18:50:11 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aapi
18:50:11 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/10/07-aapi-irc
18:50:13 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs member
18:50:13 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #aapi
18:50:15 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAI_PF
18:50:15 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see WAI_PFWG(AAPI)3:00PM scheduled to start in 10 minutes
18:50:16 <trackbot> Meeting: Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference
18:50:16 <trackbot> Date: 07 October 2014
18:50:51 <clown> agenda: this
18:50:58 <clown> agenda+ News: ISSUE-541:  (All) Change to wording in name/description document re: host language "value" attribute.
18:51:07 <clown> agenda+ ISSUE-542: (All) Use of fall back text attribute for CSS image content rules.
18:51:14 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-842: (Cynthia) Create a diagram to support section 1.2 A11Y vs DOM tree.
18:51:21 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-980: (David) Define mappings for managed aria related states with reference to section 5.5, item 1.
18:51:28 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-1185: (Cynthia) Look into UIA Express and UIA mappings for role=heading to check for heading paragraph style.
18:51:36 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-1311: (Joseph) Clarify that presentation role should preserve separation of nodes within tables/lists.
18:51:44 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-1322: (Jon) Make some examples for aria-hidden="false" (including a hidden live region).
18:51:51 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-1492: (David) Investigate issue 671 and propose a solution that is clear for widgets.
18:52:09 <clown> agenda+ Processing issues/actions:  https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/products/23
18:52:21 <clown> agenda+ be done.
18:52:50 <Zakim> WAI_PFWG(AAPI)3:00PM has now started
18:52:56 <Zakim> +[GVoice]
18:53:07 <clown> zakim, GVoice is Joseph_Scheuhammer
18:53:07 <Zakim> +Joseph_Scheuhammer; got it
18:53:14 <clown> zakim, I am Joseph_Scheuhammer
18:53:14 <Zakim> ok, clown, I now associate you with Joseph_Scheuhammer
18:53:51 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/07-aapi-minutes.html clown
18:57:09 <Zakim> +Joanmarie_Diggs
19:00:32 <Zakim> +Bryan_Garaventa
19:01:08 <bgaraventa1979> bgaraventa1979 has joined #aapi
19:01:46 <bgaraventa1979> zakim, I am Bryan_Garaventa
19:01:46 <Zakim> ok, bgaraventa1979, I now associate you with Bryan_Garaventa
19:02:08 <joanie> Zakim, I am Joanmarie_Diggs
19:02:08 <Zakim> ok, joanie, I now associate you with Joanmarie_Diggs
19:02:16 <richardschwerdtfeger> richardschwerdtfeger has joined #aapi
19:02:40 <Zakim> +Rich_Schwerdtfeger
19:04:39 <joanie> Scribe: Joanmarie_Diggs
19:16:11 <clown> http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria/complete#combobox
19:16:20 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
19:17:32 <cyns> cyns has joined #aapi
19:17:34 <clown> http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria/complete#implictValueForRole
19:18:13 <richardschwerdtfeger> http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria/complete#implicit_semantics
19:19:17 <joanie> Zakim, next item
19:19:17 <Zakim> agendum 1. "News: ISSUE-541:  (All) Change to wording in name/description document re: host language "value" attribute." taken up [from clown]
19:19:24 <clown> issue-541
19:19:24 <trackbot> issue-541 -- Text Alt Comp too specific to ARIA attributes (aria-valuetext and aria-valuenow) -- open
19:19:24 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/541
19:20:02 <clown> If the embedded control is a range (e.g., a spinbutton or slider), use the text value if defined (e.g. aria-valuetext), or otherwise the value of the control (e.g., aria-valuenow, or host language value attribute).
19:20:09 <joanie> JS: There is a step in the accessible name calculation (the old version) where it says something like the above
19:20:57 <joanie> JS: The last part was missing until now.
19:21:27 <joanie> RS: Is it always the value attribute?
19:21:41 <joanie> JS: I tried to word it so that it didn't actually say "value"
19:21:55 <joanie> RS: A way to do that would be to make it a glossary item.
19:22:01 <joanie> JS: Suggested definition?
19:22:14 <joanie> RS: I can come up with something.
19:22:31 <joanie> RS: Text can have a value, but it's not a range.
19:22:39 <joanie> JS: That's already covered. (Reads text.)
19:22:46 <joanie> RS: (providing text)
19:22:54 <clown> If the embedded control has role texbox, use its value.
19:23:31 <joanie> (Group discusses)
19:24:01 <joanie> RS: The thing about SVG that worries me is that they are making it closer to HTML. So much so that they have a canvas element, iframes.
19:24:26 <joanie> RS: We could say for this release that it's limited to HTML.
19:25:20 <joanie> RS: The only time I can think that you'd have a value is if you have user input.
19:25:54 <joanie> JS: I tried to use the word "control" because it is not an HTML element, but captures the fact that it takes input.
19:27:15 <joanie> (More discussion about what does and does not have a "value")
19:29:01 <richardschwerdtfeger> Value of a control is the is a property of a host languane input control that will take a range of values or text as input
19:29:16 <joanie> RS: The above is a working glossary definition.
19:30:55 <joanie> (More working / discussion to refine the language)
19:32:04 <richardschwerdtfeger> Value of a control is a property of a host languane input control that will take a range of values or text as input
19:32:05 <richardschwerdtfeger> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/CR/forms.html#the-select-element
19:33:52 <joanie> RS: Multiselect is a problem for our definition. The value only corresponds to the first one.
19:34:01 <clown> Value of a control is the is a property of a host languane input control that will take a set of values or text as input
19:34:10 <joanie> JS: I suggest you propose this as a change to the glossary on Monday.
19:34:26 <joanie> JS: I would use set of values instead of range.
19:34:46 <joanie> RS: I think we could put it in there. Do you want to add that to your proposal?
19:34:57 <joanie> JS: I guess so.
19:35:15 <clown> issue-541?
19:35:15 <trackbot> issue-541 -- Text Alt Comp too specific to ARIA attributes (aria-valuetext and aria-valuenow) -- open
19:35:15 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/541
19:35:23 <joanie> RS: Resubmit it and we can talk about it Monday.
19:35:34 <joanie> JS: We're talking about issue 541.
19:36:13 <joanie> JS: James Craig has a proposal for issue-541 and I was saying that it was already mostly done.
19:36:28 <joanie> RS: And I'm saying we also need a glossary entry.
19:37:36 <joanie> JS: There is a "value" in the glossary already.
19:37:38 <clown> "A literal that solidifies the information expressed by a http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria/complete#def_state, http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria/complete#def_property, http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria/complete#def_role, or text content."
19:37:50 <clown> "A literal that solidifies the information expressed by a state, property, role, or text content."
19:38:06 <joanie> JS: The above is the current definition.
19:38:18 <joanie> RS: I think we need to change that.
19:38:43 <joanie> JS: I think one of us should create an issue to change this.
19:38:54 <joanie> (RS creates an issue)
19:43:26 <clown> issue-541?
19:43:26 <trackbot> issue-541 -- Text Alt Comp too specific to ARIA attributes (aria-valuetext and aria-valuenow) -- open
19:43:26 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/541
19:44:30 <richardschwerdtfeger> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/680
19:45:11 <joanie> Zakim, next item
19:45:11 <Zakim> agendum 2. "ISSUE-542: (All) Use of fall back text attribute for CSS image content rules." taken up [from clown]
19:45:19 <clown> issue-542?
19:45:19 <trackbot> issue-542 -- Text Alt Comp section on CSS generated content does not allow for proper CSS content fallback -- open
19:45:19 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/542
19:45:31 <joanie> JS: This is something we discussed yesterday. Another suggestion from James about accessible name calculation.
19:45:32 <clown> <div style="content: url(icon.png), attr(data-fallback);" data-fallback="Bar">Foo</div>
19:45:39 <joanie> JS: The above is his example.
19:46:07 <joanie> JS: You can now in CSS add an attribute.
19:46:24 <joanie> JS: This provides a data fallback as your textual content.
19:46:33 <joanie> JS: So the alternate name is Bar.
19:46:56 <joanie> JS: James is suggesting that because you can do this in CSS, we need to add text that references this technique.
19:47:19 <joanie> JS: I gather that the attribute can be anything you want it to be (e.g. aria-label)
19:47:24 <joanie> RS: What does it do?
19:47:50 <Zakim> -Joseph_Scheuhammer
19:47:53 <joanie> JS: That style command says put this icon image here.
19:47:56 <clown> !
19:48:14 <Zakim> +[GVoice]
19:48:26 <clown> zakim, GVoice is Joseph_Scheuhammer
19:48:26 <Zakim> +Joseph_Scheuhammer; got it
19:48:38 <clown> zakim, I am Joseph_Scheuhammer
19:48:38 <Zakim> ok, clown, I now associate you with Joseph_Scheuhammer
19:49:03 <joanie> JS: The attribute says "use the following attribute for the text alternative" on that element
19:49:19 <clown> <div style="content: url(icon.png), attr(aria-label);" aria-label="Bar">Foo</div>
19:49:23 <joanie> JS: But I think you could also write something like the above.
19:49:44 <joanie> JS: But this isn't quite right as you have to use the before and after stuff.
19:50:00 <joanie> RS: So you can use an ARIA label instead of an alt?
19:50:13 <joanie> JS: You can't use alt because it's not an attribute of div
19:50:37 <joanie> JS: It has to be a supported attribute, as I understand it from yesterday's discussion.
19:50:53 <joanie> RS: The thing is, I just don't know how wide open this content is going to be. Can it be anything?
19:51:09 <joanie> JS: You'd have to look at the CSS spec as I don't know it that way.
19:51:29 <joanie> JS: The other thing I recall from yesterday is that only Safari implements it so far.
19:51:43 <clown> issue-542?
19:51:43 <trackbot> issue-542 -- Text Alt Comp section on CSS generated content does not allow for proper CSS content fallback -- open
19:51:43 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/542
19:51:45 <joanie> JS: Does this look familiar to you Cynthia from IE's perspective?
19:52:52 <joanie> CS: I'm not familiar with this feature.
19:53:04 <joanie> CS: I'll see if I can find more information on this.
19:54:27 <joanie> (Group members individually looking at the CSS spec)
19:56:17 <richardschwerdtfeger> http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/generate.html
19:56:34 <joanie> RS: (Reads from above spec)
19:57:08 <joanie> RS: The issue is that now CSS is injecting new forms of content.
19:57:21 <joanie> CS: If this is in the spec, then, yes, this is indeed an issue.
19:57:48 <joanie> JS: It's shipped and Safari reportedly implements it.
19:58:01 <clown> "This function returns as a string the value of attribute X for the subject of the selector. The string is not parsed by the CSS processor. If the subject of the selector does not have an attribute X, an empty string is returned. The case-sensitivity of attribute names depends on the document language."
19:58:32 <joanie> RS: So, yes, you could put an aria label in there.
19:58:42 <joanie> JS: Yes anything that is a valid attribute
19:58:51 <joanie> CS: We should get WCAG in on this.
19:59:21 <joanie> (Discussion about computed style)
20:00:19 <clown> $.css ('content');
20:00:46 <joanie> JS: $ stands for the element in question. It comes back as a string.
20:00:51 <clown> "url(icon.png), attr(aria-label)"
20:01:07 <joanie> RS: Which you now have to parse. That's ugly.
20:01:20 <joanie> CS: I don't really like CSS-generated content.
20:01:40 <joanie> CS: James is right, it's an issue. We need to account for it.
20:01:59 <joanie> JS: So as far as the name computation is concerned, I have to put something about this.
20:02:19 <joanie> RS: An entire list of attributes, and you have to be aware of them and see if any of them result in text that can be used. Right?
20:02:24 <joanie> JS: That's a very big list.
20:02:29 <joanie> RS: Exactly
20:02:59 <joanie> CS: Do we have time at TPAC with CSS? We should work with them on this.
20:03:24 <joanie> RS: I will email Janina and copy the group and suggest we should discuss this because it poses a significant challenge for testing tools.
20:04:17 <clown> <img style="content: url(icon.png), attr(src);" src="Bar">
20:05:11 <clown> <img style="content: url(icon.png), attr(src);" src="./images/foo.png">
20:05:11 <joanie> CS: I think there's also a WCAG technique here.
20:05:20 <joanie> RS: Are you in WCAG?
20:05:24 <joanie> CS: Not for a while.
20:05:44 <joanie> RS: I'll send the email.
20:05:57 <joanie> JS: Next Monday is Thanksgiving in Canada.
20:06:40 <joanie> (Discussion about holidays next week)
20:07:34 <joanie> JS: When is the discussion about name computation at TPAC?
20:07:46 <joanie> RS: I don't think we have an exact time yet.
20:09:08 <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
20:09:21 <Zakim> -Rich_Schwerdtfeger
20:09:33 <Zakim> -Bryan_Garaventa
20:11:06 <joanie> Zakim, part
20:11:06 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees were Joseph_Scheuhammer, Joanmarie_Diggs, Bryan_Garaventa, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, [Microsoft]
20:11:06 <Zakim> Zakim has left #aapi
20:11:32 <joanie> present: Cynthia_Shelly
20:11:42 <joanie> RRSAgent, make minutes
20:11:42 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/07-aapi-minutes.html joanie
20:12:07 <joanie> present: Joseph_Scheuhammer, Joanmarie_Diggs, Bryan_Garaventa,  Rich_Schwerdtfeger
20:12:15 <joanie> present: Joseph_Scheuhammer, Joanmarie_Diggs, Bryan_Garaventa,  Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Cynthia_Shelly
20:12:19 <joanie> RRSAgent, make minutes
20:12:19 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/07-aapi-minutes.html joanie
20:12:37 <joanie> RRSAgent, stop