14:49:01 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #forms
14:49:01 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/10/22-forms-irc
14:49:03 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
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14:49:05 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be IA_XForms
14:49:05 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see IA_XForms()11:00AM scheduled to start in 11 minutes
14:49:06 <trackbot> Meeting: Forms Working Group Teleconference
14:49:06 <trackbot> Date: 22 October 2014
14:49:09 <Steven_> Chair: Steven
14:49:20 <Steven_> Regrets: Erik(possibly)
14:49:25 <Steven_> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2014Oct/0040
14:49:36 <Steven_> Steven_ has changed the topic to: Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2014Oct/0040
14:58:15 <Zakim> IA_XForms()11:00AM has now started
14:58:23 <Zakim> +pfennell
14:58:44 <pfennell> pfennell has joined #forms
14:59:58 <Zakim> +??P26
15:00:07 <Steven> zakim, I am ?
15:00:07 <Zakim> +Steven; got it
15:00:54 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:00:55 <alain> Zakim, I am [IPcaller]
15:00:56 <Zakim> ok, alain, I now associate you with [IPcaller]
15:07:40 <Steven> Topic: Review of section 6
15:07:41 <Steven> https://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/wiki/XForms_2.0#Model_Item_Property_Definitions
15:08:56 <Steven> Philip: Am I right that we are now allowed to bind to the same node several times.
15:09:05 <Steven> Steven: Yes, that was a decision we made.
15:09:17 <Steven> ... People were doing it anyway, so we decided to support it.
15:10:09 <Steven> ... That's what ACTION-1979 is also about, because people are not sure you should be allowed to combine types (too difficult to do right)
15:10:39 <Steven> ... I think it is already widely implemented.
15:10:57 <Steven> Topic: Review of Section 7
15:10:57 <Steven> https://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/wiki/XForms_2.0#The_XForms_Submission_Module
15:10:57 <Steven> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2014Oct/0039.html
15:11:50 <Steven> Steven: All my comments are editorial, spelling, and here and there an error in the text of an example.
15:12:12 <Steven> ... I'm just going to make the changes and people can look at the diffs.
15:12:37 <Steven> ... but Erik and Alain have issues.
15:13:02 <Steven> ... Here is Erik's: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2014Oct/0039.html
15:13:50 <Steven> Steven: 1. Sections 5.2.4 xforms:dayTimeDuration and 5.2.5 xforms:yearMonthDuration:
15:14:04 <Steven> ... anone know what the differences are?
15:14:22 <nvdbleek> nvdbleek has joined #forms
15:14:29 <Steven> s/anone/anyone/
15:14:35 <nvdbleek> zakim, code?
15:14:35 <Zakim> the conference code is 93676 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), nvdbleek
15:15:32 <Steven> .... Erik suggests here there is a difference but I don't know what they are.
15:15:46 <Steven> ... I guess we need more clarification.
15:15:59 <Steven> Steven: "2. In section 7.8 The header Element, we require the nested <name> and
15:15:59 <Steven> <value> elements. By analogy with <item>'s @name / @value, we should
15:15:59 <Steven> also allow for @name / @value attributes.
15:15:59 <Steven> "
15:16:11 <Steven> Steven: I agree with this wholeheartedly
15:16:12 <Zakim> +nvdbleek
15:16:17 <nvdbleek> zakim, pointer?
15:16:17 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, nvdbleek.
15:16:34 <nvdbleek> rssagent, pointe?
15:16:37 <Steven> rrsagent, here?
15:16:37 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2014/10/22-forms-irc#T15-16-37
15:19:01 <Steven> ACTION: Steven to define header/@name @value
15:19:01 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1980 - Define header/@name @value [on Steven Pemberton - due 2014-10-29].
15:19:28 <Steven> Steven: Next point, https://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/wiki/XForms_2.0#The_item_Element
15:19:52 <Steven> ... that looks editorial
15:20:59 <nvdbleek> http://www.w3.org/TR/xmlschema11-2/#yearMonthDuration
15:21:13 <nvdbleek> http://www.w3.org/TR/xpath-functions/#duration-subtypes
15:21:18 <Steven> Nick: Going back to the Duration types, there may be a clash between using the schema type and the XPath type
15:21:56 <Steven> Steven: Can you check it out for us Nick?
15:22:00 <Steven> Nick: I'll do that
15:22:28 <nvdbleek> zakim, mute me
15:22:28 <Zakim> nvdbleek should now be muted
15:22:32 <Steven> Steven: Then Alain's comment: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2014Oct/0041.html
15:23:33 <nvdbleek> zakim, unmute me
15:23:33 <Zakim> nvdbleek should no longer be muted
15:24:12 <Steven> Steven: I remember there was an edge case from long ago
15:24:41 <Steven> Nick: It is because on serialization you can't tell which namespaces might be needed.
15:25:18 <Steven> Steven: What is your actual suggestion, Alain?
15:25:37 <Steven> Alain: I want to know how other implementations handle this.
15:26:04 <Steven> ... in particular whether the XForms declaration is included.
15:27:02 <Steven> Steven: You are only talking about the default behaviour, right Alain?
15:27:18 <Steven> Alain: Yes. I suggest we leave out the XForms namespace as a default
15:28:16 <Steven> Nick: I don't think this would cause any problems.
15:28:53 <Steven> Steven: It would cause a problem if you had a form generating a form
15:29:09 <nvdbleek> <xf:instance>
15:29:32 <nvdbleek> <data><boe myattr=“xf:foo”/></data>
15:29:38 <nvdbleek> </xf:instance>
15:29:51 <Steven> Alain: If the data contains XForms elements then the namespace would be required, and supplied.
15:30:22 <Steven> Nick: That example would break
15:30:36 <Steven> ... not sure if anyone uses it.
15:30:56 <Steven> Steven: Do we make the change.
15:31:14 <Steven> Nick: Harmless; is it worth the effort for other implementations?
15:32:06 <Steven> ACTION: Steven to update section 7.
15:32:06 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1981 - Update section 7. [on Steven Pemberton - due 2014-10-29].
15:32:27 <Steven> Topic: AB/2014-2015 Priorities; Failure to learn from?
15:32:27 <Steven> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2014Oct/0013.html
15:32:47 <Steven> Steven: I am heartened by the replies people have been sending.
15:33:02 <Steven> ... Thanks Alain for pointing it out.
15:33:22 <Steven> ... I intende to send a reply to the AB, and ask for a definition of 'failure'.
15:34:07 <Steven> ... At the time of closing of XHTML2, the membership had voted and placed it as 12th most importnant technology in W3C.
15:34:16 <Steven> ... it was closed despite that
15:34:44 <Steven> ... the XHTML2 features were spread over other groups, such as RDFa
15:35:37 <Steven> ... and with so many active implementations of XForms, it is hard to see it as a failure.
15:35:55 <Steven> ... Unless they are measuring it as "implemented in browser".
15:36:07 <Steven> ... I think the AB should take a broader view
15:36:37 <Steven> Philip: It seems like the AB have not understood how technologies are implemented now.
15:37:05 <nvdbleek> zakim, mute me
15:37:05 <Zakim> nvdbleek should now be muted
15:37:37 <Steven> Steven: I shall write to the AB and tell them that the Forms community don't agree with this characterisation, and send them some examples of where it is used.
15:38:34 <Steven> Topic: ACTION-1979 - Send mail listing options for the bind to multiple
15:38:34 <Steven> types problem
15:38:34 <Steven> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2014Oct/0037.html
15:41:08 <nvdbleek> zakim, unmute me
15:41:08 <Zakim> nvdbleek should no longer be muted
15:41:25 <Steven> Steven: Erik's suggestion is to take "last type bind wins" approach, but points out that this allows dynamic typing.
15:43:09 <Steven> Nick: In XForms, we currently say that textual order of binds is not importnant, but based on dependency graph.
15:43:19 <Steven> s/nant/ant/
15:43:35 <Steven> Nick: SO I don't like changing that.
15:43:40 <Steven> s/SO/So/
15:44:19 <Steven> Philip: The order shouldn't be important from a user's point of view
15:44:33 <Steven> ... so there's a dilemma
15:45:04 <Steven> ... I don't like 1) Least specific type
15:48:41 <Steven> Steven: We could disallowm and give a binding error event (or is it an exception?)
15:48:41 <nvdbleek> In the previous version http://www.w3.org/TR/xforms20/#The_xforms-binding-exception_Event we only had a binding-exception and no binding-error
15:48:46 <Steven> ... Oh wait, we use both
15:49:08 <Steven> Nick: Must be old text; it should be "error" not "exception".
15:49:31 <Steven> ACTION: Steven to check that bind-exception is no longer used.
15:49:31 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1982 - Check that bind-exception is no longer used. [on Steven Pemberton - due 2014-10-29].
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15:53:29 <Steven> Nick: What happens with model bindings that used to generate a bind-exception.
15:53:37 <Steven> Steven: You get teh default model then I suppose
15:53:44 <Steven> s/teh/the/
15:54:14 <Steven> .... or carry on as if @model isn't there.
15:54:52 <Steven> Nick: we need to specify it; make a decision in every place where we changed exception to error.
15:55:15 <Steven> Steven: Can I ask you to collect those together?
15:55:19 <Steven> Nick: Yes.
15:55:42 <Steven> ACTION: Nick to work out what we should do in cases where we have changed bind-exception to bind-error
15:55:43 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1983 - Work out what we should do in cases where we have changed bind-exception to bind-error [on Nick Van Den Bleeken - due 2014-10-29].
15:56:45 <Steven> Topic: TPAC meeting
15:56:45 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/2014/11/TPAC/
15:56:45 <Steven> Meeting 31 Oct, modulo Erik's Halloween march
15:56:50 <Steven> Nick: Where are we meeting?
15:56:59 <Steven> Steven: Let's work that out when we get there.
15:57:12 <Steven> Nick: I'll be there from Saturday
15:57:21 <Steven> Steven: I arrive Monday evening
15:57:44 <Zakim> -pfennell
15:57:45 <Steven> [ADJOURN]
15:57:47 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
15:57:48 <Zakim> -nvdbleek
15:57:49 <Zakim> IA_XForms()11:00AM has ended
15:57:49 <Zakim> Attendees were pfennell, Steven, [IPcaller], nvdbleek
15:58:01 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
15:58:01 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/22-forms-minutes.html Steven
15:58:12 <alain> alain has left #forms
15:59:18 <Steven> present+Alain
15:59:20 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
15:59:20 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/22-forms-minutes.html Steven
16:00:42 <Steven> ACTION: Nick to summarise Duration types clashes
16:00:42 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1984 - Summarise duration types clashes [on Nick Van Den Bleeken - due 2014-10-29].
16:00:47 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
16:00:47 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/22-forms-minutes.html Steven
16:01:21 <Steven> s/nant/ant/
16:01:22 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
16:01:22 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/22-forms-minutes.html Steven
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