14:57:12 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #html-media
14:57:12 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/10/07-html-media-irc
14:57:14 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
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14:57:16 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 63342
14:57:16 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see HTML_WG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 3 minutes
14:57:17 <trackbot> Meeting: HTML Media Task Force Teleconference
14:57:17 <trackbot> Date: 07 October 2014
14:57:26 <paulc> zakim, who is on the phone?
14:57:26 <Zakim> HTML_WG()11:00AM has not yet started, paulc
14:57:28 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, bevans, paulc, trackbot
14:59:29 <paulc> zakim, what is the code?
14:59:29 <Zakim> the conference code is 63342 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), paulc
14:59:43 <Zakim> HTML_WG()11:00AM has now started
14:59:50 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
14:59:53 <paulc> zakim, who is on the phone?
14:59:53 <Zakim> On the phone I see [Microsoft]
15:00:04 <paulc> zakim, [Microsoft] is me
15:00:04 <Zakim> +paulc; got it
15:00:30 <paulc> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-media/2014Oct/0013.html
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15:01:02 <Zakim> +jdsmith
15:01:06 <jdsmith> jdsmith has joined #html-media
15:01:13 <paulc> F2F information for Oct 30-31: https://www.w3.org/wiki/HTML/wg/2014-10-Agenda
15:01:18 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
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15:02:23 <Zakim> +ddorwin
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15:02:37 <Zakim> +davide
15:02:40 <Zakim> +markw
15:02:43 <paulc> zakim, who is on the phone?
15:02:43 <Zakim> On the phone I see paulc, jdsmith, [Microsoft], ddorwin, davide, markw
15:03:01 <bevans> +q
15:03:17 <paulc> zakim, [Microsoft] is bevans
15:03:17 <Zakim> +bevans; got it
15:03:18 <Zakim> +geguchi
15:03:23 <paulc> ack be
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15:05:13 <paulc> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-media/2014Oct/0013.html
15:05:59 <paulc> scribenick: paulc
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15:06:13 <paulc> zakim, generate the minutes
15:06:13 <Zakim> I don't understand 'generate the minutes', paulc
15:06:21 <paulc> rrsagent, generate the minutes
15:06:21 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/07-html-media-minutes.html paulc
15:06:30 <Zakim> -markw
15:06:43 <paulc> Topic: Roll call
15:06:55 <paulc> Zakim, who is on the call?
15:06:55 <Zakim> On the phone I see paulc, jdsmith, bevans, ddorwin, davide, geguchi
15:07:07 <Zakim> +markw
15:07:14 <paulc> Topic: HTML WG F2F meeting plans, Fri Oct 31
15:07:40 <paulc> See http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-media/2014Oct/0007.html for Paul's plan to meet Fri AM Oct 31
15:07:55 <paulc> See also https://www.w3.org/wiki/HTML/wg/2014-10-Agenda#Day_2
15:08:33 <paulc> Topic: Bug 26776 - Diagnosing and resolving CDM errors needs a numeric systemCode (deleted with MediaKeyError)
15:08:51 <paulc> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=26776#c8
15:09:04 <paulc> MediaCapture have the same problem as we do.
15:09:13 <paulc> Can we get a volunteer to work with them on this topic.
15:09:34 <Zakim> +BobLund
15:10:15 <paulc> Their proposal is "I suggest we combine forces and ask for a (long or DOMString) secondaryArgument on DOMException at least as a stopgap solution "
15:10:53 <markw> q+
15:11:02 <paulc> Jerry will take on this coordination and will use the IE participants on MediaCapture to make the connection.
15:11:28 <paulc> Mark: This would work for us but not sure if the DOM people will like this.
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15:11:35 <paulc> ack markw
15:11:38 <Zakim> + +1.408.536.aaaa
15:11:54 <joesteele> Zakim, aaaa is me
15:11:54 <Zakim> +joesteele; got it
15:11:55 <paulc> Mark:  We need to engage people like Anne to see if there is any chance this would be acceptable.
15:13:02 <paulc> Topic: Bug 25966 - Use ArrayBufferView and ArrayBuffer instead of Uint8Array in APIs
15:13:15 <paulc> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=25966#c4
15:13:42 <paulc> David: I reopened this and it will be fixed after the Respec editing is done.
15:13:55 <paulc> Mark: There is an IDL facility for this.
15:14:03 <paulc> David: That is why I re-opened this bug.
15:14:36 <joesteele> +q
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15:15:22 <paulc> Topic: Bug 25923 - isTypeSupported should be asynchronous
15:15:40 <paulc> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=25923
15:16:09 <paulc> Discussion thread: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-media/2014Oct/0002.html  (modified proposal)
15:16:35 <paulc> David;  This solves the original Mozilla bug and is okay with other developers.
15:16:48 <paulc> ... same axis as used by Webmedia
15:17:06 <paulc> ... also solving other issue on capabilities not supported by a list of strings
15:17:41 <paulc> ... you provide a list of items supported and you are returned the first one supported
15:17:49 <paulc> ... still some outstanding questions
15:18:05 <paulc> ... questions will become clearer as spec text is written
15:18:24 <ddorwin> s/Webmedia/Web MIDI/
15:18:29 <joesteele> q-
15:19:05 <paulc> David: I am looking for feedback but the proposal solves not only the original bug but other problems
15:19:16 <paulc> ... will go in this direction without more feedback
15:19:36 <paulc> ... will be implemented before the F2F but after the Respec editorial work
15:20:10 <paulc> Joe: Will there a list of video capabilities?
15:20:23 <paulc> David: Same as in isTypeSupported.
15:20:33 <paulc> Joe: Not constrained and that is what I wanted to know.
15:20:34 <joesteele> thanks
15:20:54 <paulc> Jerry:  Why did you split into audio and video systems?
15:21:15 <paulc> David: Genernally wanted to permit different projections.  Proposal referenced a former bug.
15:21:37 <paulc> ... May be someone wants greater protection for 24-bit audio.
15:21:44 <ddorwin> s/different projections/different protections/
15:21:50 <paulc> ... Did this for flexability?
15:22:05 <paulc> s/?//
15:22:15 <joesteele> examples would be Dolby, DTS -- both are concerned more about audio protection
15:22:29 <paulc> Topic: Bug 26838 - Normatively address vulnerabilities related to initData contained in media data
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15:22:51 <paulc> skipping this item for now
15:22:58 <paulc> Topic: Bug 26372 - Report issues/events not related to a specific method call
15:23:10 <paulc> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=26372
15:23:27 <paulc> Discussion thread: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-media/2014Sep/0023.htm
15:23:46 <paulc> David: Trying to figure out how to report all errors
15:23:56 <paulc> ... eg keys not be usable or not available
15:23:57 <joesteele> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-media/2014Sep/0023.html
15:24:06 <paulc> ... how do we want to provide the status
15:24:18 <paulc> ... how do we do this in ECMAScript
15:24:40 <paulc> ... Current direction seems to be map-like as in new WebIDL
15:24:50 <paulc> ... or object.observe
15:25:05 <paulc> ... probably go with map-like thing which you can iterate over
15:25:23 <joesteele> q+
15:25:29 <paulc> David: Not much discussion but the map-like proposal looks good
15:25:30 <markw> +1 to maplike and event giving the key ids added of changed
15:25:51 <paulc> Joe: my objection to the map-like direction is how does a developer observe changes to the map
15:25:54 <markw> s/of changed/or changed/
15:26:07 <paulc> David: There would be an event like "keys changed"
15:26:16 <markw> q+
15:26:26 <paulc> ack joe
15:26:50 <ddorwin> s/an event like "keys changed"/a simple event like "keyschange"/
15:27:18 <paulc> Joe: Going down map direction.  The event will point us to the map change?
15:27:58 <paulc> David: Observable would give you a list of changes but you would have to figure out your own state.
15:28:22 <paulc> David; Option 4 was an alternative - report all the changes ie poor man observable
15:28:44 <paulc> David: Basic facility would be "something has changed" and the app needs to figure this out
15:28:55 <paulc> ack markw
15:29:14 <paulc> Mark: It would be nice if the keys changed event gave an exact list of changed keys
15:29:17 <joesteele> q+
15:29:25 <paulc> ack joe
15:30:03 <paulc> Joe: I may object to the map facility since it creates data structure that might not be useful ie for key transitions
15:30:22 <paulc> Joe: Not against the map since it may be overhead that we don't need
15:30:31 <paulc> s/since/but/
15:30:51 <paulc> David: The IDL has lots of facilities to use the CDM provided information
15:31:18 <paulc> David: Modelled after ECMAScript maps which developers should be used to
15:31:38 <paulc> Joe: Looks like it has all the accessors needed.  Not sure how easy it is to construct.
15:31:54 <paulc> paul: what is timetable for this one.
15:32:19 <paulc> David: After 26372 and MAYBE before the F2F.
15:32:44 <joesteele> I will defer to the browser implementors on this one -- not something I think would be always used, but if overhead is low I have no problem with it
15:32:45 <paulc> Topic: Bug 26887 - Allowing license servers and CDMs to control data persistence and secure release
15:33:01 <paulc> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=26887
15:33:21 <paulc> paul: Most recent discussion has been in the bug in the last 2 weeks.
15:33:32 <paulc> Jerry: I asked for this to be on today's agenda.
15:33:55 <paulc> ... I raised the concern that finding a single solution for both problems might be hard
15:34:15 <paulc> ... There is sitll disagreemen on whether the proposed model belongs in EME
15:34:39 <paulc> ... There are lower level problem outstanding that can be fine tuned BUT
15:34:42 <markw> q+
15:34:52 <joesteele> q+
15:34:54 <paulc> ... we need to get agreement on the higher level model
15:35:15 <ddorwin> Nobody has argued that the license can't specify whether the license is stored. The current spec just requires that a "persistent" session be used.
15:35:29 <ddorwin> q+
15:36:00 <paulc> ack markw
15:36:14 <paulc> Mark: Not correc to think this as two competing models
15:36:26 <paulc> ... the spec does not preclude the license containing extra information
15:36:46 <paulc> ... current status is that the app and license need to specify if the license can be stored
15:36:55 <paulc> s/correc /correct/
15:37:18 <paulc> ... other distinct issues are a) can the CDM re-use the stored information
15:37:57 <ddorwin> +1 to what Mark said
15:38:05 <paulc> ... I don't have a general problem with re-using InitData but there are use cases where the app needs to clearly state how a license should be reused.
15:38:24 <paulc> Jerry: Maybe an attribute to force a new license to be acquired
15:38:36 <paulc> ack joe
15:39:05 <paulc> Joe: I agree with Mark.  I would need or would like to see a specific flag
15:39:32 <paulc> ... the default case we would use cached licenses so there needs to be a flag to go around that
15:39:40 <paulc> ... we don't have those options today
15:39:54 <paulc> ... load is part of the that flag but not the whole story
15:40:10 <paulc> ... I will add that into the bug (been busy with other items)
15:40:41 <paulc> ... For us LoadSession and CreateSession cause us to cache the InitData
15:40:58 <paulc> ... This bug tries to split those apart.
15:41:30 <paulc> Jerry: The proposal is to eliminate LoadSession
15:42:25 <paulc> ... we concentrate on CreateSession and let it re-use an existing license and skip some steps
15:42:28 <paulc> ack dd
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15:42:47 <markw_> q+
15:42:50 <ddorwin> LoadSession is important for multiple use case. It doesn’t have to be removed to solve your scenario.
15:42:53 <paulc> David: I have already identified issue with there being no sessions
15:42:59 <ddorwin> When thinking about solutions: Could have a SessionId lookup based on initData. Gives the application control with the alternative lookup you want.
15:43:16 <joesteele> q+
15:43:31 <paulc> paulc: self-scribing like David is doing is a great model for others to use
15:43:59 <ddorwin> Nobody has argued that the license can't specify whether the license is stored. The current spec just requires that a "persistent" session be used.
15:44:42 <markw_> There are cases where there are multiple licenses cached for the same content item. The application needs to be able to specify which one.
15:44:50 <paulc> ack markw
15:45:25 <ddorwin> +1 to markw_. A unique ID is the only way to enable this.
15:45:27 <paulc> Mark: Session id was the way to specify the license to use
15:45:54 <paulc> ... you could have different kinds of licenses
15:46:10 <paulc> ... we need to be able to handle these use cases
15:46:29 <paulc> Jerry: What is the use case for different license and how does it matter?
15:46:54 <paulc> Mark: Maybe there is a preview license and a full license with restrictions.
15:47:04 <paulc> ... you need to be careful what license to use
15:47:09 <paulc> ack joe
15:47:43 <paulc> Joe: I guess the issue I have with LoadSession the way it is, is can the Session loaded go off and get new licenses?
15:47:53 <markw_> s/preview license and a full license with restrictions/preview license with restrictions and a full license that has side-effects when used/
15:48:02 <ddorwin> q+
15:48:02 <paulc> ... How do I tell the CDM to NOT use existing licenses?
15:48:29 <paulc> Joe: Another point is that you need to be able to stop the CDM using cached licenses.
15:48:33 <paulc> Ack dd
15:50:01 <paulc> David: Let's look at the existing rules in the document.  If there is no Session then it is not possible to use cached licenses.
15:50:39 <paulc> Joe: The exact issue is "what is the spirit in the spec?"
15:50:57 <markw_> I don't think there is a disagreement about whether there are such things as cached licenses. But you need to have a session to use them.
15:51:12 <paulc> ... The spec permits the CDM to cache licenses ...
15:51:25 <paulc> David: I disagree that the spec permits that.
15:51:41 <paulc> ... if we are missing that normative text then we need to fix that
15:51:41 <jdsmith> q+
15:52:29 <paulc> Mark: Are you saying that the CreateSession permits you to use a cached license.
15:52:34 <paulc> Joe: yes
15:52:43 <jdsmith> q-
15:53:05 <paulc> David:  We seem to be disagreeing whether you can use a cached license or have to specifically load it.
15:53:18 <markw_> q+
15:53:22 <BobLund> q+
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15:53:46 <paulc> Jerry:  the model Joe is asking is the one that this bug is asking for
15:53:55 <paulc> ack markw
15:54:45 <BobLund> q-
15:55:16 <joesteele> my problem is that generateRequest was added as a solution to this without fully answering everyones issues with it
15:55:34 <joesteele> generateRequest was not acceptable as a solution to this issue
15:55:44 <paulc> Jerry: I got some feedback today
15:55:49 <markw_> generateRequest (aka createSession) presently doesn't allow re-use of cached data because it requires a licenserequest message to be generated
15:56:13 <paulc> Jerry: MSFT participants will try to modify the proposal and ensure wide discussion
15:56:38 <markw_> for me it could be fine to allow createSession (rename init?) to re-use cached data, but we have to solve the problem of disambiguating multiple stored records keyed of the same initData and the problem of allowing the app to prevent re-use
15:56:53 <paulc> Topic: Bug 26811 - Separate definitions of Initialization Data Types from Stream Format parsing
15:57:16 <paulc> Buig 26811 is blocking Bob Lund's possible work on Bug 26738
15:57:21 <paulc> s/Buig/Bug/
15:57:50 <paulc> paul: When will 26811 be done?
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15:58:13 <paulc> David: It is still a lower priority that the bugs that could shape the API.
15:58:47 <paulc> Paul: 26811 will probably not be done before the end of Oct
15:58:58 <paulc> David: You can probably get some of the content ready
15:59:12 <paulc> Bob: I would prefer to wait so that I don't do double work.
15:59:47 <Zakim> -paulc
16:00:22 <Zakim> -joesteele
16:00:24 <Zakim> -geguchi
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16:01:31 <paulc_> rrsagent, generate the minutes
16:01:31 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/07-html-media-minutes.html paulc_
16:01:48 <Zakim> -BobLund
16:01:50 <Zakim> -davide
16:01:50 <Zakim> -markw
16:01:52 <Zakim> -jdsmith
16:01:55 <Zakim> -bevans
16:02:01 <Zakim> -ddorwin
16:02:02 <Zakim> HTML_WG()11:00AM has ended
16:02:02 <Zakim> Attendees were paulc, jdsmith, ddorwin, davide, markw, bevans, geguchi, BobLund, +1.408.536.aaaa, joesteele
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