18:51:25 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aapi
18:51:25 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/08/26-aapi-irc
18:51:27 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs member
18:51:27 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #aapi
18:51:29 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAI_PF
18:51:29 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see WAI_PFWG(AAPI)3:00PM scheduled to start in 9 minutes
18:51:30 <trackbot> Meeting: Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference
18:51:30 <trackbot> Date: 26 August 2014
18:52:21 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'stop log', clown.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
18:54:38 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/08/26-aapi-minutes.html clown
18:54:56 <clown> chair:  Joseph_Scheuhammer
18:54:59 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/08/26-aapi-minutes.html clown
18:55:12 <joanie> clown: both :)
18:55:25 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'pause', clown.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
19:04:37 <clown> zakim, who is noisy?
19:04:47 <Zakim> clown, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Joseph_Scheuhammer (33%), Joanmarie_Diggs (39%)
19:05:04 <Zakim> +Bryan_Garaventa
19:05:38 <clown> agenda: this
19:05:50 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-1199: (All) Browsers SHOULD note errors on console for missing required attributes -- review edits.
19:06:03 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-980: (David) Define mappings for managed aria related states.
19:06:05 <richardschwerdtfeger> richardschwerdtfeger has joined #aapi
19:06:20 <clown> agenda+ ISSUE-671/ACTION-1492: (David) Mapping of aria-invalid should be as tokens, not as strings. (see: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2014Jul/0081.html)
19:06:27 <Zakim> +Rich_Schwerdtfeger
19:06:32 <clown> agenda+ ISSUE-514/ACTION-1341: (All) Spec says that aria-required is propagated to descendants in grid/treegrid.  Verbiage needed in Core-AAM?
19:06:42 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-1396: (All) Role grid maps to table role in AAPIs; need to also convey it is an interactive grid.
19:06:43 <Zakim> -Joseph_Scheuhammer
19:07:11 <bgaraventa1979> bgaraventa1979 has joined #aapi
19:07:17 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-1409: (Joanie) Progress on ATK API for position, level, etc.
19:07:28 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-1311: (Joseph) Clarify that presentation role should preserve separation of nodes within tables/lists.
19:07:34 <bgaraventa1979> zakim, aaaa is Bryan_Garaventa
19:07:34 <Zakim> sorry, bgaraventa1979, I do not recognize a party named 'aaaa'
19:07:37 <clown> agenda+ ISSUE-674/ISSUE-522/ACTION-1471: (Cynthia, Joseph) Name computation.
19:07:45 <clown> agenda+ Processing issues/actions:https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/products/23
19:07:51 <clown> agenda+ be done.
19:07:53 <bgaraventa1979> zakim, I am Bryan_Garaventa
19:07:53 <Zakim> ok, bgaraventa1979, I now associate you with Bryan_Garaventa
19:08:12 <joanie> Zakim, I am Joanmarie_Diggs
19:08:12 <Zakim> ok, joanie, I now associate you with Joanmarie_Diggs
19:08:20 <Zakim> +[GVoice]
19:08:30 <joanie> Scribenick: joanie
19:08:31 <clown> zakim, GVoice is Joseph_Scheuhammer
19:08:31 <Zakim> +Joseph_Scheuhammer; got it
19:08:42 <clown> zakim, I am Joseph_Scheuhamer
19:08:42 <Zakim> sorry, clown, I do not see a party named 'Joseph_Scheuhamer'
19:08:58 <joanie> regrets: David_Bolter
19:09:07 <joanie> regrets: Cynthia_Shelly
19:09:08 <clown> zakim, I am Joseph_Scheuhmmaer
19:09:08 <Zakim> sorry, clown, I do not see a party named 'Joseph_Scheuhmmaer'
19:09:17 <clown> zakim, I am Joseph_Scheuhammer
19:09:17 <Zakim> ok, clown, I now associate you with Joseph_Scheuhammer
19:10:15 <joanie> Zakim, take up item 1
19:10:15 <Zakim> agendum 1. "ACTION-1199: (All) Browsers SHOULD note errors on console for missing required attributes -- review edits." taken up [from clown]
19:10:22 <clown> action-1199?
19:10:22 <trackbot> action-1199 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to Draft UAIG requirement (MAY in 1.0, SHOULD in 1.1?) for UAs to throw errors in the console when required attributes are missing. -- due 2014-05-01 -- PENDINGREVIEW
19:10:22 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1199
19:10:34 <joanie> JS: This is for David, who is not here.
19:10:49 <joanie> JS: There is a statement in the author errors section of the core mapping document:
19:10:55 <clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/implementation/aria-implementation.html#document-handling_author-errors
19:11:04 <joanie> JS: I know Cynthia is ok with this change.
19:11:31 <joanie> JS: There is a sentence now that user agents SHOULD report these errors by console. It used to be a MAY.
19:11:52 <joanie> JS: I am now waiting for Mozilla to say yea or nay, and give me a reason why if it is a nay.
19:12:04 <joanie> RS: Why do we care about reporting errors in the console?
19:12:22 <joanie> JS: The original request/discussion at a face-to-face 2 years ago, maybe.
19:12:40 <joanie> JS: The request was that the browser should make errors more clear.
19:12:52 <joanie> RS: There are system settings that drive things like show sounds.
19:13:09 <joanie> RS: If you have an alert, you can have it drive sounds.
19:13:49 <joanie> JS: Clarifies that this is about authoring errors.
19:14:03 <joanie> JS: But popping up an alert would impact end users.
19:14:19 <joanie> JS: So the agreement was to have a MAY for console errors.
19:14:41 <joanie> JS: But at the same meeting there was agreement to make it a SHOULD for ARIA 1.1.
19:14:59 <clown> <span role="checkbox">…</span>
19:15:53 <joanie> RS: Agrees emphatically that an alert would be inappropriate.
19:16:22 <joanie> RS: Alert is NOT meant for validation.
19:16:42 <joanie> JS: That is what we agreed at the face-to-face. And we suggested as an alternative, how about the error console?
19:16:55 <joanie> RS: I wouldn't even suggest that.
19:17:40 <joanie> RS: If someone is writing a validator for accessible content, these errors should be flagged in a console. The browser doesn't have to do anything for that.
19:17:49 <joanie> JS: Right, because you have a special tool.
19:18:03 <joanie> RS: Jon Gunderson does the same thing in his validator tool.
19:18:15 <joanie> JS: Personally, there is where I think this sort of thing belongs.
19:18:22 <joanie> RS: Agreed. Definitely.
19:18:42 <joanie> RS: I think the entire statement should be removed (i.e. as opposed to even being left as a MAY)
19:18:53 <joanie> RS: If no one is going to do it, what is the point?
19:19:10 <joanie> JS: Cynthia is ok with this change.
19:19:23 <joanie> JD: I don't have a strong opinion as long as authors find their errors.
19:19:41 <joanie> RS: Yes, they can use (existing) tools to do this.
19:19:56 <joanie> RS: To really make this work, a browser would need to build in a full accessibility checker.
19:20:30 <joanie> JS: At the moment, the browser is going to handle the error and set the default value to False. So the browser is already handling it.
19:20:47 <joanie> JS: So to play devil's advocate, why not have the browser log an error to console.
19:21:03 <joanie> RS: I would take it out, but I don't have a strong opinion either way.
19:24:47 <richardschwerdtfeger> Rich Proposal: Remove the text that suggests that a browser may, should, or must notify the user through console of missing required ARIA attributes.
19:24:52 <Zakim> + +1.603.493.aaaa
19:25:17 <richardschwerdtfeger> +1
19:25:18 <clown> scribenick:  clown
19:25:19 <Zakim> - +1.603.493.aaaa
19:25:23 <bgaraventa1979> +1
19:25:28 <clown> +1
19:26:26 <Zakim> -Joanmarie_Diggs
19:27:55 <clown> JS:  I've added a note to remove the statement from the spec, and reopend the action.
19:27:55 <Zakim> + +1.603.493.aabb
19:28:09 <clown> RS:  I'll make a resolution.
19:28:26 <richardschwerdtfeger> RESOLUTION: remove the text pertaining to console notification in action 1199
19:29:16 <clown> zakim, aabb is Joanmarie_Diggs
19:29:16 <Zakim> +Joanmarie_Diggs; got it
19:30:00 <joanie> +1
19:30:12 <clown> scribenick: joanie
19:30:20 <joanie> Zakim, take up next item
19:30:20 <Zakim> agendum 2. "ACTION-980: (David) Define mappings for managed aria related states." taken up [from clown]
19:30:39 <clown> action-980?
19:30:39 <trackbot> action-980 -- David Bolter to Define mappings for managed aria related states: aria-setsize, aria-posinset, arla-level, focused, focusable with reference to section 5.5 bullet 1 of the UAIG. -- due 2014-08-22 -- OPEN
19:30:39 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/980
19:30:43 <joanie> JS: David is not here. I wanted to get an update on how he is progressing. It was due last week.
19:30:49 <joanie> JS: Let's skip it until he is here.
19:30:54 <joanie> Zakim, take up next item
19:30:54 <Zakim> agendum 2 was just opened, joanie
19:31:02 <joanie> Zakim, take up item 3
19:31:02 <Zakim> agendum 3. "ISSUE-671/ACTION-1492: (David) Mapping of aria-invalid should be as tokens, not as strings. (see: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2014Jul/0081.html)"
19:31:05 <Zakim> ... taken up [from clown]
19:31:18 <joanie> JS: My proposal is... There's a link at the end of that agendum.
19:31:57 <joanie> RS: So predefined tokens. I don't see why that's a problem.
19:32:13 <joanie> JS: The current mapping guide states just copy the unknown value in.
19:32:21 <joanie> JS: A better way to do it is just set it to False.
19:32:29 <joanie> RS: I think that's probably correct.
19:32:38 <joanie> JS: Plus UIA sets it to false.
19:32:52 <joanie> RS: I think it's better to do that. Do we need to file any defects against browsers?
19:33:00 <joanie> JS: Probably do.
19:33:17 <joanie> JS: James Craig said "looks good to me", so Apple seems to be on board.
19:33:37 <joanie> JS: I will make these changes then and mark the action as pending review to given everyone one last chance to agree or disagree.
19:34:21 <joanie> Zakim, take up next item
19:34:21 <Zakim> agendum 2. "ACTION-980: (David) Define mappings for managed aria related states." taken up [from clown]
19:34:29 <joanie> Zakim, take up item 4
19:34:29 <Zakim> agendum 4. "ISSUE-514/ACTION-1341: (All) Spec says that aria-required is propagated to descendants in grid/treegrid.  Verbiage needed in Core-AAM?" taken up [from clown]
19:34:47 <clown> action-1341?
19:34:47 <trackbot> action-1341 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to Patch issue-514: treegrid and grid propagation requirement should be normative. -- due 2014-01-30 -- PENDINGREVIEW
19:34:47 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1341
19:35:08 <joanie> JS: This is something that James changed in the spec and then assigned the action to me to see if anything needs to be changed in the mapping document.
19:35:31 <joanie> JS: (Reads what the spec now states re propagation)
19:35:41 <joanie> JS: This is aria-readonly.
19:35:42 <Zakim> -Joseph_Scheuhammer
19:36:13 <Zakim> +[GVoice]
19:36:26 <clown> zakim, GVoice is Joseph_Scheuhammmer
19:36:26 <Zakim> +Joseph_Scheuhammmer; got it
19:36:31 <joanie> RS: So is just for the cells, or also the rows?
19:36:39 <clown> zakim, I am Joseph_Scheuhammer
19:36:39 <Zakim> sorry, clown, I do not see a party named 'Joseph_Scheuhammer'
19:36:40 <joanie> JS: Do rows have a read-only property?
19:37:15 <joanie> RS: It doesn't have it here for inherited states and properties.
19:38:00 <joanie> RS: I don't see readonly on a grid cell. That's a bug.
19:38:07 <richardschwerdtfeger> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-1.1/roles#gridcell
19:38:10 <clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/spec/aria.html#gridcell
19:38:12 <joanie> JS: It's in the editor's draft.
19:38:25 <joanie> RS: I'm looking at ARIA 1.1 document.
19:39:00 <joanie> JS: It's not there under row.
19:39:19 <joanie> RS: So it's inherited down to the grid cells? And we say that in the spec? Let's verify.
19:39:55 <joanie> JS: Yes, it's in the grid role.
19:40:21 <clown> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1341
19:41:09 <joanie> (Some discussion about the current wording)
19:41:13 <joanie> JS: We can send it back to him with our questions about the wording.
19:41:32 <joanie> s/back to him/back to James Craig/
19:43:06 <clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/implementation/aria-implementation.html#role-map-grid
19:43:37 <joanie> JS: The above is the mapping of grid. Do we want to put somewhere in there that if grid is readonly that propagates down to the grid cells?
19:47:59 <richardschwerdtfeger> Rich Proposal: aria-readonly=“true” For elements with role=“gridcell” and no aria-readonly property the gridcell must inherit any author applied aria-readonly=“true” property from the containing grid or treegrid.
19:48:21 <richardschwerdtfeger> +1
19:48:27 <clown> +1
19:48:39 <bgaraventa1979> +1
19:49:10 <richardschwerdtfeger> joanie verbally stated +1 due to connectivity problems
19:49:25 <richardschwerdtfeger> RESOLUTION: Adopt Rich’s proposal in action 1341
19:49:45 <richardschwerdtfeger> scribenick: richardschwerdtfeger
19:50:51 <richardschwerdtfeger> zakim takeup next item
19:51:00 <richardschwerdtfeger> zakim, takeup next item
19:51:00 <Zakim> I don't understand 'takeup next item', richardschwerdtfeger
19:51:23 <richardschwerdtfeger> agenda?
19:51:35 <clown> zakim, take up item 5
19:51:35 <Zakim> agendum 5. "ACTION-1396: (All) Role grid maps to table role in AAPIs; need to also convey it is an interactive grid." taken up [from clown]
19:51:50 <clown> action-1396?
19:51:50 <trackbot> action-1396 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to Modify uaig to convey grid role in accessibility mappings, beyond table. (atk/atspi/ ia2 xml-role=grid, macosx: roledescription: grid, msaa/uiaexpress localizedcontroltype="grid"?) -- due 2014-08-26 -- OPEN
19:51:51 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1396
19:52:40 <joanie> joanie has joined #aapi
19:53:06 <clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/implementation/aria-implementation.html#role-map-grid
19:54:06 <clown> action-1396?
19:54:06 <trackbot> action-1396 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to Modify uaig to convey grid role in accessibility mappings, beyond table. (atk/atspi/ ia2 xml-role=grid, macosx: roledescription: grid, msaa/uiaexpress localizedcontroltype="grid"?) -- due 2014-08-26 -- OPEN
19:54:07 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1396
19:54:44 <richardschwerdtfeger> clown: The text of the action item says: “Modify uaig to convey grid role in accessibility mappings, beyond table. (atk/atspi/ ia2 xml-role=grid, macosx: roledescription: grid, msaa/uiaexpress localizedcontroltype="grid"?)"
19:56:36 <richardschwerdtfeger> rich: You should speak with cynthia
19:57:07 <richardschwerdtfeger> clown: a grid is like a spreadsheet. a treegrid is like a time table for a train
19:57:39 <richardschwerdtfeger> clown: treegrids allow cells to expand/collapse rows from a gridcell
19:58:15 <richardschwerdtfeger> s/treegrid/table/
19:58:36 <clown> s/a treegrid is like/a table is like/
19:58:56 <richardschwerdtfeger> clown: a table is static
20:00:34 <richardschwerdtfeger> rich: correct macox as James minuted that call but check with Cynthia
20:00:49 <richardschwerdtfeger> zakim, make log public
20:00:49 <Zakim> I don't understand 'make log public', richardschwerdtfeger
20:00:58 <richardschwerdtfeger> zakim, bye
20:00:58 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees were Joseph_Scheuhammer, Joanmarie_Diggs, Bryan_Garaventa, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, +1.603.493.aaaa, +1.603.493.aabb, Joseph_Scheuhammmer
20:00:58 <Zakim> Zakim has left #aapi
20:01:04 <richardschwerdtfeger> zakim, make minutes
20:01:22 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'make mintues', clown.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
20:01:23 <richardschwerdtfeger> RRSAgent, make minutes
20:01:23 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/08/26-aapi-minutes.html richardschwerdtfeger
20:04:44 <joanie> RRSAgent, stop