<trackbot> Date: 26 September 2014
<kevin> Scribe: Kevin
<shadi> https://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/EOWG_Meetings#26_September_2014_teleconference
12 Sept minutes: http://www.w3.org/2014/09/12-eo-minutes#item03
Option from Jon: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-eo/2014JulSep/0076.html
<shadi> https://w3c.github.io/wai-tutorials/tables/
Shadi: Want to aim to get a resolution to this today
Eric: Jon's main comment was that images were not properly described by the alternative text
Jon: The alttext that was
presented seemed redundant but also more contextual rather than
describing the image.
... I wanted to convery that the images had value on their own
and could benefit from descriptive alternative text.
<yatil> http://www.w3.org/WAI/tutorials/tables/ <-- We’re talking about this version, btw.
<yatil> (Github one has changed.)
Shadi: Do the icons provide information that is different from that in the main text?
Jon: I think that they are useful and alternative text could be useful to descibe that these are examples of what these table types might look.
<shadi> https://w3c.github.io/wai-tutorials/tables/
Shadi: If we focus on the version in GitHub for the moment.
<Zakim> Andrew, you wanted to suggest repetitive
Shadi: This has empty alternative text with what was there integrated into the main text.
Andrew: I like the new approach;
everyone now gets the information.
... The icon now provides a visual summary of the
information.
... The issue I have with the old approach and any alternative
text is that we are introducing redundancy.
Jon: I think that some people
with CI see the icon without the alternative text might
consider these to be definitive examples.
... For example, 'all basic tables have a header at the
top'.
... WIthout any indication that they are examples may result in
them being misleading or misunderstood.
... The main thing is to say that they are examples.
<Andrew> eg - alt="an example" ??
AnnaBelle: Is the main suggestion to add the word 'Example'?
Jon: Using the word 'example' is
important but it is just one aspect of the icon's alternative
text
... I will sometimes use JAWS and may use developer tools to
access things like alternative text to help in my
understanding
<Andrew> eg - alt="illustration of one type of basic table " ?? - but starting to be repetitive for full-time screen reader users
Andrew: What if they were different animals with links to pages describing the different animals?
Jon: It would still be helpful to have the alternative text saying 'An example of a dog... or cat...'
Andrew: This is unfortunately repetative for screen reader users
Jon: Trouble is that these aren't
definitive instances of that type of animal.
... In the case of tables these are different types of tables
that have slight difference
... but they are each just examples of that type of table
Shadi: In this case the aim is for these to be illustrative
<Zakim> Andrew, you wanted to discuss images
<Andrew> so, we have a trade off
<Andrew> happy to take Jon's info on notice for future consideration
<AnnaBelle> +1
<Andrew> +1
<yatil> +1
Shadi: So we have a trade off between the repetition that would be caused for screen reader users who don't rely on any visual information, and a user who potentially benefits from the additional information.
Resolution: Tentative - Keep the empty alternative text to avoid redundancy people who are only using screen readers and ensure that the infromation provided by the graphic is in the main text.
https://w3c.github.io/wai-tutorials/forms/
<yatil> https://github.com/w3c/wai-tutorials/issues?q=is%3Aopen+is%3Aissue+label%3A%22EOWG+Review%22
Shadi: Also requested comments from WCAG WG
<yatil> https://github.com/w3c/wai-tutorials/issues/140
Eric: I have resolved some of
issues recieved. There are a few that are worth some
discussion.
... I didn't want to use ARIA where there were more native
approaches e.g. label element instead of labeled-by
... There is a warning of support within the tutorials
... Does the group think that we have ARIA covered in a good
way or should we do more?
<Andrew> +1 to illustrating native approaches over aria approaches
Shadi: In other tutorials we have
put in ARIA examples as possibilities but pointed out that it
may not be supported
... It is good to use the native approaches but would be good
to highlight other approaches but indicate that there are
drawbacks
... and describe the drawbacks
AnnaBelle: Are these now in a final sprint before go-live?
Shadi: Yes and no, these are fairly polished first drafts but they have not gone through a full review process
AnnaBelle: I wonldn't want needing more ARIA examples to hold this back as they are really useful
<Zakim> Andrew, you wanted to mention ratings and to also mention order of illustration
Andrew: Can we invite people to
rank the approaches?
... Could we mention that the order indicates some form of
preferential approach?
Eric: This is implicit within the
structure at the moment.
... We have also tried to be concise with techniques that might
not be considered optimal
Proposal: Where there is an easy opportunity to quickly introduce ARIA examples, then we add them in with a clear indication of what the drawbacks are
<yatil> +1
<Andrew> +1
AnnaBelle: +1
<yatil> https://github.com/w3c/wai-tutorials/issues/125
Eric: Do we need browser tables?
Andrew: The Accessibility Support
Database will fill this gap in the near future and could be
linked to
... Response would then be "We have further work in progress
that would help people identify what is supported"
Shadi: Listing the browsers
wouldn't really be something that we could manage on an ongoing
basis.
... A change in the footer to highlight the date of writing
might be appropriate.
Andrew: Steve Faulkner may have a some pages that we could add as a resource link?
http://www.html5accessibility.com/
Shadi: There are others that are preparing pages like this so it may be difficult to only link to one rather than others.
<yatil> https://github.com/w3c/wai-tutorials/issues/138
Resolution: Make a change to the wording to highlight the date and respond to the commenter that we hope to provide this resource in the near future.
<yatil> http://www.w3.org/WAI/tutorials/forms/custom-controls/
<yatil> http://w3c.github.io/wai-tutorials/forms/custom-controls/
<yatil> scribe: EricE
<yatil> scribeNick: yatil
Shadi: The message of “if you use custom controls, base it on native elements” seems not to be conveyed properly.
… Maybe editorial changes can help.
AnnaBelle: I like to see the code.
<Zakim> Andrew, you wanted to suggest a list
… Probably add a sentence “if you don’t find a form element to style, here is how to approach it”.
Shadi: Probably it dives to fast into the examples.
<AnnaBelle> Agreed. Suggest adding this sentence (or something like it) right after first sentence.
Andrew: That’s my concern as well, we could probably expand the paragraph a bit. What can be done with form elements instead of complicated custom scripts. Short list of what you can try to do.
Shadi: We’ll take another look at the introduction paragraph.
<AnnaBelle> Love the carousels tutorial!
Shadi: Is ready for input, has a different tone. Images, tables and forms are more foundational, carousel is more a widget. We describe accessibility aspects.
… Full code is linked.
… We’d be really happy about your input.
… We haven’t received major comments yet.
<Andrew> https://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/Tutorials/Feedback/Carousels
AnnaBelle: How should we prioritize work?
Shadi: The work for this week is orderd by importance and newness.
Andrew: We might want to discuss on the structure page the “color contrast ratio” term.
Shadi: We just take a look and use the outcome of the EasyChecks discussion.
Shadi & Kevin: We haven’t really received comments this week.
Shadi: We really like your feedback, it is really important to look at it now. If we get comments it’s back on the agenda next week. Comments now?
AnnaBelle: Will have a look.
<shadi> http://w3c.github.io/wcag-em-report-tool/dist/#/
Shadi: A lot of work by Wilco. Crossed 160 issues yesterday. He’s plowing through them.
… But let’s take a look at the design changes.
<Andrew> +1 to design changes
… First: A background color was added, white input fields.
… Field get also highlighted when focused.
<AnnaBelle> +1
Eric: Contrast of the in-active step by step items.
Shadi: We could change the background color, but we have to take a look at the text contrasts.
<Andrew> maybe possible to add a higher contrast for the leading edge of the 'arrows'
Shadi: Step 4 – We had a button on the right for show individual web pages. This button is now closer to the results on the bottom.
… Also message “No pages selected under Sample to Evaluate.” if there are no pages in the sample on the left page. Should make the relationship between the two regions more clear.
<kevin> +1 to change in button position and hint text
… Reactions?
Andrew: On the page you can fold it by principle, why is everything open by default. Makes a looooooong page!
Shadi: My assumption is that you
want to fill them all. The usability testing had also no signs
that this is a problem.
... We probably need a page summary to jump around the page.
Although the page is already very complex.
Andrew: That would be another sidebar.
Wilco: Navigating this page is really an issue.
Eric: If there is no sample, a hint to the select sample page could be good.
Shadi: It is only empty if you jump directly there.
Wilco: We can change the text.
Shadi: Is the show results clear enough as a button?
(silence)
<AnnaBelle> +1 to way Previous / Next currently done
Shadi: Previous and next buttons. We added a clue that there is something on the right side of the page. Having a bar that contains both buttons didn’t work out designwise.
<Andrew> still prefer the P/N buttons grouped
… Now there is a horizontal rule before the buttons.
Jon: Have the buttons inversed colors? I like it. The darker next button is like highlighted, makes more sense for me.
… If the viewport is very small, I’d like the buttons to be side by side.
Wilco: That only happens if the two don’t fit next to another.
Jon: Could the previous button be underneath the left side of the main content column, it is now beneath the empty column on the left.
… I think it looks much better when it is in the one column responsive mode.
<Andrew> prefer P button at the left where it is - more balanced (if we're not grouping the P/N buttons)
Wilco: That would mean that it would be different than the other screens.
Shadi: We’re looking on the
possibility to collapse the left column anyway.
... Other input on the design?
Wilco: Potential branding?
Shadi: We need to discuss that
with Shawn.
... Should the menu end after “Key resources”? Should the logos
be on the normal page background?
Wilco: I’d need to change some bootstrap component to make it happen.
Shadi: We’re heavily working on the tool, so some comments may follow in the next weeks.
Wilco: If someone has thougts on spacing, input is welcome.
Shadi: The yellow boxes on the select sample pages has more spacing on the bottom.
… We’re currently doing a lot of fine-tuning at the moment.
Jon: On select sample, Structured page 1 and Random page 1 are filled out. If I change the text, when you reload it’s gone.
Wilco: Seems we have discovered a bug there.
Shadi: We will try to finalize the tool and bring it back in the next two weeks. Hope it gets extended and contributions.
(Wilco leaves.)
Shadi: A lot of work going on there. Just take a quick look.
Kevin: I came to the conclusion that this document may be encountered by a lot of people new to accessibility. The basics section is work in progress. The rest of the section is good for review.
Shadi: The set of three documents Kevin is working on are very much interrelated. By next tuesday they should be ready for detailed reviews. Approval will be all three together.
<Andrew> great work team :)
… All listed in work this week. Also there is another tutorial on navigation coming next week. Hope we can get the forms tutorial off our list soon. Thank you all for your hard work on this.
… Fill out your availability survey!