. As usualy we'll address the agenda first.
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16:06:42 <dael> glazou: We dont have too much, but there are time constraints.
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16:07:10 <dael> glazou: plinss and I will disappear from time to time. For tomorrow we need to go to lunch at 1pm and not before. It's a special lunch.
16:07:20 <dael> glazou: Apart from that, welcome!
16:08:06 <dael> [intros]
16:08:48 <gregwhitworth> Greg Whitworth, Microsoft
16:08:49 <iank_> Ian Kilpatrick, Google
16:08:50 <vollick> Ian Vollick, Google
16:08:50 <astearns> Alan Stearns, Adobe
16:08:51 <dauwhe> Dave Cramer, Hachette Livre
16:08:51 <krit> Dirk Schulze, Adobe
16:08:54 <zcorpan_> Simon Pieters, Opera Software
16:08:54 <rbyers> Rick Byers, Google
16:08:55 <bobtung> Bobby Tung, invited expert
16:08:55 <hiroshi2> Hiroshi Sakakibara, BPS,Japan
16:08:56 <Bert> Bert Bos, W3C
16:08:56 <SteveZ> Steve Zilles, Adobe Systems
16:08:57 <ArronEi> Arron Eicholz, Invited Expert
16:08:57 <glazou> Daniel Glazman (Disruptive Innovations, Co-chair)
16:08:57 <dino> Dean Jackson, Apple
16:08:58 <florian> Florian Rivoal, Invited Expert
16:09:00 <fantasai> Elika Etemad aka fantasai, Invited Expert
16:09:00 <MaRakow> Matt Rakow, Microsoft
16:09:07 <jrossi> Jacob Rossi, Microsoft
16:09:08 <yamamoto> Kazutaka Yamamoto, NTT
16:09:11 <KeshavP> Keshav Puttaswamy, Microsoft
16:09:12 <bradk> Brad Kemper, Invited Expert
16:09:13 <babatakao> Takao Baba, BPS
16:09:15 <andreyr> Andrey Rybka, Bloomberg
16:09:17 <nsakai2> Narumichi Sakai, Toshiba
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16:09:28 <shans__> Shane Stephens, Google
16:09:32 <SimonSapin> Simon Sapin, Mozilla
16:09:33 <smfr> Simon Fraser, Apple
16:09:41 <murakami> Shinyu Murakami, Vivliostyle/AntennaHouse
16:09:45 <plinss> Peter Linss, HP
16:09:55 <glazou> https://wiki.csswg.org/planning/tpac-2014#proposed-topics
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16:10:36 <r12a> Richard Ishida, W3C
16:10:45 <alant> Alan Turransky, IAB
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16:10:52 <leaverou> Lea Verou, Invited Expert
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16:11:11 <dael> glazou: Any time constraints for people?
16:11:14 <AH_Miller> Michael Miller, Antenna House
16:11:25 <dael> krit: Some of the topics are with joint meeting.
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16:12:10 <dael> glazou: We have an e-mail from sylvaing__ saying... (something about time he can call)
16:13:09 <dael> [agenda wrangling continues]
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16:14:30 <dael> glazou: Start with Media Queries?
16:16:30 <dael> florian: CSS3 ui, ::selection?
16:16:33 <dael> Topic: CSS3 UI
16:16:43 <dael> florian: I was looking at this doc that's been stagnating
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16:16:56 <dael> fantasai: I propose adding florian as editor.
16:17:09 <dael> rossen: That's what happens when you look at document.
16:17:20 <dael> glazou: tantek used to be editor. Did you ping him?
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16:17:22 <dael> florian: Nope.
16:17:31 <dael> fantasai: He's not around.
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16:17:54 <dael> glazou: No, he's not, but you should let him know.  Learning about it from a resolution isn't good.
16:18:05 <dael> glazou: So no obj?
16:18:14 <dael> RESOLVED: Add florian as editor to CSS3 UI
16:18:31 <dael> florian: I'll dive in deeper, but while we're on it there is a bunch of things about pseudo classes that are all in selectors.
16:18:45 <dael> florian: I don't think they should stay, they're better speced elsewhere. Can we remove dup?
16:18:53 <dael> SteveZ: What's the status of them?
16:18:59 <dael> florian: Some are in 3, but all are in 4.
16:19:21 <dael> SteveZ: What's your expectation for progress? The main reason we stick things is in for progress.
16:19:27 <dael> florian: It makes sense elsewhere.
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16:19:44 <dael> SteveZ: But it's for progression. It make sense in selectors, but if you need things to progress they should stay.
16:19:54 <glazou> RRSAgent, make logs public
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16:20:12 <dael> fantasai: If CSS UI was close to CR it would make sense to leave it, but I can't tell what would make it to CR first. They both need cleanup.
16:20:24 <dael> SteveZ: So based on that, pull them out and you can put them back if nec.
16:20:29 <dael> fantasai: And they're already in selectors.
16:20:39 <dael> glazou: So the last on TR is from 2012.
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16:20:51 <dael> florian: The ED is more recent, but needs to be cleaned before pub.
16:21:02 <dael> florian: For pseudo the selectors text is newer.
16:21:31 <dael> florian: While we're in selectors, there's also pseudo-elements in the spec. They seem reasonable, but doesn't seem to have interest. Anyone care about what to do with them?
16:21:37 <dael> fantasai: What are they>
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16:21:47 <dael> florian: Value shoices, repeat item, repeat index.
16:21:53 <dael> fantasai: If there's no impl we should drop.
16:22:13 <dael> Bert: It's hard to find impl info b/c it's not in browsers. I think Steven Pemberton is here and we can ask him.
16:22:31 <dael> florian: That's my feeling. It's prob not something used, but it's not inheretly wrong.
16:22:41 <dael> action Bert find Steven Pemberton and ask him about impl
16:22:41 <trackbot> Created ACTION-656 - Find steven pemberton and ask him about impl [on Bert Bos - due 2014-11-03].
16:22:49 <dael> fantasai: If there's none we should drop.
16:23:19 <dael> florian: We also have a content prop extension. The value is icon and lets you use icon which is to an image and lets you use that instead of having it be a child.
16:23:41 <dael> florian: Right now it's dec as applying to pseudo and elements, but as far as I know it's not web compat for the content prop to apply.
16:23:54 <dael> fantasai: We have impl in print world. It stays and we need to figure out web compat.
16:23:59 <dael> florian: And why is it called icon?
16:24:13 <dael> fantasai: Idea is that it allows you to associate something that represents that element.
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16:24:42 <dael> florian: The ability to have a replaced element. That's reasonably nice. That images normally used on content aren't replaced make it hard to style.
16:24:51 <dael> fantasai: This wasn't intended to solve that use case.
16:24:59 <dael> dauwhe: Should ew omve to generated content?
16:25:04 <dael> fantasai: Does anyone use icon?
16:25:22 <dael> fantasai: So we say this was a nice idea and we'll put it in the list of CSS4 ideas. I'm surprised it's still there.
16:25:27 <dauwhe> s/ew omve/this move/
16:25:27 <dael> florian: It's marked as at risk.
16:26:24 <dael> florian: About text-overflow, there's prob a lot of issues. Superfisially it references CSS3 marquee. It prob shouldn't. Don't know if we need resolution. Also when you use two value variant which lets you decide overflow at beginning and end
16:26:38 <andreyr> http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-ui/#text-overflow
16:26:40 <dael> florian: Currently it says left and right, should we change to beginning and end?
16:26:46 <dael> Rossen_: Should be start and end.
16:26:55 <dael> florian: Prob. start and end, yes.
16:27:26 <dael> glazou: Basic support is impl. 2 value syntax is only FF and we don't have dbaron i the room. I'd love to hear from dbaron.
16:27:29 <dael> florian: Sounds fair.
16:27:37 <dael> glazou: But in theory we should do that.
16:28:05 <dael> glazou: We do have consensus. It could be resolved, but he should be here and h's late.
16:28:19 <dael> florian: There will be much more to come, but for this morning we're good.
16:28:43 <dael> smfr: There's many cases where it's (outlne) is for drawing boxes.
16:28:51 <dael> florian: I think it belongs here.
16:29:04 <dael> fantasai: tantek leans toward objecting to a new co-editor.
16:29:21 <smfr> smfr: I think box-sizing nad text-overflow do not belong on this spec
16:29:27 <dael> glazou: There are no updates in 11 months and we need to make progress so we'll drop it. I'd rather add florian.
16:29:35 <dael> glazou: Do you know where he is?
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16:29:38 <dael> fantasai: I don't.
16:29:46 <dael> glazou: Can you ask him to pay us a visit?
16:29:49 <dael> fantasai: Yes.
16:30:05 <dael> Bert: Can we go back to text overflow? Where did you see left/right/start/end?
16:30:12 <dael> florian: It says left/right.
16:30:20 <dael> Bert: Where? It jsut says elipsis.
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16:30:35 <dael> plinss: It uses both terminologies.
16:30:43 <dael> Bert: Ah, got it.
16:30:49 <dael> plinss: It's inconsistant. t's bad.
16:30:58 <dael> s/t's/It's
16:31:35 <dael> glazou: I have a question. The resize property...at leasst 2 browsers don't impl it. Opera is listed as not impl because presto. IE, are you planning to impl?
16:31:49 <dael> Rossen_: I think it's on our backlog. It's under consideration.
16:31:54 <dael> florian: It's not objected to?
16:31:58 <dael> Rossen_: I don't think so, nope.
16:32:04 <dael> glazou: Anything else on CSS3 UI?
16:32:08 <dael> florian: Not for now.
16:32:13 <dael> glazou: You're palnning new stuff?
16:32:18 <dael> florian: Starting with a cleanup.
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16:32:40 <dael> fantasai: tantek says if florian wants to help he can start on the wiki.
16:33:33 <dael> glazou: I think the group had consensus from the group because we think it'll be more productive to have him. I suggest we stick to our decision. Is that okay for everyone?
16:33:41 <dael> [silence]
16:33:53 <dael> glazou: Okay. We have consensus -1. It's a good consensus.
16:34:26 <dael> smfr: To come back to resize, what was the suggestion?
16:34:37 <dael> glazou: I was jsut asking if IE would impl.
16:34:43 <smfr> s/smfr/krit
16:34:55 <dael> Topic: ::selection
16:35:22 <tantek> good morning - I'm co-chairing the #social WG today and tomorrow but will be on IRC here too
16:35:23 <dael> fantasai: Okay. Let me get the spec.
16:35:54 <tantek> ::selection latest info is in CSS3-UI issues wiki page
16:35:54 <fantasai> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-pseudo
16:35:55 <tantek> https://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css3-ui#issue-30
16:36:09 <fantasai> for the minutes https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/csswg/raw-file/9591381784e1/css-pseudo/Overview.html
16:36:16 <tantek> still awaiting tests to answer questions raised in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2008Oct/0268.html
16:36:38 <tantek> until we have those tests, it doesn't make sense to try again with a spec
16:36:55 <dael> fantasai: We have dbaron's e-mail. Let's project the spec.
16:37:00 <fantasai> dbaron's requirements were:
16:37:16 <fantasai> 1. selection style shouldn't vary on least common ancestor
16:37:20 <dael> fantasai: His requirements were 1) selection style shouldn't vary on greatest/least common ancestor
16:37:26 <fantasai> 2. default selection style should be representable by UA rules
16:37:32 <dael> fantasai: [types them in IRC]
16:37:33 <fantasai> 3. Authors should override systems default style
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16:37:54 <tantek> please capture any conclusions regarding ::selection in this CSS3UI issue: https://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css3-ui#issue-30 - I'll read changes there afterwards - can't follow line-by-line here in IRC right now.
16:37:59 <fantasai> 4. bg color and text color always cover original color
16:38:09 <fantasai> 5. authors can change within a particular element
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16:38:30 <dael> fantasai: I did some browser testing. I don't think we can solve the problem in #2
16:38:41 <dael> fantasai: I'll go through and we can talk about individual issues.
16:38:55 <dael> fantasai: First 2 are we want to add other types of selection ie spelling errors.
16:39:11 <dael> fantasai: 2nd is we don't have a way of distinguishing active and inactive selectors
16:39:19 <dael> fantasai: I'll skip 3 for now.
16:39:26 <dael> ??: What is inactive
16:39:32 <dael> fantasai: When the window is inactive.
16:39:47 <dael> fantasai: Issue 5 is which prop are here. I think just color and background color
16:39:53 <dael> leaverou: text shadow.
16:39:56 <dael> fantasai: I'll add that.