12:58:32 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #svg
12:58:32 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/09/25-svg-irc
12:58:34 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
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12:58:36 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be GA_SVGWG
12:58:36 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see GA_SVGWG()9:00AM scheduled to start in 2 minutes
12:58:37 <trackbot> Meeting: SVG Working Group Teleconference
12:58:37 <trackbot> Date: 25 September 2014
12:59:27 <Zakim> GA_SVGWG()9:00AM has now started
12:59:34 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
12:59:37 <ed> Zakim, [IP is me
12:59:37 <Zakim> +ed; got it
12:59:46 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
13:00:06 <birtles> Zakim, [ is me
13:00:06 <Zakim> +birtles; got it
13:00:15 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
13:00:17 <heycam> Zakim, [ is me
13:00:17 <Zakim> +heycam; got it
13:00:52 <heycam> Agenda: https://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/Agenda
13:00:54 <ChrisL> ChrisL has joined #svg
13:00:56 <Zakim> +krit
13:00:59 <heycam> Chair: Cameron
13:01:01 <Zakim> +??P8
13:01:07 <heycam> Regrets: Rik, Thomas, Cyril
13:01:13 <stakagi> zakim, ??P8 is me
13:01:14 <Zakim> +stakagi; got it
13:01:15 <heycam> Zakim, who is on the call?
13:01:15 <Zakim> +Tav
13:01:15 <Zakim> On the phone I see ed, birtles, heycam, krit, stakagi, Tav
13:01:43 <Zakim> +??P5
13:02:07 <Zakim> +ChrisL
13:02:35 <nikos_> Zakim, ??P5 is me
13:02:35 <Zakim> +nikos_; got it
13:02:35 <ChrisL> zakim, ??P5 is nikos
13:02:36 <Zakim> I already had ??P5 as nikos_, ChrisL
13:03:11 <birtles> scribenick: birtles
13:03:15 <birtles> scribe: birtles
13:03:28 <birtles> topic: Filters (implementation status, testsuite, next steps)
13:03:54 <birtles> ChrisL: filters is obviously a widely-deployed technology in all the browsers and implementations
13:04:06 <birtles> ... so I expected the filters spec for CSS would be at a similar level of maturity
13:04:18 <birtles> ... I was looking at the testsuite and it only has 30 something tests
13:04:31 <birtles> ... presumably because they have to be reftests and have to be a certain style
13:04:36 <birtles> ... so it's not many tests
13:04:52 <birtles> ... and when I ran through them in different browsers there were so many failures
13:04:57 <birtles> ... it seemed like all failed in IE
13:05:02 <birtles> ... I was surprised to see that
13:05:11 <birtles> ... I wondered what's happenning, are the tests wrong? what's up?
13:05:21 <birtles> krit: many reference tests for filter effects test filters in HTML
13:05:28 <birtles> ... and IE doesn't support filters in HTML
13:05:35 <birtles> ... also similar for WebKit
13:05:51 <birtles> ... and we added some new filter functions that are currently only supported in WebKit and Blink and soon in Firefox
13:06:00 <heycam> http://status.modern.ie/filters "Under consideration" for IE
13:06:00 <birtles> ... you're right we don't have a lot of tests yet
13:06:14 <birtles> ... my colleague has been working on that as part of implementing in Firefox
13:06:21 <birtles> ... so hopefully those tests can be imported
13:06:33 <birtles> ... since they should be in the right format
13:06:42 <birtles> ChrisL: is there a repository for that?
13:06:48 <birtles> krit: it's in the Gecko repository
13:06:52 <birtles> ... I can ask him to send the link
13:07:01 <birtles> ChrisL: I know Opera released a lot of tests
13:07:07 <birtles> ... I wonder if any of those cover filters
13:07:19 <birtles> ed: there might be some filter tests for I don't think there would be any for CSS filters
13:07:29 <birtles> ChrisL: I remember that Presto did filters in HTML right?
13:07:34 <birtles> ed: no, only internal experiments
13:07:54 <birtles> ChrisL: well, that explains that
13:08:04 <birtles> ... Dirk you said there was something being working on?
13:08:13 <birtles> ... is this something we expect the browsers to do?
13:08:30 <birtles> krit: there's active development in Blink but not so much in WebKit right now (probably change in the next few months)
13:08:42 <birtles> ... we want to have the same feature set
13:08:51 <birtles> ... but we are missing from the specification the order of the regions
13:08:59 <birtles> ... I have no status report from Microsoft
13:09:03 <birtles> ... it is being worked on in Blink
13:09:11 <birtles> ... currently stagnating in WebKit
13:09:15 <birtles> ... hopefully enabled soon in Firefox
13:09:20 <Zakim> -heycam
13:09:23 <birtles> ... already available in the Nightly versions
13:09:43 <birtles> ChrisL: that's better than I feared but still
13:09:51 <birtles> Tav: does the Firefox implementation handle shorthands?
13:09:53 <birtles> krit: yes
13:09:55 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
13:09:57 <birtles> Tav: how about webkit?
13:09:58 <heycam> Zakim, [ is me
13:09:58 <Zakim> +heycam; got it
13:10:02 <birtles> krit: just for HTML
13:10:10 <birtles> ed: does the Firefox support shorthands for SVG too?
13:10:11 <birtles> krit: yes
13:10:19 <birtles> heycam: is that working now?
13:10:25 <birtles> krit: yes, it works
13:10:48 <birtles> ChrisL: I was only testing Firefox beta so that would explain some test failures
13:10:56 <birtles> ... I will do another run-through with nightly
13:10:57 <heycam> layout.css.filters.enabled
13:11:01 <birtles> krit: there might be a flag
13:11:07 <heycam> that is not enabled by default currently
13:11:13 <birtles> ChrisL: do I have to enable any features on Chrome canary?
13:11:24 <birtles> krit: it's enabled by default in Chrome canary but kind of broken
13:11:27 <birtles> ... same for webkit
13:11:45 <heycam> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=869828 -- the meta bug for CSS Filters in Firefox
13:11:47 <birtles> ChrisL: is there any specific bugs I should track?
13:12:20 <birtles> ... should I report individual test failures on that bug? or a new bug?
13:12:31 <birtles> heycam: you can file a new bug and make it block this (the above) bug
13:13:11 <birtles> ChrisL: the other question is, how easy is it going to be to make tests for some of these filter functions?
13:13:19 <birtles> ... like the turbulence filter
13:13:27 <birtles> ... especially if we're trying to make it produce a green square
13:13:34 <birtles> ... maybe just a PNG image comparison
13:13:40 <birtles> krit: yes, that's difficult
13:13:45 <ed> for blink: http://crbug.com/109224 (tagging bugreports with "Cr-Blink-CSS-Filters" is probably good, or ping me and I'll set that tag on the bugs)
13:13:52 <birtles> ... I think Firefox has reference tests, I'm not sure how they do that
13:14:01 <birtles> heycam: I'm not sure we have reference tests for turbulence
13:14:19 <birtles> ... but the firefox reftest system does allow you to specify tolerance to account for anti-aliasing differences etc.
13:14:25 <birtles> ... but that might not be enough
13:14:38 <birtles> ChrisL: so it seems like there are a few outstanding spec issues
13:14:44 <birtles> ... might it go back to LC?
13:14:49 <birtles> krit: it's currently WD
13:14:52 <birtles> ChrisL: yes, you're right
13:15:02 <Zakim> -heycam
13:15:10 <birtles> ... I just put out a new timeline for a our charter
13:15:21 <birtles> ... which is how I discovered that filters was less advanced than I thought it would be
13:15:51 <birtles> ... Dirk, you said there was an issue about the order of filter regions
13:15:59 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
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13:16:02 <birtles> krit: currently we have a hard clipping region that is 10% around the object
13:16:03 <heycam> Zakim, [ is me
13:16:03 <Zakim> +heycam; got it
13:16:16 <birtles> ... the proposal was to get rid of that and replace it with auto-computation of the bounds of the filter
13:16:22 <birtles> ... and I'm working on that auto-computation
13:16:33 <birtles> heycam: was there still and outstanding issue about the filter resolution
13:16:46 <birtles> krit: we removed filterRes but we still have the kernel units one
13:16:53 <birtles> ... but kernelUnitLength is needed
13:17:09 <birtles> ... it makes other parameters resolution-independent but they don't look good
13:17:23 <birtles> ... so there's still an issue but I don't think we can fix it with the current primitives we have
13:17:33 <birtles> heycam: is it an issue of how the filters are defined?
13:17:42 <birtles> ... working on physical pixels rather than logical pixels?
13:17:49 <birtles> krit: right, they work on physical pixels
13:18:08 <birtles> ... and if you make them work on logical pixels then you'd end up with pixelation
13:18:23 <birtles> heycam: so is the spec going to stay as it is?
13:18:34 <birtles> ... were you planning on making any more changes to this part of the spec?
13:18:35 <birtles> krit: no
13:19:00 <birtles> ... the primitives that are affected by that are feConvolveMatrix and fePointLight or one of the lighting filters
13:19:18 <birtles> ed: diffuse lighting I think
13:19:24 <birtles> krit: oh yes, that's right
13:19:34 <ed> specularlighting too
13:19:38 <birtles> heycam: do you need any help/planning with regards to the test suite
13:19:45 <birtles> krit: help is always welcome
13:19:51 <birtles> heycam: do you need it?
13:19:58 <birtles> krit: the spec definitely needs tests
13:20:12 <birtles> ... occasionally I try to write tests but the specification is still much larger than the number of tests we have
13:20:18 <birtles> ... so if someone is willing, yes please
13:20:38 <birtles> ChrisL: I'm willing to do it but I'm trying to work out to make them into suitable reftests
13:20:55 <birtles> krit: it might be good to start by looking at Firefox's reftests
13:21:02 <birtles> ... can Firefox use pixel tests?
13:21:15 <birtles> heycam: you can always do that by putting a raster in the reference
13:21:35 <birtles> krit: in WebKit and Blink we definitely use pixel tests because it's easier but it's not cross-browser
13:22:05 <heycam> https://github.com/mozilla/gecko-dev/tree/master/layout/reftests/svg/filters
13:22:38 <birtles> heycam: some filters are easier to test as reftests than others
13:22:54 <birtles> ... e.g. the color transform tests just do it on a solid color fill
13:23:12 <birtles> krit: but even that could differ on other implementations, by on RGB value
13:23:32 <birtles> heycam: so you can't specify pixel tolerances for the web-platform-tests setup?
13:23:46 <birtles> krit: you can exploit that pixels have to be clamped to within [0..255]
13:24:06 <birtles> ... and produce a test that puts you in that range
13:24:31 <birtles> ChrisL: I can see the advantage of automated tests but it makes writing the tests hard
13:24:40 <birtles> ... and boring
13:24:48 <birtles> Tav: I thought we agreed to have both (automated and manual)
13:24:55 <birtles> krit: but then how do you deliver the tests?
13:25:14 <birtles> heycam: we had that in the past, we asked people to eyeball the tests
13:25:42 <birtles> ChrisL: web-platform-tests doesn't allow multiple references like the CSS tests do
13:25:54 <birtles> ... it allows you to say it should match one or more references
13:26:31 <birtles> ... I remember that when we first did filters there were a lot of images exchanged and equations specced so that we had two implementations that were roughly pixel equivalent
13:26:45 <birtles> heycam: well ideally the definitions of the filter primitives are precise enough that you could say that
13:26:55 <birtles> ... the results should equal a certain image +/- a tolerance
13:27:12 <birtles> ... we could just add raster images and then work out what to do when it comes to automating
13:27:21 <birtles> ... since we don't have automation yet anyway
13:27:31 <birtles> ... maybe we don't need to worry about 1 pixel differences just yet
13:28:00 <birtles> ChrisL: well there are almost no tests at the moment so it would be better to have something people can argue over
13:28:33 <birtles> ... I thought of a way to test feDisplacement by covering a red rectangle
13:28:55 <birtles> heycam: some of the specs Adobe works on include a testing plan...
13:29:00 <birtles> krit: not for filters yet
13:29:22 <birtles> heycam: suppose you wanted to get help with testing, it would be helpful to have a list of what still needs testing
13:29:44 <birtles> ChrisL: when you look at the tests, the metadata in the tests tells you which section it covers
13:29:56 <birtles> heycam: so we could start by picking a section that doesn't have any tests
13:30:08 <birtles> ChrisL: we should also have tests to cover SVG, not just HTML
13:30:31 <birtles> ... thanks for the status update, that's helpful
13:31:18 <birtles> topic: SVG charter
13:31:29 <birtles> ChrisL: the charter went out just recently
13:31:36 <birtles> ... there's been a change in the W3C
13:31:51 <birtles> ... every charter that goes out needs to have positive responses from at least 5% of membership
13:32:02 <birtles> ... which equals about 20 members
13:32:14 <birtles> ... so please push your AC reps to respond
13:33:27 <birtles> topic: accessibility TF
13:33:43 <ed> question: Should there be a Co-Facilitator? If so, I would expect the SVG
13:33:44 <ed> 	Chairs would wish to nominate someone?
13:33:44 <birtles> ed: there was a mail about the accessibility TF asking who should lead this work from the SVG side
13:34:03 <birtles> heycam: so they're looking for a co-facilitator from our side?
13:34:05 <birtles> ed: yes
13:34:56 <birtles> heycam: if Rich is going to be heavily involved in the TF then I'd be happy for him to take it on if he feels comfortable with it
13:35:07 <birtles> ... I'll send a mail to Rich
13:35:16 <birtles> ChrisL: who else is going to be on it?
13:35:30 <birtles> heycam: I'll follow the mailing list
13:35:41 <birtles> krit: I'll be on the call and join the mailing list
13:36:05 <Zakim> -krit
13:36:38 <birtles> topic: text and CSS boxes
13:36:56 <birtles> Tav: CSS has blocks and inlines
13:37:13 <birtles> ... do SVG <text> elements behave as blocks and <tspans> as inlines?
13:37:22 <birtles> heycam: that's roughly how it works internally in Firefox
13:37:39 <ChrisL>  <text> is block, <tspan> is inline
13:37:43 <birtles> Tav: I was just wondering how to apply some of the CSS properties like line-height to SVG
13:38:14 <birtles> heycam: if you have specific questions about properties then they would be good things to bring up
13:38:43 <birtles> topic: TPAC
13:38:57 <birtles> ChrisL: I updated the wiki so we have a page for the TPAC now
13:39:13 <birtles> nikos_: do we know when the FXTF meeting is?
13:39:27 <birtles> ChrisL: no, but it seems like it might be during the SVG part of the week
13:39:37 <birtles> heycam: I recall something like that
13:39:43 <birtles> ... I'll send an email about that
13:40:52 <Zakim> -ChrisL
13:40:55 <Zakim> -Tav
13:40:56 <Zakim> -birtles
13:40:56 <Zakim> -ed
13:40:58 <Zakim> -stakagi
13:40:58 <Zakim> -nikos_
13:41:00 <Zakim> -heycam
13:41:01 <Zakim> GA_SVGWG()9:00AM has ended
13:41:01 <Zakim> Attendees were [IPcaller], ed, birtles, heycam, krit, stakagi, Tav, ChrisL, nikos_
13:41:06 <birtles> RRSAgent: make minutes public
13:41:06 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes public', birtles.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
13:41:16 <heycam> RRSAgent, make logs public
13:41:37 <birtles> RRSAgent: make minutes
13:41:37 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/09/25-svg-minutes.html birtles
13:42:19 <birtles> regrets: Rik, Thomas, Cyril
13:42:31 <birtles> apologies: Rik, Thomas, Cyril
13:42:41 <birtles> RRSAgent: make minutes
13:42:41 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/09/25-svg-minutes.html birtles
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