18:45:42 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aapi
18:45:42 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/09/30-aapi-irc
18:45:44 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs member
18:45:44 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #aapi
18:45:46 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAI_PF
18:45:46 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see WAI_PFWG(AAPI)3:00PM scheduled to start in 15 minutes
18:45:47 <trackbot> Meeting: Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference
18:45:47 <trackbot> Date: 30 September 2014
18:46:03 <clown> chair:  Joseph_Scheuhammer
18:46:21 <clown> agenda: this
18:46:30 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-1104: (Cynthia) UIA mapping for aria-describedby when referenced accessible is non-existant (see: \http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/implementation/aria-implementation.html#ariaDescribedBy).
18:46:36 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-1372: (Cynthia) Create a test case, if there is none, to test the rowgroup role.
18:46:42 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-1373: (Cynthia) Create a test case for when aria-posinset and aria-setsize are provided explicitly on some but not all elements.
18:46:54 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-1396: (Cynthia) MSAA+UIAExpress mapping of grid role.
18:47:03 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-1444: (Joanie) Investigate the ideal atk/at-spi2 mapping for role presentation in tables and lists. (Done?)
18:47:10 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-1445: (Cynthia) Investigate the ideal uai mapping for role presentation in tables and lists
18:47:18 <clown> agenda+ (All): Thoughts on list of actions/issues to work on for next heart-beat draft.
18:47:24 <clown> agenda+ Processing issues/actions:https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/products/23
18:47:30 <clown> agenda+ be done.
18:48:03 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/09/30-aapi-minutes.html clown
18:50:41 <richardschwerdtfeger> richardschwerdtfeger has joined #aapi
18:52:54 <Zakim> WAI_PFWG(AAPI)3:00PM has now started
18:53:01 <Zakim> +[GVoice]
18:53:08 <clown> zakim, GVoice is Joseph_Scheuhammer
18:53:08 <Zakim> +Joseph_Scheuhammer; got it
18:53:19 <clown> zakim, I am Joseph_Scheuhammer
18:53:19 <Zakim> ok, clown, I now associate you with Joseph_Scheuhammer
18:54:56 <Zakim> +Joanmarie_Diggs
18:56:53 <joanie> Zakim, I am Joanmarie_Diggs
18:56:53 <Zakim> ok, joanie, I now associate you with Joanmarie_Diggs
18:57:29 <Zakim> +Rich_Schwerdtfeger
19:02:48 <Zakim> + +1.650.773.aaaa
19:03:52 <joanie> Scribenick: joanie
19:05:18 <joanie> Zakim, aaaa is Bryan_Garaventa
19:05:18 <Zakim> +Bryan_Garaventa; got it
19:06:10 <bgaraventa1979> bgaraventa1979 has joined #aapi
19:06:30 <Zakim> -Joseph_Scheuhammer
19:06:40 <bgaraventa1979> zakim, aaaa is Bryan_Garaventa
19:06:40 <Zakim> sorry, bgaraventa1979, I do not recognize a party named 'aaaa'
19:07:01 <bgaraventa1979> zakim, I am Bryan_Garaventa
19:07:01 <Zakim> ok, bgaraventa1979, I now associate you with Bryan_Garaventa
19:07:10 <Zakim> +[GVoice]
19:07:16 <clown> zakim, GVoice is Joseph_Scheuhammer
19:07:16 <Zakim> +Joseph_Scheuhammer; got it
19:07:26 <clown> zakim, I am Joseph_Scheuhammer
19:07:26 <Zakim> ok, clown, I now associate you with Joseph_Scheuhammer
19:08:56 <joanie> Zakim, take up item 5
19:08:56 <Zakim> agendum 5. "ACTION-1444: (Joanie) Investigate the ideal atk/at-spi2 mapping for role presentation in tables and lists. (Done?)" taken up [from clown]
19:09:02 <clown> action-1444?
19:09:02 <trackbot> action-1444 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Investigate the ideal atk/at-spi2 mapping for role presentation in tables and lists. -- due 2014-08-26 -- OPEN
19:09:02 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1444
19:09:34 <joanie> JS: You made a note about this in June. Why is this still open?
19:09:40 <joanie> JD: I'm not sure.
19:10:08 <joanie> JS: I have an action to write text about this. I'm waiting for all these (platform) action items to be complete.
19:10:57 <clown> scribenick:  clown
19:11:16 <clown> RS:  you want all the elements mapped as divs?
19:11:37 <clown> JD:  Yes, there is a discussion with Alex, and yes, div is perfect.
19:11:44 <clown> RS:  Just for ATK/AT-SPI?
19:12:05 <clown> JD:  Well, maybe it can be extdended to other APIs.
19:12:21 <clown> RS:  If we switch to a div, it will break things all over the place.
19:12:52 <clown> RS:  The could be very destructive.  It could break an awful lot of stuff.
19:13:01 <clown> JD:  It  doesn't break things as role text?
19:13:12 <clown> RS: It seems to work now.
19:13:46 <clown> JD:  That's valid, but this might be a case where ATK is different from IA2.
19:13:54 <clown> JD:  But, it's not role text.
19:14:26 <clown> RS:  That's fine.  But, I don't think there is an issue with role text on IA2.
19:14:30 <joanie> Scribenick: joanie
19:15:00 <joanie> JS: This came about because at one point Firefox changed how it deals with presentational tables.
19:15:11 <joanie> JS: It smushed it into a single text blob.
19:15:40 <joanie> RS: We really need to look at this. If it was div before, without the smushing, ok. But I don't want to break anything.
19:15:51 <joanie> RS: I agree that merging the text all together is not a good thing.
19:16:03 <joanie> JS: The question remains: What is the role of the individual cells?
19:16:08 <clown> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=945435
19:17:55 <clown> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=945435#c9
19:18:16 <joanie> JS: According to the above comment, when they fixed it for IA2, they used ROLE_TEXTFRAME.
19:18:25 <joanie> JS: Is that the same as ROLE_TEXT?
19:18:29 <joanie> RS: I'm not sure.
19:18:47 <joanie> JS: (Quotes comment from the bug)
19:19:01 <clown> IA2_ROLE_TEXTFRAME
19:19:25 <joanie> RS: (Looks up roles)
19:20:34 <clown> ATK_ROLE_TEXT
19:21:13 <clown> scribenick:  clown
19:21:52 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
19:22:22 <cyns> cyns has joined #aapi
19:24:08 <clown> RS:  <discussion of using div vs. text frame>
19:27:49 <clown> JD:  Ignoring this case, what are other examples of IA2_TEXT_FRAME?
19:28:08 <clown> JD:  I'm  trying to get a better feel for what a text frame is.
19:28:50 <clown> RS:  The only place I know it's used is tables with role presentation.
19:29:02 <clown> RS:  Exposed by FF.
19:30:54 <clown> JD:  Can we solve this by saying, if this isn't something we don't want to expose in the first place, don't do it now.
19:31:18 <clown> RS:  Another question:  can we do something different for Linux than we do for Windows.
19:31:52 <clown> RS: What is a div on linux?
19:31:56 <clown> JD:  It's ROLE_SECTION
19:32:18 <clown> RS: Do they have a text frame for the table itself.
19:32:45 <clown> RS:  The TDs become text frames.
19:32:54 <clown> RS:  Do the TRs go away?
19:33:01 <clown> AB:  I think they do.
19:33:19 <clown> RS:  Is that something we could do for the linux version?
19:33:56 <clown> RS:  So, the table and TRs go away, but the TDs are mapped to section?
19:34:04 <clown> JD:  That's what I asked for in the bug.
19:35:23 <clown> RS:  What happens to a caption?
19:35:35 <clown> JS:  I think it goes away on a presentation table.
19:36:04 <clown> CS:  We advise authors against that type of error.
19:38:12 <joanie> Scribenick: Joanie
19:39:09 <clown> s/AB: /BL:/
19:39:31 <joanie> Zakim, take up item 1
19:39:31 <Zakim> agendum 1. "ACTION-1104: (Cynthia) UIA mapping for aria-describedby when referenced accessible is non-existant (see:
19:39:33 <Zakim> ... \http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/implementation/aria-implementation.html#ariaDescribedBy)." taken up [from clown]
19:39:38 <clown> action-1104?
19:39:38 <trackbot> action-1104 -- Cynthia Shelly to Define what the accessibility API mapping is for UIA on aria-describedby in section 5.5.1 table when the element does not exist in the accessibility tree such as when css: display:none applies -- due 2014-08-22 -- OPEN
19:39:39 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1104
19:39:59 <joanie> JS: Last week we went through David's actions.
19:40:09 <joanie> JS: We'd like to do that with yours today.
19:40:18 <joanie> JS: (reads first issue)
19:40:55 <joanie> CS: This is an open issue in UIA. My plan is to open an issue in our internal system, assign it to myself, and get something done.
19:41:16 <joanie> CS: An answer of what should happen, I can probably get in a few weeks.
19:41:32 <joanie> JS: October 21st then.
19:41:37 <joanie> Zakim, next item
19:41:37 <Zakim> agendum 2. "ACTION-1372: (Cynthia) Create a test case, if there is none, to test the rowgroup role." taken up [from clown]
19:41:43 <clown> action-1372?
19:41:43 <trackbot> action-1372 -- Cynthia Shelly to Create a test case, if there is none, to test the rowgroup role -- due 2014-08-22 -- OPEN
19:41:43 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1372
19:42:00 <clown> issue-635?
19:42:00 <trackbot> issue-635 -- Determine if uaig mappings for rowgroup are correct -- open
19:42:00 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/635
19:42:12 <joanie> JS: This is related to issue 635.
19:43:00 <joanie> CS: I haven't done this yet, how about after TPAC? November 15th.
19:43:02 <joanie> Zakim, next item
19:43:02 <Zakim> agendum 3. "ACTION-1373: (Cynthia) Create a test case for when aria-posinset and aria-setsize are provided explicitly on some but not all elements." taken up [from clown]
19:43:10 <clown> action-1373?
19:43:10 <trackbot> action-1373 -- Cynthia Shelly to Create a test case for when aria-posinset and aria-setsize are provided explicitly on some but not all elements. -- due 2014-08-22 -- OPEN
19:43:10 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1373
19:43:13 <joanie> JS: Another test case one.
19:43:45 <joanie> CS: This one I might be able to do earlier as it is related to something I'm actively working on. Three weeks.
19:43:49 <joanie> Zakim, next item
19:43:49 <Zakim> agendum 3 was just opened, joanie
19:43:59 <joanie> Zakim, take up item 4
19:43:59 <Zakim> agendum 4. "ACTION-1396: (Cynthia) MSAA+UIAExpress mapping of grid role." taken up [from clown]
19:44:08 <clown> action-1396
19:44:08 <trackbot> action-1396 -- Cynthia Shelly to Modify uaig to convey grid role in accessibility mappings, beyond table. (atk/atspi/ ia2 xml-role=grid, macosx: roledescription: grid, msaa/uiaexpress localizedcontroltype="grid"?) -- due 2014-08-26 -- OPEN
19:44:09 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1396
19:44:19 <joanie> CS: Mid november.
19:44:31 <joanie> JS: I have some suggestions in the notes.
19:44:45 <joanie> CS: Good, that will help.
19:44:52 <joanie> Zakim, take up item 5
19:44:52 <Zakim> agendum 5. "ACTION-1444: (Joanie) Investigate the ideal atk/at-spi2 mapping for role presentation in tables and lists. (Done?)" taken up [from clown]
19:45:02 <joanie> JS: That's already discussed.
19:45:10 <joanie> CS: There's an equivalent one for UIA.
19:45:14 <joanie> Zakim, take up item 6
19:45:14 <Zakim> agendum 6. "ACTION-1445: (Cynthia) Investigate the ideal uai mapping for role presentation in tables and lists" taken up [from clown]
19:45:20 <clown> action-1445?
19:45:20 <trackbot> action-1445 -- Cynthia Shelly to Investigate the ideal uai mapping for role presentation in tables and lists. -- due 2014-08-22 -- OPEN
19:45:20 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1445
19:45:28 <joanie> CS: What did you decide for ATK?
19:45:35 <joanie> JS: Map them as if they are divs.
19:45:55 <joanie> CS: I think that's going to be the best for UIA.
19:46:08 <joanie> JS: Rich concerns about this?
19:46:20 <joanie> RS: It's fine as long as we have AT support.
19:46:27 <joanie> CS: I think we ought to be consistent.
19:46:47 <joanie> CS: Right now, if you have a div, it's usually ignored I think.
19:46:57 <joanie> CS: (by the ATs)
19:47:10 <joanie> RS: They do and they don't.
19:47:30 <joanie> RS: What's important is that when you mark something as presentational, it doesn't merge the elements together.
19:47:43 <joanie> RS: You want to preserve the element separation.
19:48:07 <joanie> CS: Right now, I believe it does merge text.
19:48:14 <joanie> CS: I don't think that's good behavior.
19:48:31 <joanie> CS: I'm proposing an accessible on object for every node.
19:48:43 <joanie> CS: (mentions group)
19:48:52 <joanie> RS: I wouldn't give it a role of group.
19:49:00 <joanie> CS: Group is what we map div to.
19:49:17 <joanie> JS: To be clear, the group role is a UIA group; not an ARIA group.
19:50:13 <joanie> CS: In IE an ARIA role group also maps to role group.
19:50:28 <joanie> CS: It may be that ARIA role group should be mapped to something different.
19:50:36 <joanie> RS: I think it's important to separate these out.
19:50:54 <joanie> CS: It seems unlikely that we would change the mapping for div as those are all over the place.
19:51:13 <joanie> CS: Remapping ARIA role group would be more sane.
19:51:21 <joanie> RS: I asked James about this.
19:51:23 <clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/implementation/aria-implementation.html#role-map-rowgroup
19:51:41 <joanie> RS: He said those aren't real groups.
19:51:48 <joanie> RS: We need to resolve these pieces
19:52:27 <clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/spec/aria.html#group
19:52:28 <joanie> CS: Agreed. It sounds like the ARIA group role needs to map to something different.
19:52:38 <joanie> RS: Agreed.
19:53:22 <joanie> RS: The issue is what is the ideal mapping for ARIA role group so that it doesn't conflict with the generic group role which is used on many platform a11y APIs.
19:53:33 <clown> issue:  What is the ideal mapping for the ARIA group role, such that it does not semantically conflict with the generic group role on AAPIs, e.g,, AXAPI and UIA.
19:53:33 <trackbot> Created ISSUE-678 - What is the ideal mapping for the aria group role, such that it does not semantically conflict with the generic group role on aapis, e.g,, axapi and uia..  Please complete additional details at <https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/678/edit>.
19:54:22 <clown> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/678
19:55:39 <joanie> JS: Are there any issues we want to add?
19:55:55 <joanie> RS: We may want to discuss this during the ARIA call.
19:56:09 <joanie> RS: Give me an action to talk about it.
19:56:30 <clown> ACTION:  Rich to discuss issue-678 at the Mon ARIA teleconference.
19:56:31 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1515 - Discuss issue-678 at the mon aria teleconference. [on Richard Schwerdtfeger - due 2014-10-07].
19:56:39 <clown> action-1515
19:56:39 <trackbot> action-1515 -- Richard Schwerdtfeger to Discuss issue-678 at the mon aria teleconference. -- due 2014-10-07 -- OPEN
19:56:39 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1515
19:58:27 <joanie> TOPIC: Reminder, heartbeat draft
19:58:39 <joanie> JS: Please identify what you want to include.
19:58:47 <joanie> RS: Will this include the name and description document?
19:58:49 <joanie> JS: Yes.
19:59:02 <joanie> RS: What I personally would like to see is the interlock between the two of them.
19:59:08 <joanie> RS: I also need this for the SVG spec.
19:59:18 <joanie> RS: TPAC is less than a month away.
19:59:39 <joanie> JS: And really, it's more like two weeks so that Michael can do the needed work.
20:00:05 <joanie> CS: That seems like a good topic. When do we need to have these done? The 14th.
20:00:23 <joanie> s/The 14th./The 14th?/
20:00:36 <joanie> JS: I'll bring it up at tomorrow's Editor's meeting.
20:02:06 <Zakim> -Rich_Schwerdtfeger
20:02:08 <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
20:02:25 <Zakim> -Bryan_Garaventa
20:05:37 <joanie> (Group discussion about the possible impact of the github repository reorg on meeting our heartbeat goals. Conclusion: We'll discuss this as well at tomorrow's Editors' meeting.)
20:06:57 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/09/30-aapi-minutes.html clown
20:09:16 <Zakim> -Joanmarie_Diggs
20:09:17 <Zakim> -Joseph_Scheuhammer
20:09:17 <Zakim> WAI_PFWG(AAPI)3:00PM has ended
20:09:17 <Zakim> Attendees were Joseph_Scheuhammer, Joanmarie_Diggs, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, +1.650.773.aaaa, Bryan_Garaventa, [Microsoft]
20:09:34 <joanie> Zakim, part
20:09:34 <Zakim> Zakim has left #aapi
20:09:49 <joanie> regrets: David_Bolter
20:10:36 <joanie> present: -aaaa
20:10:49 <joanie> RRSAgent, make minutes
20:10:49 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/09/30-aapi-minutes.html joanie
20:11:28 <joanie> present:  Joseph_Scheuhammer, Joanmarie_Diggs, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Bryan_Garaventa, Cynthia_Shelly
20:11:42 <joanie> regrets: David_Bolter
20:11:46 <joanie> RRSAgent, make minutes
20:11:46 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/09/30-aapi-minutes.html joanie
20:12:12 <joanie> RRSAgent, stop