18:46:16 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aapi
18:46:16 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/09/23-aapi-irc
18:46:18 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs member
18:46:18 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #aapi
18:46:20 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAI_PF
18:46:20 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see WAI_PFWG(AAPI)3:00PM scheduled to start in 14 minutes
18:46:21 <trackbot> Meeting: Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference
18:46:21 <trackbot> Date: 23 September 2014
18:46:41 <clown> chair:  Joseph_Scheuhammer
18:46:50 <clown> regrets:  Cynthia_Shelley
18:47:02 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/09/23-aapi-minutes.html clown
18:48:38 <clown> agenda: this
18:48:49 <clown> agenda+ News: Heart-beat working draft in time for TPAC.
18:48:49 <clown> agenda+ News: ACTION-1506 Stand-alone document for accessible name computation.
18:48:58 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-1104: (Cynthia) UIA mapping for aria-describedby when referenced accessible is non-existant (see: http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/implementation/aria-implementation.html#ariaDescribedBy).
18:48:58 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-1396: (Cynthia) MSAA+UIAExpress mapping of grid role.
18:48:58 <clown> agenda+ ISSUE-671/ACTION-1492: (David) Mapping of aria-invalid should be as tokens, not as strings. (see: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2014Jul/0081.html).
18:48:58 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-1311: (Joseph) Clarify that presentation role should preserve separation of nodes within tables/lists.
18:48:59 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-1372: (Cynthia) Create a test case, if there is none, to test the rowgroup role.
18:48:59 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-1373: (Cynthia) Create a test case for when aria-posinset and aria-setsize are provided explicitly on some but not all elements.
18:48:59 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-1409 : (Joanie) Progress on ATK API for position, level, etc.
18:49:00 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-1445: (Cynthia) Investigate the ideal uai mapping for role presentation in tables and lists
18:49:00 <clown> agenda+ Processing issues/actions:https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/products/23
18:49:00 <clown> agenda+ be done.
18:53:04 <Zakim> WAI_PFWG(AAPI)3:00PM has now started
18:53:11 <Zakim> +[GVoice]
18:53:19 <clown> zakim, GVoice is Joseph_Scheuhammer
18:53:19 <Zakim> +Joseph_Scheuhammer; got it
18:53:26 <clown> zakim, I am Joseph_Scheuhammer
18:53:26 <Zakim> ok, clown, I now associate you with Joseph_Scheuhammer
18:53:35 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/09/23-aapi-minutes.html clown
18:55:26 <Zakim> +Joanmarie_Diggs
19:00:35 <davidb> davidb has joined #aapi
19:01:09 <Zakim> +Bryan_Garaventa
19:01:48 <davidb_> davidb_ has joined #aapi
19:02:07 <Zakim> + +1.416.848.aaaa
19:02:48 <davidb_> Zakim, 1.416.848.aaaa is David_Bolter
19:02:48 <Zakim> sorry, davidb_, I do not recognize a party named '1.416.848.aaaa'
19:03:03 <Zakim> - +1.416.848.aaaa
19:04:03 <Zakim> + +1.416.848.aabb
19:04:26 <davidb_> Zakim, aabb is David_Bolter
19:04:26 <Zakim> +David_Bolter; got it
19:04:28 <joanie> Zakim, I am Joanmarie_Diggs
19:04:28 <Zakim> ok, joanie, I now associate you with Joanmarie_Diggs
19:04:42 <joanie> scribnick: joanie
19:04:45 <joanie> scribenick: joanie
19:05:14 <joanie> regrets: Cynthia_Shelly
19:05:29 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/09/23-aapi-minutes.html clown
19:05:57 <joanie> Zakim, next item
19:05:57 <Zakim> agendum 1. "News: Heart-beat working draft in time for TPAC." taken up [from clown]
19:06:37 <joanie> JS: At last week's editors' meeting, we decided to try for a heart-beat draft in time for TPAC (31 October?).
19:06:50 <joanie> JS: There is a set of edits I'd like to get done for that for the core mapping guide.
19:07:12 <joanie> JS: I'd ask others to look through the issues and actions to see if there's anything they'd like to include and raise the profile so that it gets done.
19:07:30 <joanie> JS: The deadline is two weeks before TPAC to get it through the W3C publishing process.
19:07:50 <joanie> JS: So I'm going to say, give me what you want done by 10 October.
19:08:05 <joanie> DB: I want to ping Marco and Alex about this. Do you want to send out an email?
19:08:44 <joanie> JS: I could, but my reluctance is that there are people on the list who are not in this group. They might provide ARIA spec suggestions.
19:09:03 <joanie> JS: Ok, I'll be explicit about what we are looking for (mapping guide) and send an email.
19:09:13 <joanie> DB: (Asks about others)
19:09:38 <joanie> JS: The group is also interested in ARIA, HTML, and SVG spec stuff as well.
19:09:52 <joanie> DB: I'm concerned about additions and then people wanting to change things.
19:10:07 <joanie> JS: This is a working draft; it provides the direction we're heading.
19:10:27 <davidb_> s/additions and then people wanting to change things/this going to far before implementation feedback
19:10:32 <joanie> JS: SVG is going to be brand new. It will provide what the accessibility mappings are for certain SVG elements.
19:10:45 <joanie> JS: People can then react.
19:10:50 <joanie> JS: This doesn't involve testing.
19:10:55 <MichaelC_> MichaelC_ has joined #aapi
19:10:58 <joanie> DB: There's an investment of people working on it.
19:11:50 <joanie> JS: (Looks for document)
19:12:36 <clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/svg/svg-implementation.html
19:12:54 <joanie> DB: This is fairly large already.
19:13:07 <joanie> JS: He started with the core mapping guide and started removing stuff.
19:13:13 <joanie> JS: But I don't think he's removed enough.
19:13:21 <clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/svg/svg-implementation.html#mapping_role_table
19:13:44 <joanie> DB: The above is probably the more interesting part.
19:14:02 <joanie> (Discussion about mapping of div)
19:14:16 <joanie> JS: He was looking for the most generic role you can give it.
19:14:32 <joanie> JS: Almost all are none or group.
19:15:32 <joanie> JS: We put name and description in its own document. But he still has name and description in here.
19:15:53 <joanie> JS: Nothing special about group position in SVG.
19:15:55 <joanie> DB: Yet.
19:16:11 <joanie> JS: The SVG documentation tells you how to override core.
19:16:21 <joanie> JS: There's something similar for HTML.
19:17:23 <joanie> Zakim, next item
19:17:23 <Zakim> agendum 2. "News: ACTION-1506 Stand-alone document for accessible name computation." taken up [from clown]
19:17:36 <clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/accessiblename/accName.html
19:17:47 <joanie> JS: I have made at least 10 drafts or so of this. Above is the latest.
19:18:08 <joanie> JS: It currently takes the name and description computation out of the core mapping guide and sticking that stuff in its own document.
19:18:15 <clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/accessiblename/accName.html#mapping_additional_nd_te
19:18:20 <joanie> JS: I have cleaned up the actual algorithm which is above.
19:18:44 <joanie> JS: Wherever possible I substituted a role or Accessibility API term instead of the HTML term. Or added the SVG term.
19:19:05 <clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/accessiblename/accName.html#nameMappingTable
19:19:12 <joanie> JS: I'd like to get your opinion on the above mapping table.
19:19:28 <joanie> JS: I have more or less finished the accessible name row; I've not finished the accessible description role.
19:20:40 <joanie> DB: It would be good for Alex Surkov to review this document.
19:20:58 <joanie> JS: I want to further improve this text to make it more algorithmic and less "chatty."
19:23:30 <joanie> DB: Has James commented on it yet?
19:24:10 <joanie> JS: When we talked about this two weeks ago (?), he said "I have every confidence in you."
19:24:42 <joanie> JS: I've made James an editor of this document. Rich and Steve Faulkner will also be editors.
19:24:51 <joanie> JS: Rich for SVG and Steve for HTML.
19:25:23 <joanie> DB: I feel like Alex Surkov has contributed to this, but I guess an editor is something different.
19:25:48 <joanie> JS: (Explains the nature of being an editor)
19:27:17 <joanie> Zakim, next item
19:27:17 <Zakim> agendum 3. "ACTION-1104: (Cynthia) UIA mapping for aria-describedby when referenced accessible is non-existant (see:
19:27:19 <Zakim> ... http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/implementation/aria-implementation.html#ariaDescribedBy)." taken up [from clown]
19:27:28 <joanie> JS: Cynthia is not here, so....
19:27:31 <joanie> Zakim, next item
19:27:31 <Zakim> agendum 3 was just opened, joanie
19:27:37 <joanie> Zakim, take up item 4
19:27:37 <Zakim> agendum 4. "ACTION-1396: (Cynthia) MSAA+UIAExpress mapping of grid role." taken up [from clown]
19:27:43 <joanie> JS: Ditto
19:27:46 <joanie> Zakim, take up item 5
19:27:46 <Zakim> agendum 5. "ISSUE-671/ACTION-1492: (David) Mapping of aria-invalid should be as tokens, not as strings. (see: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2014Jul/0081.html)."
19:27:49 <Zakim> ... taken up [from clown]
19:27:54 <clown> action-1492?
19:27:54 <trackbot> action-1492 -- David Bolter to Investigate issue 671 and propose a solution that is clear for widgets -- due 2014-08-05 -- OPEN
19:27:54 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1492
19:28:17 <joanie> DB: Not yet done. Other issues came up unexpectedly.
19:28:39 <joanie> JS: Moving due date back another week.
19:28:41 <joanie> DB: Sure.
19:28:50 <joanie> Zakim, take up item 6
19:28:50 <Zakim> agendum 6. "ACTION-1311: (Joseph) Clarify that presentation role should preserve separation of nodes within tables/lists." taken up [from clown]
19:29:00 <clown> action-1311?
19:29:00 <trackbot> action-1311 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to Clarify that presentation role should preserve separation of nodes within tables/lists; work out in UAIG 1.1 and with implementors/vendors how to resolve this. -- due 2014-08-26 -- OPEN
19:29:00 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1311
19:29:03 <joanie> JS: This is the one I need advice on from everyone.
19:29:32 <clown> <table role="presentation" …>
19:29:51 <joanie> JS: At one point, Firefox changed how they handle tables with role="presentation" so that all the text in the table became one object in the accessibility tree.
19:30:07 <joanie> JS: Matt King raised a concern about the huge text blob.
19:30:19 <clown> IA2_ROLE_TEXTFRAME
19:30:42 <joanie> JS: Firefox changed so that each td element became a textframe.
19:30:56 <joanie> JS: We need to clarify this in the mapping guide.
19:31:23 <joanie> JS: When the presentation role is applied to tables or lists, we need to separate the elements to avoid a single text blob.
19:31:33 <joanie> JS: I'm struggling with the wording.
19:31:46 <joanie> DB: The best way for me to help is write an email.
19:32:56 <joanie> JS: I'd like to include this in time for the heartbeat release prior to TPAC.
19:34:11 <joanie> JD: Is there draft text already that you are asking us to review?
19:34:26 <joanie> JS: No. I've given up. I am asking the implementors to provide the clarification/text.
19:35:34 <clown> I'm looking to the experts to propose the text.
19:36:55 <joanie> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1013584
19:39:04 <joanie> JD: Looking at the above bug, 1) Div should be used (i.e. ATK_ROLE_SECTION) not text. This is explained in the conversation I had in that bug with Alex Surkov.
19:39:15 <joanie> JD: Beyond that, in my opening report I state:
19:39:26 <joanie> "Expected results: The child elements would each be exposed as if they were div elements."
19:39:40 <joanie> JD: How much (more) clarification do you need, Joseph.
19:39:53 <joanie> s/Joseph./Joseph?/
19:40:02 <joanie> JS: And the next question is where does that text go?
19:40:17 <joanie> JS: I guess the mapping of the presentation role? Let me see....
19:40:22 <clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/implementation/aria-implementation.html#role-map-presentation
19:40:33 <joanie> JS: No. I don't think it works there. Looking at the above.
19:43:29 <clown> <img role="presentation" ..>
19:44:54 <clown> <img alt="" ..>
19:46:24 <joanie> JD: I think that table you point to IS the appropriate place to put this text. However:
19:47:05 <joanie> JD: I do not think that ROLE_PANEL is the right mapping. A panel tends to be a thing (yes, generic) which contains widgets.
19:47:39 <joanie> JD: role="presentation" is not a thing that contains widgets. Therefore, treating all things role="presentation" as if they were div elements would be perfect
19:47:59 <joanie> JD: On ATK/AT-SPI2, div is mapped to ROLE_SECTION.
19:48:06 <clown> issue-677
19:48:06 <trackbot> issue-677 -- ATK/AT-SPI mapping of role="presentation" to ROLE_PANEL -- open
19:48:06 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/677
19:48:31 <joanie> JS: Ok, I just made the above issue to address the mapping change.
19:49:58 <davidb> DB: (via IRC) I'd want to keep IA2 close to ATK so if we change this we should also consider IA2_ROLE_SECTION
19:54:01 <joanie> Zakim, next item
19:54:01 <Zakim> agendum 3. "ACTION-1104: (Cynthia) UIA mapping for aria-describedby when referenced accessible is non-existant (see:
19:54:04 <Zakim> ... http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/implementation/aria-implementation.html#ariaDescribedBy)." taken up [from clown]
19:54:22 <joanie> Zakim, take up item 6
19:54:22 <Zakim> agendum 6. "ACTION-1311: (Joseph) Clarify that presentation role should preserve separation of nodes within tables/lists." taken up [from clown]
19:56:03 <clown> "Expected results: The child elements would each be exposed as separate accessible objects."
19:56:55 <davidb> JD:"The child elements would each be exposed as separate accessible objects".... of type blah blah over here
19:57:50 <joanie> JD: To clarify, there should be a pointer to the potentially-platform-dependent role.
19:58:01 <clown> "In the case of tables and lists, the child elements would each be exposed as separate accessible objects as per the different AAPI role mappings"
19:58:14 <joanie> JD: i.e. if ATK wants ROLE_SECTION and IA2 ROLE_TEXTFRAME
19:58:30 <joanie> JS: The above language will be added to the role="presentation" mapping.
19:58:51 <joanie> DB: The case we're talking about is only if there's text in the table, right?
19:59:43 <clown> <table role="presentation">… <td><p>Some text <img src=".."></p></td> …</table>
20:00:35 <davidb> JD: if there was other stuff in the TD it can still be in the div/section (DB is trying to paraphrase here)
20:00:43 <davidb> DB: ah ok.
20:00:50 <clown> becomes:  "<div><p>Some text <img src=".."></p></div>
20:01:15 <davidb> TD -> DIV
20:02:07 <joanie> Zakim, item 7
20:02:07 <Zakim> I don't understand 'item 7', joanie
20:02:12 <joanie> Zakim, take up item 7
20:02:12 <Zakim> agendum 7. "ACTION-1372: (Cynthia) Create a test case, if there is none, to test the rowgroup role." taken up [from clown]
20:02:21 <joanie> JD: Cynthia is not here.
20:02:35 <joanie> Zakim, take up item 8
20:02:35 <Zakim> agendum 8. "ACTION-1373: (Cynthia) Create a test case for when aria-posinset and aria-setsize are provided explicitly on some but not all elements." taken up [from clown]
20:02:41 <joanie> JD: Cynthia is not here.
20:02:54 <joanie> Zakim, take up item 9.
20:02:54 <Zakim> agendum 9. "ACTION-1409 : (Joanie) Progress on ATK API for position, level, etc." taken up [from clown]
20:03:01 <clown> action-1409?
20:03:01 <trackbot> action-1409 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Monitor progress of bug against atk in gnome's bugzilla requesting new position, level, and other api be added (https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=727453) -- due 2014-08-05 -- OPEN
20:03:01 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1409
20:03:57 <joanie> JD: This is on hold for at least a month or so because GNOME 3.14 was just released. This new API will need to go into 3.15/3.16.
20:04:33 <joanie> JD: I will likely do an initial implementation of the API myself and sanity check it via Gtk and/or WebKitGtk to be sure that I didn't get it wrong.
20:05:00 <joanie> JD: And if it seems sane, then get the ATK and AT-SPI2 maintainers to accept it.
20:05:09 <joanie> s/then get/try to get/
20:06:45 <joanie> Zakim, take up item 10.
20:06:45 <Zakim> agendum 10. "ACTION-1445: (Cynthia) Investigate the ideal uai mapping for role presentation in tables and lists" taken up [from clown]
20:06:54 <joanie> JD: Cynthia is not here.
20:06:57 <joanie> Zakim, take up item 11
20:06:57 <Zakim> agendum 11. "Processing issues/actions:https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/products/23" taken up [from clown]
20:07:06 <Zakim> -David_Bolter
20:07:11 <joanie> JS: End of meeting.
20:07:58 <Zakim> -Bryan_Garaventa
20:08:00 <Zakim> -Joanmarie_Diggs
20:08:22 <joanie> Zakim, part
20:08:22 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees were Joseph_Scheuhammer, Joanmarie_Diggs, Bryan_Garaventa, +1.416.848.aaaa, +1.416.848.aabb, David_Bolter
20:08:22 <Zakim> Zakim has left #aapi
20:08:28 <joanie> RRSAgent, stop