12:56:33 RRSAgent has joined #webtv 12:56:33 logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/09/03-webtv-irc 12:56:34 Zakim has joined #webtv 12:57:45 zakim, code? 12:57:45 sorry, kaz, I don't know what conference this is 12:57:52 zakim, this will be webtv 12:57:52 ok, kaz; I see UW_WebTVIG()9:00AM scheduled to start in 3 minutes 12:57:59 zakim, call kazuyuki-617 12:57:59 ok, kaz; the call is being made 12:58:00 UW_WebTVIG()9:00AM has now started 12:58:01 +Kazuyuki 12:58:44 whyun has joined #webtv 12:59:17 Paul_Higgs has joined #webtv 13:00:03 skim13 has joined #webtv 13:00:20 yosuke has joined #webtv 13:00:22 +??P15 13:00:26 Bin_Hu has joined #webtv 13:00:37 zakim, ??P15 is me 13:00:37 +whyun; got it 13:00:54 zakim, who is noisy? 13:01:05 whyun, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: whyun (4%), Kazuyuki (4%) 13:01:07 +Paul_Higgs 13:01:18 +Bin_Hu 13:01:26 + +82.31.72.4.aaaa 13:01:26 +[IPcaller] 13:01:44 +??P16 13:01:46 zakim, ??P16 is me 13:01:46 +ddavis; got it 13:02:01 +[IPcaller.a] 13:02:16 zakim, [IPcaller.a] is me 13:02:16 +skim13; got it 13:02:54 zakim, who is here? 13:02:54 On the phone I see Kazuyuki, whyun, Paul_Higgs, Bin_Hu, +82.31.72.4.aaaa, [IPcaller], ddavis, skim13 13:02:57 On IRC I see Bin_Hu, yosuke, skim13, Paul_Higgs, whyun, Zakim, RRSAgent, ddavis, kaz, jcverdie, tobie, timeless, sangwhan, schuki, trackbot 13:03:49 +Daniel_Wester 13:04:48 zakim, who is here? 13:04:48 On the phone I see Kazuyuki, whyun, Paul_Higgs, Bin_Hu, +82.31.72.4.aaaa, [IPcaller], ddavis, skim13, Daniel_Wester 13:04:50 On IRC I see Bin_Hu, yosuke, skim13, Paul_Higgs, whyun, Zakim, RRSAgent, ddavis, kaz, jcverdie, tobie, timeless, sangwhan, schuki, trackbot 13:04:56 CyrilRa has joined #webtv 13:05:08 zakim, who is here? 13:05:08 On the phone I see Kazuyuki, whyun, Paul_Higgs, Bin_Hu, +82.31.72.4.aaaa, [IPcaller], ddavis, skim13, Daniel_Wester 13:05:11 On IRC I see CyrilRa, Bin_Hu, yosuke, skim13, Paul_Higgs, whyun, Zakim, RRSAgent, ddavis, kaz, jcverdie, tobie, timeless, sangwhan, schuki, trackbot 13:05:15 + +1.510.387.aabb 13:05:33 zakim, aabb is seth 13:05:34 +seth; got it 13:05:43 zakim, who is here? 13:05:43 On the phone I see Kazuyuki, whyun, Paul_Higgs, Bin_Hu, +82.31.72.4.aaaa, [IPcaller], ddavis, skim13, Daniel_Wester, seth 13:05:45 On IRC I see CyrilRa, Bin_Hu, yosuke, skim13, Paul_Higgs, whyun, Zakim, RRSAgent, ddavis, kaz, jcverdie, tobie, timeless, sangwhan, schuki, trackbot 13:06:11 Zakim, who is on the call? 13:06:11 On the phone I see Kazuyuki, whyun, Paul_Higgs, Bin_Hu, +82.31.72.4.aaaa, [IPcaller], ddavis, skim13, Daniel_Wester, seth 13:06:36 zakim, who is here? 13:06:36 On the phone I see Kazuyuki, whyun, Paul_Higgs, Bin_Hu, +82.31.72.4.aaaa, [IPcaller], ddavis, skim13, Daniel_Wester, seth 13:06:39 On IRC I see CyrilRa, Bin_Hu, yosuke, skim13, Paul_Higgs, whyun, Zakim, RRSAgent, ddavis, kaz, jcverdie, tobie, timeless, sangwhan, schuki, trackbot 13:06:48 wdh has joined #webtv 13:07:53 zakim, IPcaller is yosuke 13:07:53 +yosuke; got it 13:07:57 zakim, who is here? 13:07:57 On the phone I see Kazuyuki, whyun, Paul_Higgs, Bin_Hu, +82.31.72.4.aaaa, yosuke, ddavis, skim13, Daniel_Wester, seth 13:07:59 On IRC I see wdh, CyrilRa, Bin_Hu, yosuke, skim13, Paul_Higgs, whyun, Zakim, RRSAgent, ddavis, kaz, jcverdie, tobie, timeless, sangwhan, schuki, trackbot 13:08:13 +CyrilRa 13:08:18 sangwhan has left #webtv 13:08:19 -Daniel_Wester 13:08:36 zakim, who is here? 13:08:36 On the phone I see Kazuyuki, whyun, Paul_Higgs, Bin_Hu, +82.31.72.4.aaaa, yosuke, ddavis, skim13, seth, CyrilRa 13:08:38 On IRC I see wdh, CyrilRa, Bin_Hu, yosuke, skim13, Paul_Higgs, whyun, Zakim, RRSAgent, ddavis, kaz, jcverdie, tobie, timeless, schuki, trackbot 13:09:43 topic: observer from TTA 13:09:56 present+ bill 13:10:49 http://irc.w3.org/ 13:12:16 bill has joined #webtv 13:12:27 yosuke: approve his participation in this call 13:12:54 bill has joined #webtv 13:14:09 tta: TTA is a telecom tech association in Korea 13:15:30 kaz: we can invite him to this specific call based on Yosuke's approval 13:16:36 yosuke: also simple liaison with them would be good 13:16:50 DongHoon Lee, I think 13:17:04 ... so that we can invite them to the IG meeting at TPAC 2014 13:19:50 https://www.w3.org/2011/webtv/wiki/New_Ideas#Use_Cases 13:19:53 agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-web-and-tv/2014Sep/0000.html 13:20:18 i|https:|topic: Use Cases discussion| 13:20:34 topic: walked through the new use case descriptions 13:20:51 s/topic: walked/yosuke: walked/ 13:21:00 yosuke: let's begin with uc2-1 13:21:23 ... added "Gaps" section 13:21:44 topic: UC2-1 Audio Fingerprinting 13:21:49 -> https://www.w3.org/2011/webtv/wiki/New_Ideas#UC2-1_Audio_Fingerprinting UC 2-1 13:21:55 ... three gaps 13:22:21 ... no standard for syntax for Web APIs yet 13:23:02 ... next feature for accessing hash generators 13:23:10 ... hash modules for client devices 13:23:21 ... may be proprietary algorithm 13:23:43 ... we don't have I/F for that 13:23:58 ... the third one is in-browser capability to generate hashes 13:24:03 s/one/point/ 13:24:44 ... those are three potential gaps 13:24:53 ... Daniel is the submitter of this UC 13:25:06 ... so would like Daniel's opinion 13:25:44 ddavis: possibly the last one might not be implemented in browsers 13:25:51 ... the first one could be important 13:26:18 ... the second one could be related to EME 13:26:33 ... could be used for not only fingerprinting but also other services 13:26:48 heheh has joined #webtv 13:26:51 yosuke: so you mean we should concentrate on the second point? 13:27:25 zakim, mute me 13:27:25 whyun should now be muted 13:27:31 donghoon has joined #webtv 13:27:37 ddavis: I think they all have potential but maybe "Feature to access proprietary hash generators." is the one that has most potential 13:27:53 yosuke: agree 13:28:03 ddavis: It could have more impact as it looks like it could be used for other algorithms as well, not just audio fingerprinting. 13:28:07 hoyounkim has joined #webtv 13:28:09 hi everyone 13:28:45 yosuke: if we carefully design external module for EME, we can reuse it for audio fingerprinting as well 13:29:04 ... a generic API would be useful for both the use cases 13:29:14 ... helpful for Web developers 13:29:21 hi~ this is Hoyoun from TTA 13:29:22 zakim, who is speaking? 13:29:32 kaz, listening for 10 seconds I could not identify any sounds 13:29:36 zakim, who is speaking? 13:29:46 kaz, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Paul_Higgs (15%), yosuke (19%) 13:30:02 paul: @@@ 13:30:16 yosuke: you can use that module for multiple devices 13:30:23 ... not depending on concrete devices 13:30:31 s/@@@/But I think watermarking is used when listening to content in a separate device. 13:30:31 hi davis ^^ 13:30:43 -whyun 13:30:58 heheh has left #webtv 13:31:09 paul: watermarking depends on device architecture, doesn't it? 13:31:22 yosuke: could be implemented independent from devices 13:31:45 paul: my understanding was watermarking was high frequency codes 13:31:57 ... decoded by client devices 13:32:06 zakim, who is speaking? 13:32:18 kaz, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: CyrilRa (23%), Paul_Higgs (4%) 13:32:59 CyrilRa: @@@ 13:33:09 +??P13 13:33:17 s/@@@/You could also use a client-server structure for watermarking 13:33:19 zakim, ??P13 is me 13:33:19 +whyun; got it 13:33:33 zakim, mute me 13:33:33 whyun should now be muted 13:33:57 paul: evidence-based and information-based 13:34:12 yosuke: we can clarify the models of watermarking 13:34:28 ... might need help of proprietary modules 13:34:59 ... if we create some new I/F, we should not define different I/F for fingerprinting and watermarking 13:35:19 ... we should try to have generic architecture for both purposes 13:35:25 ... that's my opinion 13:35:31 ... make sense? 13:35:43 paul: could do 13:36:06 ddavis: good to hear broader range of opinions 13:37:25 yosuke: this kind of modular model could be problematic 13:37:43 ... users might be able to access the core module, e.g., EME 13:38:10 ... but this time, even if we have proprietary modules, it's just generating hash data 13:38:26 ... not directly related to the content 13:38:36 ... so this modular system could be safer 13:39:32 paul: client-server mechanism? 13:39:47 ddavis: mainly thinking of client-side browser 13:40:05 paul: we should recommend using server-side approach 13:40:25 yosuke: basically this modular-based approach is safer 13:40:56 ... but if there is anybody who cares, should we ask TAG or HTML-WG? 13:41:09 ddavis: the media tf of the HTML-WG 13:41:51 paul: thinking about something like XML HTTP Request 13:42:13 ... local microphone captures sounds for apps 13:42:24 ddavis: APIs expose modules 13:42:29 ... for external servers 13:42:48 paul: implementation could use XYZ server 13:43:09 ... presentation generated by themselves (local-side) 13:43:43 ddavis: one more HTTP Request 13:44:00 yosuke: that sounds like the first gap 13:44:05 Client-server web interface (e.g. RESTful API) for fingerprinting services, both queries and returned results. 13:44:05 ddavis: yes 13:44:35 yosuke: interesting 13:44:50 ... think we should ask actual audio fingerprinting providers for opinions 13:45:15 ... good I/F between existing fingerprinting systems and Web services 13:45:21 ddavis: good idea 13:46:02 yosuke: after this call, the co-Chars and the Team Contacts should contact actual fingerprinting providers 13:46:23 ... also should talk with related W3C groups, e.g., HTML WG Media TF 13:46:29 ... what do you think? 13:46:44 (no objections) 13:47:28 action: yosuke to work with Kaz/Daniel and contact wartermarking/fingerprinting providers 13:47:28 Created ACTION-206 - Work with kaz/daniel and contact wartermarking/fingerprinting providers [on Yosuke Funahashi - due 2014-09-10]. 13:48:01 action: yosuke to talk with related W3C groups about possible architecture for watermarking/fingerprinting 13:48:02 Created ACTION-207 - Talk with related w3c groups about possible architecture for watermarking/fingerprinting [on Yosuke Funahashi - due 2014-09-10]. 13:48:24 yosuke: maybe not only the HTMLWG but also SysApps WG 13:48:36 ddavis: maybe WebApps and Audio as well 13:48:49 kaz: maybe VBWG as well 13:48:54 yosuke: yes 13:49:32 topic: UC2-3 13:49:43 -> https://www.w3.org/2011/webtv/wiki/New_Ideas#UC2-3_Identical_Media_Stream_Synchronization UC 2-3 13:49:58 scribenick: ddavis 13:50:26 kaz: Identical stream synchronization gaps have been identified as: 13:50:38 kaz: "No ability to use existing synchronization data within a stream. " 13:50:49 kaz: "No way to accurately synchronize the presentation of media elements on multiple devices (with the same media source)." 13:51:08 kaz: We thought this use case is for related multiple streams as well (the next use case). 13:51:32 kaz: There is a lack of synchronization mechanism for multiple streams (identical or not) 13:51:43 scribenick: kaz 13:52:00 yosuke: media capability of HTML5 doesn't have accurate synchronization mechanism 13:52:09 ... we should dig into that issue 13:52:30 ... from a fundamental viewpoint 13:52:44 ... not only for TV industry but also various Web apps 13:53:20 ... during the upcoming IG f2f meeting at TPAC, we'll talk about a possible CG for media stream synchronization 13:53:44 ... already have second screen CG, but no group for media synchronization in general 13:54:21 ... at the same time, need to know synchronization mechanism outside W3C 13:55:08 ... e.g., HbbTV, Hybridcast (IPTVF-Japan), etc., have their own approach 13:55:59 ... so would suggest we talk about generating a possible CG or a TF within this IG for that topic 13:56:04 ... what do you think? 13:56:59 kaz: myself like creating a TF within this IG 13:57:09 ... but would ask all for opinions 13:57:18 yosuke: several possible solutions 13:57:24 ... a TF within this IG 13:57:27 ... a new CG 13:57:36 ... or a TF within the HTML-WG 13:57:44 ... which would be the best for us? 13:57:52 I agree - leveraging and aligning other standards is especially relevant. ALso note AllPlay. 13:57:53 ... would talk about that during TPAC 13:58:03 yosuke: would talk about that during TPAC 13:58:16 s/... would talk about that during TPAC// 13:58:44 yosuke: CG has a strong point and a weak point 13:58:59 ... we should talk about those points carefully 13:59:34 kaz: so you want to add this topic to the TPAC f2f agenda? 13:59:43 + +1.979.985.aacc 13:59:51 sorry, I have to leave now 13:59:56 -Paul_Higgs 14:00:31 yosuke: we can even ask related groups for opinions before TPAC 14:00:53 ... might be going to hold a joint session with other groups, e.g., the HTML-WG 14:01:09 ... because this is related to media element 14:01:16 Geun_Hyung_Kim has joined #webtv 14:01:27 ... any objections? 14:01:30 (no objections) 14:01:45 I 14:02:00 zakim, aacc is Geun_Hyung_Kim 14:02:00 +Geun_Hyung_Kim; got it 14:02:05 zakim, who is here? 14:02:05 On the phone I see Kazuyuki, Bin_Hu, +82.31.72.4.aaaa, yosuke, ddavis, skim13, seth, CyrilRa, whyun (muted), Geun_Hyung_Kim 14:02:08 On IRC I see Geun_Hyung_Kim, hoyounkim, donghoon, bill, CyrilRa, Bin_Hu, yosuke, skim13, whyun, Zakim, RRSAgent, ddavis, kaz, jcverdie, tobie, timeless, schuki, trackbot 14:02:11 topic: UC2-4 14:02:25 -> https://www.w3.org/2011/webtv/wiki/New_Ideas#UC2-4_Related_Media_Stream_Synchronization UC 2-4 14:03:12 yosuke: this has some unique gaps from the previous one 14:03:12 scribenick: ddavis 14:03:36 -whyun 14:03:40 kaz: This use case is related to the previous one. 14:03:52 kaz: Gaps identified so far: 14:03:53 +??P10 14:03:55 kaz: "No ability to use existing synchronization data within a stream." 14:04:01 zakim, ??P10 is me 14:04:01 +whyun; got it 14:04:05 kaz: "No way to accurately synchronize multiple media elements in a single document (with different but related media sources)." 14:04:12 kaz: "No way to deal with timestamp differences in related media streams. Note that the timestamp formats may differ in the streams, e.g. if one is 24 fps and one is 60 fps." 14:04:24 kaz: This third gap is quite unique and different to the previous use case. 14:04:28 scribenick: kaz 14:04:36 zakim, mute me 14:04:37 whyun should now be muted 14:04:44 yosuke: yes, the third one is most important 14:04:51 ... how to deal with synchronization? 14:05:14 ... would note that and move on 14:05:19 topic: UC2-5 14:05:32 -> https://www.w3.org/2011/webtv/wiki/New_Ideas#UC2-5_Triggered_Interactive_Overlay UC 2-5 14:05:52 ddavis: time stamp format question 14:06:12 yosuke: current work doesn't include this kind of capability 14:06:23 ... we can ask their interest 14:06:50 kaz: who do you mean by they? 14:07:08 yosuke: media in-band CG and TTML WG 14:07:22 hoyounkim has joined #webtv 14:07:25 ... synchronization between text track and media track 14:07:43 (@@@ will move the above later) 14:07:48 yosuke: any other questions? 14:07:55 (nothing 14:08:06 yosuke: let's move forward 14:08:35 ddavis: overlay on the top of TV and overlay itself 14:08:47 ... lot of things done 14:08:55 ... HTML dialog could be used 14:09:11 ... and this use case should focus on TV use cases 14:09:27 ... when something changes, e.g., commercial or channels 14:09:43 ... the UC talks about binding and content 14:09:51 ... no way for binding outside TV area 14:09:57 ... label element 14:10:04 ... no binding between elements 14:10:30 [[ 14:10:31 Extended media events to notify of things like section and scene changes (e.g. commercial break) and change of media source (e.g. change of channel). 14:10:31 No standard to bind video content with in-browser objects. 14:10:33 ]] 14:10:45 bin: the gap is pretty much inline with the requirement 14:10:58 ... fine tune events 14:11:08 ... for interactive overlay 14:11:14 s/fine tune/fine-tune/ 14:11:26 ... based on pre-defined schedule 14:11:42 https://www.w3.org/community/tvapi/wiki/Main_Page/Technical_Requirement#Triggered_Interactive_Overlay_Requirements 14:11:43 ... conditions of triggering events 14:12:09 s/the requirement/the requirement@@@/ 14:12:32 bin: dispatched based on different conditions 14:13:01 ... the gap analysis is inline with what we have been discussing 14:13:29 ... in-band method and out-band method 14:14:16 yosuke: sounds like it's relevant to bring this UC to the TV Control API CG 14:14:37 ... any other comments? 14:14:44 zakim, unmute me 14:14:44 (nothing) 14:14:44 whyun should no longer be muted 14:14:57 topic: UC2-6 14:15:06 -> https://www.w3.org/2011/webtv/wiki/New_Ideas#UC2-6_Clean_Audio UC 2-6 14:15:16 yosuke: clarified two gaps 14:15:25 [[ 14:15:25 No way to accurately synchronize multiple media elements in a single document (with different but related media sources). 14:15:25 No way to equalize content-protected (e.g. with EME) audio tracks. 14:15:26 ]] 14:16:10 yosuke: even service providers, e.g., Netflix and YouTube, provide clean audio in addition to ordinary track 14:16:19 ... synchronization mechanism is needed 14:16:27 ... we should work on that 14:17:23 ... we can deal with this kind of important feature (synchronization) within one new group/tf 14:17:45 ... the second one 14:18:03 ... using Web APIs, we can equalize ordinary sound track 14:18:09 s/sound/audio/ 14:18:20 ... using Web Audio APIs 14:18:52 ... but impossible for users to change the tone 14:19:12 ... we should ask the Accessibility TF guys to deal with this 14:19:22 ... also with the HTML Media TF 14:19:36 ... ask them about their opinions on the gaps 14:19:47 ... what do you think? 14:20:00 ddavis: sounds like good idea 14:20:07 ... at least good starting point 14:20:25 ... asking the a11y tf and the media tf 14:20:49 yosuke: we can talk about this topic and other accessibility issues during the f2f meeting at TPAC 14:21:15 ... maybe we can have a brief talk during our IG meeting with them (a11y tf) 14:21:43 ... also talk about how to deal with this use cases 14:21:48 kaz: during the a11y tf's meeting? 14:22:18 yosuke: accessibility tf should be going to hold their meeting 14:22:37 ... and so I think we should invite them to our IG meeting 14:22:45 s/their meeting/their meeting at TPAC/ 14:23:25 kaz: so we'll invite the A11Y TF guys to the Web&TV IG meeting on Monday 14:24:13 ... and some of the Web&TV IG participants will visit the A11Y TF on Thu/Fri 14:24:19 kaz: ok 14:24:33 ... I'll talk with Janina about the possible slots 14:24:46 yosuke: tx 14:25:26 ... on Monday we'll have a joint session with the A11Y guys during the IG meeting 14:25:43 ... the IG meeting will be held on Monday 14:25:51 ... their meeting will be held on Thu/Fri 14:26:12 ... we should announce the agenda to the IG meeting participants 14:26:18 ... the sooner, the better 14:26:21 kaz: +1 14:26:49 action: kaz to talk with Janina about the joint session slot during TPAC 2014 14:26:49 Created ACTION-208 - Talk with janina about the joint session slot during tpac 2014 [on Kazuyuki Ashimura - due 2014-09-10]. 14:27:09 yosuke: any other questions? 14:27:14 (nothing) 14:27:59 yosuke: will summarize today's discussion and update the wiki based on the discussion 14:28:12 ... also will draft agenda for TPAC f2f 14:28:25 ... will put it on the wiki 14:28:35 -CyrilRa 14:28:44 ... and share the information with the co-Chairs and the IG participants 14:29:26 ... we've started to think about the agenda, so need to finalize the possible joint meeting with the A11Y TF 14:29:46 q+ 14:29:51 topic: Next call 14:30:06 q+ to remind about second screen questionnaire 14:30:07 yosuke: in 2 weeks, i.e., Sep. 17th 14:30:25 ... will talk about TPAC agenda during the call 14:31:21 ... might be going to have an unconference style 14:32:10 kaz: the TV Control CG will use the morning sessions 14:32:23 bin: will finalize it soon 14:32:27 q? 14:32:33 ack d 14:32:33 ddavis, you wanted to remind about second screen questionnaire 14:32:59 https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/33280/secondscreen/ 14:33:00 topic: Second Screen Presentation WG 14:33:43 s|secondscreen/|secondscreen/ (Member-only)| 14:33:55 ddavis: please ask your AC Rep. to respond the questionnaire by Sep. 22 14:34:08 yosuke: any other business? 14:34:44 skim13: can we invite TTA guys to TPAC f2f? 14:34:54 (oops) 14:35:56 skim13: given we'll talk about the TPAC agenda, can we invite TTA guys to the next call on 17th as well? 14:36:07 yosuke: would like to talk with the other co-Chairs as well first 14:37:02 ... would some more information from you and TTA 14:37:55 ... we should handle this carefully 14:40:52 -seth 14:40:56 -Geun_Hyung_Kim 14:40:57 skim13 has left #webtv 14:40:57 -Bin_Hu 14:40:59 -whyun 14:41:00 -yosuke 14:41:00 -ddavis 14:41:10 -Kazuyuki 14:41:11 - +82.31.72.4.aaaa 14:41:12 -skim13 14:41:14 UW_WebTVIG()9:00AM has ended 14:41:14 Attendees were Kazuyuki, whyun, Paul_Higgs, Bin_Hu, +82.31.72.4.aaaa, ddavis, skim13, Daniel_Wester, +1.510.387.aabb, seth, yosuke, CyrilRa, +1.979.985.aacc, Geun_Hyung_Kim 14:41:18 [ adrjouned ] 14:41:46 rrsagent, make log public 14:41:52 rrsagent, draft minutes 14:41:52 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/09/03-webtv-minutes.html kaz 14:42:44 Meeting: Web&TV IG 14:42:44 rrsagent, draft minutes 14:42:44 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/09/03-webtv-minutes.html kaz 16:32:09 jcverdie has joined #webtv 16:51:48 Zakim has left #webtv 17:17:34 jcverdie has joined #webtv 18:25:12 jcverdie has joined #webtv 18:49:17 bill has joined #webtv 18:49:35 bill has joined #webtv 18:49:43 bill has left #webtv 19:14:21 jcverdie has joined #webtv 21:24:17 jcverdie has joined #webtv 23:14:46 jcverdie has joined #webtv