18:50:35 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aapi
18:50:35 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/09/02-aapi-irc
18:50:37 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs member
18:50:37 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #aapi
18:50:39 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAI_PF
18:50:39 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see WAI_PFWG(AAPI)3:00PM scheduled to start in 10 minutes
18:50:40 <trackbot> Meeting: Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference
18:50:40 <trackbot> Date: 02 September 2014
18:51:06 <clown> chair:  Joseph_Scheuhammer
18:51:23 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/09/02-aapi-minutes.html clown
18:51:58 <clown> agenda: this
18:52:14 <clown> agenda+ ISSUE-514/ACTION-1504: (All) Review edits to aria-readonly="true" in state/property table, when inherited by gridcell (http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/implementation/aria-implementation.html#ariaReadonlyTrue).
18:52:22 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-1396: (Cynthia) MSAA+UIAExpress mapping of grid role.
18:52:29 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-980: (David) Define mappings for managed aria related states.
18:52:40 <clown> agenda+ ISSUE-671/ACTION-1492: (David) Mapping of aria-invalid should be as tokens, not as strings. (see:
18:52:56 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-1104: (Cynthia) UIA mapping for aria-describedby when referenced accessible is non-existant (see: http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/implementation/aria-implementation.html#ariaDescribedBy).
18:53:09 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-1311: (Joseph) Clarify that presentation role should preserve separation of nodes within tables/lists.
18:53:28 <joanie> argh, forgot. meeting
18:53:33 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-1372: (Cynthia) Create a test case, if there is none, to test the rowgroup role.
18:53:45 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-1373: (Cynthia) Create a test case for when aria-posinset and aria-setsize are provided explicitly on some but not all elements.
18:53:53 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-1409: (Joanie) Progress on ATK API for position, level, etc.
18:54:03 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-1445: (Cynthia) Investigate the ideal uai mapping for role presentation in tables and lists
18:54:14 <clown> agenda+ ISSUE-674/ISSUE-522/ACTION-1471: (Cynthia, Joseph) Name computation.
18:54:31 <clown> agenda+ Processing issues/actions: https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/products/23
18:54:40 <clown> agenda+ be done.
18:55:47 <Zakim> WAI_PFWG(AAPI)3:00PM has now started
18:55:55 <Zakim> +[GVoice]
18:56:04 <clown> zakim, GVoice is Joseph_Scheuhammer
18:56:04 <Zakim> +Joseph_Scheuhammer; got it
18:56:11 <clown> zakim, I am Joseph_Scheuhammer
18:56:11 <Zakim> ok, clown, I now associate you with Joseph_Scheuhammer
18:56:51 <Zakim> +Joanmarie_Diggs
19:01:07 <Zakim> +Bryan_Garaventa
19:02:37 <bgaraventa1979> bgaraventa1979 has joined #aapi
19:02:59 <bgaraventa1979> zakim, I am Bryan_Garaventa
19:02:59 <Zakim> ok, bgaraventa1979, I now associate you with Bryan_Garaventa
19:03:10 <richardschwerdtfeger> richardschwerdtfeger has joined #aapi
19:03:13 <joanie> Zakim, I am Joanmarie_Diggs
19:03:13 <Zakim> ok, joanie, I now associate you with Joanmarie_Diggs
19:03:53 <joanie> Scribenick: joanie
19:04:02 <joanie> regrets: David_Bolter
19:04:29 <Zakim> +Rich_Schwerdtfeger
19:08:37 <joanie> Zakim, next item
19:08:37 <Zakim> agendum 1. "ISSUE-514/ACTION-1504: (All) Review edits to aria-readonly="true" in state/property table, when inherited by gridcell
19:08:39 <Zakim> ... (http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/implementation/aria-implementation.html#ariaReadonlyTrue)." taken up [from clown]
19:08:47 <clown> action-1504?
19:08:47 <trackbot> action-1504 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to Core-AAM mappings of aria-readonly="true" when propagated to gridcell. -- due 2014-09-05 -- PENDINGREVIEW
19:08:47 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1504
19:08:57 <joanie> JS:  We decided this last week. I did the edits and want to run them by everyone.
19:09:26 <joanie> JS: This is about when an author puts aria-readonly="true" on a treegrid, it is therefore inherited by all the gridcells
19:11:51 <joanie> RS: What do you put in for AXValue? Is it a string? Something else?
19:12:04 <joanie> JS: I think it depends on context, but I'm not an Apple developer.
19:14:04 <joanie> (More discussion with examples about what the AXValue might contain)
19:17:12 <clown> AXRole:  TextArea …. AXValue (W) <empty string>
19:18:25 <clown> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/testharness/
19:18:59 <clown> AXRole: AXTable,
19:18:59 <clown> AXSubrole: <nil>,
19:18:59 <clown> AXDescription: 'table', AND
19:18:59 <clown> AXValue: is not writable.
19:19:49 <clown> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/testharness/testresults?testsuite_id=1&testcase_id=181
19:20:47 <joanie> RS: We should run the tests/check this out for the Mac.
19:21:31 <richardschwerdtfeger> issue: Core Mapping Spec. does not adequately define readonly mapping for axValue on MacOSX
19:21:31 <trackbot> Created ISSUE-675 - Core mapping spec. does not adequately define readonly mapping for axvalue on macosx.  Please complete additional details at <https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/675/edit>.
19:25:35 <joanie> RS: My concern is that is not programmatically determinable.
19:25:45 <joanie> JS: I will keep this action open then.
19:25:58 <joanie> RS: I think this issue is something different. I think you could close the action.
19:27:01 <joanie> JS: But we don't have Mozilla's approval.
19:27:10 <joanie> RS: But it describes what it does now?
19:27:16 <joanie> JS: Probably, but I'm not sure.
19:27:38 <joanie> JS: This new wording probably does require a new test case.
19:28:04 <joanie> JD: I'll look into the ATK mapping issue (no mapping)
19:28:16 <joanie> JS: Ok, I'll leave this open for now and come back to it in two weeks?
19:28:49 <joanie> https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=690008
19:30:55 <joanie> JD: The above bug is one of a set of three I think.
19:31:09 <joanie> https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=665598
19:36:10 <joanie> JS: The definition of read-only is that the user can read, but not set the value of the widget.
19:36:41 <joanie> JS: A column header has a sort-value. Perhaps if the header is readonly, you cannot change the sort order.
19:38:09 <joanie> JS: Other actions (focus, copying values, etc.) should not be disabled.
19:38:46 <joanie> JS: There are other places where it says AXValue (Writable).
19:38:54 <joanie> JS: This is not limited to gridcell.
19:39:11 <joanie> JS: The other places specify the value of AXValue, so they're ok.
19:39:19 <joanie> Zakim, next item
19:39:19 <Zakim> agendum 2. "ACTION-1396: (Cynthia) MSAA+UIAExpress mapping of grid role." taken up [from clown]
19:39:27 <joanie> JS: Cynthia is not here.
19:39:30 <joanie> Zakim, next item
19:39:30 <Zakim> agendum 2 was just opened, joanie
19:39:31 <joanie> Zakim, next item
19:39:31 <Zakim> agendum 2 was just opened, joanie
19:39:36 <joanie> Zakim, take up item 3
19:39:36 <Zakim> agendum 3. "ACTION-980: (David) Define mappings for managed aria related states." taken up [from clown]
19:39:56 <joanie> JS: David is not here. But David contacted me earlier today to say he's working on it.
19:39:56 <clown> action-980?
19:39:56 <trackbot> action-980 -- David Bolter to Define mappings for managed aria related states: aria-setsize, aria-posinset, arla-level, focused, focusable with reference to section 5.5 bullet 1 of the UAIG. -- due 2014-08-22 -- OPEN
19:39:56 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/980
19:40:11 <joanie> JS: There's a section in the document about managed ARIA states.
19:41:33 <joanie> JS: All I remember about this is that there are a set of states which are related and should sort of go together in their mappings.
19:42:06 <clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/implementation/aria-implementation.html#mapping_state-property
19:42:44 <joanie> 5.5 bullet 1: User agents must compute managed states VISIBLE/INVISIBLE, SHOWING/OFFSCREEN, etc. This typically is done in the same way as for ordinary elements that do not have WAI-ARIA attributes present. The FOCUSABLE/FOCUSED states may be affected by aria-activedescendant. See the rules in Controlling focus with aria-activedescendant.
19:42:59 <joanie> JS: I find this very difficult to understand.
19:43:11 <joanie> JS: And I think that was the issue: What does this really mean?
19:43:42 <joanie> RS: What they are saying is that the accessible DOM should reflect the changes to the elements that are rendered.
19:44:00 <joanie> RS: So these are for user agents; not the author.
19:44:38 <joanie> RS: Authors can override some states, such as posinset and level.
19:44:56 <joanie> JS: Ok, I understand it better now. But now, what is action-980 about?
19:46:12 <joanie> RS: So we have setsize, posinset, level. But we don't have mappings for the visibility, do we?
19:46:38 <clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/implementation/aria-implementation.html#mapping_events_visibility
19:47:09 <joanie> RS: Those are events. Where are the states?
19:47:23 <joanie> RS: For example, when you scroll in Firefox, some things go off the screen.
19:47:31 <joanie> RS: That's the stuff I think you need (as an example).
19:48:08 <clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/implementation/aria-implementation.html#focus_state_event_table
19:48:11 <joanie> JS: We have a table for focused states and events (above link)
19:49:25 <joanie> RS: So we probably need showing and/or offscreen.
19:51:09 <richardschwerdtfeger> https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/Accessibility/AT-APIs/MSAA/States
19:51:39 <joanie> JS: So Mozilla is already doing this.
19:51:52 <joanie> RS: (Reads from the document linked above on MSAA States)
19:52:11 <richardschwerdtfeger> https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/Accessibility/AT-APIs/Gecko/States#STATE_INVISIBLE
19:53:18 <joanie> JS: I'm going to put a note in the action about this.
19:53:34 <richardschwerdtfeger> https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/Accessibility/AT-APIs/MSAA/States
19:55:12 <joanie> https://developer.gnome.org/atk/stable/atk-AtkState.html#AtkStateType
19:56:40 <joanie> https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=648260
19:58:13 <clown> http://asurkov.blogspot.ca/2012/02/firefox-12-for-at-developers.html
19:58:37 <joanie> JS: In the above blogpost, Alex Surkov explains how these states are used in Gecko.
19:59:22 <joanie> RS: I think you want to have a dedicated section for managed states.
20:01:50 <joanie> topic: SVG
20:02:05 <joanie> RS: We need to agree on name computation.
20:02:36 <joanie> JS: I think we need to have a separate document.
20:03:01 <joanie> RS: I talked to Janina and Michael briefly about this. It would not be outside our charter to do this.
20:04:17 <richardschwerdtfeger> RS: In a later agenda item please add disussion as to when to expose SVG objects in the absence of ARIA attributes
20:04:47 <richardschwerdtfeger> RS: In a later agenda item we need to agree on SVG name computation in whatever document it shows up in. This includes HTML.
20:05:03 <joanie> JS: Do you want this for next week's meeting?
20:05:18 <joanie> RS: I'd certainly like the first one, but on the other we need to discuss things with James.
20:06:31 <joanie> RS: There can be two child tags, one can be title one can be desc, and this changes the name computation potentially.
20:07:31 <joanie> Zakim, part
20:07:31 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees were Joseph_Scheuhammer, Joanmarie_Diggs, Bryan_Garaventa, Rich_Schwerdtfeger
20:07:31 <Zakim> Zakim has left #aapi
20:07:40 <joanie> RRSAgent, stop