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00:10:53 <Travis> rrsagent, this meeting spans midnight
00:11:13 <Travis> Scribe: Travis
00:11:17 <Travis> Present+ Travis
00:11:27 <Travis> Present+ masayuki
00:11:48 <Travis> Present+ garykac
00:12:03 <Travis> Topic: Touch/Mouse soup on the web
00:12:40 <Travis> garykac: Sites basically say, if touch, use touch (don't use mouse). If mouse, don't use touch
00:12:47 <Travis> ... breaks a lot of sites.
00:13:30 <Travis> ... There was a proposal to extend mouse with some touch thing.
00:13:59 <Travis> ...Seems related to input event's "who fired you"?
00:14:33 <Travis> ...adding a boolean to input event for similar reasons could be a solution.
00:14:52 <garykac> For context: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-dom/2014JulSep/0100.html
00:16:49 <Travis> (If things are a little scattered, it's because we haven't been at this for a few weeks now... :-)
00:19:53 <garykac> For more context:
00:20:07 <garykac> We had a request recently to include the KeyboardEvent info in the input events.
00:20:19 <garykac> The user stated that they wanted the key event info available in the input event so that they could write a single handler, but the real problem was that they couldn't handle both events (key and input) because they would end up double-handling all the key events.
00:20:28 <garykac> The specific example given was distinguishing between input events from key events vs. cut/copy/paste from context menu.
00:21:16 <garykac> We could add 'isDerivedFromTouchEvent' and 'isDerivedFromKeyEvent' boolean properties to handle these cases.
00:22:07 <garykac> The context link I gave earlier was about distinguishing between 'real' mouse events and touch-generated mouse events, but the problem is very similar to our case.
00:23:06 <garykac> (edit: I said 'isDerivedFromTouchEvent' above but I meant something like 'isDerivedFromMenuEvent')
00:23:26 <Travis> In general, it looks like there is a problem of not having enough context in a generic 'input' (or even beforeinput) event.
00:23:40 <garykac> And actually Rick's proposal uses 'derivedFromXxxEvent' -- whatever we choose, we should be consistent with the naming.
00:24:12 <Travis> It seems that authors want to simplify and use only one event to handle all the types of input modalities from various sources. Naturally, having the right context will be important.
00:34:06 <masayuki> I think that the mouse event case is useful but I have no idea why it's useful for input event for distinguishing key vs. menu because just handling input event is enough. This is different from mouse vs. touch case.
00:35:06 <masayuki> And "menu" is too specific...
00:35:09 <garykac> It's not exactly the same, but the motivation was related: not wanting to double-handle events.
00:35:51 <garykac> I'm not convinced it's important to resolve this, but I wanted to bring it up.
00:40:14 <masayuki> The mosue events derived from touch device are fired for emulation. So, it could be just |MouseEvent.isEmlated|. And also WheelEvent too?
00:40:54 <Travis> Gary and I are discussing what one bug I could focus on fixing this week; the "define when it's safe to fire beforeinput" is the one we've selected.
00:42:27 <garykac> We also need to start thinking about tests and testing since that will inform the spec. We want the spec to document the order in which events fire (as much as we can).
00:45:46 <garykac> WRT 26611 (adding Zoom event), I think that we'll need to punt that into UI Events.
00:46:21 <garykac> I like it, but there are a number of small issues that will need to be resolved that will distract us from finishing the core of DOM3Events.
00:46:42 <masayuki> garykac: I agree.
00:46:57 <Travis> I have no specific agenda for anything else to discuss as a group. Is there anything else (masayuki) that we should spend our time on today?
00:48:34 <Travis> Going once?
00:48:35 <garykac> Meet again in 2 weeks?
00:48:53 <garykac> At that time, we should go through the bugs and review our status.
00:48:54 <masayuki> No. But let me tell about that I'm wating bug 24739, bug 26141 and bug 26218 for updating our D3E implementation.
00:48:59 <Travis> Works for me; should give me some time to address that D3E bug.
00:50:25 <garykac> OK. We'll look at those first thing next time.  I'll try to look them over between now and then.
00:50:27 <garykac> Thansk!
00:50:38 <garykac> s/Thansk/Thanks/
00:50:51 <Travis> See you all in two weeks!
00:50:59 <masayuki> See you!
00:51:46 <Travis> rrsagent, make the minutes
00:51:46 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/09/03-webapps-minutes.html Travis
00:51:52 <Travis> rrsagent, make logs public
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11:10:31 <ArtB> RRSAgent, bye
11:10:31 <RRSAgent> I see no action items