14:27:15 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #wai-wcag
14:27:15 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/10/21-wai-wcag-irc
14:27:17 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
14:27:17 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #wai-wcag
14:27:19 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAI_WCAG
14:27:19 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see WAI_WCAG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 33 minutes
14:27:20 <trackbot> Meeting: Web Content Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference
14:27:20 <trackbot> Date: 21 October 2014
14:27:37 <Kenny> zakim, agenda?
14:27:37 <Zakim> I see nothing on the agenda
14:28:13 <yatil_> yatil_ has joined #wai-wcag
14:28:55 <Kenny> agenda+ TPAC Plans
14:29:10 <Kenny> agenda+ October 14 Survey: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/14thOct2014/
14:29:34 <Kenny> agenda+ Response to LC-2972: https://www.w3.org/2006/02/lc-comments-tracker/35422/REC-WCAG20-20081211/2972
14:30:08 <Kenny> agenda+ Techniques Work Review
14:30:08 <Kenny> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Working_Group_Techniques_Development_Assignments
14:30:52 <yatil> yatil has joined #wai-wcag
14:32:28 <Kenny> Regrets+ David_MacDonald, Alistair_Garrison
14:32:33 <Kenny> zakim, agenda?
14:32:33 <Zakim> I see 4 items remaining on the agenda:
14:32:35 <Zakim> 1. TPAC Plans [from Kenny]
14:32:35 <Zakim> 2. October 14 Survey: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/14thOct2014/ [from Kenny]
14:32:35 <Zakim> 3. Response to LC-2972: https://www.w3.org/2006/02/lc-comments-tracker/35422/REC-WCAG20-20081211/2972 [from Kenny]
14:32:35 <Zakim> 4. Techniques Work Review [from Kenny]
14:37:10 <yatil> yatil has joined #wai-wcag
14:38:38 <yatil> yatil has joined #wai-wcag
14:54:43 <AWK> AWK has joined #wai-wcag
14:55:13 <AWK> Zakim, what meeting is this?
14:55:13 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, AWK.
14:55:20 <AWK> Trackbot, start meeting
14:55:22 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
14:55:24 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAI_WCAG
14:55:24 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see WAI_WCAG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 5 minutes
14:55:25 <trackbot> Meeting: Web Content Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference
14:55:25 <trackbot> Date: 21 October 2014
14:55:28 <Joshue> Joshue has joined #wai-wcag
14:55:30 <AWK> Chair: AWK
14:55:35 <AWK> Zakim, Agenda?
14:55:35 <Zakim> I see 4 items remaining on the agenda:
14:55:36 <Zakim> 1. TPAC Plans [from Kenny]
14:55:36 <Zakim> 2. October 14 Survey: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/14thOct2014/ [from Kenny]
14:55:36 <Zakim> 3. Response to LC-2972: https://www.w3.org/2006/02/lc-comments-tracker/35422/REC-WCAG20-20081211/2972 [from Kenny]
14:55:36 <Zakim> 4. Techniques Work Review [from Kenny]
14:56:12 <Kenny> let me know if anything wrong
14:58:22 <Kenny> thanks AWK for get regrets
14:59:05 <Zakim> WAI_WCAG()11:00AM has now started
14:59:13 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
14:59:17 <Joshue> zakim, [IPcaller] is Joshue
14:59:17 <Zakim> +Joshue; got it
14:59:20 <Zakim> +??P7
14:59:27 <Zakim> +AWK
15:00:04 <Kenny> Regrets+ Barry, Christophe, David
15:00:21 <MichaelC> agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2014OctDec/0062.html
15:00:53 <Zakim> +Kenny
15:01:21 <Joshue> zakim, mute me
15:01:21 <Zakim> Joshue should now be muted
15:01:32 <Kathy> Kathy has joined #wai-wcag
15:01:41 <AWK> zakim, who is on the phone?
15:01:41 <Zakim> On the phone I see Joshue (muted), Michael_Cooper (muted), AWK, Kenny
15:01:43 <marcjohlic> marcjohlic has joined #wai-wcag
15:01:48 <Kenny> zakim, mute me
15:01:48 <Zakim> Kenny should now be muted
15:01:56 <Zakim> +Kathy_Wahlbin
15:02:02 <yatil> zakim, call EricE-Skype
15:02:02 <Zakim> ok, yatil; the call is being made
15:02:04 <Zakim> +EricE
15:02:14 <yatil> zakim, nick yatil is EricE
15:02:14 <Zakim> ok, yatil, I now associate you with EricE
15:02:16 <yatil> zakim, mute me
15:02:16 <Zakim> EricE should now be muted
15:02:50 <AWK> zakim, who is on the phone?
15:02:50 <Zakim> On the phone I see Joshue (muted), Michael_Cooper (muted), AWK, Kenny (muted), Kathy_Wahlbin, EricE (muted)
15:03:13 <bbailey> bbailey has joined #wai-wcag
15:03:15 <Zakim> +Bruce_Bailey
15:03:33 <Brent> Brent has joined #wai-wcag
15:03:35 <Zakim> +Marc_Johlic
15:03:49 <bbailey> zakim, i am bruce
15:03:49 <Zakim> ok, bbailey, I now associate you with Bruce_Bailey
15:03:51 <jon_avila> jon_avila has joined #wai-wcag
15:04:22 <Zakim> +jon_avila
15:04:26 <Loretta> Loretta has joined #WAI-WCAG
15:04:50 <Joshue> ack me
15:05:02 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:05:02 <AWK> zakim, who is on the phone?
15:05:04 <Zakim> On the phone I see Joshue, Michael_Cooper (muted), AWK, Kenny (muted), Kathy_Wahlbin, EricE (muted), Bruce_Bailey, Marc_Johlic, jon_avila, [IPcaller] (muted)
15:05:14 <Loretta> zakim, IPCaller is loretta
15:05:14 <Zakim> +loretta; got it
15:05:40 <AWK> Zakim, agenda?
15:05:40 <Zakim> I see 4 items remaining on the agenda:
15:05:41 <Zakim> 1. TPAC Plans [from Kenny]
15:05:41 <Zakim> 2. October 14 Survey: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/14thOct2014/ [from Kenny]
15:05:41 <Zakim> 3. Response to LC-2972: https://www.w3.org/2006/02/lc-comments-tracker/35422/REC-WCAG20-20081211/2972 [from Kenny]
15:05:41 <Zakim> 4. Techniques Work Review [from Kenny]
15:05:48 <Joshue> zakim, mute me
15:05:48 <Zakim> Joshue should now be muted
15:06:35 <Joshue> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Scribe_List
15:06:57 <jon_avila> scribe: jon_avila
15:07:00 <Joshue> ack me
15:07:02 <Zakim> + +1.512.276.aaaa
15:07:09 <Joshue> zakim, mute me
15:07:09 <Zakim> Joshue should now be muted
15:07:21 <AWK> Zakim, aaaa is Brent
15:07:21 <Zakim> +Brent; got it
15:07:40 <AWK> Zakim, take up item 1
15:07:40 <Zakim> agendum 1. "TPAC Plans" taken up [from Kenny]
15:07:44 <jon_avila> TOPIC:  TPAC
15:08:32 <jon_avila> awk: coordinating with EO to talk about WAI Dev and Quick ref project to determine when we can discuss at TPAC.
15:09:13 <jon_avila> awk: Ideas including results from user survey and making conclusions;  Also time to discuss supporting documents.
15:09:44 <jon_avila> awk: Not sure how much direct task force reports we will be able to discuss.    Other ideas from survey including discussion of five year vision and WAI 2020
15:10:15 <jon_avila> awk:  Will also discuss how to get a fully engaged working group and get feedback from members of public.
15:10:55 <jon_avila> awk: official agenda will come out this week.  Will send out directions and list of who is coming will be sent to LGR for Sunday.  Monday will be at event hotel.
15:11:17 <jon_avila> awk: Are there other things/ideas that people would like to comment on for discussion at TPAC?
15:11:39 <Joshue> ack me
15:11:42 <Kathy> yes
15:11:47 <jon_avila> awk: Do the things mentioned sound good?
15:12:10 <jon_avila> JO: Yes, sounds good.
15:12:24 <jon_avila> LGR: Good to discuss bigger long range issues.
15:13:31 <jon_avila> marc: Will be first TPAC.  Would like to see how other approach writing techniques and using Github.    New user can hit log jams in writing new techniques.  Would be helpful to get help.
15:14:25 <jon_avila> awk:  Tuesday will be a day where I will have time if we don't get to do it earlier.
15:16:39 <jon_avila> awk: Judy is on list of planned observers.  Would like to get some of her time for visions and plans for WAI 2020.
15:17:21 <AWK> Zakim, take up item 2
15:17:21 <Zakim> agendum 2. "October 14 Survey: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/14thOct2014/" taken up [from Kenny]
15:17:22 <Joshue> zakim, mute me
15:17:23 <Zakim> Joshue should now be muted
15:17:52 <jon_avila> awk: Not a lot of consensous on survey.
15:18:29 <jon_avila> TOPIC: LC-2961 UPDATED] Remove example 1 from ARIA7
15:18:39 <Zakim> +Katie_Haritos-Shea
15:18:50 <bbailey> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/14thOct2014/results#xq2
15:19:13 <jon_avila> awk:  commenter desire to remove example 1 from ARIA7.
15:19:42 <jon_avila> kw: put in Kim Patch's feedback under Kathy's feedback.
15:19:55 <Ryladog> Ryladog has joined #wai-wcag
15:20:55 <jon_avila> kw:  Kim's point is that user can accidently activate an item if there is hidden link text.  Espeically if there are short or single words.
15:21:53 <jon_avila> awk: If I have a link that says readme and is labelled by text says "Andrew's dissertation" .
15:22:30 <jon_avila> kw: If there is only one match for a word then Dragon will automatically activate it.
15:22:34 <Joshue> ack me
15:23:50 <jon_avila> q?
15:25:03 <Ryladog> q+
15:25:44 <AWK> ack ry
15:25:57 <Joshue> zakim, mute me
15:25:57 <Zakim> Joshue should now be muted
15:26:03 <jon_avila> q?
15:27:29 <jon_avila> khs: How does Siri work on mobile with links on web pages?
15:27:35 <Joshue> ack me
15:28:04 <jon_avila> kw: Don't think that is supported currently on iOS
15:28:19 <jon_avila> q?
15:28:20 <Joshue> zakim, mute me
15:28:20 <Zakim> Joshue should now be muted
15:28:59 <jon_avila> awk: Kim's concern is that hidden link text shouldn't start with click.
15:29:57 <jon_avila> awk: Dragon latest version -- user can say link text or aria-labelledby text to activate a link.
15:30:51 <jon_avila> awk: David has friendly counter proposal referring to the "read more" text also in the aria-labelledby.  e.g Storms hit east coast read more.
15:32:00 <jon_avila> awk: James suggest putting "read more" first in the aria-labelledby reference.
15:32:03 <Joshue> ack me
15:32:03 <jon_avila> awk: Any more comments?
15:32:04 <Joshue> +q
15:32:38 <Zakim> +James_Nurthen
15:32:50 <Joshue> q?
15:32:51 <jon_avila> awk: proposed resolution current says example 1 should be removed.  We need to re-write to adjust and identify the change in example 1.  Should be pretty easy as David gave us code.
15:32:55 <jamesn> jamesn has joined #wai-wcag
15:33:04 <jamesn> rrsagent, make minutes
15:33:04 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/21-wai-wcag-minutes.html jamesn
15:33:16 <Joshue> ack me
15:33:16 <jon_avila> awk: some writing needs to happen.  Anyone wants to do it?
15:34:08 <jon_avila> jo: Pattern is problematic  because the assistive technology currently reads the label and link text
15:34:36 <jon_avila> q?
15:34:44 <jamesn> -1
15:34:45 <jon_avila> q+
15:34:56 <Joshue> ack jon
15:37:31 <jon_avila> james: problems with aria label and aria-describedby.  Described by doesn't solve list of link problem.
15:37:59 <jon_avila> jo: aware of different degress of support.  Want a valid pattern that works.
15:38:37 <jon_avila> james: against AT reading aria label and on-screen text.
15:39:38 <jon_avila> james: aria labels replace not add supplimentary information.  We can inlcude text from scren that is being replaced in accessible name.  We want AT to be consistent with ARIA specification.
15:39:55 <jon_avila> jo: lack of consistency now on how AT handles it.
15:40:20 <jon_avila> james: some AT doesn't use accessibility API
15:40:30 <jon_avila> jo: Title can be used to provide supplimentary inforamtion.
15:41:37 <jon_avila> awk: Update example 1 per David's suggestion. Then we should be good? Does anyone want to update?
15:42:14 <jon_avila> awk: Example would use Local text followed by external text.  Both use labelledby.
15:43:07 <jon_avila> awk: Next call will be two weeks from today.
15:43:40 <jon_avila> jo: will take a crack at updating response now.
15:43:44 <AWK> ACTION: Jon to update LC-2961/ARIA7 response if Josh doesn't get it done during the call
15:43:44 <trackbot> Created ACTION-288 - Update lc-2961/aria7 response if josh doesn't get it done during the call [on Jon Gunderson - due 2014-10-28].
15:44:14 <MichaelC> ack me
15:44:47 <jon_avila> RESOLUTION: Leave open
15:45:10 <jon_avila> TOPIC: [LC-2954 UPDATED] Clarify F68 is applicable for controls that use visible labels
15:45:32 <Joshue> zakim, mute me
15:45:33 <Zakim> Joshue should now be muted
15:46:31 <jon_avila> awk: comment include typos, removing example 3, those that don't agree with removing example 3.  Some don't want to remove title and aria-label from test procedure.
15:47:28 <AWK> https://github.com/awkawk/wcag/compare/AWK-WCAG-Edits?diff=split
15:47:46 <jon_avila> awk: Look at my updated response in url.
15:49:25 <jon_avila> awk: walk through changes in Github.  Starting out, it's just a 4.1.2 technique.  Applicability to controls in general and not whether they have a visual label.
15:50:26 <jon_avila> awk: Change from language about visual labels not associated to no accessible name.  Aligned with accessible name calculation.
15:51:25 <jon_avila> awk: Example really isn't changed -- just made it more HTML5.  Also updated next example to it doesn't have a name and indicates a name can be added using approaches above.
15:52:10 <jon_avila> awk: Big change is in procedure.  All input except type hidden and textarea and button select element check to make sure it has a programmatically determinable name.  Order follow accessible name calculation.  Includes label, title, aria-label, etc.
15:52:27 <jamesn> I think you need to exclude submit and reset too
15:52:29 <jon_avila> awk: Changes technique about a specific edge case to one about accessible names.
15:52:32 <Ryladog> q+
15:52:50 <jon_avila> james: exclude submit and reset as well as they default to valid labels.
15:52:52 <jon_avila> +1
15:53:45 <jon_avila> awk: Could go either way on the submit and reset.
15:54:24 <jon_avila> khs: Is there any way we would want to talk about associating this with the accessible name.  If there are other ways in the future that would give this more legs?
15:54:51 <jon_avila> awk: Do you mean update description to say these are ways in the accessible name calculation?
15:55:06 <jon_avila> khs: Yes.  The point isn't about these ways but about the name calculation.
15:55:17 <jon_avila> q?
15:55:21 <jon_avila> q+
15:56:20 <jon_avila> khs: this mapping provides a programmatic determination.  Mention in description is different from procedure.
15:56:59 <jon_avila> q-
15:57:30 <jon_avila> khs:  want to provide details on background on accessible name calculation.
15:57:39 <Kathy> scribe: Kathy
15:58:10 <Kathy> awk: changes include adding in submit and reset buttons
15:58:34 <Kathy> james: image button default to submit as well, doesn't make sense to include
15:59:02 <Zakim> -jon_avila
15:59:04 <Joshue> Updated response to 2961 at https://www.w3.org/2006/02/lc-comments-tracker/35422/NOTE-WCAG20-TECHS-20140306/2961
15:59:31 <Kathy> awk: doesn't mean that someone shouldn't add other text
15:59:42 <Kathy> james: should match what is on the screen
15:59:54 <Kathy> awk: also add acessbile name calculation
16:00:11 <Kathy> awk: do people feel comfortable with these changes to accept?
16:01:32 <AWK> ACTION: AWK to change F68 proposal to add submit and reset button exclusions and add accessible name calc to the description
16:01:32 <trackbot> Created ACTION-289 - Change f68 proposal to add submit and reset button exclusions and add accessible name calc to the description [on Andrew Kirkpatrick - due 2014-10-28].
16:01:49 <AWK> RESOLUTION: Accept as amended pending ACTION-289
16:02:07 <Kathy> TOPIC: 3. Mobile TF proposed changes to G53:Identifying the purpose of a link using link text combined with the text of the enclosing sentence
16:02:44 <Kathy> awk: we have 10 accept and 2 proposed edits
16:03:35 <Kathy> awk: change user agent and assistive technolgy notes
16:04:21 <Kathy> awk: change In addition, certain mobile devices to In addition, certain AT on certain mobile devices
16:05:38 <Kathy> Katie: wondering about Windows mobile OS narrator and window eyes
16:06:01 <Kathy> awk: david accepts changes but thinks this may get deprecated
16:06:40 <Kathy> awk: anyone object to accepting as amended
16:06:44 <Joshue> ack me
16:06:50 <Kathy> RESOLUTION: accept as amended
16:07:03 <Joshue> -q
16:07:04 <Kathy> TOPIC: Mobile TF proposed changes to G60:Playing a sound that turns off automatically within three seconds
16:07:27 <Joshue> +q to say update to 2961 ready
16:07:53 <Kathy> awk: changes are in the description
16:09:08 <Kathy> awk: goes through comments in survey
16:10:10 <Kathy> awk: general thought it that it is not an accessibility issue
16:11:04 <Joshue> zakim, mute me
16:11:04 <Zakim> Joshue should now be muted
16:12:28 <Kathy> kw:  general discussion was to talk about benefits of the technique for users in other situations
16:13:42 <jamesn> +1 to NOT adding it
16:13:50 <Kathy> awk: not specific to accessibility issue
16:14:37 <AWK> ISSUE: WCAG group should look at expanding G60 beyond just screen reader user impact
16:14:38 <trackbot> Created ISSUE-41 - Wcag group should look at expanding g60 beyond just screen reader user impact.  Please complete additional details at <http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/track/issues/41/edit>.
16:14:54 <Kathy> kw: no objections to taking it out but would like to have this technique updated to include other types of disabilities other than screen readers
16:15:04 <Kathy> RESOLUTIONS:  reject change
16:15:55 <Joshue> ack me
16:15:56 <Zakim> Joshue, you wanted to say update to 2961 ready
16:16:00 <AWK> TOPIC: [LC-2961 UPDATED] Remove example 1 from ARIA7
16:16:18 <Joshue> https://www.w3.org/2006/02/lc-comments-tracker/35422/NOTE-WCAG20-TECHS-20140306/2961
16:20:11 <Kathy> josh - comment updated
16:20:59 <Kathy> awk: any chance that aria-labelledby will be read twice, will there be a loop
16:21:13 <Kathy> james: not according to the ARIA spec
16:21:52 <Kathy> awk: if there are any variations to the user agent support we can update the notes
16:22:04 <Kathy> RESOLUTION: accepted as amended
16:22:11 <AWK> TOPIC: Mobile TF proposed changes to G61:Presenting repeated components in the same relative order each time they appear
16:23:24 <Kathy> awk: these edits are around responsive design
16:23:54 <Kathy> awk: changes in description and to examples
16:24:12 <Kathy> awk: Andrew goes through survey comments
16:24:21 <MichaelC> ack me
16:25:44 <Kathy> awk: the first addition to the example could be in a separate example
16:27:09 <Kathy> michael: didn
16:27:22 <Kathy> t object but it is bending the technique
16:28:33 <Kathy> michael: stands out too much in this technique
16:29:36 <Kathy> awk: didn't feel that it was too strong, if there were a lot of examples then a separate technique may be needed
16:29:40 <Kathy> q+
16:29:51 <Joshue> ack me
16:30:23 <Kathy> josh: suggest text update in survey
16:31:21 <Kathy> josh: should we change to viewport
16:31:54 <Ryladog> q-
16:32:11 <Joshue> JOC: Don't mind really, was just wondering if it was a term in common use amongst RWD people.
16:32:49 <Kathy> RESOLUTION: accept as proposed
16:34:05 <Zakim> -Bruce_Bailey
16:34:07 <Zakim> -Joshue
16:34:08 <Zakim> -James_Nurthen
16:34:09 <Zakim> -Katie_Haritos-Shea
16:34:15 <Zakim> -Kathy_Wahlbin
16:34:17 <Zakim> -AWK
16:34:18 <Zakim> -Michael_Cooper
16:34:19 <Zakim> -Kenny
16:34:20 <Zakim> -loretta
16:34:20 <Zakim> -Marc_Johlic
16:34:24 <Zakim> -EricE
16:34:26 <AWK> trackbot, end meeting
16:34:26 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
16:34:26 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Joshue, Michael_Cooper, AWK, Kenny, Kathy_Wahlbin, EricE, Bruce_Bailey, Marc_Johlic, jon_avila, loretta, +1.512.276.aaaa, Brent,
16:34:29 <Zakim> ... Katie_Haritos-Shea, James_Nurthen
16:34:34 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
16:34:34 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/21-wai-wcag-minutes.html trackbot
16:34:35 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
16:34:35 <RRSAgent> I see 2 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/21-wai-wcag-actions.rdf :
16:34:35 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Jon to update LC-2961/ARIA7 response if Josh doesn't get it done during the call [1]
16:34:35 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/21-wai-wcag-irc#T15-43-44
16:34:35 <RRSAgent> ACTION: AWK to change F68 proposal to add submit and reset button exclusions and add accessible name calc to the description [2]
16:34:35 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/21-wai-wcag-irc#T16-01-32
16:34:43 <Zakim> -Brent
16:34:44 <Zakim> WAI_WCAG()11:00AM has ended
16:34:44 <Zakim> Attendees were Joshue, Michael_Cooper, AWK, Kenny, Kathy_Wahlbin, EricE, Bruce_Bailey, Marc_Johlic, jon_avila, loretta, +1.512.276.aaaa, Brent, Katie_Haritos-Shea, James_Nurthen