11:04:31 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #csvw
11:04:31 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/10/15-csvw-irc
11:04:33 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
11:04:33 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #csvw
11:04:35 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be CSVW
11:04:35 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see DATA_CSVWG()8:00AM scheduled to start in 56 minutes
11:04:36 <trackbot> Meeting: CSV on the Web Working Group Teleconference
11:04:36 <trackbot> Date: 15 October 2014
11:05:33 <ivan> Meeting agenda 2014-10-15: https://www.w3.org/2013/csvw/wiki/Meeting_Agenda_2014-10-15
11:05:47 <ivan> Chair: Jeni
11:06:08 <ivan> Agenda: https://www.w3.org/2013/csvw/wiki/Meeting_Agenda_2014-10-15
11:34:10 <AndyS> AndyS has joined #csvw
11:34:58 <AndyS> AndyS has joined #csvw
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11:54:55 <Zakim> DATA_CSVWG()8:00AM has now started
11:55:02 <Zakim> +??P0
11:55:21 <jtandy> jtandy has joined #csvw
11:55:30 <Zakim> -??P0
11:55:31 <Zakim> DATA_CSVWG()8:00AM has ended
11:55:31 <Zakim> Attendees were
11:56:17 <Zakim> DATA_CSVWG()8:00AM has now started
11:56:24 <Zakim> +??P0
11:56:32 <jtandy> zakim, ??P0 is me
11:56:32 <Zakim> +jtandy; got it
11:58:36 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip
11:58:36 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made
11:58:38 <Zakim> +Ivan
11:59:34 <yakovsh> yakovsh has joined #csvw
12:00:02 <JeniT> JeniT has joined #csvw
12:00:07 <Zakim> + +1.443.650.aaaa
12:00:31 <ivan> zakim, aaaa is yakovsh
12:00:31 <Zakim> +yakovsh; got it
12:01:01 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
12:01:13 <AndyS> zakim, IPCaller is me
12:01:13 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it
12:01:22 <bill-ingram1> bill-ingram1 has joined #csvw
12:01:36 <danbri1> on way
12:02:09 <phila> phila has joined #csvw
12:02:21 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
12:02:50 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
12:02:51 <phila> zakim, ipcaller is me
12:02:52 <Zakim> +phila; got it
12:03:06 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'start telcon', JeniT.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
12:03:16 <jtandy> scribe: Jeremy Tandy
12:03:23 <jtandy> scribenick: jtandy
12:03:49 <Zakim> + +1.217.333.aabb
12:04:06 <ivan> ouch
12:04:07 <bill-ingram1> hi all
12:04:32 <bill-ingram1> me
12:04:56 <Zakim> + +44.207.346.aacc
12:05:00 <danbri1> zakim, aacc is danbri
12:05:00 <Zakim> +danbri; got it
12:05:12 <JeniT> agenda: https://www.w3.org/2013/csvw/wiki/Meeting_Agenda_2014-10-15
12:05:18 <jtandy> scribenick: jtandy
12:05:26 <jtandy> scribe: Jeremy Tandy
12:05:29 <danbri1> -> https://www.w3.org/2013/csvw/wiki/F2F_Agenda_2014-10
12:05:31 <JeniT> TPAC agenda: https://www.w3.org/2013/csvw/wiki/F2F_Agenda_2014-10
12:05:33 <Zakim> -Ivan
12:05:38 <jtandy> topic: TPAC Agenda review
12:06:01 <jtandy> JeniT: introduces the topic;
12:06:10 <ivan> zakim, code?
12:06:10 <Zakim> the conference code is 2789 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), ivan
12:06:49 <Zakim> +Ivan
12:07:02 <jtandy> JeniT: meeting is split into 90-minute chunkcs
12:07:48 <jtandy> ... first session will be overview of the Charter ... so that we can all make sure that we're working on the same topics(!)
12:08:27 <jtandy> ... next 3 sessions will cover metadata at table level (what kind of vocabularies)
12:08:41 <jtandy> ... then how we should model datatypes etc.
12:09:07 <jtandy> ... then looking at how we do notes and annotations on tables, rows, cells etc
12:09:28 <jtandy> JeniT: final session of the day will look at the syntax doc
12:10:06 <jtandy> ... next day will cover multiple CSVs, URL generation, templating support, test suites
12:10:19 <jtandy> ... finish with a review of what we've decided etc.
12:10:42 <jtandy> JeniT: are there any other topics?
12:11:00 <jtandy> danbri1: asks if there's any time for unexpected issues?
12:11:09 <phila> q+
12:11:18 <JeniT> ack phila
12:11:21 <jtandy> JeniT: only in the final slot ... but if there's something we can drop then ...
12:11:56 <jtandy> phila: talks about "management" type stuff ... is worried about the size of the group & capacity to do implementation and test
12:12:19 <jtandy> ... can we use TPAC to ask where the support from W3C Members has gone?
12:12:29 <ivan> q+
12:12:34 <jtandy> ... CSVW is essential, we need more help!
12:12:36 <JeniT> ack ivan
12:13:00 <jtandy> JeniT: suggests that we try to put this "request for more resource" into the first day's overview session
12:13:18 <danbri1> q+ to ask team contacts if charter should be considered frozen vs maleable
12:13:31 <jtandy> ivan: do we need to discuss the topics that the group _will not_ cover?
12:13:52 <jtandy> ... multiple CSVs, SQL support etc.
12:14:12 <jtandy> JeniT: let's talk about this in the overview session - to set the expectations
12:14:17 <jtandy> q+
12:14:25 <AndyS> zakim, who is on the phone?
12:14:25 <Zakim> On the phone I see jtandy, yakovsh, AndyS, JeniT, phila, bill-ingram1, danbri, Ivan
12:15:29 <JeniT> ack danbri
12:15:29 <Zakim> danbri, you wanted to ask team contacts if charter should be considered frozen vs maleable
12:15:33 <jtandy> ivan: we have some basic decisions on the approach we take on things like conversions that might affect how we proceed from here ... and the resources required
12:16:03 <ivan> q+
12:16:14 <jtandy> danbri1: specifically about multiple CSVs, templating seems to be the best way to do this - based on experience with R2RML
12:16:42 <jtandy> ... asks phila & ivan about how we can modify the charter if needed?
12:17:09 <jtandy> ivan: adding new work to the charter is not allowed; such extensions require approval of Membership
12:17:33 <jtandy> ... if we decide _not_ to do things (because of good reasons) we can report this back to the director ...
12:17:38 <jtandy> phila: agrees.
12:17:48 <JeniT> q?
12:18:07 <jtandy> danbri1: so we can declare not to do stuff because of capacity
12:18:21 <JeniT> ack jtandy
12:18:26 <jtandy> phila: what can we collectively do to avoid this happening -
12:19:22 <JeniT> ack ivan
12:19:26 <jtandy> jtandy: notes that our proposal to (possibly) use a community group for the templating should be mentioned
12:19:32 <jtandy> JeniT: adds a note
12:20:15 <jtandy> ivan: the R2RML story is fine; but this is for RDF only ... and is uneasy to work on a technology that _only_ works for RDF to the exclusion of XML and JSON
12:20:43 <jtandy> [danbri's laptop crashed when Ivan mentioned this!!!]
12:21:57 <jtandy> danbri1: converting CSV to XML and JSON without the additional semantics doesn't add much ... this is where the semantic web technologies add value
12:22:13 <jtandy> ivan: notes that this is a longer discussion (for later)
12:22:24 <JeniT> q?
12:23:10 <jtandy> danbri1: let's not walk before we run, let's make sure we can map one CSV file before trying to deal with several CSVs!
12:23:16 <phila> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35125/TPAC2014/registrants#CSV
12:23:31 <jtandy> danbri1: asks about registered Observers ...
12:23:41 <jtandy> ... are they all approved?
12:23:47 <danbri2> danbri2 has joined #csvw
12:23:49 <phila> Phil Archer (W3C Staff) : attending Monday, Tuesday
12:23:49 <phila> Gregg Kellogg (W3C Invited Experts) : attending Monday, Tuesday
12:23:49 <phila> Jeremy Tandy (Met Office) : attending Monday, Tuesday
12:23:49 <phila> Jeni Tennison (W3C Invited Experts) : attending Monday, Tuesday
12:23:50 <phila> Erik Mannens (iMinds) : attending Monday
12:23:52 <phila> Dan Brickley (Google, Inc.) : attending Monday, Tuesday
12:23:54 <phila> Axel Polleres (WU (Wirschaftsuniversität Wien) - Vienna University of Economics and Business) : attending Monday, Tuesday
12:23:57 <phila> William Ingram (University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign) : attending Monday, Tuesday
12:23:59 <phila> Eric Prud'hommeaux (W3C Staff) : attending Monday, Tuesday
12:24:01 <phila> Eric Stephan (Pacific Northwest National Laboratory) : attending Monday, Tuesday
12:24:03 <phila> Steven Adler (IBM Corporation) : attending Tuesday
12:24:05 <phila> R.V. Guha (not affiliated to a W3C Member) : attending Tuesday
12:24:07 <phila> Guests
12:24:09 <phila> Ralph Swick (W3C Staff) : attending Monday, Tuesday
12:24:11 <phila> Hadley Beeman (W3C Invited Experts) : attending Monday, Tuesday
12:24:13 <phila> Carlos Laufer (Department of Informatics, PUC-Rio) : attending Monday, Tuesday
12:24:15 <jtandy> ivan: there are a number of people listed as  members of the group who are not formally members ... admin issues!
12:24:15 <phila> Jeff Jaffe (W3C Staff) : attending Monday, Tuesday
12:24:19 <phila> Reinaldo Ferraz (NIC.br - Brazilian Network Information Center) : attending Monday, Tuesday
12:24:21 <phila> Zheng Huang : attending Monday
12:24:23 <phila> Narumichi SAKAI (Toshiba Corporation) : attending Monday, Tuesday
12:24:25 <phila> Jaesung Han (Samsung Electronics Co., Ltd.) : attending Tuesday
12:24:27 <phila> Tim Berners-Lee (W3C Staff) : attending Tuesday
12:24:29 <phila> Bobby Tung : attending Tuesday
12:24:31 <jtandy> JeniT: asks ivan to sort out the listing
12:24:31 <phila> Satoru Takagi (KDDI CORPORATION) : attending Tuesday
12:24:33 <phila> Alan Iida (Nippon Telegraph & Telephone Corp. (NTT)) : attending Tuesday
12:25:18 <jtandy> JeniT: when we do the introductions, let's make sure we identify "real members" and "observers"
12:25:35 <jtandy> danbri2: let's treat this as a recruitment exercise to get more help!
12:25:43 <danbri2> that sounds fair
12:25:57 <jtandy> JeniT: did that work?
12:26:12 <jtandy> AndyS: yes - the most interested observers did the work
12:26:26 <jtandy> ... and it breaks down an "us and them" feel
12:26:32 <jtandy> JeniT: great - let's do that
12:27:02 <jtandy> JeniT: any other suggestions about how to run the face to face
12:27:10 <jtandy> [none]
12:27:27 <jtandy> danbri: are there any other TPAC events to be aware of on Mon & Tue
12:27:37 <jtandy> ... shall we go to the bar afterwards?
12:27:50 <jtandy> ivan: suggests that we reserve Monday eve for follow on .
12:28:27 <jtandy> danbri: yes - to chat informally
12:28:40 <jtandy> topic: timing issues (for people dialling in)
12:29:01 <jtandy> JeniT: are there any particular sessions that AndyS wants to dial into?
12:29:30 <jtandy> AndyS: no - will just try to fit in; no guarantees to dial in but will try
12:29:52 <jtandy> JeniT: ok - but please advise if you _do_ want things moved around to suit
12:30:52 <jtandy> phila: notes that the AC meeting overlaps with the WG meeting on Tuesday afternoon
12:32:23 <jtandy> topic: preparatory work
12:32:38 <jtandy> JeniT: overview session is OK - plenty of documentation
12:32:50 <jtandy> ... can't think of anything we need to prep for that
12:32:54 <jtandy> [agreement]
12:33:28 <jtandy> JeniT: have had good discussion about metadata (on mailing lists) ... it would be good to provide a summary for observers
12:33:43 <jtandy> danbri: suggests to "wing it"
12:34:03 <jtandy> JeniT: data typing ... haven't had much discussion on this yet.
12:34:13 <ivan> q+
12:34:16 <JeniT> ack ivan
12:34:19 <jtandy> ... there is input from other specs that we can point to
12:36:13 <jtandy> JeniT: (responds to ivan) ... the data type discussions will look at all the different types of implementations that people might have; validation only, transformation etc.
12:36:35 <jtandy> JeniT: will prepare an introductory doc for this session... ACTION
12:36:38 <JeniT> ACTION: JeniT to do brief post on datatype-related issues
12:36:38 <trackbot> Created ACTION-33 - Do brief post on datatype-related issues [on Jeni Tennison - due 2014-10-22].
12:37:06 <ivan> q+
12:37:11 <JeniT> ack ivan
12:37:20 <jtandy> JeniT: notes and annotation session - also lacking formal discussions so far?
12:37:48 <jtandy> ivan: is this something that we need a long discussion about or can we (just) offload this to the Annotation WG?
12:37:52 <danbri> q+ "Annotation is just another word for description; not optimistic about offloading."
12:37:58 <JeniT> ack danbri
12:38:03 <jtandy> ... I would prefer to say that we have a pointer to what they do
12:38:47 <jtandy> danbri: loves the annotations work but is scared about the scope ... annotation is (basically) description ... [and that covers everything]
12:38:49 <jtandy> q+
12:39:05 <danbri> (I did discuss w/ someone from that community who was frustrated that they're not doing enough around data annotation - focus seems to be on document-oriented sticky notes...)
12:39:08 <jtandy> JeniT: lets talk about the approach we should take
12:39:25 <jtandy> ... to progress this subject
12:39:55 <jtandy> JeniT: asks ivan if a summary on the Annotation WG deliverables can be provided?
12:39:56 <danbri> "The working group intends to use the http://www.openannotation.org/spec/core/ and http://www.openannotation.org/spec/extension/ specifications," http://www.w3.org/annotation/
12:40:03 <danbri> http://www.openannotation.org/spec/core/
12:40:18 <jtandy> ivan: will try to get the chairs of the Annotation WG to attend that session
12:40:23 <danbri> q+ to ask 'what about non-rdf ...'
12:40:44 <JeniT> ACTION: Ivan to negotiate with Annotation WG chairs to have someone come & talk to us at F2F
12:40:44 <trackbot> Created ACTION-34 - Negotiate with annotation wg chairs to have someone come & talk to us at f2f [on Ivan Herman - due 2014-10-22].
12:40:44 <jtandy> ... I think that they are on site for the whole week, but with their WG session on Tuesday
12:40:58 <JeniT> ack jtandy
12:42:05 <jtandy> jtandy: suggests that people bring real examples to work on (& validate) with the proposals
12:42:11 <JeniT> ack danbri
12:42:11 <Zakim> danbri, you wanted to ask 'what about non-rdf ...'
12:42:27 <jtandy> JeniT: good point ... and for people also to have read the documents first!
12:42:42 <jtandy> danbri: notes that their work is currently very RDF focused
12:43:00 <jtandy> ivan: but they are being driven toward less RDF
12:43:03 <jtandy> JeniT
12:43:30 <jtandy> JeniT: final session on Monday is the syntax doc; don't think this needs any more prep
12:43:55 <danbri> re multiple CSVs, Anastasia points at http://rml.io/RML_examples.html which has some example (cities) with multi-csv descriptions
12:44:31 <jtandy> JeniT: first session tuesday is multiple CSVs ... I think it would be useful to construct a note about the data package (?), my experiments, and the work of the TAG
12:44:51 <jtandy> ... and Google's dataset publishing language (DSPL)
12:45:06 <danbri> re https://developers.google.com/public-data/overview
12:45:20 <jtandy> danbri: offers to provide notes on DSPL and RML approach
12:45:31 <JeniT> ACTION: JeniT to pull together note on multiple CSVs (datapackaging, UC-4, TAG packaging work)
12:45:32 <trackbot> Created ACTION-35 - Pull together note on multiple csvs (datapackaging, uc-4, tag packaging work) [on Jeni Tennison - due 2014-10-22].
12:45:45 <JeniT> ACTION: danbri to pull together note on multiple CSVs (RML, DSPL)
12:45:46 <trackbot> Created ACTION-36 - Pull together note on multiple csvs (rml, dspl) [on Dan Brickley - due 2014-10-22].
12:45:55 <ivan> q+
12:45:58 <JeniT> ack ivan
12:47:02 <jtandy> ivan: wonders if the order of sessions on multiple csvs, identifiers and template support should be reversed ... we don't have a clear decision on the templating support yet
12:47:19 <jtandy> ... and the identifiers relate to the template issue
12:47:26 <jtandy> JeniT: agrees
12:47:32 <jtandy> +1
12:48:03 <jtandy> JeniT: preparation around templating support ... wing it on the day and point to our discussions.
12:49:31 <JeniT> ACTION: jtandy to provide summary of RFC6570
12:49:31 <trackbot> Created ACTION-37 - Provide summary of rfc6570 [on Jeremy Tandy - due 2014-10-22].
12:49:43 <jtandy> ivan: wonders if a short description (high level overview) of the URI templating RFC should be prepared
12:49:50 <jtandy> jtandy: offers to do this
12:50:05 <jtandy> JeniT: other prep?
12:50:28 <jtandy> danbri: will try to do more work ... mustache based, RML based ...
12:50:39 <jtandy> ivan: shall I do some slides on my experiement
12:50:50 <jtandy> JeniT: yes please!
12:50:54 <JeniT> ACTION: ivan to create some slides on his experiemental templating stuff
12:50:54 <trackbot> Created ACTION-38 - Create some slides on his experiemental templating stuff [on Ivan Herman - due 2014-10-22].
12:50:58 <jtandy> q+
12:51:04 <JeniT> ack jtandy
12:52:21 <jtandy> JeniT: is hoping to work through ideas and experiments for each session before launching into the discussions
12:53:00 <jtandy> JeniT: next is testing suites ... what is the normal approach for test suites
12:53:45 <jtandy> ivan: notes that Gregg has an excellent track record on setting up test suites for RDFa etc. ... and hopes that Gregg could present this work as an example
12:53:51 <JeniT> ACTION: ivan to ask Gregg to prepare something around test suites for F2F
12:53:51 <trackbot> Created ACTION-39 - Ask gregg to prepare something around test suites for f2f [on Ivan Herman - due 2014-10-22].
12:54:12 <jtandy> JeniT: and that leaves just the wrap up.
12:54:37 <JeniT> ACTION: JeniT to write to group around general requirements prior to F2F
12:54:38 <trackbot> Created ACTION-40 - Write to group around general requirements prior to f2f [on Jeni Tennison - due 2014-10-22].
12:54:59 <phila> Data shapes, DWBP etc
12:55:02 <jtandy> ... basic prep for everyone includes - read the specs, bring experiments, ...
12:55:15 <jtandy> danbri: what should we aim to do on Friday
12:55:25 <jtandy> ... (and thu)
12:56:03 <jtandy> [partipants indicate TAG, Data on the web BP, Data shapes etc.]
12:56:39 <jtandy> phila: DWBP has just released a new UC doc; aim will be to talk about the requirements arising from that.
12:57:09 <jtandy> ... strategy on thu morning, sleeves rolled up on thu afternoon and practical steps on fri.
12:57:47 <jtandy> phila: asks about Taxis from airport.
12:58:09 <jtandy> JeniT: let's coordinate by email.
12:58:26 <danbri> (gotta run, meeting room being taken)
12:58:31 <Zakim> -danbri
12:58:50 <jtandy> JeniT: closes the meeting
12:58:58 <Zakim> -phila
12:58:59 <Zakim> -bill-ingram1
12:58:59 <Zakim> -jtandy
12:59:00 <Zakim> -JeniT
12:59:00 <Zakim> -Ivan
12:59:01 <bill-ingram1> bill-ingram1 has left #csvw
12:59:09 <Zakim> -AndyS
12:59:11 <Zakim> -yakovsh
12:59:12 <Zakim> DATA_CSVWG()8:00AM has ended
12:59:12 <Zakim> Attendees were jtandy, Ivan, +1.443.650.aaaa, yakovsh, AndyS, JeniT, phila, +1.217.333.aabb, bill-ingram1, +44.207.346.aacc, danbri
12:59:32 <AndyS> AndyS has left #csvw
12:59:33 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
12:59:33 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/15-csvw-minutes.html ivan
12:59:49 <ivan> trackbot, end telcon
12:59:49 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
12:59:49 <Zakim> sorry, trackbot, I don't know what conference this is
12:59:57 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
12:59:57 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/15-csvw-minutes.html trackbot
12:59:58 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
12:59:58 <RRSAgent> I see 8 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/15-csvw-actions.rdf :
12:59:58 <RRSAgent> ACTION: JeniT to do brief post on datatype-related issues [1]
12:59:58 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/15-csvw-irc#T12-36-38
12:59:58 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ivan to negotiate with Annotation WG chairs to have someone come & talk to us at F2F [2]
12:59:58 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/15-csvw-irc#T12-40-44
12:59:58 <RRSAgent> ACTION: JeniT to pull together note on multiple CSVs (datapackaging, UC-4, TAG packaging work) [3]
12:59:58 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/15-csvw-irc#T12-45-31
12:59:58 <RRSAgent> ACTION: danbri to pull together note on multiple CSVs (RML, DSPL) [4]
12:59:58 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/15-csvw-irc#T12-45-45
12:59:58 <RRSAgent> ACTION: jtandy to provide summary of RFC6570 [5]
12:59:58 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/15-csvw-irc#T12-49-31
12:59:58 <RRSAgent> ACTION: ivan to create some slides on his experiemental templating stuff [6]
12:59:58 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/15-csvw-irc#T12-50-54
12:59:58 <RRSAgent> ACTION: ivan to ask Gregg to prepare something around test suites for F2F [7]
12:59:58 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/15-csvw-irc#T12-53-51
12:59:58 <RRSAgent> ACTION: JeniT to write to group around general requirements prior to F2F [8]
12:59:58 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/15-csvw-irc#T12-54-37