14:32:56 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #wai-wcag
14:32:56 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/08/26-wai-wcag-irc
14:32:58 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
14:33:00 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAI_WCAG
14:33:00 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see WAI_WCAG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 27 minutes
14:33:01 <trackbot> Meeting: Web Content Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference
14:33:01 <trackbot> Date: 26 August 2014
14:33:03 <Joshue108> zakim, agenda?
14:33:03 <Zakim> I see 3 items remaining on the agenda:
14:33:04 <Zakim> 3. Alistair’s technique - https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Creating_a_conforming_alternate_version_for_a_responsive_web_page_designed_with_progressive_enhancement [from AWK]
14:33:04 <Zakim> 4. review open items and actions [from AWK]
14:33:04 <Zakim> 5. https://www.w3.org/2006/02/lc-comments-tracker/35422/WD-WCAG20-TECHS-20140724/2947 [from AWK]
14:33:26 <Joshue108> Chair: AWK
14:36:50 <AWK> Zakim, clear agenda
14:36:50 <Zakim> agenda cleared
14:50:16 <Joshue108> agenda+ August 26th Survey - https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/comments26Aug2014/
14:50:25 <Joshue108> agenda+ Publication review, approval, and link checking. Timeline update
14:50:32 <Joshue108> agenda+ Institutional Memory Collection for 26th August 2014 - https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/IMCAugust2014/
14:50:40 <Joshue108> agenda+ Alistair's technique - https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Creating_a_conforming_alternate_version_for_a_web_page_designed_with_progressive_enhancement
14:51:11 <Joshue108> agenda+ Review open issues and actions http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/track/actions/open
14:53:02 <AWK> AWK has joined #wai-wcag
14:53:09 <AWK> Zakim, agenda?
14:53:09 <Zakim> I see 5 items remaining on the agenda:
14:53:10 <Zakim> 1. August 26th Survey - https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/comments26Aug2014/ [from Joshue108]
14:53:10 <Zakim> 2. Publication review, approval, and link checking. Timeline update [from Joshue108]
14:53:10 <Zakim> 3. Institutional Memory Collection for 26th August 2014 - https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/IMCAugust2014/ [from Joshue108]
14:53:12 <Zakim> 4. Alistair's technique - https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Creating_a_conforming_alternate_version_for_a_web_page_designed_with_progressive_enhancement [from Joshue108]
14:53:12 <Zakim> 5. Review open issues and actions http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/track/actions/open [from Joshue108]
14:53:41 <AWK> Zakim, regrets?
14:53:41 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, AWK.
14:53:53 <AWK> regrets+ Wilco, Sailesh
14:53:57 <AWK> Chair: AWK
14:55:34 <Zakim> WAI_WCAG()11:00AM has now started
14:55:42 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
14:55:42 <Joshue108> zakim, [IPcaller] is Joshue
14:55:43 <Zakim> +Joshue; got it
14:56:17 <Zakim> +AWK
14:56:50 <Zakim> +??P18
14:57:28 <MichaelC> agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2014JulSep/0185.html
14:59:07 <AWK> Zakim, who is on the phone?
14:59:07 <Zakim> On the phone I see Joshue, AWK, Michael_Cooper
15:00:12 <bbailey> bbailey has joined #wai-wcag
15:00:22 <Zakim> +Bruce_Bailey
15:00:32 <Mike_Elledge> Mike_Elledge has joined #wai-wcag
15:01:05 <Joshue108> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Scribe_List
15:01:08 <Zakim> +[FordMotor]
15:01:16 <Loretta> Loretta has joined #WAI-WCAG
15:01:21 <marcjohlic> marcjohlic has joined #wai-wcag
15:01:24 <Zakim> +Marc_Johlic
15:01:25 <bbailey> zakim, i am bruce
15:01:26 <Zakim> ok, bbailey, I now associate you with Bruce_Bailey
15:02:01 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:02:18 <Loretta> zakim, IPcaller is Loretta
15:02:18 <Zakim> +Loretta; got it
15:03:18 <Kathy> Kathy has joined #wai-wcag
15:03:26 <cstrobbe> cstrobbe has joined #wai-wcag
15:03:44 <Zakim> +Kathy_Wahlbin
15:04:29 <AWK> Zakim, who is on the phone?
15:04:30 <Zakim> +cstrobbe
15:04:30 <Zakim> On the phone I see Joshue, AWK, Michael_Cooper, Bruce_Bailey, [FordMotor], Marc_Johlic, Loretta, Kathy_Wahlbin, cstrobbe
15:04:33 <Brent> Brent has joined #wai-wcag
15:04:37 <cstrobbe> zakim, mute me
15:04:37 <Zakim> cstrobbe should now be muted
15:05:03 <AWK> regrets+ David
15:05:15 <jon_avila> jon_avila has joined #wai-wcag
15:05:34 <Zakim> + +1.512.276.aaaa
15:05:42 <Zakim> +jon_avila
15:06:42 <MichaelC> zakim, aaaa is Brent_Shiver
15:06:42 <Zakim> +Brent_Shiver; got it
15:07:11 <Joshue108> zakim, mute me
15:07:11 <Zakim> Joshue should now be muted
15:07:53 <AWK> Scribe: FordMotor
15:08:05 <MichaelC> scribe: Mike_Elledge
15:08:24 <AWK> Zakim, take up item 1
15:08:24 <Zakim> agendum 1. "August 26th Survey - https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/comments26Aug2014/" taken up [from Joshue108]
15:08:29 <MichaelC> zakim, FordMotor is Mike_Elledge
15:08:29 <Zakim> +Mike_Elledge; got it
15:09:34 <Mike_Elledge> AK: Quick round of introductions
15:09:48 <Zakim> +Kenny
15:09:52 <Joshue108> ack me
15:10:01 <AWK> ZAkim, who is on the phone
15:10:01 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is on the phone', AWK
15:10:02 <Mike_Elledge> AK: Adobe
15:10:22 <AWK> Zakim, who is on the phone?
15:10:23 <Zakim> On the phone I see Joshue, AWK, Michael_Cooper, Bruce_Bailey, Mike_Elledge, Marc_Johlic, Loretta, Kathy_Wahlbin, cstrobbe (muted), Brent_Shiver, jon_avila, Kenny
15:10:32 <Mike_Elledge> BB: Section 508
15:10:45 <Mike_Elledge> BS: IBM. Speaking through interpreter.
15:10:57 <Joshue108> zakim, mute me
15:10:57 <Zakim> Joshue should now be muted
15:11:01 <Zakim> +Katie_Haritos-Shea
15:11:15 <Mike_Elledge> ME: USability spec/Accy at Ford
15:11:31 <Mike_Elledge> Loretta: Google
15:11:36 <cstrobbe> zakim, unmute me
15:11:36 <Zakim> cstrobbe should no longer be muted
15:11:40 <Mike_Elledge> KW: Boston. Interactive accessibility
15:11:50 <Mike_Elledge> C: Belgium
15:11:55 <cstrobbe> zakim, mute me
15:11:55 <Zakim> cstrobbe should now be muted
15:11:57 <Mike_Elledge> JA: SSB. N. VA
15:12:17 <Kenny> W3C WAI, from China
15:12:28 <MichaelC> Beihang site
15:12:44 <Mike_Elledge> Katie: WCAG. JP Morgan Chase
15:12:59 <Mike_Elledge> MC: W3C. Boston. Staff contact for this group.
15:13:11 <Ryladog> Ryladog has joined #wai-wcag
15:13:23 <Mike_Elledge> Topic: August 26 Survey
15:13:29 <AWK> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/comments26Aug2014/results
15:13:57 <Mike_Elledge> AK: First two items. 8 Accept. Objections?
15:14:53 <Mike_Elledge> RESOLUTION: Accept 2948 and 2947 as proposed.
15:14:58 <AWK> TOPIC: LC-2949: Not just charts and graphs
15:15:00 <Joshue108> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/comments26Aug2014/results#xlc2949
15:16:08 <Joshue108> q?
15:16:27 <Mike_Elledge> AK: Not just charts and graphs that should have good contrast ratio, should also pay attn to other things. Bruce comment on "should."
15:17:04 <Mike_Elledge> BB: "Should" implies must, why is it advisory? Clear without using it.
15:17:39 <Mike_Elledge> AK: Worry that  if change it to "important" people will be confused whether have to do it.
15:17:46 <Mike_Elledge> BB: Sentence before makes clear.
15:18:34 <Joshue108> ack me
15:19:12 <Mike_Elledge> JO: Use of data presented in all vs. in "these" forms.
15:19:29 <Mike_Elledge> AK: Updating proposal in response to comments.
15:19:58 <bbailey> Here's the paragraph in context:Although this Success Criterion only applies to text, similar issues occur for data presented in charts or graphs. [begin change]Data presented in charts and graphs should also have a good contrast ratio to ensure that more users can access the information.[end change]
15:20:28 <AWK> Although this Success Criterion only applies to text, similar issues occur for data presented in @@charts, graphs, diagrams, and other non-text-based information. Data presented in @@these forms also need to have a good contrast ratio to ensure that more users can access the information.
15:20:43 <Mike_Elledge> Modify second sentence: charts, graphs, diagrams, and other non-text-based information. Data presented in these forms  also need have a good contrast ratio to ensure that more users can access the information.
15:20:54 <Mike_Elledge> AK: Comments
15:21:18 <jon_avila> +1
15:21:26 <Mike_Elledge> +1
15:21:37 <bbailey> +1
15:22:46 <Mike_Elledge> K: Making it appear that it should...
15:22:58 <Mike_Elledge> BB: Combine in one sentence?
15:23:33 <Mike_Elledge> K: Can be impossible to provide sufficient contrast. Want them to try, but not put people in impossible situation if can't.
15:23:44 <Joshue108> zakim, mute me
15:23:44 <Zakim> Joshue should now be muted
15:24:19 <Mike_Elledge> AK: Have good or a good contrast ratio?
15:24:31 <AWK> Although this Success Criterion only applies to text, similar issues occur for data presented in @@charts, graphs, diagrams, and other non-text-based information. Data presented in @@these forms also needs to have good contrast to ensure that more users can access the information.
15:25:11 <MichaelC> ack me
15:25:45 <Mike_Elledge> JA: Cotnent instead of data?
15:26:08 <Mike_Elledge> L: Read it as a form.
15:26:21 <Joshue108> +1 to content presented in this matter
15:26:25 <AWK> Although this Success Criterion only applies to text, similar issues occur for data presented in @@charts, graphs, diagrams, and other non-text-based information. Content presented in @@this manner also needs to have good contrast to ensure that more users can access the information.
15:26:36 <bbailey> Although this Success Criterion only applies to text, similar issues occur for data presented in charts, graphs, diagrams, and other non-text-based information, which also needs to have good contrast to ensure that more users can access the information.
15:26:43 <bbailey> q+
15:26:44 <Joshue108> s/matter/manner
15:27:02 <Mike_Elledge> AK: Don't like BB comment, too long.
15:27:20 <cstrobbe> zakim, unmute me
15:27:20 <Zakim> cstrobbe should no longer be muted
15:27:28 <Mike_Elledge> AK: Any objection to AK's sentence.
15:27:35 <Mike_Elledge> B: Doesn't sound advisory?
15:27:36 <cstrobbe> q+ you have "data" first, then "content".
15:27:40 <Mike_Elledge> L: Okay with it.
15:28:16 <Joshue108> ack me
15:28:33 <bbailey> +1
15:28:41 <Mike_Elledge> Jo: Use content in both sentences.
15:28:42 <bbailey> q-
15:28:47 <Joshue108> q?
15:28:57 <cstrobbe> q- you, have, "data", first, then, "content"
15:29:11 <cstrobbe> zakim, mute me
15:29:11 <Zakim> cstrobbe should now be muted
15:29:20 <Mike_Elledge> RESOLUTION: Accepted as amended.
15:29:49 <Mike_Elledge> TOPIC: Captions for video in foreign language
15:29:53 <Joshue108> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/comments26Aug2014/results#xlc2942
15:30:20 <Mike_Elledge> AK: Some history. Came to an understanding last week. Everyone not fully happy, seems like a bit of a gap. But...
15:30:42 <Mike_Elledge> AK: Bruce comment
15:31:26 <Mike_Elledge> BB: Missed a "not". Perhaps sentence could be an addition.
15:32:03 <Mike_Elledge> AK: Issue is that sentence we have is to encourage people who have already provided captions to provide subtitles that also include information otherwise not presented.
15:32:22 <Loretta>  q+
15:32:54 <Mike_Elledge> BB: Think that my point is subtitles providing information diferent from captions is important.
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15:32:56 <Zakim> +James_Nurthen
15:32:58 <Joshue108> ack lor
15:33:01 <AWK> ack lo
15:33:10 <jamesn> rrsagent, make minutes
15:33:10 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/08/26-wai-wcag-minutes.html jamesn
15:33:48 <Joshue108> +q
15:33:59 <Mike_Elledge> L: Distinction betw subtitles and captions is important, but subtitles not required by WCAG. If people provide subtitles would like them to consider language issues
15:34:14 <Mike_Elledge> L: Think that discussion addressed distinction.
15:34:19 <Joshue108> ack me
15:34:21 <AWK> ack j
15:34:22 <Mike_Elledge> BB: Yes, in wcag proper.
15:35:23 <Mike_Elledge> JO: Glad to hear what Loretta said, i.e., conflation of captions and subtitles.
15:35:27 <bbailey> q+ to say it is pretty common for people to assume subtitles == captions
15:35:40 <Joshue108> ack bruce
15:35:41 <Zakim> Bruce_Bailey, you wanted to say it is pretty common for people to assume subtitles == captions
15:36:03 <Mike_Elledge> BB: Just to reiterate common mistake that subtitles can substitute captions.
15:36:25 <Mike_Elledge> UK English does not distinguish between them.
15:37:25 <Mike_Elledge> BB: Routinely watch either. Often subtitles do not have non-spoken info. Lately, DVDs will say subtitled for hearing-impaired, English and non-English.
15:37:54 <Mike_Elledge> JO: James point that England doesn't distinguish, Ireland neither.
15:38:40 <Zakim> +Cooper
15:38:57 <AWK> ack cooper
15:38:58 <Mike_Elledge> JO: To extant that we diffentiate between them, should captioning also contain info that subtitles would. Maybe make it less confusing?
15:39:08 <Joshue108> q?
15:39:54 <AWK> https://www.w3.org/2006/02/lc-comments-tracker/35422/REC-WCAG20-20081211/2942
15:39:58 <bbailey> see:  http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20/#captionsdef
15:40:02 <Mike_Elledge> AK: Worry about what you say, bc difference in our WCAG definition.
15:40:14 <bbailey> Note 5: In some countries, captions are called subtitles.
15:41:01 <Mike_Elledge> AK: Revised resolution.
15:41:08 <Mike_Elledge> BB: Reads will to me.
15:41:11 <bbailey> +1
15:41:37 <Brent> q+
15:41:44 <Joshue108> ack bren
15:42:54 <Mike_Elledge> Brent: Listening in...couple of comments. Subtitles is different from captioning. Sometimes can be frustrating not to have info about sound effects. But be careful about hearing-impaired, not PC, degrading
15:43:18 <Mike_Elledge> Brent: probably say deaf and hard of hearing. DHH instead.
15:43:36 <Mike_Elledge> AK: Appreciate that feedback, thanks.
15:44:23 <Mike_Elledge> AK: Will change "deaf" to "deaf and hard of hearing." Do we need third sentence at all?
15:44:37 <Mike_Elledge> AK: Any thoughts?
15:45:01 <Mike_Elledge> AK: Will remove it.
15:45:07 <AWK> https://www.w3.org/2006/02/lc-comments-tracker/35422/REC-WCAG20-20081211/2942 - updated response
15:45:24 <Mike_Elledge> AK: Any objection to accepting as amended?
15:45:42 <Mike_Elledge> RESOLUTION: Accepted as amended.
15:46:09 <Mike_Elledge> AK: Process question for Brent. Are you getting enough time working through an interpreter?
15:46:38 <Mike_Elledge> Brent: Pretty skilled interpreter can keep up. If I have objection will tell you loud and clear. Thanks for that.
15:46:42 <bbailey> q+
15:47:01 <Joshue108> ack bruce
15:47:38 <Mike_Elledge> BB: Not blocking. Thank you. Good to have person who is deaf to tell us if process works for him.
15:48:20 <Mike_Elledge> Brent: Seen many situation where deaf person or deafness not thought of as individual. Many people frustrated with HDMI since captioning can't be passed through.
15:48:41 <Mike_Elledge> JO: Also thank Brent since DHH people often under-represented.
15:49:29 <Mike_Elledge> AK: Basically all done with comments! Well done.
15:49:40 <Mike_Elledge> TOPIC: Captions Techniques Update
15:50:01 <Joshue108> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Techniques/General/Caption_Updates
15:50:37 <Mike_Elledge> AK: Marc has sent in updates. Thanks. We don't talk about accuracy, but it is an important aspect, as well as not obscuring content with captions.
15:50:49 <Joshue108> q?
15:50:52 <Mike_Elledge> AK:  Michael C last proposed change?
15:50:56 <Joshue108> zakim, mute me
15:50:56 <Zakim> Joshue should now be muted
15:51:14 <Mike_Elledge> AK: Are you muted, we'll come back?
15:51:52 <Mike_Elledge> MJ: Change in test procedure for Flash and ? need to describe.
15:52:11 <Mike_Elledge> MC: Agree with value, but worry that it is beyond scope.
15:52:20 <AWK> http://www.w3.org/WAI/WCAG20/quickref/20140408/#media-equiv-captions
15:52:59 <Mike_Elledge> AK: In how to meet section, number 3 (122) provide any of techniques below is an "and" relationship. Use G97 and techniques.
15:53:16 <AWK> s/use G97/use G87
15:53:24 <Mike_Elledge> MC: People will not always see that.
15:54:04 <Mike_Elledge> AK: From strict techniques view, covered even if we don't make that change. Flash 9 doesn't describe obscuring.
15:54:16 <Mike_Elledge> MC: Could make it part of test procedure.
15:54:41 <Mike_Elledge> AK: Would probably be fine...looking at SMIL 11...thoughts?
15:55:25 <Mike_Elledge> L: Did we come to conclusion of how to make more obvious that it is "And" relationship?
15:56:04 <Mike_Elledge> AK: Does XML get to it? Less obvious and easy a change. Do we have a draft?
15:56:04 <Zakim> -Joshue
15:56:19 <Mike_Elledge> MC: Can present something to group.
15:56:52 <Mike_Elledge> AK: Add sufficient when combined with another technique to Flash 9 directly.
15:57:08 <Mike_Elledge> MC: Add to test procedures to make it more obvious.
15:57:12 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:57:18 <Joshue108> zakim, [IPcaller] is Joshue
15:57:18 <Zakim> +Joshue; got it
15:57:32 <Joshue108> zakim, mute me
15:57:32 <Zakim> Joshue should now be muted
15:57:49 <Mike_Elledge> MC: Change approved for round, but not in time for group to discuss.
15:58:51 <Mike_Elledge> L: Since haven't sorted how to make more obvious when technique is part of AND relationship, wouldn't want to decide that would only put in general technique, assuming that it would help.
15:59:34 <Mike_Elledge> AK: Bruce--"obscuring" is a should not a must.
15:59:52 <Joshue108> ack me
16:00:00 <bbailey> http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20/#captionsdef
16:00:00 <Mike_Elledge> AK: Josh: "Check that captions (of all dialogue and important sounds) are visible and do not obscure onscreen action or content/information presented visually."
16:00:16 <bbailey> Note 4: Captions should not obscure or obstruct relevant information in the video.
16:00:30 <marcjohlic> q+
16:00:39 <Joshue108> ack marc
16:00:51 <marcjohlic> http://www.w3.org/TR/2014/NOTE-UNDERSTANDING-WCAG20-20140408/media-equiv-captions.html#captionsdef
16:00:53 <Mike_Elledge> JO: Obscured not clear, should call it out.
16:01:18 <bbailey> q+
16:01:22 <Mike_Elledge> MJ: Change "important" to "relevant".
16:02:03 <AWK> ack b
16:02:12 <Mike_Elledge> BB: Saw it, but problem with saying "should" is an oversight on our part.
16:02:48 <Mike_Elledge> AK: Can't say "can't" obscure, attempt to minimize it, but possible that there is info in every part of screen, so impossible not to obscure.
16:03:06 <Mike_Elledge> BB: Okay with requirement saying should. It "must" have come up.
16:03:08 <alistair> alistair has joined #wai-wcag
16:03:24 <AWK> AWK: Impossible not to obscure some amount of content in some situations.
16:03:55 <Mike_Elledge> BB: Quality expectation for live captioning is different. So should say something about "quality". YouTube captioning doesnt meet this requirement.
16:04:15 <AWK> Key phrase for editing: Check that captions (of all dialogue and important sounds) are visible and accurately represent the content and do not obscure any important information.
16:04:15 <Mike_Elledge> JO: Agree, even if we don't have a definition of it. "highest degree possible"?
16:05:09 <Mike_Elledge> AK: Check taht cpations meet definition of cpations?
16:05:21 <Mike_Elledge> BB: But also say something about quality.
16:05:33 <Joshue108> s/taht cpations meet definition of cpations?/that captions meet the WCAG definitions of captions
16:05:47 <Brent> q+
16:05:54 <AWK> Check that captions (of all dialogue and important sounds) meet the WCAG definition of captions to ensure accurate and high-quality information.
16:06:24 <Mike_Elledge> JO: Confused. Remove should not obscure since it's part of definition, but put in comment about quality.
16:06:54 <Mike_Elledge> BB: Quality is implicit, but not explicit. So steps should include it.
16:07:02 <AWK> ack brent
16:07:15 <Zakim> -Cooper
16:07:21 <Mike_Elledge> JO: Remove reference to obscuring, but include quality.
16:07:37 <Joshue108> +1 to Bruces idea
16:07:46 <Loretta> q
16:07:54 <Loretta> q+
16:08:03 <Joshue108> q?
16:08:41 <Mike_Elledge> MC: Type of captioning is important. Quality varies a great deal. High level accuracy would be good term. Agree with taking out obscurity. Third--sometimes captioning is hard to see (contrast).
16:08:50 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
16:08:51 <jon_avila> q+
16:08:51 <Joshue108> Very good point Brent
16:08:52 <alistair> zakim, ipcaller is alistair
16:08:52 <Zakim> +alistair; got it
16:08:56 <AWK> Captions are text so are covered by the other color contrast rules
16:09:02 <Joshue108> ack Lore
16:09:36 <Joshue108> zakim, mute me
16:09:36 <Zakim> Joshue should now be muted
16:10:07 <Mike_Elledge> L: First assure Brent that auto captiosn on YouTube are not sufficient to meet WCAG. So apologies, not meant to be sufficient. Color contrast, what were user agent responsibilities and which were author content. Gets blurry.
16:10:49 <Mike_Elledge> L: Size, color, font are user agent functions. Not author. So don't think additional requirements here is appropriate. Would be covered by existing text contrast criteria.
16:10:54 <AWK> ack j
16:11:54 <Mike_Elledge> JA: Reiterate. Remove check for relevant content. Don't agree. Have others like clarity, people rely on these and don't go back to definition.
16:11:57 <AWK> Check that captions (of all dialogue and important sounds) meet the WCAG definition of captions to ensure accurate and high-quality information.
16:12:11 <bbailey> +1
16:13:32 <Joshue108> q?
16:13:37 <Joshue108> +q
16:13:38 <Mike_Elledge> AK: Captions include speech and non-speech audio, cc can be turned off, open not, not obscure video...What approach should we take. Put in all, some, or that captions meet definition?
16:13:41 <Joshue108> ack me
16:14:39 <MichaelC> q+ to say test procedures haven´t usually had links, but there´s no reason they can´t
16:14:40 <jon_avila> q+
16:14:41 <bbailey> q+ to say repeating most of caption definition is okay, but be careful.  Also "ensure accurate" is different than "being accurate"
16:14:43 <Mike_Elledge> JO: Thanks for reading definition. Follow what Bruce said. If quality not addressed would see it as a progression if we said must be high quality. Caption already addresses obscuring content. Prefer what Bruce said.
16:14:46 <MichaelC> ack me
16:14:47 <Joshue108> q?
16:14:48 <Zakim> MichaelC, you wanted to say test procedures haven´t usually had links, but there´s no reason they can´t
16:15:16 <Mike_Elledge> MC: We typically don't put links in test procedures, but can to caption if it's helpful.
16:15:43 <Mike_Elledge> JA: For other things go into detail, when it's important. Just don't say go there.
16:15:44 <jon_avila> q-
16:15:52 <AWK> ack b
16:15:52 <Zakim> Bruce_Bailey, you wanted to say repeating most of caption definition is okay, but be careful.  Also "ensure accurate" is different than "being accurate"
16:16:01 <Mike_Elledge> JO: Could live with referencing not obscuring.
16:17:00 <Joshue108> zakim, mute me
16:17:00 <Zakim> Joshue should now be muted
16:17:11 <Mike_Elledge> BB: If want to address obscuring and non-speech elements just don't want to repeat all of definition. Captions also have to keep up with speech, live expectations are lower than pre-recorded, so have to say something about quality and accuracy bec they are implicit but not explicit.
16:17:17 <jon_avila> +1 to that.
16:18:15 <bbailey> happy to take a pass at further edit
16:18:28 <Mike_Elledge> AK: Feel like...not confident we can address this for approval. Leave open. Bruce want to improve procedure started by Marc. A bit of a "hail Mary" pass that would get into this draft, don't feel have to address. A would like to.
16:18:57 <Mike_Elledge> AK: Do people want to try to get in next twelve minutes.
16:19:01 <Mike_Elledge> L: Move it forward.
16:19:04 <Mike_Elledge> +1
16:19:07 <Joshue108> ack me
16:19:32 <Mike_Elledge> AK: Address it next week, there fore appear in March rather than September revisions.
16:20:04 <Mike_Elledge> MJ: Kind of torn. Seems like we're almost there. ARe we that far apart of definition or test procedure?
16:20:23 <Mike_Elledge> AK: Then question of which techniques we apply it to. SMIL or general.
16:20:34 <Mike_Elledge> MJ: Better to continue discussion.
16:21:00 <Joshue108> zakim, mute me
16:21:00 <Zakim> Joshue should now be muted
16:21:01 <Mike_Elledge> JO: Feel like Marc, would be great to have something about "quality" in there. Defer to concensus.
16:21:23 <Mike_Elledge> AK: Grudging willingness to leave it open.
16:21:29 <Mike_Elledge> MJ: Okay.
16:21:37 <Mike_Elledge> RESOLUTION: Leave open.
16:22:01 <AWK> ACTION Bruce to edit https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Techniques/General/Caption_Updates to improve procedure based on August 26, 2014 call
16:22:01 <trackbot> Created ACTION-270 - Edit https://www.w3.org/wai/gl/wiki/techniques/general/caption_updates to improve procedure based on august 26, 2014 call [on Bruce Bailey - due 2014-09-02].
16:22:15 <AWK> ZAkim, close item 1
16:22:15 <Zakim> agendum 1, August 26th Survey - https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/comments26Aug2014/, closed
16:22:17 <Mike_Elledge> BB: Will take a crack at it. Thanks Marc for initial.
16:22:18 <Zakim> I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
16:22:18 <Zakim> 2. Publication review, approval, and link checking. Timeline update [from Joshue108]
16:22:19 <Joshue108> zakim, agenda?
16:22:19 <Zakim> I see 4 items remaining on the agenda:
16:22:20 <Zakim> 2. Publication review, approval, and link checking. Timeline update [from Joshue108]
16:22:20 <Zakim> 3. Institutional Memory Collection for 26th August 2014 - https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/IMCAugust2014/ [from Joshue108]
16:22:20 <Zakim> 4. Alistair's technique - https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Creating_a_conforming_alternate_version_for_a_web_page_designed_with_progressive_enhancement [from Joshue108]
16:22:22 <AWK> ZAkim, take up item 2
16:22:23 <Zakim> 5. Review open issues and actions http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/track/actions/open [from Joshue108]
16:22:23 <Zakim> agendum 2. "Publication review, approval, and link checking. Timeline update" taken up [from Joshue108]
16:22:33 <Mike_Elledge> AK: Item two.
16:22:56 <jamesn> jamesn has joined #wai-wcag
16:24:17 <Mike_Elledge> AK: Will produce final for review by group. Task this week. Michael has missive that no broken links. Link checking > no broken links. Usually a few links disappear. So have to either fix or replace with reasonable replacement.
16:25:03 <Zakim> -Kenny
16:25:21 <MichaelC> ack me
16:25:26 <Mike_Elledge> AK: For publication review timeline, will send out email with schedule for tech and understanding document. What is relevant, week before Thanksgiving is the deadline. Of particular interest to Mobile task force, will contain many of the updates in next round.
16:25:53 <Mike_Elledge> MC: Links that were valid but are now broken. Will send out list.
16:25:59 <Joshue108> q?
16:26:02 <AWK> ZAkim, next item
16:26:02 <Zakim> agendum 3. "Institutional Memory Collection for 26th August 2014 - https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/IMCAugust2014/" taken up [from Joshue108]
16:26:04 <Mike_Elledge> AK: Any questions?
16:26:37 <Mike_Elledge> AK: Next topic Institutional Memory. Won't get far. But let's discuss.
16:26:45 <Zakim> +Kenny
16:27:15 <bbailey> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/IMCAugust2014/results
16:27:16 <Mike_Elledge> AK: TOPIC: 241 AND 242
16:27:27 <Joshue108> Start next week on  Institutional Memory Collection for 26th August 2014 https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/IMCAugust2014/results
16:27:30 <Mike_Elledge> AK: Think about for next week.
16:27:48 <Mike_Elledge> AK: Any questions on that?
16:27:48 <AWK> ZAkim, next item
16:27:48 <Zakim> agendum 4. "Alistair's technique - https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Creating_a_conforming_alternate_version_for_a_web_page_designed_with_progressive_enhancement" taken up [from
16:27:51 <Zakim> ... Joshue108]
16:27:57 <AWK> ZAkim, next item
16:27:57 <Zakim> agendum 4 was just opened, AWK
16:28:05 <AWK> ZAkim, really open next item
16:28:05 <Zakim> I don't understand 'really open next item', AWK
16:28:12 <Mike_Elledge> AK: Alistair's technique won't get to in next two minutes.
16:28:14 <Joshue108> zakim, next item
16:28:14 <Zakim> agendum 4 was just opened, Joshue108
16:28:19 <MichaelC> zakim, close this item
16:28:19 <Zakim> agendum 4 closed
16:28:20 <Zakim> I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:
16:28:20 <Zakim> 5. Review open issues and actions http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/track/actions/open [from Joshue108]
16:28:21 <MichaelC> zakim, next item
16:28:21 <Zakim> agendum 5. "Review open issues and actions http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/track/actions/open" taken up [from Joshue108]
16:28:23 <Zakim> -James_Nurthen
16:28:29 <MichaelC> ack me
16:28:30 <Joshue108> zakim, take up item 4
16:28:30 <Zakim> agendum 4. "Alistair's technique - https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Creating_a_conforming_alternate_version_for_a_web_page_designed_with_progressive_enhancement" taken up [from
16:28:33 <Zakim> ... Joshue108]
16:28:51 <Mike_Elledge> AK: Review open actions and issues. Please review your open actions and issues.
16:28:53 <Joshue108> ack me
16:28:57 <AWK> Final request - review actions: https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/track/actions/open
16:29:18 <Mike_Elledge> BB: Alistairs technique status?
16:30:07 <Mike_Elledge> AK: New link and modifications to it. Since July have wanted to discuss when he is on call, he's here, but had to address pressing matters of revisions to techniques.
16:30:21 <Zakim> -Joshue
16:30:23 <Zakim> -Katie_Haritos-Shea
16:30:23 <Zakim> -Loretta
16:30:25 <Zakim> -Michael_Cooper
16:30:25 <Zakim> -AWK
16:30:26 <Zakim> -jon_avila
16:30:26 <Zakim> -alistair
16:30:26 <Zakim> -Marc_Johlic
16:30:26 <Zakim> -Brent_Shiver
16:30:27 <Zakim> -Kathy_Wahlbin
16:30:30 <Zakim> -Bruce_Bailey
16:30:33 <Mike_Elledge> JO: Thanks Alistair for patience.
16:30:34 <Zakim> -cstrobbe
16:30:35 <Zakim> -Kenny
16:32:15 <AWK> trackbot, end meeting
16:32:15 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
16:32:15 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Joshue, AWK, Michael_Cooper, Bruce_Bailey, Marc_Johlic, Loretta, Kathy_Wahlbin, cstrobbe, +1.512.276.aaaa, jon_avila, Brent_Shiver,
16:32:18 <Zakim> ... Mike_Elledge, Kenny, Katie_Haritos-Shea, James_Nurthen, Cooper, alistair
16:32:23 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
16:32:23 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/08/26-wai-wcag-minutes.html trackbot
16:32:24 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
16:32:24 <RRSAgent> I see no action items