IRC log of webizen on 2014-09-05

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:41:51 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #webizen
13:41:51 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/09/05-webizen-irc
13:41:55 [koalie]
Zakim, this will be webiz
13:41:55 [Zakim]
ok, koalie; I see Team_JEFF(WEBIZ)10:00AM scheduled to start in 19 minutes
13:42:07 [koalie]
agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webizen/2014Sep/0006.html
13:42:31 [koalie]
-> http://www.w3.org/2014/08/20-webizen-minutes.html Previous (2014-08-20)
13:42:37 [koalie]
meeting: Webizen Task Force teleconference
13:42:41 [koalie]
chair: JeffJaffe
13:43:59 [mediaprophet]
zakim@voip.w3.org seems down.
13:44:03 [mediaprophet]
i’ll call in using skype.
13:44:16 [koalie]
regrets: AnnBassetti, GeorgRehm
13:44:55 [koalie]
agenda+ finalize the market survey
13:45:17 [koalie]
agenda+ discuss representation
13:45:41 [koalie]
agenda+ how to present "representation" in the survey
13:55:24 [Zakim]
Team_JEFF(WEBIZ)10:00AM has now started
13:55:27 [Zakim]
Team_JEFF(WEBIZ)10:00AM has ended
13:55:28 [Zakim]
Attendees were
13:55:48 [koalie]
mediaprophet, voip doesn't work for me either
13:55:58 [Zakim]
Team_JEFF(WEBIZ)10:00AM has now started
13:56:05 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
13:56:14 [mediaprophet]
I’ve just dialed in...
13:56:21 [mediaprophet]
skype
13:56:21 [koalie]
ah, great!
13:56:28 [mediaprophet]
:)
13:56:31 [koalie]
hang on while others join, please
13:56:38 [mediaprophet]
np
13:57:19 [ahaller2]
ahaller2 has joined #webizen
13:57:52 [Zakim]
+Veronica
13:58:04 [veronica]
hi all
13:58:39 [koalie]
scribenick: koalie
13:59:22 [Zakim]
+koalie
13:59:58 [koalie]
Zakim, [ is Tim_Holborn
13:59:58 [Zakim]
+Tim_Holborn; got it
14:00:12 [mediaprophet]
:)
14:01:13 [Zakim]
+ +31.20.800.aaaa
14:01:16 [jeff]
jeff has joined #webizen
14:01:28 [Zakim]
+Jeff
14:01:57 [Zakim]
+??P12
14:02:24 [koalie]
Zakim, aaaa is Michiel_Leenaars
14:02:24 [Zakim]
+Michiel_Leenaars; got it
14:02:32 [jeff]
zakim, who is on the phone?
14:02:32 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Tim_Holborn, Veronica, koalie, Michiel_Leenaars, Jeff, ??P12
14:02:43 [Zakim]
+ +1.412.235.aabb
14:03:01 [koalie]
Zakim, aabb is Brian_Kardell
14:03:01 [Zakim]
+Brian_Kardell; got it
14:03:03 [Zakim]
+??P22
14:03:17 [koalie]
Zakim, ??P22 Armin_Haller
14:03:17 [Zakim]
I don't understand '??P22 Armin_Haller', koalie
14:03:25 [olleo]
olleo has joined #webizen
14:03:29 [koalie]
Zakim, ??P22 is Armin_Haller
14:03:29 [Zakim]
+Armin_Haller; got it
14:03:55 [koalie]
Zakim, ??P2 is Olle_Olsson
14:03:55 [Zakim]
I already had ??P2 as Bim, koalie
14:04:05 [koalie]
Zakim, ??P12 is Olle_Olsson
14:04:05 [Zakim]
+Olle_Olsson; got it
14:04:34 [koalie]
Jeff: 3rd or 4th call + extensive discusions on mailing list
14:04:52 [koalie]
... we had a task force in the spring, presented proposal to the Advisory Committee, they rejected it
14:05:04 [koalie]
... our focus since reboot has been on a survey
14:05:34 [koalie]
... We made good progress today is the final review of the questionnaire
14:05:42 [koalie]
... intent is to send next Monday, 8-Sep
14:05:52 [koalie]
... we'll tweet it to 93.4K W3C followers
14:05:58 [koalie]
... we'll send it to the advisory committee
14:06:12 [koalie]
... we'll make public mentions of it so not only twitter users can take it
14:06:17 [koalie]
... survey will last 3 weeks
14:06:27 [koalie]
... the week of the 29-Sep we'll have another TF teleconference
14:06:38 [koalie]
... to review the results and finalise structure of the program
14:06:55 [koalie]
... to present at the next AC meeting the week of October 27
14:07:27 [koalie]
... let's go to the survey
14:07:51 [koalie]
-> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/1/webizen-survey/ drft Webizen Program interest survey
14:07:57 [koalie]
s/drf/draf/
14:08:10 [koalie]
s/<koalie> ->/<koaliie> ->/G
14:08:46 [koalie]
RRSagent, make minutes
14:08:46 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/09/05-webizen-minutes.html koalie
14:09:06 [koalie]
Jeff: go to the survey, please
14:09:20 [koalie]
... we took mostly what was in the wiki
14:09:53 [koalie]
Tim: It's not open yet
14:10:35 [koalie]
Jeff: I prefer that people look at the instrument itself
14:10:38 [ahaller2]
Armin: it does not work for me either
14:10:52 [koalie]
Jeff: so you see the actual survey rather than the outline in the wiki
14:12:19 [koalie]
Tim: How are you refecting in the intro that W3C is changing as the world evolves?
14:13:45 [koalie]
... side and ideology, v-a-v HTML, also accelarating participation (cf. IGF actions)
14:14:13 [koalie]
Jeff: Focus on industry is a way, Community Groups is another; we're changin in so many ways, I didn't want to lose my audience is a too long manifesto
14:14:45 [michiell]
Q+
14:14:52 [koalie]
Jeff: if you have suggestions, after reading the prologue, please, send them
14:14:53 [koalie]
ack m
14:14:54 [virginie]
virginie has joined #webizen
14:15:11 [koalie]
Michiel: I'm reading this as though it were written for a 4th grader
14:15:49 [koalie]
Michiel: positioning is very abstract
14:15:57 [Zakim]
+ +33.4.42.36.aacc
14:15:58 [koalie]
... it wouldn't appeal
14:16:08 [virginie]
zakim, aacc is me
14:16:08 [Zakim]
+virginie; got it
14:16:27 [koalie]
Jeff: Currently, what we're trying to do with that, if you look at the bottom of the prologue, there is a link to the goals of the program which are a bit more specific
14:16:44 [virginie]
zakim, who is on the phone ?
14:16:44 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Tim_Holborn, Veronica, koalie, Michiel_Leenaars, Jeff, Olle_Olsson, Brian_Kardell, Armin_Haller, virginie
14:16:44 [koalie]
... to your point, I'm not an expert in either writing or creating surveys
14:16:54 [koalie]
... So I'd love to get more input from people
14:16:57 [koalie]
[Virginie joins]
14:17:08 [bkardell_]
bkardell_ has joined #webizen
14:17:19 [koalie]
Jeff: We could provide in the survey a link to a longer description
14:17:57 [koalie]
Michiel: Can we skip the questions if you don't reply yes?
14:18:06 [koalie]
Jeff: No, unfortunately, that is a limitation of the instrument
14:18:33 [koalie]
Tim: @@@
14:18:34 [bkardell_]
+?
14:18:52 [koalie]
Jim: That's my intention, it's not overly explicit
14:19:03 [koalie]
s/Jim/Jeff:/
14:19:36 [koalie]
Jeff: In question 5, one of the answers, the 2nd, that's a somewhat weak example which reflects what you're requesting
14:19:39 [mediaprophet]
question was about whether the introduction of the program, provides a review function that allows it to be reviewed, refined, and improved once the program has developed (and obtains take-up, etc.)
14:19:58 [koalie]
Jeff: I don't know if there is a place where we should make this stronger in the wiki or survey
14:20:04 [koalie]
... to show we're on the same page
14:20:13 [koalie]
Tim: how many languages is this survey being offered in
14:21:00 [koalie]
Coralie: English; I could provide French translation
14:21:06 [michiell]
I think all the yes/no questions can go away
14:21:12 [koalie]
... but then, why not other languages? how long would that delay opening the survey?
14:21:18 [koalie]
Tim: It's worth thinking about it
14:21:21 [koalie]
Jeff: Great idea
14:21:46 [koalie]
... Coralie how long would it take?
14:21:50 [koalie]
Coralie: Probably a day
14:21:58 [michiell]
For instance question 8 could be deleted if question 9 has a option 'no tangible benefits' at the end
14:22:04 [michiell]
That would reduce the amount of questions
14:22:08 [koalie]
Jeff: I'm happy to delay this a day or two to give the option for people to fill out the survey in their own language
14:22:16 [koalie]
q+
14:22:28 [koalie]
JEff: we have about 20 languages
14:22:30 [virginie]
could help Koalie reading french translation, once done
14:22:30 [koalie]
ack me
14:23:13 [koalie]
Coralie: note: English is the work language of the W3C
14:23:24 [koalie]
Tim: there is a demand, still
14:23:46 [mediaprophet]
+1
14:23:47 [koalie]
ACTION: Coralie to get survey, once final, translated in W3C Offices languages
14:23:54 [koalie]
Jeff: there is nothing technical in the survey
14:24:19 [koalie]
... Non-technical survey might benefit from being multi-lingual
14:24:32 [mediaprophet]
+1
14:24:40 [koalie]
... it also signals to the world that we're taking extra steps to be inclusive
14:24:54 [virginie]
q+
14:24:55 [koalie]
Jeff: a couple-day delay is fine
14:25:00 [koalie]
ack v
14:25:00 [jeff]
ack vir
14:25:09 [ahaller2]
q+
14:25:16 [koalie]
Virginie: I wanted to check when the finalization of the survey takes place, when is it frozen?
14:25:29 [koalie]
Jeff: We plan to complete and freeze the survey in today's meeting
14:25:38 [koalie]
... and run survey from sep 8-29
14:25:44 [bkardell_]
+q
14:25:47 [koalie]
... with translations, this slips
14:25:49 [koalie]
ack ah
14:26:12 [koalie]
scribenick: veronica
14:26:32 [veronica]
tim: I have a question about #2
14:26:45 [jeff]
s/2/7/
14:26:58 [veronica]
.. unique member id #, maybe extend with uri or url
14:27:11 [veronica]
... could be more clear for people
14:27:26 [jeff]
s/tim/armin/
14:27:55 [veronica]
jeff: ques 7 are radio buttons
14:28:11 [veronica]
... and you will be able to type multiple
14:28:23 [veronica]
... there's bug with ques 7
14:28:35 [ahaller2]
Armin: Listing your profile on the W3C website and Name listed on our Supporters page (with # years) seem to be similar for people. Maybe we can combine them to one answer.
14:28:39 [veronica]
... should be check boxes
14:28:55 [veronica]
koalie: I'll fix this
14:29:00 [veronica]
jeff: and ques 9
14:29:12 [veronica]
... this is a fantastic beta team!
14:29:14 [jeff]
ack bk
14:29:43 [veronica]
tim: with 9, maybe keep it simple, way to provide suggestions
14:29:48 [veronica]
jeff: we thought about that
14:30:13 [veronica]
... problem is unless we get hundresd of people answering the survey, we won't have critical mass
14:30:29 [veronica]
s/hundresd/hundreds
14:30:31 [ahaller2]
+1 for other suggestions
14:31:00 [veronica]
tim: how using some kind of tags?
14:31:19 [veronica]
jeff: yes, that's a technological solution
14:31:48 [veronica]
... if I'm the first one in everyone sees my ideas, but if I'm the last one, no sees my ideas
14:32:32 [veronica]
jeff: at the moment I'm just trying to get this off the ground
14:32:42 [veronica]
tim: accepted
14:32:44 [jeff]
q?
14:32:55 [veronica]
jeff: so far lots of great comments
14:33:14 [veronica]
brianK: there was a proposal, not the best but not bad
14:33:20 [veronica]
... general consensus
14:33:29 [veronica]
... not very clear, wishy washy
14:33:42 [veronica]
... so that's where we are right now?
14:33:54 [veronica]
jeff: which proposal?
14:33:56 [michiell]
I've just sent an alternative introduction to the mailing list.
14:34:07 [michiell]
I think the 100 dollar should be part of the questionnaire
14:34:13 [veronica]
brian: basically an electoral proposal, $100 annual fee
14:34:53 [veronica]
jeff: that proposal - wanting more, less - was rejected by AC
14:35:06 [veronica]
briank: that's what I meant
14:35:13 [veronica]
... now soul searching what this should be
14:35:26 [veronica]
... sent some comments in email
14:36:19 [veronica]
... wondering are we definitely saying this has to be a membership program that requires a fee?
14:36:22 [michiell]
+Q
14:36:24 [veronica]
... is this the starting point?
14:36:37 [veronica]
jeff: this goes back to our first task force meeting
14:36:59 [jeff]
https://www.w3.org/wiki/Webizen#Success_criteria
14:37:13 [veronica]
... at beginning of our task force mtg, we populated the wiki
14:37:29 [veronica]
... one of success criteria was don't lose money
14:37:42 [michiell]
For me 'don't loose money' is not the main criterium
14:38:02 [veronica]
... nice that you're doing this, but u could end up with program with lots of people requiring some support
14:38:22 [veronica]
... could be it $50, $100; that's also reason for survey
14:38:28 [veronica]
... just a starting point
14:38:42 [veronica]
... so that's where we're at now
14:39:07 [veronica]
... doesn't have to be W3C creating grassroots as [brian] mentioned in his posts
14:39:33 [veronica]
tim: ques 9, whether someone in affluent country supporting the cost
14:40:02 [veronica]
... developing countries lower cost?
14:40:23 [veronica]
jeff: in prologue, we recognize there could be need for dif levels of fees
14:40:33 [veronica]
tim: other question about students
14:41:00 [veronica]
... some can afford the fee; and the internet society?
14:41:12 [Zakim]
-koalie
14:41:34 [veronica]
jeff: this is already a heavy weight survey
14:41:47 [veronica]
... don't want to complicate it more
14:42:08 [veronica]
brian: wish we had a more passive way to collect this information
14:42:15 [michiell]
+Q
14:42:25 [veronica]
... barrier to entry to particpate in the survey
14:42:31 [jeff]
ack mich
14:42:45 [ahaller2]
s/particpate/participate
14:42:46 [veronica]
michel: i sent alternative introduction in email
14:43:12 [ahaller2]
+1 for open end question!
14:43:24 [veronica]
... we can ask some people if $100 is ok, but it's a random statement
14:44:06 [veronica]
... someone mentioned internet society
14:44:27 [veronica]
... to have everyone pay may not be necessary
14:45:10 [veronica]
... if u price the wrong way, nobody will join
14:45:30 [veronica]
jeff: question is how do we determine what is the median of what people would pay
14:45:44 [bkardell_]
Q+
14:45:45 [veronica]
... buyer wants to spend as little as possible
14:46:21 [veronica]
michiell: if they want to support the open web, what are you willing to donate to be involved
14:46:41 [veronica]
... people donate $ because they care and want to see things happen
14:47:02 [veronica]
jeff: we currently have the supporters program but no one is contributing
14:47:16 [veronica]
... so I agree token is probably wrong word
14:47:23 [veronica]
... nor accessible
14:47:31 [veronica]
... what is the right word?
14:47:34 [veronica]
tim: sustainable?
14:47:48 [veronica]
brian: realistic?
14:47:53 [veronica]
jeff: how about basic fee?
14:48:16 [ahaller2]
Armin: what about leaving the word out completely
14:48:33 [veronica]
jeff: let's go with 'basic' fee vs token
14:48:33 [ahaller2]
... just fee
14:49:10 [veronica]
tim: if asking what they'll pay, need to know where they're from, and their local currency
14:49:15 [michiell]
45 euro
14:49:17 [mediaprophet]
$150 AUD
14:49:19 [mediaprophet]
~
14:49:22 [ahaller2]
$120
14:49:23 [jeff]
$1000
14:49:24 [virginie]
50 euros
14:49:27 [veronica]
jeff: could people type here what they'd be willing to pay for this?
14:49:32 [olleo]
50 euros
14:49:37 [bkardell_]
Unanswerable, depends what it is :-)
14:49:51 [mediaprophet]
if i was really poor - ~75 - but it’s less than the cost of a certificate...
14:50:03 [veronica]
5,000,000 jpy
14:50:31 [veronica]
jeff: okay, interesting
14:50:48 [veronica]
tim: still important is culture
14:50:57 [veronica]
... not as commercial as other fields?
14:51:27 [veronica]
... engagement protocal sets foundation for how this happens
14:51:30 [veronica]
jeff: good point
14:51:51 [veronica]
... after the AC rejected the June proposal, I was skeptical
14:52:06 [veronica]
... how to make this to not lose money, make it acceptable to AC
14:52:11 [veronica]
... culture is important
14:52:29 [veronica]
... winning proposal could be what's in brian's blog post
14:52:48 [ahaller2]
q+
14:53:01 [veronica]
... for now, let's go ahead with the survey
14:53:06 [virginie]
q? on something related to developer relation community history in W3C
14:53:06 [michiell]
We can ask the question about money and let them answer in local currency
14:53:10 [mediaprophet]
is this the proposal discussed? https://medium.com/@briankardell/web-standards-we-want-part-i-chapters-ca71985bf914
14:53:21 [veronica]
... if this one dies then we may try a third time
14:53:22 [virginie]
q+ on something related to developer relation community history in W3C
14:53:38 [veronica]
tim: I think this it incredily important work and i support this
14:53:54 [veronica]
s/incredily/incredibly
14:54:14 [veronica]
brian: I would like to make an observation
14:54:27 [veronica]
... perhaps a radical sugestion
14:54:47 [veronica]
... while there are lots of interesting points, whatever level of pricing
14:55:07 [veronica]
... we don't know what this will look like
14:55:22 [veronica]
... I feel like that's one of the things AC will reject
14:55:43 [veronica]
... long survey might not get us the information
14:56:26 [veronica]
... what about couple of concrete proposals and then survey which one on thos proposals do you like
14:56:28 [virginie]
q-
14:56:29 [michiell]
Two or three scenario's - which one is the webizen you want
14:56:35 [jeff]
ack bk
14:56:38 [veronica]
... too much choice is overwhelming
14:57:10 [veronica]
... if you tell people $100, might complain but they pay and they'll be happy
14:57:17 [virginie]
I feel this idea to offer 3 nice stories is a good suggestion
14:57:24 [veronica]
... can we narrow it down more?
14:57:34 [veronica]
jeff: so Brian, this may surprise you
14:57:48 [veronica]
... I believe I've done this
14:58:13 [veronica]
... look at ques 3, I anticipate most would select 'it would depend'
14:58:16 [virginie]
I think that what bk is expecting is complete package description
14:58:53 [veronica]
... when we correlate the information, it will give us the options
14:59:28 [veronica]
brian: logging into survey, there's many more questions
15:00:15 [virginie]
q+
15:00:48 [jeff]
ack aha
15:00:57 [veronica]
armin: comment on payment
15:01:12 [veronica]
... for the cost, stress if program is @@ will make participation stronger
15:01:35 [veronica]
... if people are joining as indiv in free program, get more
15:02:03 [veronica]
... agree with brian's freeform survey
15:02:31 [veronica]
... get comments, ability to express opinions
15:02:57 [veronica]
jeff: agree, we should add question at end for their own perspective on this program
15:02:58 [veronica]
... ideas you may have
15:03:05 [jeff]
ack vir
15:03:12 [veronica]
virginie: wanted to highlight brian's suggestion
15:03:22 [veronica]
... could be complementary to survey
15:03:34 [veronica]
... could be additional question
15:03:42 [veronica]
... which one of 3 options would you prefer
15:03:46 [ahaller2]
s/stress if program is @@/stress that even if the program is free it
15:03:52 [veronica]
... could be redundant but could be interesting
15:04:09 [veronica]
... maybe classifying 3 scenarios
15:04:44 [veronica]
... e.g.25 equival dollars, u get ...
15:04:50 [michiell]
And you can actually implement more than one in the end
15:05:00 [veronica]
... happy to work on some words for these scenarios
15:05:30 [veronica]
jeff: sure, but I don't know if we'll get consensus of the right scenarios quickly
15:05:43 [veronica]
tim: who cares about the merchandising?
15:06:03 [michiell]
I don't think there is a W3C shop?
15:06:28 [veronica]
... are people going to join just to be part of W3C versus joining for merchandise
15:07:00 [veronica]
... social media, at the moment, there are 125 followers
15:07:21 [veronica]
... gauge how many people are attaching to the concept?
15:07:41 [veronica]
... 120 followers on twitter tag
15:08:05 [veronica]
jeff: I don't know what people are going to be interested in
15:08:12 [michiell]
+Q
15:08:20 [veronica]
... I'd rather ask them rather than assume
15:08:32 [veronica]
tim: who's working on promotion on twitter?
15:08:46 [veronica]
jeff: coralie is handling this. contact her.
15:08:56 [jeff]
ack mich
15:09:09 [veronica]
michiell: i think merchandise important; why not separate this
15:09:22 [veronica]
... a merchandise shop
15:09:25 [veronica]
jeff: might be possible
15:10:18 [veronica]
michiell: some people want to be involved, some just want merchandise
15:10:44 [veronica]
jeff: thanks everyone for input. some changes may be small but are important
15:11:10 [veronica]
... translating is huge idea and will take a little time
15:11:27 [veronica]
... I'll schedule call week of 29 Sep
15:11:49 [veronica]
... by then we'll see results
15:12:01 [veronica]
... based on partic and results, we'll see if we have a program of if we're back to square 1
15:12:22 [veronica]
... please tell everyone to answer the survey!
15:12:27 [virginie]
thanks !
15:12:28 [Zakim]
-Brian_Kardell
15:12:29 [veronica]
... thanks everyone for your participation today!
15:12:30 [Zakim]
-Jeff
15:12:31 [ahaller2]
bye
15:12:31 [olleo]
olleo has left #webizen
15:12:34 [Zakim]
-virginie
15:12:35 [Zakim]
-Tim_Holborn
15:12:35 [Zakim]
-Michiel_Leenaars
15:12:36 [Zakim]
-Armin_Haller
15:12:37 [veronica]
rrsagent, draft minutes
15:12:37 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/09/05-webizen-minutes.html veronica
15:12:43 [Zakim]
-Veronica
15:12:46 [Zakim]
-Olle_Olsson
15:12:47 [Zakim]
Team_JEFF(WEBIZ)10:00AM has ended
15:12:47 [Zakim]
Attendees were [IPcaller], Veronica, koalie, Tim_Holborn, +31.20.800.aaaa, Jeff, Michiel_Leenaars, +1.412.235.aabb, Brian_Kardell, Armin_Haller, Olle_Olsson, +33.4.42.36.aacc,
15:12:47 [Zakim]
... virginie
15:55:23 [deiu]
deiu has joined #webizen
18:12:25 [koalie]
RRSagent, make minutes
18:12:25 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/09/05-webizen-minutes.html koalie
18:32:44 [koalie]
RRSAgent, bye
18:32:58 [koalie]
Zakim, bye
18:32:58 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #webizen
18:47:00 [koalie]
RRSAgent, make logs public
19:07:53 [veronica]
veronica has left #webizen
19:20:13 [deiu_]
deiu_ has joined #webizen
22:19:12 [koalie]
RRSAgent, bye
22:19:12 [RRSAgent]
I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2014/09/05-webizen-actions.rdf :
22:19:12 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Coralie to get survey, once final, translated in W3C Offices languages [1]
22:19:12 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/09/05-webizen-irc#T14-23-47