14:40:30 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #html-a11y
14:40:31 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/09/25-html-a11y-irc
14:40:32 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
14:40:34 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 2119
14:40:35 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)10:00AM scheduled to start 40 minutes ago
14:40:35 <trackbot> Meeting: HTML Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
14:40:36 <trackbot> Date: 25 September 2014
14:40:42 <janina> agenda?
14:40:50 <janina> zakim, clear agenda
14:40:50 <Zakim> agenda cleared
14:41:31 <janina> Chair: Janina
14:41:32 <janina> agenda+ Identify Scribe http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/index.php?title=Scribe_List
14:41:34 <janina> agenda+ TPAC 2014
14:41:37 <janina> agenda+ Longdesc CR Progress
14:41:39 <janina> agenda+ Our Alt Note http://rawgit.com/w3c/alt-techniques/master/index.html
14:41:42 <janina> agenda+ HTML Process Tweaks Going Forward? http://darobin.github.io/after5/
14:41:44 <janina> agenda+ Other Business
14:41:47 <janina> agenda+ Identify Chair and Scribe for the next TF teleconference http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/index.php?title=Scribe_List
14:41:50 <janina> agenda+ be done
14:54:30 <Zakim> WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)10:00AM has now started
14:54:37 <Zakim> +??P0
14:54:51 <janina>  zakim, ??P0 is me
14:54:51 <Zakim> +janina; got it
14:54:59 <janina> zakim, next item
14:54:59 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Identify Scribe http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/index.php?title=Scribe_List" taken up [from janina]
14:56:09 <paulc> paulc has joined #html-a11y
14:56:12 <ShaneM> ShaneM has joined #html-a11y
15:00:34 <janina> regrets: Rich, Adrian
15:00:41 <Zakim> +David_MacDonald
15:01:04 <Judy> Judy has joined #html-a11y
15:01:28 <Zakim> +MarkS
15:01:57 <janina> zakim, who's here?
15:01:57 <Zakim> On the phone I see janina, David_MacDonald, MarkS
15:01:59 <Zakim> On IRC I see Judy, ShaneM, paulc, RRSAgent, newtron, IanPouncey, Joshue, liam, janina, cabanier, joanie, Zakim, MarkS, hober, sivoais, trackbot
15:02:49 <Zakim> +Judy
15:03:17 <paulc> zakim, what is the code?
15:03:17 <Zakim> the conference code is 2119 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), paulc
15:03:41 <chaals> chaals has joined #html-a11y
15:03:41 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
15:03:51 <paulc> zakim, [Microsoft] is me
15:03:51 <Zakim> +paulc; got it
15:04:02 <David> David has joined #html-a11y
15:04:08 <paulc> On a very bad hotel wireless connection.  Staying on mute.
15:04:28 <chaals> zakim, call chaals-es
15:04:28 <Zakim> ok, chaals; the call is being made
15:04:29 <Zakim> +Chaals
15:04:58 <Zakim> +Liam
15:05:32 <Judy> zakim, who's on the phone?
15:05:32 <Zakim> On the phone I see janina, David_MacDonald, MarkS, Judy, paulc, Chaals, Liam
15:06:15 <David> scribe: David
15:06:35 <janina> zakim, next item
15:06:35 <Zakim> agendum 2. "TPAC 2014" taken up [from janina]
15:07:15 <David> TPAC... no news that's new, made progress... expect to be done soon
15:07:26 <paulc> okay re TPAC plans
15:07:57 <David> JA: hotel sold out... w3c block gone, more expensive for others
15:08:07 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:08:13 <IanPouncey> Zakim, IPcaller is me
15:08:13 <Zakim> +IanPouncey; got it
15:08:13 <David> JS: nearby hotels have better rates.
15:08:59 <Judy> s/hotels have/hotels *may* have/
15:09:03 <David> JS: W3C requests anyone moving hotels who is in w3C block, let us know so we can get them back in the block
15:09:32 <paulc> Are there rooms at higher rates at the Marriott?
15:09:41 <liam> [yes]
15:10:07 <Zakim> -Chaals
15:10:15 <David> Into the 300$ range outside the block
15:10:33 <janina> zakim, next item
15:10:33 <Zakim> agendum 3. "Longdesc CR Progress" taken up [from janina]
15:10:53 <chaals> zakim, call chaals.es
15:10:53 <Zakim> I am sorry, chaals; I do not know a number for chaals.es
15:10:56 <David> JS: no news ... waiting from director's offioce
15:11:08 <chaals> zakim, call chaals-es
15:11:08 <Zakim> ok, chaals; the call is being made
15:11:10 <Zakim> +Chaals
15:11:20 <Zakim> +JF
15:11:43 <janina> zakim, next item
15:11:43 <Zakim> agendum 4. "Our Alt Note http://rawgit.com/w3c/alt-techniques/master/index.html" taken up [from janina]
15:12:02 <JF> JF has joined #html-a11y
15:12:15 <David> JS: alt note
15:12:56 <chaals> q+
15:13:00 <David> C of C, objection to closing work as longdesc moves towards status... i'm concerned we'd have to reopen it, assuming LD not stopped by FO
15:13:30 <David> noting about the note status blocking any other rec... is there good reason to push it forward now...
15:13:52 <Zakim> +ShaneM
15:14:07 <Judy> q+
15:14:23 <David> LIUM: i filed bugs that there are use cases that should have Longdesc... bad to publish as is, until LD resolved
15:14:24 <JF> +1 for inclusion of @longdesc
15:15:03 <janina> ack c
15:15:06 <janina> ack ju
15:15:07 <paulc> Would an alternative plan be to publish a heartbeat of this document and then to publish a WG Note later after updating to include a reference to longdesc.
15:15:11 <David> CM: not worried about publishing and reopeing, but we should wait for directors decision, and update if director approves LD
15:15:20 <David> JB: agree
15:16:09 <paulc> The latest info on the TR page is http://www.w3.org/TR/2012/WD-html-alt-techniques-20121025/
15:16:15 <David> JB: concerned it looks like comprehensive spec, but doesn't have LD, which could be represented in the document... so agree to wait for director
15:16:55 <Judy> s/have LD/some kinds of complex images/
15:16:55 <chaals> q+ to suggest a heartbeat makes sense
15:17:12 <David> PC: could publish as heartbeat... it's approaching 2nd anniversary so needs some movement
15:17:12 <Zakim> +Cynthia_Shelly
15:17:29 <ShaneM> +1 to push a heartbeat.
15:17:50 <David> PC: editors can publish heartbeat without permission
15:18:45 <paulc> q+
15:18:53 <David> JB: agree, but let's wait for decision... might just a few teaks be needed or large revision, let's consider HB after we're not guessing
15:18:54 <janina> ack c
15:18:54 <Zakim> chaals, you wanted to suggest a heartbeat makes sense
15:19:34 <David> CM: HB makes a lot of sense, and hopefully have it fixed and ready
15:20:02 <ShaneM> s/teaks/tweaks/g
15:20:21 <David> JS: not a note yet because needs to be perfected... are we stirring the pot with a HB...
15:20:36 <David> JB: i'm ok with a heartbeat... but not as a note
15:21:31 <paulc> Someone should file a bug for the "image description problems" and then the SOTD can point to the outstanding bugs
15:21:35 <David> JB: if we do a HB, we'd need to publish our concerns that some might be changed soon, and that there might be other image types not included
15:21:51 <David> CM: I think we should publish HB
15:22:02 <paulc> There are a LOT of changes in the document that is very different that the 2012 WD.
15:22:09 <janina> q?
15:22:11 <janina> ack l
15:22:11 <Zakim> liam, you wanted to prefer not to do a heartbeat until after the FO
15:22:46 <David> Liam: don't want to publish without clear statement about the status of LD
15:22:56 <paulc> Remember that we had Formal Objections about this document being on Recommendation Track that were withdrawn.
15:23:06 <JF> +1 to support Liam's point
15:23:32 <David> PC: simple rule for JB, publish early and often
15:23:53 <Judy> s/simple rule for JB/simple rule
15:24:01 <David> PC: we had formal Obj on this going to rec track...
15:24:16 <janina> q?
15:24:19 <David> PC: it's much better than what we have now
15:24:19 <janina> acl p
15:24:24 <JF> +Q
15:24:37 <paulc> ack paulc
15:25:10 <janina> q?
15:25:14 <janina> ack jf
15:25:16 <David> John: Normally agree with OC, but this is so riligious, about LD, we should hold
15:25:43 <David> s/riligious/religious
15:25:54 <David> s/OC/PC
15:26:01 <MarkS> s/LD/longdesc/G
15:26:42 <David> JS: how about HB in early october
15:27:10 <janina> zakim, next item
15:27:10 <Zakim> agendum 5. "HTML Process Tweaks Going Forward? http://darobin.github.io/after5/" taken up [from janina]
15:27:48 <David> JS: it is going on... just noting it
15:28:05 <janina> zakim, close this item
15:28:05 <Zakim> agendum 5 closed
15:28:06 <Zakim> I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:28:06 <Zakim> 7. Identify Chair and Scribe for the next TF teleconference http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/index.php?title=Scribe_List [from janina]
15:28:09 <janina> zakim, next item
15:28:09 <Zakim> agendum 7. "Identify Chair and Scribe for the next TF teleconference http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/index.php?title=Scribe_List" taken up [from janina]
15:28:12 <David> JS: invitation to participate in discussion on WG list
15:28:22 <janina> zakim, close this item
15:28:22 <Zakim> agendum 7 closed
15:28:23 <Zakim> I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:
15:28:23 <Zakim> 8. be done [from janina]
15:28:42 <janina> topic: other business
15:29:39 <David> JS: i don't have summary of various conversation to 5.1 items... been busy with OF... '
15:29:48 <David> s/OF/PF
15:30:44 <MarkS> scribe: MarkS
15:31:10 <MarkS> DM: I would like to see progress on dealing with footnotes, navigation to and from the reference
15:31:19 <janina> q?
15:31:20 <MarkS> ...difficult to do for screen reader users.
15:31:40 <MarkS> ...there are arguments against it i.e. we already have links to handle this.
15:31:53 <MarkS> ...this is also relevant to ePub
15:32:16 <MarkS> JS: have you looked at ePub's handling of footnotes?
15:32:38 <MarkS> ...also, what specifically is the problem for screen reader uses?  is there overlap with other users?
15:33:02 <MarkS> ...there is a problem if the beginning and end of the note is not clearly delineated with markup
15:33:09 <janina> q?
15:33:11 <MarkS> ace li
15:33:13 <janina> ack l
15:33:13 <Zakim> liam, you wanted to note that there has been footnote conversations in digital publishing IG and in CSS, some similarities with longdesc
15:33:14 <MarkS> ace li
15:33:26 <MarkS> s/ace li//G
15:34:15 <JF> +Q
15:34:18 <MarkS> LQ: two kinds of issues with footnotes that are not satisfied with just links.  A sighted user can see at a glance if its a bibliographic reference, or substantive
15:34:38 <MarkS> ...ebooks are struggling with this
15:34:59 <MarkS> ...nice to have on the same page if the room is there, and there are no flow issues
15:35:18 <MarkS> ...in ebook readers, ePub, there will need to be a way of marking what type of footnote it is
15:35:22 <David__> David__ has joined #html-a11y
15:35:32 <MarkS> ...a role attribute on an aside element, or some other solution
15:35:36 <Zakim> -David_MacDonald
15:35:56 <MarkS> JS: so there is lack of support for good handling in HTML5, if ePub formally adopts HTML5 as a solution
15:36:33 <janina> q?
15:36:36 <MarkS> LQ: also for those who use HTML5 CSS in their print publishing workflow
15:36:36 <Zakim> -Chaals
15:36:36 <janina> ack j
15:37:26 <MarkS> JF: we deal with footnotes a lot.  some people use special characters to mark a note, double arrows for instance.
15:37:26 <Zakim> +David_MacDonald
15:37:47 <David__> David__ has joined #html-a11y
15:38:02 <liam> [CSS already has asterisk, dagger, obelisk, section mark, double bar counting sequence]
15:38:02 <MarkS> ...also multiple links to a single footnote.  makes it hard to return back to where you originally referenced the footnote
15:38:14 <janina> q?
15:38:16 <MarkS> ...was it the first, second or third reference
15:38:32 <Judy> q+
15:39:40 <MarkS> ...legal documents are very difficult to solve this issue creatively
15:39:47 <janina> ack ju
15:39:49 <MarkS> s/are/make it
15:40:11 <MarkS> s/legal/the formal structure of legal
15:40:38 <MarkS> DM: john and and I can brainstorm more on this
15:42:15 <MarkS> JS: this isn't just an accessibility thing.  I think we need to involve others in addressing this issue.  This would be good for TPAC, ePub will be there and will be meeting with PF to talk about accessibility
15:42:42 <MarkS> ...sounds like this should be taken up by us, HTML WG and ePub.  TPAC would be ideal
15:43:29 <JF> +Q
15:43:35 <janina> ack jf
15:44:02 <MarkS> JF: so david and I should get together and put together a discussion paper to kickoff a discussion at TPAC
15:44:10 <MarkS> JS: that would be very valuable
15:44:21 <David> 613-2354902 phone
15:44:29 <MarkS> JF: we have a good idea what the issues are so I don't think it will take us long to do
15:44:49 <David> s/613-2354902/
15:44:58 <janina> q?
15:46:06 <David> JS: Thanks David for the suggestion, David and John will get together to oresent discussion paper on footnotes
15:46:09 <MarkS> http://www.w3.org/wiki/HTML/Canvas_Task_Force/CR-Test
15:46:40 <David> MS: Rich drew up a paper, I've written test for 12 issues
15:47:26 <David> MS: we'll have more for you next week, the is a new meeting time for the canvas, TF, Friday 3pm eastern
15:48:35 <David> JS: other business. media subteam needs to get together, have comments, and exoect nore for WAI EO
15:48:49 <David> s/exoect/Expect
15:48:58 <David> ws/nore/more
15:49:29 <David> s/oresent/present
15:50:14 <David> 10EST monday, will  meet to discuss comments, will put out notice...
15:50:58 <David> next week Shane will Scribe
15:51:15 <Zakim> -ShaneM
15:51:25 <Zakim> -Cynthia_Shelly
15:51:29 <Zakim> -janina
15:51:30 <Zakim> -MarkS
15:51:30 <Zakim> -IanPouncey
15:51:31 <David> zakim, bye
15:51:31 <Zakim> Zakim has left #html-a11y
15:51:50 <David> rrsagent, make log public
15:52:05 <David> rrsagent, make minutes
15:52:05 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/09/25-html-a11y-minutes.html David
17:22:22 <Judy> Judy has joined #html-a11y
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