13:41:51 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #webizen
13:41:51 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/09/05-webizen-irc
13:41:55 <koalie> Zakim, this will be webiz
13:41:55 <Zakim> ok, koalie; I see Team_JEFF(WEBIZ)10:00AM scheduled to start in 19 minutes
13:42:07 <koalie> agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webizen/2014Sep/0006.html
13:42:31 <koalie> -> http://www.w3.org/2014/08/20-webizen-minutes.html Previous (2014-08-20)
13:42:37 <koalie> meeting: Webizen Task Force teleconference
13:42:41 <koalie> chair: JeffJaffe
13:43:59 <mediaprophet> zakim@voip.w3.org seems down.
13:44:03 <mediaprophet> i’ll call in using skype.
13:44:16 <koalie> regrets: AnnBassetti, GeorgRehm
13:44:55 <koalie> agenda+ finalize the market survey
13:45:17 <koalie> agenda+ discuss representation
13:45:41 <koalie> agenda+ how to present "representation" in the survey
13:55:24 <Zakim> Team_JEFF(WEBIZ)10:00AM has now started
13:55:27 <Zakim> Team_JEFF(WEBIZ)10:00AM has ended
13:55:28 <Zakim> Attendees were
13:55:48 <koalie> mediaprophet, voip doesn't work for me either
13:55:58 <Zakim> Team_JEFF(WEBIZ)10:00AM has now started
13:56:05 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
13:56:14 <mediaprophet> I’ve just dialed in...
13:56:21 <mediaprophet> skype
13:56:21 <koalie> ah, great!
13:56:28 <mediaprophet> :)
13:56:31 <koalie> hang on while others join, please
13:56:38 <mediaprophet> np
13:57:19 <ahaller2> ahaller2 has joined #webizen
13:57:52 <Zakim> +Veronica
13:58:04 <veronica> hi all
13:58:39 <koalie> scribenick: koalie
13:59:22 <Zakim> +koalie
13:59:58 <koalie> Zakim, [ is Tim_Holborn
13:59:58 <Zakim> +Tim_Holborn; got it
14:00:12 <mediaprophet> :)
14:01:13 <Zakim> + +31.20.800.aaaa
14:01:16 <jeff> jeff has joined #webizen
14:01:28 <Zakim> +Jeff
14:01:57 <Zakim> +??P12
14:02:24 <koalie> Zakim, aaaa is Michiel_Leenaars
14:02:24 <Zakim> +Michiel_Leenaars; got it
14:02:32 <jeff> zakim, who is on the phone?
14:02:32 <Zakim> On the phone I see Tim_Holborn, Veronica, koalie, Michiel_Leenaars, Jeff, ??P12
14:02:43 <Zakim> + +1.412.235.aabb
14:03:01 <koalie> Zakim, aabb is Brian_Kardell
14:03:01 <Zakim> +Brian_Kardell; got it
14:03:03 <Zakim> +??P22
14:03:17 <koalie> Zakim, ??P22 Armin_Haller
14:03:17 <Zakim> I don't understand '??P22 Armin_Haller', koalie
14:03:25 <olleo> olleo has joined #webizen
14:03:29 <koalie> Zakim, ??P22 is Armin_Haller
14:03:29 <Zakim> +Armin_Haller; got it
14:03:55 <koalie> Zakim, ??P2 is Olle_Olsson
14:03:55 <Zakim> I already had ??P2 as Bim, koalie
14:04:05 <koalie> Zakim, ??P12 is Olle_Olsson
14:04:05 <Zakim> +Olle_Olsson; got it
14:04:34 <koalie> Jeff: 3rd or 4th call + extensive discusions on mailing list
14:04:52 <koalie> ... we had a task force in the spring, presented proposal to the Advisory Committee, they rejected it
14:05:04 <koalie> ... our focus since reboot has been on a survey
14:05:34 <koalie> ... We made good progress today is the final review of the questionnaire
14:05:42 <koalie> ... intent is to send next Monday, 8-Sep
14:05:52 <koalie> ... we'll tweet it to 93.4K W3C followers
14:05:58 <koalie> ... we'll send it to the advisory committee
14:06:12 <koalie> ... we'll make public mentions of it so not only twitter users can take it
14:06:17 <koalie> ... survey will last 3 weeks
14:06:27 <koalie> ... the week of the 29-Sep we'll have another TF teleconference
14:06:38 <koalie> ... to review the results and finalise structure of the program
14:06:55 <koalie> ... to present at the next AC meeting the week of October 27
14:07:27 <koalie> ... let's go to the survey
14:07:51 <koalie> -> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/1/webizen-survey/ drft Webizen Program interest survey
14:07:57 <koalie> s/drf/draf/
14:08:10 <koalie> s/<koalie> ->/<koaliie> ->/G
14:08:46 <koalie> RRSagent, make minutes
14:08:46 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/09/05-webizen-minutes.html koalie
14:09:06 <koalie> Jeff: go to the survey, please
14:09:20 <koalie> ... we took mostly what was in the wiki
14:09:53 <koalie> Tim: It's not open yet
14:10:35 <koalie> Jeff: I prefer that people look at the instrument itself
14:10:38 <ahaller2> Armin: it does not work for me either
14:10:52 <koalie> Jeff: so you see the actual survey rather than the outline in the wiki
14:12:19 <koalie> Tim: How are you refecting in the intro that W3C is changing as the world evolves?
14:13:45 <koalie> ... side and ideology, v-a-v HTML, also accelarating participation (cf. IGF actions)
14:14:13 <koalie> Jeff: Focus on industry is a way, Community Groups is another; we're changin in so many ways, I didn't want to lose my audience is a too long manifesto
14:14:45 <michiell> Q+
14:14:52 <koalie> Jeff: if you have suggestions, after reading the prologue, please, send them
14:14:53 <koalie> ack m
14:14:54 <virginie> virginie has joined #webizen
14:15:11 <koalie> Michiel: I'm reading this as though it were written for a 4th grader
14:15:49 <koalie> Michiel: positioning is very abstract
14:15:57 <Zakim> + +33.4.42.36.aacc
14:15:58 <koalie> ... it wouldn't appeal
14:16:08 <virginie> zakim, aacc is me
14:16:08 <Zakim> +virginie; got it
14:16:27 <koalie> Jeff: Currently, what we're trying to do with that, if you look at the bottom of the prologue, there is a link to the goals of the program which are a bit more specific
14:16:44 <virginie> zakim, who is on the phone ?
14:16:44 <Zakim> On the phone I see Tim_Holborn, Veronica, koalie, Michiel_Leenaars, Jeff, Olle_Olsson, Brian_Kardell, Armin_Haller, virginie
14:16:44 <koalie> ... to your point, I'm not an expert in either writing or creating surveys
14:16:54 <koalie> ... So I'd love to get more input from people
14:16:57 <koalie> [Virginie joins]
14:17:08 <bkardell_> bkardell_ has joined #webizen
14:17:19 <koalie> Jeff: We could provide in the survey a link to a longer description
14:17:57 <koalie> Michiel: Can we skip the questions if you don't reply yes?
14:18:06 <koalie> Jeff: No, unfortunately, that is a limitation of the instrument
14:18:33 <koalie> Tim: @@@
14:18:34 <bkardell_> +?
14:18:52 <koalie> Jim: That's my intention, it's not overly explicit
14:19:03 <koalie> s/Jim/Jeff:/
14:19:36 <koalie> Jeff: In question 5, one of the answers, the 2nd, that's a somewhat weak example which reflects what you're requesting
14:19:39 <mediaprophet> question was about whether the introduction of the program, provides a review function that allows it to be reviewed, refined, and improved once the program has developed (and obtains take-up, etc.)
14:19:58 <koalie> Jeff: I don't know if there is a place where we should make this stronger in the wiki or survey
14:20:04 <koalie> ... to show we're on the same page
14:20:13 <koalie> Tim: how many languages is this survey being offered in
14:21:00 <koalie> Coralie: English; I could provide French translation
14:21:06 <michiell> I think all the yes/no questions can go away
14:21:12 <koalie> ... but then, why not other languages? how long would that delay opening the survey?
14:21:18 <koalie> Tim: It's worth thinking about it
14:21:21 <koalie> Jeff: Great idea
14:21:46 <koalie> ... Coralie how long would it take?
14:21:50 <koalie> Coralie: Probably a day
14:21:58 <michiell> For instance question 8 could be deleted if question 9 has a option 'no tangible benefits' at the end
14:22:04 <michiell> That would reduce the amount of questions
14:22:08 <koalie> Jeff: I'm happy to delay this a day or two to give the option for people to fill out the survey in their own language
14:22:16 <koalie> q+
14:22:28 <koalie> JEff: we have about 20 languages
14:22:30 <virginie> could help Koalie reading french translation, once done
14:22:30 <koalie> ack me
14:23:13 <koalie> Coralie: note: English is the work language of the W3C
14:23:24 <koalie> Tim: there is a demand, still
14:23:46 <mediaprophet> +1
14:23:47 <koalie> ACTION: Coralie to get survey, once final, translated in W3C Offices languages
14:23:54 <koalie> Jeff: there is nothing technical in the survey
14:24:19 <koalie> ... Non-technical survey might benefit from being multi-lingual
14:24:32 <mediaprophet> +1
14:24:40 <koalie> ... it also signals to the world that we're taking extra steps to be inclusive
14:24:54 <virginie> q+
14:24:55 <koalie> Jeff: a couple-day delay is fine
14:25:00 <koalie> ack v
14:25:00 <jeff> ack vir
14:25:09 <ahaller2> q+
14:25:16 <koalie> Virginie: I wanted to check when the finalization of the survey takes place, when is it frozen?
14:25:29 <koalie> Jeff: We plan to complete and freeze the survey in today's meeting
14:25:38 <koalie> ... and run survey from sep 8-29
14:25:44 <bkardell_> +q
14:25:47 <koalie> ... with translations, this slips
14:25:49 <koalie> ack ah
14:26:12 <koalie> scribenick: veronica
14:26:32 <veronica> tim: I have a question about #2
14:26:45 <jeff> s/2/7/
14:26:58 <veronica> .. unique member id #, maybe extend with uri or url
14:27:11 <veronica> ... could be more clear for people
14:27:26 <jeff> s/tim/armin/
14:27:55 <veronica> jeff: ques 7 are radio buttons
14:28:11 <veronica> ... and you will be able to type multiple
14:28:23 <veronica> ... there's  bug with ques 7
14:28:35 <ahaller2> Armin: Listing your profile on the W3C website and Name listed on our Supporters page (with # years) seem to be similar for people. Maybe we can combine them to one answer.
14:28:39 <veronica> ... should be check boxes
14:28:55 <veronica> koalie: I'll fix this
14:29:00 <veronica> jeff: and ques 9
14:29:12 <veronica> ... this is a fantastic beta team!
14:29:14 <jeff> ack bk
14:29:43 <veronica> tim: with 9, maybe keep it simple, way to provide suggestions
14:29:48 <veronica> jeff: we thought about that
14:30:13 <veronica> ... problem is unless we get hundresd of people answering the survey, we won't have critical mass
14:30:29 <veronica> s/hundresd/hundreds
14:30:31 <ahaller2> +1 for other suggestions
14:31:00 <veronica> tim: how using some kind of tags?
14:31:19 <veronica> jeff: yes, that's a technological solution
14:31:48 <veronica> ... if I'm the first one in everyone sees my ideas, but if I'm the last one, no sees my ideas
14:32:32 <veronica> jeff: at the moment I'm just trying to get this off the ground
14:32:42 <veronica> tim: accepted
14:32:44 <jeff> q?
14:32:55 <veronica> jeff: so far lots of great comments
14:33:14 <veronica> brianK: there was a proposal, not the best but not bad
14:33:20 <veronica> ... general consensus
14:33:29 <veronica> ... not very clear, wishy washy
14:33:42 <veronica> ... so that's where we are right now?
14:33:54 <veronica> jeff: which proposal?
14:33:56 <michiell> I've just sent an alternative introduction to the mailing list.
14:34:07 <michiell> I think the 100 dollar should be part of the questionnaire
14:34:13 <veronica> brian: basically an electoral proposal, $100 annual fee
14:34:53 <veronica> jeff: that proposal - wanting more, less - was rejected by AC
14:35:06 <veronica> briank: that's what I meant
14:35:13 <veronica> ... now soul searching what this should be
14:35:26 <veronica> ... sent some comments in email
14:36:19 <veronica> ... wondering are we definitely saying this has to be a membership program that requires a fee?
14:36:22 <michiell> +Q
14:36:24 <veronica> ... is this the starting point?
14:36:37 <veronica> jeff: this goes back to our first task force meeting
14:36:59 <jeff> https://www.w3.org/wiki/Webizen#Success_criteria
14:37:13 <veronica> ... at beginning of our task force mtg, we populated the wiki
14:37:29 <veronica> ... one of success criteria was don't lose money
14:37:42 <michiell> For me 'don't loose money' is not the main criterium
14:38:02 <veronica> ... nice that you're doing this, but u could end up with program with lots of people requiring some support
14:38:22 <veronica> ... could be it $50, $100; that's also reason for survey
14:38:28 <veronica> ... just a starting point
14:38:42 <veronica> ... so that's where we're at now
14:39:07 <veronica> ... doesn't have to be W3C creating grassroots as [brian] mentioned in his posts
14:39:33 <veronica> tim: ques 9, whether someone in affluent country supporting the cost
14:40:02 <veronica> ... developing countries lower cost?
14:40:23 <veronica> jeff: in prologue, we recognize there could be need for dif levels of fees
14:40:33 <veronica> tim: other question about students
14:41:00 <veronica> ... some can afford the fee; and the internet society?
14:41:12 <Zakim> -koalie
14:41:34 <veronica> jeff: this is already a heavy weight survey
14:41:47 <veronica> ... don't want to complicate it more
14:42:08 <veronica> brian: wish we had a more passive way to collect this information
14:42:15 <michiell> +Q
14:42:25 <veronica> ... barrier to entry to particpate in the survey
14:42:31 <jeff> ack mich
14:42:45 <ahaller2> s/particpate/participate
14:42:46 <veronica> michel: i sent alternative introduction in email
14:43:12 <ahaller2> +1 for open end question!
14:43:24 <veronica> ... we can ask some people if $100 is ok, but it's a random statement
14:44:06 <veronica> ... someone mentioned internet society
14:44:27 <veronica> ... to have everyone pay may not be necessary
14:45:10 <veronica> ... if u price the wrong way, nobody will join
14:45:30 <veronica> jeff: question is how do we determine what is the median of what people would pay
14:45:44 <bkardell_> Q+
14:45:45 <veronica> ... buyer wants to spend as little as possible
14:46:21 <veronica> michiell: if they want to support the open web, what are you willing to donate to be involved
14:46:41 <veronica> ... people donate $ because they care and want to see things happen
14:47:02 <veronica> jeff: we currently have the supporters program but no one is contributing
14:47:16 <veronica> ... so I agree token is probably wrong word
14:47:23 <veronica> ... nor accessible
14:47:31 <veronica> ... what is the right word?
14:47:34 <veronica> tim: sustainable?
14:47:48 <veronica> brian: realistic?
14:47:53 <veronica> jeff: how about basic fee?
14:48:16 <ahaller2> Armin: what about leaving the word out completely
14:48:33 <veronica> jeff: let's go with 'basic' fee vs token
14:48:33 <ahaller2> ... just fee
14:49:10 <veronica> tim: if asking what they'll pay, need to know where they're from, and their local currency
14:49:15 <michiell> 45 euro
14:49:17 <mediaprophet> $150 AUD
14:49:19 <mediaprophet> ~
14:49:22 <ahaller2> $120
14:49:23 <jeff> $1000
14:49:24 <virginie> 50 euros
14:49:27 <veronica> jeff: could people type here what they'd be willing to pay for this?
14:49:32 <olleo> 50 euros
14:49:37 <bkardell_> Unanswerable, depends what it is :-)
14:49:51 <mediaprophet> if i was really poor - ~75  - but it’s less than the cost of a certificate...
14:50:03 <veronica> 5,000,000 jpy
14:50:31 <veronica> jeff: okay, interesting
14:50:48 <veronica> tim: still important is culture
14:50:57 <veronica> ... not as commercial as other fields?
14:51:27 <veronica> ... engagement protocal sets foundation for how this happens
14:51:30 <veronica> jeff: good point
14:51:51 <veronica> ... after the AC rejected the June proposal, I was skeptical
14:52:06 <veronica> ... how to make this to not lose money, make it acceptable to AC
14:52:11 <veronica> ... culture is important
14:52:29 <veronica> ... winning proposal could be what's in brian's blog post
14:52:48 <ahaller2> q+
14:53:01 <veronica> ... for now, let's go ahead with the survey
14:53:06 <virginie> q? on something related to developer relation community history in W3C
14:53:06 <michiell> We can ask the question about money and let them answer in local currency
14:53:10 <mediaprophet> is this the proposal discussed? https://medium.com/@briankardell/web-standards-we-want-part-i-chapters-ca71985bf914
14:53:21 <veronica> ... if this one dies then we may try a third time
14:53:22 <virginie> q+ on something related to developer relation community history in W3C
14:53:38 <veronica> tim: I think this it incredily important work and i support this
14:53:54 <veronica> s/incredily/incredibly
14:54:14 <veronica> brian: I would like to make an observation
14:54:27 <veronica> ... perhaps a radical sugestion
14:54:47 <veronica> ... while there are lots of interesting points, whatever level of pricing
14:55:07 <veronica> ... we don't know what this will look like
14:55:22 <veronica> ... I feel like that's one of the things AC will reject
14:55:43 <veronica> ... long survey might not get us the information
14:56:26 <veronica> ... what about couple of concrete proposals and then survey which one on thos proposals do you like
14:56:28 <virginie> q-
14:56:29 <michiell> Two or three scenario's - which one is the webizen you want
14:56:35 <jeff> ack bk
14:56:38 <veronica> ... too much choice is overwhelming
14:57:10 <veronica> ... if you tell people $100, might complain but they pay and they'll be happy
14:57:17 <virginie> I feel this idea to offer 3 nice stories is a good suggestion
14:57:24 <veronica> ... can we narrow it down more?
14:57:34 <veronica> jeff: so Brian, this may surprise you
14:57:48 <veronica> ... I believe I've done this
14:58:13 <veronica> ... look at ques 3, I anticipate most would select 'it would depend'
14:58:16 <virginie> I think that what bk is expecting is complete package description
14:58:53 <veronica> ... when we correlate the information, it will give us the options
14:59:28 <veronica> brian: logging into survey, there's many more questions
15:00:15 <virginie> q+
15:00:48 <jeff> ack aha
15:00:57 <veronica> armin: comment on payment
15:01:12 <veronica> ... for the cost, stress if program is @@ will make participation stronger
15:01:35 <veronica> ... if people are joining as indiv in free program, get more
15:02:03 <veronica> ... agree with brian's freeform survey
15:02:31 <veronica> ... get comments, ability to express opinions
15:02:57 <veronica> jeff: agree, we should add question at end for their own perspective on this program
15:02:58 <veronica> ... ideas you may have
15:03:05 <jeff> ack vir
15:03:12 <veronica> virginie: wanted to highlight brian's suggestion
15:03:22 <veronica> ... could be complementary to survey
15:03:34 <veronica> ... could be additional question
15:03:42 <veronica> ... which one of 3 options would you prefer
15:03:46 <ahaller2> s/stress if program is @@/stress that even if the program is free it
15:03:52 <veronica> ... could be redundant but could be interesting
15:04:09 <veronica> ... maybe classifying 3 scenarios
15:04:44 <veronica> ... e.g.25 equival dollars, u get ...
15:04:50 <michiell> And you can actually implement more than one in the end
15:05:00 <veronica> ... happy to work on some words for these scenarios
15:05:30 <veronica> jeff: sure, but I don't know if we'll get consensus of the right scenarios quickly
15:05:43 <veronica> tim: who cares about the merchandising?
15:06:03 <michiell> I don't think there is a W3C shop?
15:06:28 <veronica> ... are people going to join just to be part of W3C versus joining for merchandise
15:07:00 <veronica> ... social media, at the moment, there are 125 followers
15:07:21 <veronica> ... gauge how many people are attaching to the concept?
15:07:41 <veronica> ... 120 followers on twitter tag
15:08:05 <veronica> jeff: I don't know what people are going to be interested in
15:08:12 <michiell> +Q
15:08:20 <veronica> ... I'd rather ask them rather than assume
15:08:32 <veronica> tim: who's working on promotion on twitter?
15:08:46 <veronica> jeff: coralie is handling this. contact her.
15:08:56 <jeff> ack mich
15:09:09 <veronica> michiell: i think merchandise important; why not separate this
15:09:22 <veronica> ... a merchandise shop
15:09:25 <veronica> jeff: might be possible
15:10:18 <veronica> michiell: some people want to be involved, some just want merchandise
15:10:44 <veronica> jeff: thanks everyone for input. some changes may be small but are important
15:11:10 <veronica> ... translating is huge idea and will take a little time
15:11:27 <veronica> ... I'll schedule call week of 29 Sep
15:11:49 <veronica> ... by then we'll see results
15:12:01 <veronica> ... based on partic and results, we'll see if we have a program of if we're back to square 1
15:12:22 <veronica> ... please tell everyone to answer the survey!
15:12:27 <virginie> thanks !
15:12:28 <Zakim> -Brian_Kardell
15:12:29 <veronica> ... thanks everyone for your participation today!
15:12:30 <Zakim> -Jeff
15:12:31 <ahaller2> bye
15:12:31 <olleo> olleo has left #webizen
15:12:34 <Zakim> -virginie
15:12:35 <Zakim> -Tim_Holborn
15:12:35 <Zakim> -Michiel_Leenaars
15:12:36 <Zakim> -Armin_Haller
15:12:37 <veronica> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:12:37 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/09/05-webizen-minutes.html veronica
15:12:43 <Zakim> -Veronica
15:12:46 <Zakim> -Olle_Olsson
15:12:47 <Zakim> Team_JEFF(WEBIZ)10:00AM has ended
15:12:47 <Zakim> Attendees were [IPcaller], Veronica, koalie, Tim_Holborn, +31.20.800.aaaa, Jeff, Michiel_Leenaars, +1.412.235.aabb, Brian_Kardell, Armin_Haller, Olle_Olsson, +33.4.42.36.aacc,
15:12:47 <Zakim> ... virginie
15:55:23 <deiu> deiu has joined #webizen
18:12:25 <koalie> RRSagent, make minutes
18:12:25 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/09/05-webizen-minutes.html koalie
18:32:44 <koalie> RRSAgent, bye
18:32:58 <koalie> Zakim, bye
18:32:58 <Zakim> Zakim has left #webizen
18:47:00 <koalie> RRSAgent, make logs public
19:07:53 <veronica> veronica has left #webizen
19:20:13 <deiu_> deiu_ has joined #webizen
22:19:12 <koalie> RRSAgent, bye
22:19:12 <RRSAgent> I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2014/09/05-webizen-actions.rdf :
22:19:12 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Coralie to get survey, once final, translated in W3C Offices languages [1]
22:19:12 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/09/05-webizen-irc#T14-23-47