11:05:00 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #csvw
11:05:00 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/09/03-csvw-irc
11:05:02 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
11:05:02 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #csvw
11:05:04 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be CSVW
11:05:04 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see DATA_CSVWG()8:00AM scheduled to start in 55 minutes
11:05:05 <trackbot> Meeting: CSV on the Web Working Group Teleconference
11:05:05 <trackbot> Date: 03 September 2014
11:05:15 <ivan> Chair: DanBri
11:05:40 <ivan> Agenda: https://www.w3.org/2013/csvw/wiki/Meeting_Agenda_2014-09-03
11:05:47 <ivan> ivan has changed the topic to: meeting agenda: https://www.w3.org/2013/csvw/wiki/Meeting_Agenda_2014-09-03
11:48:40 <circ-user-eWYf2> circ-user-eWYf2 has joined #csvw
11:49:08 <danbri> hi Ivan. Couldn't connect with Adium, trying a Chrome addon instead.
11:49:21 <ivan> hm
11:49:31 <ivan> I have connected using textual without problems
11:50:23 <AndyS> AndyS has joined #csvw
11:51:39 <danbri> hi AndyS
11:51:59 <danbri> ivan - problem likely on my side. for now I just wanted to get online so switched clients.
11:56:45 <danbri> any scribe volunteers?
11:58:14 <waingram> waingram has joined #csvw
11:59:58 <Zakim> DATA_CSVWG()8:00AM has now started
12:00:05 <Zakim> + +1.217.333.aaaa
12:00:56 <danbri> zakim, who is on the phone?
12:00:56 <Zakim> On the phone I see +1.217.333.aaaa
12:01:25 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip
12:01:26 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made
12:01:27 <Zakim> +Ivan
12:01:56 <AndyS> zakim, code?
12:01:56 <Zakim> the conference code is 2789 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), AndyS
12:02:19 <Zakim> + +44.207.346.aabb
12:02:20 <ivan> zakim, aaaa is waingram
12:02:20 <Zakim> +waingram; got it
12:02:28 <danbri> zakim, aabb is danbri
12:02:28 <Zakim> +danbri; got it
12:02:36 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
12:02:51 <AndyS> zakim, IPCaller is me
12:02:51 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it
12:03:48 <AndyS> zakim, who is on the phone?
12:03:48 <Zakim> On the phone I see waingram, Ivan, danbri, AndyS
12:04:21 <danbri> AndyS, would you like to talk us through http://jena.staging.apache.org/documentation/csv/ and any lessons learned / plans?
12:04:50 <AndyS> Is that  better?
12:05:11 <AndyS> It's not that noisy here - the mic picks up what I can't hear!
12:05:29 <danbri> :)
12:05:30 <danbri> supersenses
12:05:41 <danbri> Agenda: https://www.w3.org/2013/csvw/wiki/Meeting_Agenda_2014-09-03
12:05:45 <AndyS> ... so remember, I didn't say it , and it wasn't me
12:06:09 <AndyS> Cheltenham is not far from here.
12:06:15 <danbri> Ivan's template doc. https://www.w3.org/2013/csvw/wiki/CSVTemplating_status
12:06:51 <danbri> zakim, who is on the phone?
12:06:51 <Zakim> On the phone I see waingram, Ivan, danbri, AndyS
12:06:58 <danbri> regrets: Jeni, Yakov
12:07:28 <danbri> ivan: Uni. Illinois, introduces new member
12:07:34 <danbri> (can you type name so i don't spell wrong!)
12:07:58 <AndyS> Hi waingram (Bill Ingram)
12:08:00 <danbri> Bill Ingram, U Illinois. Repository developer, manage a team of devs on institutional repo, archives, ...
12:08:35 <danbri> experience w/ a lot of CSV via research datasets, things attached to electronic theses, dissertations, RDF a lot, XML etc.
12:08:41 <danbri> q+ to ask about use cases
12:08:54 <ivan> ack danbri
12:08:54 <Zakim> danbri, you wanted to ask about use cases
12:09:35 <danbri> danbri: anything missing / interesting in use cases doc?
12:09:52 <danbri> bill: did look, it's quite extensive; happy to contrib, but not sure if it's necessary, is probably covered
12:10:49 <danbri> ivan: please look if the various features that would be in another use case are already covered. If already addressed, we're probably ok
12:11:12 <danbri> bill: will keep in mind. i saw something around science data that seemed close, will look.
12:11:49 <danbri> dan: can we take a start w/ https://www.w3.org/2013/csvw/wiki/CSVTemplating_status
12:11:59 <danbri> ivan: looked at state of things yesterday
12:12:05 <danbri> ... latest status I could find
12:13:04 <danbri> in addition, from JeniT: https://github.com/w3c/csvw/tree/testing-variations/examples/tests/scenarios/uc-4
12:13:29 <danbri> ivan: summarizing, ... we are heading towards a structure that's inspired by template systems like Mustache, used as an example here, ...
12:13:51 <danbri> with hope that we could have one system/structure defined that can be used essentially in an unchanged manner for the various output syntaxes that we have
12:14:01 <danbri> ... i.e. RDF's various serializations + JSON(-LD), XML.
12:14:19 <danbri> that's the hope. all the examples here are in Turtle. Could've used JSON but Turtle was in email.
12:14:23 <danbri> ... this is one thing.
12:14:43 <danbri> ivan: the very simple, basic approach that may cover several use cases, is to have a simple template like Mustache
12:14:57 <danbri> where the template patterns are keys that identify the names of columns, and the template itself
12:15:09 <danbri> ... in jeremy's example, is a file that can be referrred to from the metdata file
12:15:17 <danbri> in some cases could be inline even in the metadata
12:15:20 <danbri> won't copy in from the page
12:15:38 <danbri> that's probably where things are very simple and quite useful
12:15:55 <danbri> ... where we got into complications, world is not that simple, we need some sort of "variable" structure, ...
12:16:10 <danbri> ... if exists, can be used for templating
12:16:20 <danbri> e.g. each col you can have a number of variables, defined by a regex, named
12:16:43 <danbri> ... what it means is that if i'm working on a specific cell in a col, then i check the regex, if it matches, then the corresponding variable is considered to be true/replaceable
12:16:54 <danbri> .. in the template itself i could then use the cell value for an output
12:16:57 <danbri> (that's the 2nd example)
12:17:29 <danbri> but likely we'll want conditionals of some sort
12:17:35 <danbri> if-then-else
12:17:46 <danbri> so you'll need a way to use the variables as a kind of branching mechanism
12:17:50 <danbri> there were 2 approaches to that
12:18:10 <danbri> jeremy had a structure that he put into the metadata, ... which essentially said that depending on a variable being true, ... acceptable, ...
12:18:23 <danbri> ...then he browsed into separate template files, that's how if/then/else was created
12:18:35 <danbri> once you have the template it becomes very mechanical to generate the output
12:19:09 <danbri> ... some risk of combinatorial explosiion of template parts /c omonents
12:19:16 <danbri> so i went back at took at look at mustache's mechanism
12:19:29 <danbri> trying to use here a template that uses # if ... and a variable name
12:20:12 <danbri> ivan: this was more or less where we got to in the discussion
12:20:17 <danbri> some things weren't settled
12:20:27 <danbri> i tried to list the points of dissagreement, issues etc.
12:20:33 <danbri> unclear what to do with unmatched templates
12:20:37 <danbri> simplest is that nothing happens.
12:21:24 <danbri> [...]
12:22:02 <danbri> ivan: ... must be a place where i can put global templates; things that appear only once. Typical case is that if I want to generate a prefix statement in Turtle. Templates should have global values taken only once.
12:22:33 <danbri> ... i've put there as a separate issue, ... a repeat structure, ... anything outside that can be either not be a template or ref to global metadata keys
12:22:53 <danbri> Ivan: also Datatypes
12:23:02 <danbri> ... in metadata doc, we have a number of datatypes for a cell
12:23:10 <danbri> can define them per column, per row, per cell, ...
12:23:19 <danbri> but those datatypes may not have an equiv in all the output systems
12:23:28 <danbri> e.g. pure json, this doesn't have a direct match
12:23:38 <danbri> in rdf or xml they're close due to xml datatypes
12:24:17 <danbri> ivan: also the template syntax itself. needs some care. e.g. '{{', ... does this work for Turtle? XML? probably. For JSON? ugh etc.
12:24:27 <danbri> ... can this be parameterised?
12:24:42 <danbri> ivan: sure there are other issues here. that's where I got yesterday.
12:24:47 <AndyS> {{ is impossible JSON so that's OK?
12:26:26 <danbri> Dan ask's AndyS for status / perspective
12:26:37 <danbri> AndyS: Ivan didn't say anything much I disagree with. Re templates, ...
12:26:50 <danbri> ...they might be developed by different parties, may be use cases where diff templates make sense
12:27:03 <danbri> there are technical things that can be done around sharing/embedding/nesting
12:27:11 <danbri> alternative is one template with lots of conditionals
12:27:17 <danbri> which is known to be problematic
12:27:25 <AndyS> "Liquid" - a different templating system - not/less HTML content focused - http://docs.shopify.com/themes/liquid-documentation/basics. Used by jekyll sitegenerator (and github.io).
12:27:48 <danbri> AndyS: I'd also emphasise, that we need to be careful ... re Mustache etc, that if W3C is to produce a templating language within the standards world, ...
12:28:14 <danbri> then I presume we would need to specify the templating language ourselves, even if it is a close match to external work, to give a standards process and control
12:28:22 <danbri> ... that might be an issue from w3c point of view
12:28:34 <DavideCeolin> DavideCeolin has joined #csvw
12:28:47 <danbri> AndyS: also reporting, Google Summer of Code student work
12:28:53 <danbri> we got a great student
12:28:55 <danbri> (Jena?)
12:29:19 <ivan> q+
12:29:38 <danbri> ... will work on basis for potential w3c work, csv to rdf mappings
12:29:53 <danbri> ... used a mechanistic mapping for now, as there was no proposal ready to implement
12:30:18 <Zakim> +??P11
12:30:29 <DavideCeolin> zakim, ??P11 is me
12:30:29 <Zakim> +DavideCeolin; got it
12:30:59 <danbri> from JeniT: https://github.com/w3c/csvw/tree/testing-variations/examples/tests/scenarios/uc-4
12:31:00 <DavideCeolin> hi, sorry for being late
12:31:25 <danbri> https://github.com/w3c/csvw/tree/testing-variations/examples/tests/scenarios/uc-4/attempts/attempt-1
12:33:38 <danbri> danbri: a common repo structure sohuld let us try out different design candidates
12:33:56 <danbri> ivan: responding to AndyS; re multiple templates on same file, ... jeremy's clever trick, ... ref to the template is in the metadata
12:33:58 <danbri> [train noises]
12:34:00 <danbri> [steam train!]
12:34:24 <danbri> ivan: part of the metadata for a specific file, the way the model works, ... you can have metadata from diff sources, you aggregate those to get the final metadata
12:34:40 <danbri> ... if someone wants his or her own, can use links/refs [...]
12:34:45 <danbri> (handleable)
12:35:20 <danbri> ivan: AndyS, you're absolutely right, in that we can't make standard ref to the Mustache project as it may change
12:35:28 <danbri> ... so we need to specify it ourself in full detail
12:35:46 <danbri> ... to be v clear about it and address high-level question: i've written down what the template language approach would mean
12:36:07 <danbri> ... and what we've realised here after all the discussion, is that we cannot get away with something super-simple because we hit if-then-else requirements very early
12:36:15 <danbri> ... AndyS emphasised this very early on.
12:36:38 <danbri> Ivan: I'm not saying personally that the template mechanism, ... that this is the ideal one, ... nor that this is THE solution that we must follow, ...
12:37:04 <ivan> https://github.com/w3c/csvw/tree/rdfconversion-ivan
12:37:11 <danbri> ... maybe by exploring this route, we might need to step back from it. A while back I tried a purely mechanistic way, ... using CSV + metadata (link above here)
12:37:26 <danbri> ... this essentially writes down the mechanical generation of RDF, same could be used for others
12:37:40 <danbri> we could say that this is what we define, where we can attach an XSLT script, RDF sparql transform, etc
12:37:47 <danbri> ... that this might be as far as we go
12:38:19 <danbri> ... we have explored templating langs so far, but we need to consider possibility that we back off, and use some simple structure + exploit existing tools
12:38:25 <danbri> ... I'd be perfectly happy with that as well
12:39:14 <danbri> AndyS: reiterating a point I've made before. By involving xslt, sparql, js, ... etc. We would disenfranchise all those people who don't use those tool chains.
12:39:31 <danbri> q
12:39:34 <danbri> q+
12:40:06 <danbri> ivan: ii'm not saying you must use XSLT, but that we could/should/might provide a way to indicate XSLT
12:40:12 <ivan> ack danbri
12:41:38 <danbri> [...
12:41:39 <danbri> ]
12:41:55 <danbri> ivan: not just expressivity of lang ... but what we can reasonably define and get accepted by the community
12:42:42 <danbri> AndyS: on that Q, has there been pushback?
12:42:46 <danbri> danbri: not that i've heard
12:44:14 <danbri> AndyS: [concerned by indecision]
12:45:30 <AndyS> q+
12:45:58 <danbri> ack ivan
12:46:37 <danbri> ivan: ... "this is _a_ candidate road, but what we need feedback on is not just the lang, but whether we need a language in the 1st place"
12:46:53 <AndyS> q-
12:47:02 <danbri> ... alternative is that we define a structure and mechanistic mapping plus metadata for additional other mapping mechanisms
12:48:14 <danbri> dan: how much work to take strawman through to a Tech Report, framed as a strawman
12:48:34 <danbri> ivan: wiki page is close enough to First Public WD territory, with medium amount of work
12:48:41 <danbri> ... but i don't have a lot of time to try
12:48:57 <danbri> same q to Andy
12:49:21 <danbri> AndyS: hearing contradictory msgs, ...
12:49:29 <danbri> ... catalog of examples with lots of diff formats
12:49:39 <danbri> ... ppl like jeremy have spent quite some time on an approach that works for them
12:55:27 <AndyS> Charter?
12:56:39 <AndyS> http://www.w3.org/TR/csvw-ucr/#R-CsvToRdfTransformation -- published so expectation setting?
12:56:54 <AndyS> +JSON, +XML
12:57:34 <danbri> timecheck
12:59:57 <danbri> AndyS: [we don't normally have existential crises each week!]
13:02:32 <Zakim> -danbri
13:02:54 <danbri> sorry, kicked out of teleconf room
13:05:18 <danbri> rrsagent, pointer?
13:05:18 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2014/09/03-csvw-irc#T13-05-18
13:06:21 <Zakim> -DavideCeolin
13:06:22 <Zakim> -AndyS
13:06:22 <Zakim> -Ivan
13:06:24 <Zakim> DATA_CSVWG()8:00AM has ended
13:06:24 <Zakim> Attendees were +1.217.333.aaaa, Ivan, +44.207.346.aabb, waingram, danbri, AndyS, DavideCeolin
13:06:54 <waingram> waingram has left #csvw
13:22:57 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
13:22:57 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/09/03-csvw-minutes.html ivan
14:49:27 <Zakim> Zakim has left #csvw
14:54:23 <ivan> rrsagent, bye
14:54:23 <RRSAgent> I see no action items